Deconstruction Part 2: Into Apostolicity

[Michiah-Imla]

 

[Episkopos]

Romans 5:8-10 (NIV):

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"
1 Corinthians 1:18 (NIV):

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."
Galatians 6:14 (NIV):

"May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world."
Colossians 2:13-15 (NIV):

"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross."
Hebrews 12:2 (NIV):

"Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."
These scriptures underscore various dimensions of the cross's significance, including its role in atonement, reconciliation, salvation, and triumph over sin and death. They emphasize the centrality of the cross in Christian faith and highlight its transformative power for believers.

Hebrews 10:10 (NIV):

"And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
1 Peter 1:18-19 (NIV):

"For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect."
Ephesians 5:25-27 (NIV):

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless."
Titus 2:14 (NIV):

"who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good."
These scriptures illustrate that through Jesus Christ's sacrificial death and resurrection, believers are sanctified, redeemed, and made holy. The process of sanctification involves being set apart for God's purposes and transformed into the likeness of Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit. Thus, Jesus' death and resurrection are integral to the sanctification of believers and the formation of a redeemed and holy people for God.

Beginning to see a pattern here-and I ask again, which Bible is your preferred translation?

No translation in particular. I compare text with texts...for the OT I use the Hebrew Masoretic...the Septuagint....and the DSS. I of course also read English (KJV and NAS) and the French bible (Louis Segond and version la Colombe). I am not well versed in Greek. However I have learned the difference between prepositions...which gives direction to the text. The Epi, Pro, Eis, ...these are translated willy-nilly to make the bible message feel as generic and universal (wide road) as possible. Sell, sell, sell. It's about popularity not truth for translations. Think about it. If the bible was translated properly it would not be a best-seller, but rather be delegated to obscurity.

An example is....For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes INTO (eis) Him should not perish but have eternal life.

You will NEVER read a bible translation that accurately depicts the intended message at its proper depth. Even the eating Jesus' body and drinking His blood is accepted because the RC church decided that only means taking communion. Also many words were taken out...like "Jesus" Barabbas. The "Jesus" part was left out as it sounded too much like Jesus Christ. Who decided these things? Religious clerics...Who decided that Jesus needed to die? Religious clerics. Coincidence?

Are we doing God a favour by mis-translating the bible into something that provides a greater audience??? This could have been why the RC church didn't want the bible to be translated into a language that was common to the people.

A seeker will always win out in the end, regardless. All things work together for good to those who love God and diligently seek Him.

 

[Episkopos]

You cant be "sanctified" until ALL your sins are forgiven., and you stated that the "Cross is not about forgiveness of sin"..

A.) You sins are only forgiven by the Sacrifice of Jesus's BLOOD and DEATH... for YOUR sin, (The Cross of Christ)... which you denied when you kept on saying that ..

= ""The Cross is NOT about forgiveness of sin"..

Trying to change that now.. trying to do "damage control" to try to Hide what you actually TEACH........ isn't going to work out well for you. @Episkopos

Nonsense coming from your own mind. You have no biblical evidence apart from whatever has been mistranslated from the Greek to make it more popular. And it seems to have worked.

Where do you get your ideas from? "You can't be "sanctified" until all your sins are forgiven?" What commentaries do you follow?

 

[Behold]

An example is. For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes INTO Him

That is a false teaching. @Episkopos

Why?

Because that is teaching that the BELIEVING is putting the believer : ""into Christ.""

And that does not Happen.
That is just as untruthful as teaching that water baptism puts you into Christ.

So, neither Believing, nor WATER... puts you "INTO CHRIST".

Who does?

The HOLY SPIRIT, = births the BELIEVER, as "born again".. .into Christ..

 

[Behold]

Nonsense coming from your own mind.

The Cross of Christ is not "nonsense"......... tho you once told me that Christ on The Cross is my "Whipping boy".

Remember?

So, your anti-Cross point of view, regarding "the Cross is not about Forgiveness", is blazing brightly, and how can it not.

Its your ministry.

 

[Episkopos]

That is a false teaching. @Episkopos

Why?

