Why its important to keep the Sabbath

[GerhardEbersoehn]

James was not reiterating keeping the Ten Commandments, but a more powerful law, the law of Liberty (verse 12)

What have you been doing here? Haven't you 'reiterated' James? - put him in brackets <(verse 12)>?
You did. So how can you tell Phoneman777 <James was not reiterating keeping the Ten Commandments, but a more powerful law, the law of Liberty (verse 12)>?
Phoneman777 does exactly what you are doing, showing how James reiterates the Ten Commandments, but with a more powerful perspective and emphasis, showing HOW the Ten Commandments law, is a more powerful law... is "the law of Liberty".

Phoneman777 joined the chorus of David-Delighters in the Law of God. 1stCenturyLady conducts the chorus of the sceptics about the Law of God.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Not fate, because only the outcome is predetermined.....neither the circumstances nor the people are predestined in God's original purpose.

Yours is a pitiful viewpoint. Heed the following ... and you may be much happier with the <outcome>

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Mosaic Law = "carnal commandment" (Hebrews 7:16 KJV)
Tenth Commandment is "holy" (Romans 7:12 KJV)
The same law can't be simultaneously "holy" and "carnal".

Depends on what meanings one attaches to the words. 'carnal' - originally and strictly, 'flesh', tissue of flesh and blood. The children of God ever, live carnal lives and never, without carnal bodies, but dedicated and devoted to the Lord, simultaneously carnal and holy.

Now Hebrews does not use <Mosaic Law> even though the SACRIFICIAL laws it refers to were <Mosaic Law> but Law or laws GOD gave to Moses to give to the Israelites specifically and from the nature of these being fleshly and bloody laws from their very nature would come to an end with the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ's body and life. Therefore though carnal those Mosaic laws or Law were received from God and were conceived in the mind of God from before God made the world, and were <holy> having been reserved for a special time and use, temporarily.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

assure you, the Ten commandments existed long before Moses and will last for all eternity...unless you're willing to argue we can ignore "thou shalt have no other gods before Me" as freely as we can ignore circumcision and Passover attendance...right or wrong?

All you do here, is, to throw the dye of _your_ legalism into the pure water of the doctrine of _God's_ <Mosaic law>, so as to murky it up that the inattentive won't see any difference between <circumcision and Passover attendance> and truly <carnal> law of the sort of your own legalism. Simply put, this here is a pool of muddied water no spot on the battlefields of Ukraine could match.

 

[Phoneman777]

I know you don't understand. We are too close to the end to cause you to question what you are doing, as whatever is not from faith is sin. Just know that I don't need a written law telling me to not murder someone. It is just not in my cleansed nature to murder someone. Understand? Instead I will love them.

I understand perfectly well that people who argue Christians don't have to keep the Ten Commandments but won't publicly declare which ones we're allowed to break are guilty of "talking out of both sides of their mouth".

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I understand perfectly well that people who argue Christians don't have to keep the Ten Commandments but won't publicly declare which ones we're allowed to break are guilty of "talking out of both sides of their mouth".

What you asked me about which commandments are we to follow, we are to keep the Spirit of all of them, plus one more. So how do you keep the Sabbath WITHOUT keeping the letter of the law which kills and of the flesh, not by the Spirit. What is the spirit of keeping the Sabbath?

Your answer before was we keep the spirit of the Sabbath by keeping the letter of the law. That should tell you something profound.

Romans 7:5-6
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Here's a hint: not being in the flesh but the Spirit should tell you that the answer is not by the flesh. Keeping one physical day is of the flesh. So keeping Saturday or Sunday is NOT the answer.

P777, the Ten Commandments was the covenant that in 2 Cor. 3 was passing away. Ex. 34:28
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

 

[Grailhunter]

I understand perfectly well that people who argue Christians don't have to keep the Ten Commandments but won't publicly declare which ones we're allowed to break are guilty of

I think a few people have explained this to you at the level that a 6 year old could understand.

