Deconstruction Part 2: Into Apostolicity

[Lizbeth]

Yes, Scriptures are "profitable" AND essential --in a literal and essential sense. I noticed @marks Liked your answer for some reason but I would disagree.

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Don't really want to argue about this. And I'm not sure how to express what I think accurately, and without being misunderstood on one side or the other.

I think there is a reason why it was written as "profitable", in what seems like an understated way. And we are not to exceed or go beyond what is written. As much as I love the word of God and as helpful as the scriptures are in edifying us and as a spiritual weapon, I just don't want to put them quite on a par with the person of God Himself, maybe I could say....? Just a hunch but I wonder if it was written as "profitable" in order to not give the impression that the scriptures are equal to God Himself, so as to not encourage a kind of idolatry in that regard.

 

[Lizbeth]

John Bunyan on the Papacy

"Antichrist is the adversary of Christ - an adversary really, a friend pretendedly; so then Antichrist is one that is against Christ, one that is for Christ, and one that is contrary to Him - and this is that mystery of iniquity. Against Him in deed, for Him in word, and contrary to Him in practice" (Complete Works of John Bunyan, Volume 4, 1968, 140-141).

"[The false Church] blasphemes the Holy Ghost in accusing and condemning the Holy Scriptures of insufficiency, for that she says, though as a rule, yet but imperfect one; one deficient, one that is not able to make the man of God perfect in all things, without traditions, inventions, and blasphemous helps of anti-Christian wisdom" (Complete Works of John Bunyan, Volume 4, 151).

If one could prove the proposition that the Bible is the Word of God, then the proposition would not be the starting point. There would be something even before Scripture. According to Scripture, however, there is no higher source of truth than God’s own self-disclosure. As stated by the author of Hebrews, “because He [God] could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself” (6:13). The Scriptures, therefore, cannot possibly be deduced from any superior principle. They are, as Calvin taught, self-authenticating and self-attesting. He wrote:

For they mock the Holy Spirit when they ask: Who can convince us that these writings come from God? Who can assure us that Scripture has come down whole and intact even to our day? ... Thus the highest proof of Scripture derives in general from the fact that God in person speaks in it. The prophets and apostles do not boast either of their keenness or of anything that obtains credit from them as they speak; nor do they dwell upon rational proofs. Rather, they bring forward God’s holy name, that by it the whole world may be brought into obedience to Him.(7)



The Westminster Confession of Faith (1:4) says it this way:

The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed and obeyed, depends not upon the testimony of any man or church, but wholly upon God (who is truth itself), the author thereof; and therefore it is to be received, because it is the Word of God.



And Jonathan Edwards commented that the Word of God does not “go about begging for its evidence, so much as some think; it has the highest and most proper evidence in itself.”(8) One, then, must accept God’s special revelation as axiomatic, or there is no knowledge possible at all. In the words of Clark, “an immediate point, touching on both epistemology and theology…is the impossibility of knowing God otherwise than by revelation…either revelation must be accepted as an axiom or there is no knowledge of God at all.”(9)



Further, in Christian epistemology, there is no dichotomy between faith (revelation) and reason (logic). These two go hand in hand, for it is Jesus Christ, the Logos, who reveals the truth. Christianity is rational, because Christ is Himself the Logic,(10) Reason, and Wisdom of God incarnate (John 1:1; 1 Corinthians 1:24, 30; Colossians 2:3). Being the image of God, man can reason; he can think logically, because God has given him this innate ability.



This God-given ability permits men to understand the propositions revealed in Scripture. It is necessary to believe something, as one’s axiomatic starting point, in order to understand anything. To reason properly, one must have a foundation upon which all is based. In the Christian worldview (Christian rationalism), knowledge comes through reason (i.e., logic), not from reasoning (as in pure rationalism). Unlike pure rationalism, Scripturalism stands upon the foundation of Biblical revelation. As stated in Augustine’s dictum: “I believe in order to understand.”(11)

The Trinity Foundation - Luther and Calvin on the Authority of the Bible

All acquainted with the sixteenth century Reformation know that the watchword was Sola Scriptura-”Scripture alone.” This assertion was made against the pope, the church “fathers,” and church councils. Luther

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And with this I rest my case.
Johann.