Because that is teaching that the BELIEVING is putting the believer : ""into Christ.""

And that does not Happen.
That is just as untruthful as teaching that water baptism puts you into Christ.

So, neither Believing, nor WATER... puts you "INTO CHRIST".

Who does?

The HOLY SPIRIT, = births the BELIEVER, as "born again".. .into Christ..

Nonsense argument...just a jumble of statements that have no cohesion...as usual. Normally I would let you rant on without any response.

But to others who want to see how the bible SHOULD be translated. There are key passages that help us understand the bible. The bible helps us translate words by comparison.

Key verse that shows that "eis" is about location.

"I have come as a light into (eis) the world, that whoever believes.... in? .....(actually this is the same word eis...or into) Me should not abide in darkness." John 12:46

This is a right balance...using the same comparitive word eis (into) repeated twice in the same sentence the same way...equal weights and measures.

A false balance is abomination with God.

 

[Behold]

Nonsense argument...just a jumble of statements that have no cohesion.

You stated that "The Cross of Christ is not about Forgiveness"..

You'll get away with that on this forum for some reason, but, on most of the others, even the worst "Calvinistic forums".... you wont say it twice, much less half a dozen times, or more....and be allowed to keep on doing it.

So, what you are stating...... is not an argument, its a literal and purposed rejection of The Cross., and you enjoy it.

Did you want to try it again? ?

 

[Wrangler]

these fundamentals as you call them, don't stand up under any serious scrutiny.

It's amazing the things one reads on the internet.

expedients that cater to the flesh and stop people from doing the will of God. Instead they cause religious certainties rather than the fear of the Lord...religious pride rather than humility...going the opposite way from the path of life.

Asserting different fundamentals.

 

[Johann]

No translation in particular. I compare text with texts...for the OT I use the Hebrew Masoretic...the Septuagint....and the DSS. I of course also read English (KJV and NAS) and the French bible (Louis Segond and version la Colombe). I am not well versed in Greek. However I have learned the difference between prepositions...which gives direction to the text. The Epi, Pro, Eis, ...these are translated willy-nilly to make the bible message feel as generic and universal (wide road) as possible. Sell, sell, sell. It's about popularity not truth for translations. Think about it. If the bible was translated properly it would not be a best-seller, but rather be delegated to obscurity.

Well, a man is never too old to learn Koine Greek then-that should be of great help to you , not only the prepositions.

An example is. For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes INTO Him should not perish but have eternal life. You will NEVER read a bible translation that accurately depicts the intended message at its proper depth. Even the eating Jesus' body and drinking His blood is accepted because the RC church decided that only means taking communion. Also many words were taken out...like "Jesus" Barabbas. The "Jesus" part was left out as it sounded too much like Jesus Christ. Who decided these things? Religious clerics...Who decided that Jesus needed to die? Religious clerics. Coincidence?

Matters little to me, whether eis Christos or en Christos-in, or into Jesus Christ. I have books on Textual Variants and don't follow the various offshoots/branches of the RC.

Are we doing God a favour by mis-translating the bible into something that provides a greater audience??? This could have been why the RC church didn't want the bible to be translated into a language that was common to the people.

A seeker will always win out in the end. All things work together for good to those who love God and diligently seek Him.

Think I will stick to my Koine Bible, and read Greek, busy learning Modern Hebrew since I have enough time sitting alone in my big house.
Correct on the last line-
All things work together for good.

Shalom brother
J.

 

[Lizbeth]

Just a little more accuracy in definitions of words....is all. Aphesis doesn't mean forgiveness...it means freedom or liberty. Read Is. 61:1...then compare directly to Luke 4:18. You will see how the word "aphesis" is meant to be used. Go over all those verses and substitute "freedom" from sin (instead of the false translation that says "forgiveness") and get the true message...or else trust in a man-inspired translation...a TARGUM of the real thing. Whatever you want to do.

The Hebrew word "deror" (Is. 61:1...that is translated as "aphesis" in the NT) means freedom or liberty. Check even a modern Hebrew dictionary. דרור...As in He came to set the captives free. That is the gospel...not...He came to forgive the transgressors. God was always merciful and He continues to be as long as we don't use His name in vain or claim things that aren't true about ourselves...staying humble and contrite. Jesus did not have to die for God to forgive us weak humans. That is as false as can be.