Christians do not break any of the ten summaries of the Mosaic Law because none of it pertains to Christians…period.

Christians cannot break any of the ten summaries of the Mosaic Law because none of it pertains to Christians…period. So to answer your question….Christians do not, cannot break any of the ten summaries because they do not pertain to Christians.

Why? Because Laws as a concept do not exist in Christianity. As in breaking a law is a transgression against Yahweh….And there was no forgiveness for breaking those Laws.... For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Hebrews 10:4

For Christians sins are between us and Christ and Christ forgive us of our sins…. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1st John 1:9

The summaries are the basic morals of the Mosaic Laws, reiterated in full in the body of the Mosaic Laws….It stands to reason and no surprise that basic morals are going to be included in the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. Even if the Old Testament did not exist…would Christians commit adultery or murder or steal or worship idols or not be respectful of their fathers or mothers or be disrespectful to God’s name….and even if we do violate any of these it is between us and Christ not between us and God the Father. No Laws come forward into Christianity, because we are not Jews, we are not of the Old Covenant.

And Christianity has no concern with engraved images. And of course Christianity has no concern with engraved images. Or worshipping Yahweh Almighty and Yeshua the Son and Savior and the Holy Spirit our faith guide and strengthener.

Christ and the Apostles observed the Mosaic Law during Christ’s ministry but after the resurrection there is no requirement to observe any Old Covenant Laws or Commandments. Christians observe the Lord’s Day on Sunday. The council in Jerusalem that Paul attended did not include the requirement to observe the Jewish Saturday Sabbath….Paul said, Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. Colossians 2:16. Early Christian writings confirm that Christians were to observe the Lord’s Day and denounced any attempt for people to observe the Jewish Saturday Sabbath.

This is pretty simple stuff....

 

[quietthinker]

Why its important to keep the Sabbath​

Could we parallel it with not taking the Lord's name in vain ie, misrepresenting God's character?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Why its important to keep the Sabbath​

Could we parallel it with not taking the Lord's name in vain ie, misrepresenting God's character?

How would you answer these scriptures.

Romans 7:5-6
For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

How would you obey the highlighted part at the end regarding the 4th commandment?

 

[Duck Muscles]

I disagree with that…..prophesy is God being omniscient, and “knowing the end from the beginning”….it’s not that he predetermines anything but the outworking of his original purpose….he simply foretells what will take place because he already knows how it will turn out.

He will adjust his decisions and his actions along the way if that is necessary to achieve his end goal, but his original purpose for mankind on this earth will go ahead….with us or without us…..because that is our choice...to serve the true God or to do the bidding of the false god who took his place as the ruler of this world. (2 Cor 4:4; Luke 4:5-6) Why else would Jesus tell us to be no part of it?
How many of the threads on these forums are about worldly politics….as if God was siding with one political party or the other? Both sides are creations of the devil….we have no say in anything they do. (John 17:16)

The only thing that was predetermined at creation was the end result…..a closing of the 7th day with its final declaration that “everything is very good”…..because the 7th day has no declaration like all the other creative “days” that will indicates that it is finished to God’s satisfaction, we can conclude that it will end successfully in the future, as it must…..God has no failures. (Isa 55:11)

I don't see how that negates predestination.

Prophecy is God foretelling how things will work out? As though God has nothing to do with this?

 

[quietthinker]

How would you answer these scriptures.

Romans 7:5-6
For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

How would you obey the highlighted part at the end regarding the 4th commandment?

We honour God not because he demands it but because we admire him.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

We honour God not because he demands it but because we admire him.

Fine. How do you honor God by the Spirit, and not the letter?

 

[quietthinker]

Fine. How do you honor God by the Spirit, and not the letter?

Revelation 14:12

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.​

 

[Aunty Jane]

I don't see how that negates predestination.

Prophecy is God foretelling how things will work out? As though God has nothing to do with this?

No, God predetermines how something will end from when he starts....