Do you really think I need convincing to love and value the scriptures, brother? My posts speak for themselves......I've even had people complain about me "scripture bombing" in my time, lol.

 

[Johann]

Don't really want to argue about this. And I'm not sure how to express what I think accurately, and without being misunderstood on one side or the other.

I think there is a reason why it was written as "profitable", in what seems like an understated way. And we are not to exceed or go beyond what is written. As much as I love the word of God and as helpful as the scriptures are in edifying us and as a spiritual weapon, I just don't want to put them quite on a par with the person of God Himself, maybe I could say....? Just a hunch but I wonder if it was written as "profitable" in order to not give the impression that the scriptures are equal to God Himself, so as to not encourage a kind of idolatry in that regard.

When we say that Scripture is "God-breathed" or inspired by God (as stated in 2 Timothy 3:16), it means that God guided and influenced the human authors of Scripture to convey his divine truth. This divine inspiration affirms the authority and reliability of Scripture as a means through which God reveals himself and his will to humanity.

However, it's important to clarify the distinction between something being inspired by God and something being equal to God in essence or nature:

Nature of God: God, in Christian theology, is understood as eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. God is the Creator of the universe and exists as the Father, Son (Jesus Christ), and Holy Spirit (the Trinity). This triune nature of God is unique and incomparable.

Nature of Scripture: Scripture, while inspired by God, is a created entity. It consists of writings authored by human beings who were inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit. Scripture is authoritative and trustworthy as the written Word of God, but it is not divine in nature like God himself.

Authority vs. Identity: Scripture has authority because it originates from God and carries his divine message. It is to be revered, studied, and obeyed by believers. However, Scripture itself does not possess the attributes of deity (such as omnipotence, omniscience, etc.) that characterize God alone.

Worship and Reverence: Christians worship God alone, not Scripture. Scripture is revered and respected as the inspired Word of God, but worship is directed towards God alone, who is worthy of all praise and adoration.

Therefore, while Scripture is "God-breathed" and holds a central place in Christian faith and practice as the authoritative Word of God, it is not considered equal to God in essence or nature. The term "God-breathed" affirms its divine origin and authority but does not imply that Scripture shares the divine attributes of God himself.

I don't worship my Bible, I worship our Lord Christ Jesus and even my Bible in the Psalms is teaching me how to pray. What idolatry, may I ask?

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (New International Version):
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

2 Peter 1:20-21 (New International Version):
"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

These passages affirm that Scripture is not merely the product of human authorship or interpretation but is divinely inspired by God through the work of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, Scripture is considered to be authoritative, truthful, and reliable in matters of faith, doctrine, and practice for Christians.

This concept of the divine inspiration of Scripture underscores its importance and centrality in Christian theology and worship, as it is viewed as a means through which God reveals Himself, His will, and His redemptive plan for humanity.



2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV):
"16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."



"And" connects the previous clause with the following list of purposes.
"Is profitable" describes the nature of Scripture.
"For doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" lists the purposes for which Scripture is beneficial. These include teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness, highlighting its practical and moral guidance for believers.
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works:



"That the man of God" is the subject.
"May be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" is the predicate. This phrase expresses the intended outcome or result of Scripture's profitability — that believers, specifically those dedicated to serving God (the man of God), may be complete, equipped, and prepared for all good works.
Summary:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 in the KJV emphasizes the divine origin and utility of Scripture for the believer's spiritual growth and conduct. It asserts that all Scripture is inspired by God and serves various purposes such as teaching, correction, and instruction in righteousness. Ultimately, its purpose is to equip believers so that they may be thoroughly prepared for every good work in service to God.