It's just like the word "imputation". What the word actually means is attributed to (in a truthful way)...as in the crying was imputed to the baby. But since the invention of the modern gospel that word...imputed...has now been changed to mean something that is attributed by an active imagination like the crying of the baby was imputed to the tree. So badly is the bible twisted that the false meaning has had to be added in to many bible dictionaries...meaning the very opposite of what is intended by the bible author...so that we have "special definitions"...just for modern believers. All of this completely foreign to the biblical narrative.

And we seem to love to have it so. As long as what we read in the bible encourages us to do what we have always been doing. It is the emperors new clothes of justification, however...to be revealed at the Bema seat judgment.

Loosed and freed from your debt = forgiveness. And crying can still be imputed/attributed to the baby whether it's crying or not. Pointed this out before but God calleth those things which be not as though they are. Check it out.....need ears to hear. But you'll keep on ignoring that passage because it contradicts your theology, or that part of it at least.

 

[Johann]

Loosed and freed from your debt = forgiveness. And crying can still be imputed/attributed to the baby whether it's crying or not. Pointed this out before but God calleth those things which be not as though they are. Check it out.....need ears to hear. But you'll keep on ignoring that passage because it contradicts your theology, or that part of it at least.

Amen-make a note of this. I don't want to repeat myself over and over again against Epi's "strange fire"

To provide an exegetical explanation of "Loosed and freed from your debt = forgiveness" using Greek and Hebrew words, syntax, and morphology, we need to look at the relevant biblical terms and their linguistic features. This explanation will explore the concepts of forgiveness, debt, and release in the context of biblical texts.

Greek: Ἀφίημι (Aphiemi)
Greek Word Study
ἀφίημι (aphiēmi):

Meaning: To send away, release, let go, forgive.

Root: Derived from the preposition "ἀπό" (apo, meaning "from") and "ἵημι" (hiēmi, meaning "to send").

Usage: Commonly used in the New Testament to denote the act of forgiving sins or debts.

Example in Scripture
Matthew 6:12 (Lord’s Prayer):

Greek: "καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν, ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφίεμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν."

Transliteration: "Kai aphes hēmin ta opheilēmata hēmōn, hōs kai hēmeis aphiēmen tois opheiletais hēmōn."

Translation: "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors."
Syntax and Morphology
ἄφες (aphes): Aorist active imperative of "ἀφίημι" – commanding to release or forgive.
ὀφειλήματα (opheilēmata): Plural form of "ὀφείλημα" – meaning debts or obligations.
ἀφίεμεν (aphiēmen): Present active indicative of "ἀφίημι" – we forgive or release.
Hebrew: שָׁלַח (Shalach) and נָשָׂא (Nasa)
Hebrew Word Study
שָׁלַח (shalach):
Meaning: To send, let go, release.
Usage: Used in contexts of releasing or sending away.
נָשָׂא (nasa):
Meaning: To lift, carry, take away, forgive.

Usage: Often used in the Old Testament to denote the lifting away or bearing of sin.
Example in Scripture
Leviticus 16:22 (Scapegoat ritual):
Hebrew: "וְנָשָׂא הַשָּׂעִיר עָלָיו אֶת כָּל עֲוֹנֹתָם אֶל אֶרֶץ גְּזֵרָה"
Transliteration: "Ve'nasa ha-sa'ir alav et kol avonotam el eretz gezeirah"

Translation: "The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place."

Syntax and Morphology
וְנָשָׂא (ve'nasa): Conjunction "וְ" (ve, meaning "and") with the perfect form of "נָשָׂא" (nasa) – "and it will carry."

עֲוֹנֹתָם (avonotam): Plural form of "עָוֹן" (avon) – meaning sins or iniquities, with a third-person masculine plural suffix indicating possession ("their sins").

Theological Explanation
In both Greek and Hebrew, the concept of forgiveness is closely tied to the idea of releasing or sending away something owed or an offense committed.