Isa 46:10....
"From the beginning I foretell the outcome,
And from long ago the things that have not yet been done.
the One saying, ‘My own counsel will stand,
and everything that is my delight I shall do.’”

Isa 55:11
"So my word that goes out of my mouth will be.
It will not return to me without results,
But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight,
And it will have sure success in what I send it to do."

By foretelling the outcome, Jehovah does not determine HOW it will be achieved...only THAT it will be achieved as his will dictates.

 

[Phoneman777]

Depends on what meanings one attaches to the words. 'carnal' - originally and strictly, 'flesh', tissue of flesh and blood. The children of God ever, live carnal lives and never, without carnal bodies, but dedicated and devoted to the Lord, simultaneously carnal and holy.

We ain't talking about carnal "bodies".

The Mosaic Law of the Levitical priesthood was a "carnal commandment TYPE" which pointed to the "holy ANTITYPE": Jesus' High Priest ministry of intercession.

A blind man can see that the same law can't be "carnal" and "holy".

Now Hebrews does not use <Mosaic Law> even though the SACRIFICIAL laws it refers to were <Mosaic Law> but Law or laws GOD gave to Moses to give to the Israelites specifically and from the nature of these being fleshly and bloody laws from their very nature would come to an end with the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ's body and life. Therefore though carnal those Mosaic laws or Law were received from God and were conceived in the mind of God from before God made the world, and were <holy> having been reserved for a special time and use, temporarily.

And exactly how does any of that change the fact that the same law can't be "holy" and "carnal" at the same time?

 

[Phoneman777]

All you do here, is, to throw the dye of _your_ legalism into the pure water of the doctrine of _God's_ <Mosaic law>, so as to murky it up that the inattentive won't see any difference between <circumcision and Passover attendance> and truly <carnal> law of the sort of your own legalism. Simply put, this here is a pool of muddied water no spot on the battlefields of Ukraine could match.

Nobody said anything about salvation being obtained by keeping the law.

Look, if Christians don't have to keep the Ten Commandments, either tell us which ones we're allowed to break or answer to God in the Judgment for the sin of making the Bible contradict itself.

 

[Phoneman777]

What you asked me about which commandments are we to follow, we are to keep the Spirit of all of them, plus one more. So how do you keep the Sabbath WITHOUT keeping the letter of the law which kills and of the flesh, not by the Spirit. What is the spirit of keeping the Sabbath?

Your answer before was we keep the spirit of the Sabbath by keeping the letter of the law. That should tell you something profound.

Romans 7:5-6
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Here's a hint: not being in the flesh but the Spirit should tell you that the answer is not by the flesh. Keeping one physical day is of the flesh. So keeping Saturday or Sunday is NOT the answer.

P777, the Ten Commandments was the covenant that in 2 Cor. 3 was passing away. Ex. 34:28
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

The Spirit of the 4th commandment is rest in Jesus and the letter of it is literal rest every 7th day from our work "as God did from His" - just as the Spirit of the 7th commandment is to not lust and the letter of it is to not commit adultery.

If it's unacceptable to ignore the letter of the 7th commandment, what leads people to think they can ignore the letter of the 4th?

It's the unconverted heart inside them, that's what.

 

[quietthinker]

No, God predetermines how something will end from when he starts....

Isa 46:10....
"From the beginning I foretell the outcome,
And from long ago the things that have not yet been done.
the One saying, ‘My own counsel will stand,
and everything that is my delight I shall do.’”

Isa 55:11
"So my word that goes out of my mouth will be.
It will not return to me without results,
But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight,
And it will have sure success in what I send it to do."

By foretelling the outcome, Jehovah does not determine HOW it will be achieved...only THAT it will be achieved as his will dictates.

Foreknowledge does not determine as you said HOW things will be achieved but it also does not make the one who foretells, the causative agent.

I can predict you'll be dead in 50 yrs and be accurate. It does not mean I caused your death.