Translation: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness," (KJV)

Syntax and Context:

ὠφέλιμος functions as an adjective modifying γραφὴ (Scripture). It emphasizes that Scripture is not only inspired (θεόπνευστος) but also useful and beneficial for several purposes:
διδασκαλίαν (teaching),
ἐλεγμόν (reproof or conviction),
ἐπανόρθωσιν (correction or restoration),
παιδείαν (training or instruction),
These purposes outline the practical benefits of Scripture in guiding believers in their faith, conduct, and spiritual growth.
In summary, ὠφέλιμος in the Greek text of 2 Timothy 3:16 underscores the practical usefulness and benefit of Scripture for believers, highlighting its role in teaching, correcting, and instructing them in righteousness.

Calvin takes great pains to stress that under both the old and new dispensation God committed his Word to writing in order to ensure a correct knowledge of himself apart from any priestly interpretation. When the Reformer speaks of the apostles being authorized to teach what Christ commanded, he says: “Let this be a firm principle: No other word is to be held as the Word of God and given place as such in the Church than what is contained first in the Law and the Prophets, then in the writings of the apostles; and the only authorized way of teaching in the church is by the prescription and standard of his Word.” Calvin makes it clear that Christ limited the mission of the apostles “when he ordered them to go and teach not what they had thoughtlessly fabricated, but all that he had commanded them.” Without the Bible we have no revelation from God which is able to save us from sin and death. Sola Scriptura means the necessity of Scripture.


Modern views on authority do not echo the sentiments of Luther and Calvin. Yet interestingly enough, many of these views are anticipated in the defense of truth made by these two sons of Paul. As previously stated, some today wish to speak of Christ being the final authority while they reject the authority of the Word. However, Calvin sees the authoritative reign of Christ in and through, not apart from, the Word. So also with those who would claim direct governance by the Spirit. Governance by the Spirit without or instead of the Word would be too vague and unstable. Christ has joined the Spirit to the Word to avoid such a vague, unstable government. Word and Spirit belong together-inseparably together.

Those who wish to propound a multiple source concept of authority would do well to hearken to the sola of Luther. He, like Calvin, repudiated the notion that the Scriptures are created by the church and not vice versa:

The Church is built on the word of the Gospel which is the Word of God’s wisdom and virtue.

The Word of God preserves the Church of God.

Indeed, the church owes her existence to the Word and is maintained by the same means. Nor would Luther be patient with the argument by the sophists, who deduced the superiority of the church over the Word because of the supposed creation of the canon by the church. The inimitable response of Luther cannot go unquoted:

What a splendid argument! I approve Scripture. Therefore I am superior to Scripture. John the Baptist acknowledges and confesses Christ. He points to him with his finger. Therefore he is superior to Christ. The church approves Christian faith and doctrine. Therefore the church is superior to them.

Surely no more needs to be added. For Luther and Calvin, sola Scriptura meant the absolute authority of the Bible. Their position is but the reflection of Paul’s and ought, therefore, to be ours.

Johann

 

[Johann]

Do you really think I need convincing to love and value the scriptures, brother? My posts speak for themselves......I've even had people complain about me "scripture bombing" in my time, lol.

No problem-forget I've even brought this up.

 

[Episkopos]

When we say that Scripture is "God-breathed" or inspired by God (as stated in 2 Timothy 3:16), it means that God guided and influenced the human authors of Scripture to convey his divine truth. This divine inspiration affirms the authority and reliability of Scripture as a means through which God reveals himself and his will to humanity.

However, it's important to clarify the distinction between something being inspired by God and something being equal to God in essence or nature:



Those who wish to propound a multiple source concept of authority would do well to hearken to the sola of Luther. He, like Calvin, repudiated the notion that the Scriptures are created by the church and not vice versa:

The Church is built on the word of the Gospel which is the Word of God’s wisdom and virtue.