Greek Context: In the New Testament, "ἀφίημι" conveys the idea of releasing someone from their obligations or debts. This is seen in the Lord’s Prayer (Matthew 6:12), where forgiveness of sins (symbolized as debts) is a central petition.

Hebrew Context: In the Old Testament, "שָׁלַח" and "נָשָׂא" reflect the physical act of sending away or carrying off sins. For example, in the Leviticus scapegoat ritual, the goat bears the people's sins and is sent away, symbolizing the removal of those sins.

Summary
The concepts of being "loosed and freed from your debt" and "forgiveness" are deeply interwoven in both Greek and Hebrew Scriptures. The Greek "ἀφίημι" and the Hebrew "נָשָׂא" both convey the sense of lifting away, sending off, or releasing, which are central to the understanding of forgiveness.

Same with the " And crying can still be imputed/attributed to the baby whether it's crying or not."

J.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Wrong again @Episkopos --

Corrected Statement:

The statement that the Cross is primarily about atonement into holiness and sanctification, rather than forgiveness, does not fully capture the comprehensive work of redemption accomplished by Jesus Christ. While the Cross indeed brings about reconciliation and sanctification for believers, forgiveness of sins lies at the heart of its significance.

Scripture affirms the centrality of forgiveness in Christ's sacrificial death:

Colossians 1:14 (NIV): "In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." This verse explicitly states that redemption, which is made possible through Christ's work on the Cross, includes the forgiveness of sins.

Ephesians 1:7 (NIV): "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace." Here, forgiveness of sins is explicitly linked to redemption through Christ's blood.

Hebrews 9:22 (NIV): "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." This verse underscores the necessity of Christ's sacrificial death, which provides the basis for forgiveness of sins.

While the Cross indeed brings about holiness and sanctification for believers, it does so through the foundational reality of forgiveness secured by Christ's atoning sacrifice. Forgiveness is the starting point of our relationship with God, enabling us to be reconciled to Him and to experience the transformative work of sanctification by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, to understand the significance of the Cross without emphasizing forgiveness is to miss its central message and the core of God's redemptive plan for humanity.

Colossians 1:14 (NIV):

Greek Definitions:

Redemption (ἀπολύτρωσις, apolytrōsis): Deliverance, release, liberation.
Forgiveness (ἄφεσις, aphesis): Pardon, forgiveness, remission.
Morphology:

ἀπολύτρωσις (apolytrōsis) is a noun, accusative singular, feminine.
ἄφεσις (aphesis) is a noun, accusative singular, feminine.
Syntax:

"In whom we have redemption (ἀπολύτρωσις), the forgiveness (ἄφεσις) of sins."
ἄφεσις (aphesis) is in apposition to ἀπολύτρωσις (apolytrōsis), indicating that forgiveness is a component or aspect of redemption.
Ephesians 1:7 (NIV):

Greek Definitions:

Redemption (ἀπολύτρωσις, apolytrōsis): Deliverance, release, liberation.
Forgiveness (ἄφεσις, aphesis): Pardon, forgiveness, remission.
Morphology:

ἀπολύτρωσις (apolytrōsis) is a noun, accusative singular, feminine.
ἄφεσις (aphesis) is a noun, accusative singular, feminine.
Syntax:

"In him we have redemption (ἀπολύτρωσις) through his blood, the forgiveness (ἄφεσις) of sins."
ἄφεσις (aphesis) is again in apposition to ἀπολύτρωσις (apolytrōsis), indicating the relationship between forgiveness and redemption.
Hebrews 9:22 (NIV):

Greek Definitions:

Forgiveness (ἄφεσις, aphesis): Pardon, forgiveness, remission.
Morphology:

ἄφεσις (aphesis) is a noun, nominative singular, feminine.
Syntax:

"Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness (ἄφεσις)."

ἄφεσις (aphesis) is the subject of the sentence, emphasizing the necessity of forgiveness through the shedding of blood.

In summary, these verses emphasize the Greek terms for "redemption" and "forgiveness," highlighting their significance in the work of Christ on the Cross. The morphology and syntax reveal how these terms are used in the context of the verses, emphasizing their interrelationship and importance in understanding the redemptive work of Christ.