 

[Phoneman777]

I think a few people have explained this to you at the level that a 6 year old could understand.

Anyone who claims the Christian doesn't have to keep the Ten Commandments but isn't allowed to break them isn't qualified to teach a six year old how to color in the lines, let alone grown ups the Bible.

Christians do not break any of the ten summaries of the Mosaic Law because none of it pertains to Christians…period.

Ten "summaries"? The Ten COMMANDMENTS are separate and distinct from the Mosaic Law, which is why murder continues to be wrong but sporting a foreskin is alright.

Christians cannot break any of the ten summaries of the Mosaic Law because none of it pertains to Christians…period. So to answer your question….Christians do not, cannot break any of the ten summaries because they do not pertain to Christians.

"If thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law". 30 years after the Cross, James says if the Christian murders, he becomes a transgressor.

Why? Because Laws as a concept do not exist in Christianity. As in breaking a law is a transgression against Yahweh….And there was no forgiveness for breaking those Laws.... For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Hebrews 10:4

The fact that every single one of the Ten Commandments - including the 4th - is said to the church in the NT speaks for itself.

The summaries are the basic morals of the Mosaic Laws

Wow, the Ten Commandments were around thousands of years before Moses, but are somehow "based on the law of Moses"?

You do realize that Satan "coveted" the throne of God - a violation of the 10th - before the war in heaven even got started, right?

No Laws come forward into Christianity, because we are not Jews, we are not of the Old Covenant.

So, which of the Ten Commandments are we allowed to violate?

And Christianity has no concern with engraved images. And of course Christianity has no concern with engraved images.

Then why did John warn us to "keep yourselves from idols" if that doesn't concern us?

Christ and the Apostles observed the Mosaic Law during Christ’s ministry but after the resurrection there is no requirement to observe any Old Covenant Laws or Commandments. Christians observe the Lord’s Day on Sunday. The council in Jerusalem that Paul attended did not include the requirement to observe the Jewish Saturday Sabbath….Paul said, Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. Colossians 2:16. Early Christian writings confirm that Christians were to observe the Lord’s Day and denounced any attempt for people to observe the Jewish Saturday Sabbath.

This is pretty simple stuff....

Simple? There's never been a more convoluted way of interpreting Scripture! You guys know full well if
Ten Commandments said "1st day" y'all would be their fiercest champions for them, but since the 4th commandment says "7th day" - people find ever increasingly disingenuous methods of "making the law of God of none effect" and "in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men".

If the Christian isn't obligated to keep the Ten Commandments, which of them are we at liberty to break?

 

[quietthinker]

Anyone who claims the Christian doesn't have to keep the Ten Commandments but isn't allowed to break them isn't qualified to teach a six year old how to color in the lines, let alone grown ups the Bible.

Ten "summaries"? The Ten COMMANDMENTS are separate and distinct from the Mosaic Law, which is why murder continues to be wrong but sporting a foreskin is alright.

"If thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law". 30 years after the Cross, James says if the Christian murders, he becomes a transgressor.

The fact that every single one of the Ten Commandments - including the 4th - is said to the church in the NT speaks for itself.

Wow, the Ten Commandments were around thousands of years before Moses, but are somehow "based on the law of Moses"?

You do realize that Satan "coveted" the throne of God - a violation of the 10th - before the war in heaven even got started, right?

So, which of the Ten Commandments are we allowed to violate?

Then why did John warn us to "keep yourselves from idols" if that doesn't concern us?

Simple? There's never been a more convoluted way of interpreting Scripture! You guys know full well if
Ten Commandments said "1st day" y'all would be their fiercest champions for them, but since the 4th commandment says "7th day" - people find ever increasingly disingenuous methods of "making the law of God of none effect" and "in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men".

If the Christian isn't obligated to keep the Ten Commandments, which of them are we at liberty to break?

Those who have their hearts set on disobedience will disobey, enamouring themselves with tickling theories.