The Word of God preserves the Church of God.

Indeed, the church owes her existence to the Word and is maintained by the same means. Nor would Luther be patient with the argument by the sophists, who deduced the superiority of the church over the Word because of the supposed creation of the canon by the church. The inimitable response of Luther cannot go unquoted:

What a splendid argument! I approve Scripture. Therefore I am superior to Scripture. John the Baptist acknowledges and confesses Christ. He points to him with his finger. Therefore he is superior to Christ. The church approves Christian faith and doctrine. Therefore the church is superior to them.

Surely no more needs to be added. For Luther and Calvin, sola Scriptura meant the absolute authority of the Bible. Their position is but the reflection of Paul’s and ought, therefore, to be ours.

Johann

Comparing the written words from God to what the Spirit says to Christ-followers should be easy enough if we look at this in balance. The words of God could be seen as a map. They are not personal to us...they are general and meant for all. So they are good for corporate decrees, readings and general knowledge. But for a more personal account and orientation from God we need the direction of the Spirit. So if the bible can be seen as a map, the Spirit can be seen as a compass. Moving in the direction of the Spirit gives us encounters that correspond directly to what is written on the map, or the bible. Over time we cab get to know exactly where we are and what the environment of God's will looks like. Each person can do this...but it is not an easy process. That's why there are teachers in the Body. As one put the teachings into practice we can see whether the teacher has a clue as to what works in truth.

Here I'm speaking only of how the bible can be used in comparison to direct promptings and words from the Lord through the Spirit. The sons of God are led by the Spirit. The bible records this. The bible points the way, but it is not the way itself.

Imagine being in the desert but having a map of the country. Like having a bible but without any spiritual guidance. Well such a person will have to MOVE in a direction to find such landmarks as are recorded on the map. If a person stays still then the person can only guess as to his/her whereabouts on the map. The only thing is that without a clear spiritual directive, the person will go in circles. Our own ways of thinking follow a pattern. Anyone who has been lost in the woods (I have 3 times while hunting) knows that at some point you find your own tracks. The way out for a lost person is to look up at the sun..if it is visible...and move in the same direction over a period of time...until a landmark is encountered. Looking up represents faith...looking at something immovable. Looking at our surroundings only makes you go in circles. Now if there is no sun or celestial marker to guide you, like if it is nighttime...as happened to me once... then the only way out is to cry out!...and that is what we do when we are lost...cry out to God.

What I find so many believers doing is trusting that they know where they are without moving...instead becoming smug, and "camping out" in their lostness. If these do try to move they end up where they have started, so they stop really seeking. It seems to these that the truth cannot be known...so they give that up and then defend the ignorance one retains by NOT seeking and finding. Such is the present church culture. And the leaders of the church are so lost themselves that they teach a doctrine that is easily refuted once one begins to understand what the map is conveying..and once one learns to follow the compass INTO that knowledge.

I think most people look at these things superficially. I, myself, test everything thoroughly, as I think it our duty to not just know the map, but to be able to navigate the course laid out on it...by means of the compass that helps us to avoid going in circles or else staying in one place out of the kind of spiritual slumber that is encouraged in the religious institutions. These have no faith in the compass (the Spirit)...as they rely on an after-life...rather than moving forward...thus "burying" their talent. Still others CLAIM to be led by the Spirit, but are as lost or MORE lost than the ones who don't move. This further convinces the static ones that staying put and waiting for an after-life is the best option.

God isn’t going to direct you personally unless you are motivated to move and trust Him to guide you. So the first step is to move, to seek, to ask, to knock, with determination, a determination that makes God want to help you, since you are now hungry and thirsty for His guidance. As the deer…Ps. 42:1

 

[Lizbeth]

When we say that Scripture is "God-breathed" or inspired by God (as stated in 2 Timothy 3:16), it means that God guided and influenced the human authors of Scripture to convey his divine truth. This divine inspiration affirms the authority and reliability of Scripture as a means through which God reveals himself and his will to humanity.