Matthew 26:28 (NIV):

"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."
Greek: "τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν τὸ αἷμά μου τῆς διαθήκης τὸ περὶ πολλῶν ἐκχυννόμενον εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν."
Acts 10:43 (NIV):

"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
Greek: "τοῦτον πάντες οἱ προφῆται μαρτυροῦσιν ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν λαμβάνειν διὰ τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ πάντα τὸν πιστεύοντα εἰς αὐτόν."
Acts 13:38 (NIV):

"Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you."
Greek: "γνωστὸν οὖν ἔστω ὑμῖν ἄνδρες ἀδελφοί ὅτι διὰ τούτου ὑμῖν ἄφεσις ἁμαρτιῶν καταγγέλλεται."
Ephesians 4:32 (NIV):

"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you."
Greek: "γίνεσθε δὲ εἰς ἀλλήλους χρηστοί, εὔσπλαγχνοι, χαριζόμενοι ἑαυτοῖς καθὼς καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἐν Χριστῷ ἐχαρίσατο ὑμῖν."
1 John 1:9 (NIV):

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."
Greek: "ἐὰν ὁμολογῶμεν τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν, πιστός ἐστιν καὶ δίκαιος, ἵνα ἀφῇ ἡμῖν τὰς ἁμαρτίας καὶ καθαρίσῃ ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἀδικίας."
These verses underscore the importance and availability of forgiveness of sins through the atoning work of Jesus Christ, providing assurance and encouragement for believers.

What more do you want brother?
J.

Well said. He would not have died for our sins if He did not have forgiveness in His heart beforehand - for His elect. That was the core purpose, an act of love, mercy and forgiveness _ His intention _ but not for all. He will not forgive many. He knew the sins of the world ... trillions! He paid the price, death.
But all these aspects of salvation towards redemption, our resurrection and the final consummation of all things, was His plan from the beginning.
Those whom he foreknew he predestined, and those whom he predestined he called, and those whom he called he justified, and those whom he justified he glorified" Rom. 8:30
Get ready for an upgrade!
I remember a Pastor comparing the change from our current bodies into our resurrected bodies to a caterpillar into a butterfly. A caterpillar inches along with somewhat limited dimensional capabilities. He has no idea what he will become. His parents did not show him nor teach him how or why to build a cocoon around himself and then go to sleep. Imagine his surprise when he awakes. Wow, I could fly ... I'm fast ... beautiful ... as he explores this new dimension of life.

 

[Episkopos]

Well said. He would not have died for our sins if He did not have forgiveness in His heart beforehand -

Jesus came to save the world, not condemn it.

for His elect.

For His elect? What about the Romans who put Him on the cross or the Sadducees who condemned Him? Did Jesus not say BEFORE He died..Forgive them Father, they know not what they do? I guess for those who confuse forgiveness and holiness that would be asking the Father to sanctify them? I don't think so.

That was the core purpose, an act of love, mercy and forgiveness _ His intention _ but not for all. He will not forgive many.

The mercy of God is greater than your imagination. He will not sanctify many...at least not with a full measure of grace..and not because He doesn't want to. But faith is lacking. Love is lacking. But...He will have mercy on the meek, the oppressed, those who suffer, are cast out, the fatherless, the widow...the poor.

He knew the sins of the world ... trillions! He paid the price, death.

Our sins put Him on the cross. He died because of our sins. He died because of our iniquities. We placed our own peace on Him in His death. People want to be free of a holy witness that condemns their actions. So to be at "peace" in the flesh...we tend to lash out against the perfection that shows us for what we really are.

But all these aspects of salvation towards redemption, our resurrection and the final consummation of all things, was His plan from the beginning.
Those whom he foreknew he predestined, and those whom he predestined he called, and those whom he called he justified, and those whom he justified he glorified" Rom. 8:30
Get ready for an upgrade!

First. get ready to be humbled. God gives grace to the humble (That's in the bible)

I remember a Pastor comparing the change from our current bodies into our resurrected bodies to a caterpillar into a butterfly. A caterpillar inches along with somewhat limited dimensional capabilities. He has no idea what he will become. His parents did not show him nor teach him how or why to build a cocoon around himself and then go to sleep. Imagine his surprise when he awakes. Wow, I could fly ... I'm fast ... beautiful ... as he explores this new dimension of life.

Yes, yes, the system churches teach an after life...never being awakened into eternal life in this life...just wait for the next one...lulling people to sleep and NOT seeking first the kingdom of God OR His righteousness..instead thinking we have that righteousness already by "accepting" Jesus and His finished work. Fables indeed. No reality, nor truth, nor faith nor love. Just religious certainty. Is that it???

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Jesus came to save the world, not condemn it

His 1st coming was as the Prince of Peace, Savior. His 2nd Coming will be quite different ...for judgment and His Bride a bitter/sweet visit.

Did Jesus not say BEFORE He died..Forgive them Father, they know not what they do?

For those who ask, He does.

But...He will have mercy on the meek, the oppressed, those who suffer, are cast out, the fatherless, the widow...the poor.

He has and He does.

First. get ready to be humbled. God gives grace to the humble (

Humility was the path to repentence. One needs to be like a child to come to the Lord. I am humble to God. Sometimes my pride or arrogance gets in the way with people, but I am a work in progress.
Are you humble?

Yes, yes, the system churches teach an after life...never being awakened into eternal life in this life...just wait for the next one.

No, the church I went to taught that a born again Christian HAS ETERNAL LIFE. We haven't yet received our eternal bodies yet, so I must either die or get raptured first.

...instead thinking we have that righteousness already by "accepting" Jesus and His finished work.

HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS HAS BEEN IMPUTED TO US. Since man could not keep the LAW, Christ fulfilled the requirements of the Law perfectly for us [ that's righteousness]. Our own righteousness, though we try, fails to be perfect all the time. Wr miss the mark of perfection. We are getting better at it though.

 

[Lizbeth]

Jesus came to save the world, not condemn it.


For His elect? What about the Romans who put Him on the cross or the Sadducees who condemned Him? Did Jesus not say BEFORE He died..Forgive them Father, they know not what they do? I guess for those who confuse forgiveness and holiness that would be asking the Father to sanctify them? I don't think so.


The mercy of God is greater than your imagination. He will not sanctify many...at least not with a full measure of grace..and not because He doesn't want to. But faith is lacking. Love is lacking. But...He will have mercy on the meek, the oppressed, those who suffer, are cast out, the fatherless, the widow...the poor.


Our sins put Him on the cross. He died because of our sins. He died because of our iniquities. We placed our own peace on Him in His death. People want to be free of a holy witness that condemns their actions. So to be at "peace" in the flesh...we tend to lash out against the perfection that shows us for what we really are.

First. get ready to be humbled. God gives grace to the humble (That's in the bible)

Yes, yes, the system churches teach an after life...never being awakened into eternal life in this life...just wait for the next one...lulling people to sleep and NOT seeking first the kingdom of God OR His righteousness..instead thinking we have that righteousness already by "accepting" Jesus and His finished work. Fables indeed. No reality, nor truth, nor faith nor love. Just religious certainty. Is that it???

Well, it generally takes humility to accept a free gift/charity, doesn't it? Your broad sweeping assumption that all who accept the gift are somehow necessarily being arrogant and self-righteous is simply not just. Some are like that yes, but it is in their own heart to be like that and not the fault of the gift.

Bible says we do get to taste the powers of the world to come, the kingdom of God, in this life.....but our bodies that we walk around in for now are not eternal...they will die. (Before being redeemed.) Flesh cannot inherit.

 

[Episkopos]

Well, it generally takes humility to accept a free gift/charity, doesn't it?

Maybe at first. People are adaptable, even programmable. Without proper direction, correction, doctrine, and good examples to follow...people can take a good thing and assume it means something it doesn't, even doing the very opposite of what the free gift/charity is meant to instill.

Your broad sweeping assumption that all who accept the gift are somehow necessarily being arrogant and self-righteous is simply not just.

Not at first, and not all. Its the ones who assume that what they have is all there is...or that they have no need to seek the Lord...since "they've got this". Those who deny the power of a holy walk as a reality to be lived out by seeking God's face at the throne of grace. These are the ones who will not repent...always learning, perhaps, but always flying under the radar when it comes to the truth. Falling short.

And even here, if we just remain humble and meek about it, there will be not a hard judgment based on holiness. God is merciful.

Some are like that yes, but it is in their own heart to be like that and not the fault of the gift.

That's true...grace is deceitful. But the problem is that unless the depth of something is known, there's no telling where the red line is. Hence the need to tremble before the Lord.

Bible says we do get to taste the powers of the world to come, the kingdom of God, in this life.....but our bodies that we walk around in for now are not eternal...they will die. (Before being redeemed.) Flesh cannot inherit.

Jesus walked in the perfection of God while on Earth. He died and was raised again so that we might partake of His life. All we have to do is believe INTO Him and we have that same level of walk....a heavenly walk that is given to us by grace...a walk that is hand in hand in the intimacy of the eternal One. Inheriting is about receiving what we have done in these bodies.

 

[Johann]

Jesus walked in the perfection of God while on Earth. He died and was raised again so that we might partake of His life. All we have to do is believe INTO Him and we have that same level of walk....a heavenly walk that is given to us by grace...a walk that is hand in hand in the intimacy of the eternal One. Inheriting is about receiving what we have done in these bodies.

And that is exactly what we are doing--we are believing eis/en Christ Jesus-what more do you want?

 

[Episkopos]

No, the church I went to taught that a born again Christian HAS ETERNAL LIFE. We haven't yet received our eternal bodies yet, so I must either die or get raptured first.

This makes it sound like the kingdom of God should only be sought for as an after-life. The bible is misunderstood since the depth of it is unknown. Having eternal life makes us walk on the same level as Christ in the world...without sin. As He IS...so are we in this world.

All this focus on an after-life but without experiencing the life we claim is waiting for those who believe INTO Christ right now. There are 2 levels or cuts to being a believer. The 1st cut is FROM the world...from the condemnation of the world. And at that stage we are meant to prove our faith and faithfulness to God so that we are translated into the walk of a saint. That is the second cut...being saved FROM the flesh and the power of sin. IOW going from Romans 7 to Romans 8.

HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS HAS BEEN IMPUTED TO US.

Delusional thinking means we have lost touch with reality. When people only expect to walk in Christ's perfection as an after life...anything can be taught. It's all based on the unknown. But to think that when God sees us He doesn't see our true condition, ...is obviously delusional.

Then there is a strong delusion that God sends on those who don't love the truth...that affects entire generations....among those who shrink back from the kind of faith from us that God expects. Can God not do the impossible? Is anything too hard for Him?

The truth about we being covered by God's righteousness is that when we walk in the heavenly realm of the Spirit we are walking in His presence and power. The higher walk that is by grace through faith (His grace and His faith) is a walk that is under the Headship of Christ and found IN God Himself. At that stage our lives are HID with God...In God. That is the proper way of seeing our relation to God's righteousness.

It is a fantasy to think that God sees us weak and sinful humans and thinks...look at that, a human that is as righteous as I am.

No..we can PUT ON Christ, the New Man, the whole armour of God, the armour of light...in God's righteousness...but we can't just claim these things because we read a bible.

Since man could not keep the LAW, Christ fulfilled the requirements of the Law perfectly for us [ that's righteousness]. Our own righteousness, though we try, fails to be perfect all the time. Wr miss the mark of perfection. We are getting better at it though.

Getting better at it? Have you ever heard the way the rabbis speak of the Law? Maybe in a few more thousand years they will be able to fulfill it. Can't you see the direct parallel between how the Jews miss the depth of the law the same way so many modern believers miss the depth of what it means to be under grace?

 

[Johann]

Delusional thinking means we have lost touch with reality. When people only expect to walk in Christ's perfection as an after life...anything can be taught

Calling other believers delusional makes you delusional.

The concept of the imputation of God's righteousness in Christ to believers is a central tenet in Christian theology, particularly within Protestant traditions. This doctrine holds that through faith in Jesus Christ, believers are credited with Christ's righteousness, making them justified before God. Here’s an in-depth look at this concept using references from the Lexham English Bible (LEB), the Textus Receptus (TR), and relevant commentary.

Biblical Basis
Romans 3:21-22 (LEB)

"But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified about by the law and the prophets—22 that is, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. For there is no distinction,"
Textus Receptus (TR)
"Νυνὶ δὲ χωρὶς νόμου δικαιοσύνη θεοῦ πεφανέρωται μαρτυρουμένη ὑπὸ τοῦ νόμου καὶ τῶν προφητῶν, 22 δικαιοσύνη δὲ θεοῦ διὰ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ εἰς πάντας τοὺς πιστεύοντας· οὐ γάρ ἐστιν διαστολή·"
2 Corinthians 5:21 (LEB)

"He made the one who did not know sin to be sin on our behalf, in order that we could become the righteousness of God in him."
Textus Receptus (TR)
"Τὸν γὰρ μὴ γνόντα ἁμαρτίαν ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν, ἵνα ἡμεῖς γινώμεθα δικαιοσύνη θεοῦ ἐν αὐτῷ."
Theological Explanation
The doctrine of imputed righteousness is fundamentally about the legal standing of believers before God. It involves a two-fold exchange: Christ taking on the sins of humanity and believers receiving Christ’s righteousness. This is often framed within the context of justification by faith, a key element of Reformation theology.

Commentary Insights
Romans 3:21-22

The commentary on Romans often highlights the transition from the Law to faith in Christ as the means of attaining righteousness. This passage underscores that the righteousness of God is now accessible apart from the Law and is available to all who believe in Jesus Christ. The righteousness in question is not inherent in individuals but is attributed to them through faith, reflecting God's grace.
2 Corinthians 5:21

This verse is pivotal in explaining the nature of substitutionary atonement. Christ, who was sinless, was made to be sin for humanity's sake, meaning He bore the penalty of sin. In exchange, believers are granted the righteousness of God. This righteousness is not merely moral improvement but a legal standing before God, ensuring believers are justified and reconciled to Him.
Key Concepts
Imputation:

Definition: Imputation, in theological terms, means to attribute or credit something to someone's account. In the context of righteousness, it means that the righteousness of Christ is credited to believers as if it were their own.
Mechanism: Through faith in Jesus Christ, believers are united with Him. This union means that Christ's righteous life and sacrificial death are accounted to the believer. Hence, God views believers as righteous because of Christ.
Justification by Faith:

Romans 3:28 (LEB): "For we consider a person to be justified by faith apart from the works of the law."
This underscores that justification, or being declared righteous before God, is based on faith in Christ rather than on one's own works or adherence to the Law.
Substitutionary Atonement:

Explanation: Christ's atoning sacrifice involves Him taking the place of sinners, bearing the punishment that was due to them. This act satisfies the requirements of divine justice, allowing God to justly declare sinners righteous.
Conclusion
The doctrine of imputed righteousness is grounded in key biblical passages such as Romans 3:21-22 and 2 Corinthians 5:21. It is theologically rich, emphasizing the legal standing of believers before God through faith in Jesus Christ. By imputation, Christ's righteousness is credited to believers, ensuring their justification and reconciliation with God. This concept is central to understanding the transformative power of the gospel and the nature of salvation in Christian theology.

Go sit in the second pew and say three hail Mary's.
J.

 

[Episkopos]

The suffering of Christ was not meant to be a sacrifice to us...to be accepted by us or not. We don't get to accept Jesus for ourselves. That's not how it works. We need to be, rather, accepted into the Beloved. God does the accepting, not us. Jesus sacrifice was to the Father....NOT to us. No one comes to Christ unless the Father draw him/her. He decides these things. God decides who will be saved for honour and who will be saved into dishonour, who will be accepted and who will be rejected. God decides these things. Our role in this is to remain humble and meek...fearing before Him. Our role is to obey the Lord with all we have and are.

13 The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.