However, it's important to clarify the distinction between something being inspired by God and something being equal to God in essence or nature:

Nature of God: God, in Christian theology, is understood as eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. God is the Creator of the universe and exists as the Father, Son (Jesus Christ), and Holy Spirit (the Trinity). This triune nature of God is unique and incomparable.

Nature of Scripture: Scripture, while inspired by God, is a created entity. It consists of writings authored by human beings who were inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit. Scripture is authoritative and trustworthy as the written Word of God, but it is not divine in nature like God himself.

Authority vs. Identity: Scripture has authority because it originates from God and carries his divine message. It is to be revered, studied, and obeyed by believers. However, Scripture itself does not possess the attributes of deity (such as omnipotence, omniscience, etc.) that characterize God alone.

Worship and Reverence: Christians worship God alone, not Scripture. Scripture is revered and respected as the inspired Word of God, but worship is directed towards God alone, who is worthy of all praise and adoration.

Therefore, while Scripture is "God-breathed" and holds a central place in Christian faith and practice as the authoritative Word of God, it is not considered equal to God in essence or nature. The term "God-breathed" affirms its divine origin and authority but does not imply that Scripture shares the divine attributes of God himself.

I don't worship my Bible, I worship our Lord Christ Jesus and even my Bible in the Psalms is teaching me how to pray. What idolatry, may I ask?

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (New International Version):
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

2 Peter 1:20-21 (New International Version):
"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

These passages affirm that Scripture is not merely the product of human authorship or interpretation but is divinely inspired by God through the work of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, Scripture is considered to be authoritative, truthful, and reliable in matters of faith, doctrine, and practice for Christians.

This concept of the divine inspiration of Scripture underscores its importance and centrality in Christian theology and worship, as it is viewed as a means through which God reveals Himself, His will, and His redemptive plan for humanity.



2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV):
"16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."



"And" connects the previous clause with the following list of purposes.
"Is profitable" describes the nature of Scripture.
"For doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" lists the purposes for which Scripture is beneficial. These include teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness, highlighting its practical and moral guidance for believers.
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works:



"That the man of God" is the subject.
"May be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" is the predicate. This phrase expresses the intended outcome or result of Scripture's profitability — that believers, specifically those dedicated to serving God (the man of God), may be complete, equipped, and prepared for all good works.
Summary:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 in the KJV emphasizes the divine origin and utility of Scripture for the believer's spiritual growth and conduct. It asserts that all Scripture is inspired by God and serves various purposes such as teaching, correction, and instruction in righteousness. Ultimately, its purpose is to equip believers so that they may be thoroughly prepared for every good work in service to God.



Translation: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness," (KJV)

Syntax and Context:

ὠφέλιμος functions as an adjective modifying γραφὴ (Scripture). It emphasizes that Scripture is not only inspired (θεόπνευστος) but also useful and beneficial for several purposes:
διδασκαλίαν (teaching),
ἐλεγμόν (reproof or conviction),
ἐπανόρθωσιν (correction or restoration),
παιδείαν (training or instruction),
These purposes outline the practical benefits of Scripture in guiding believers in their faith, conduct, and spiritual growth.
In summary, ὠφέλιμος in the Greek text of 2 Timothy 3:16 underscores the practical usefulness and benefit of Scripture for believers, highlighting its role in teaching, correcting, and instructing them in righteousness.

Calvin takes great pains to stress that under both the old and new dispensation God committed his Word to writing in order to ensure a correct knowledge of himself apart from any priestly interpretation. When the Reformer speaks of the apostles being authorized to teach what Christ commanded, he says: “Let this be a firm principle: No other word is to be held as the Word of God and given place as such in the Church than what is contained first in the Law and the Prophets, then in the writings of the apostles; and the only authorized way of teaching in the church is by the prescription and standard of his Word.” Calvin makes it clear that Christ limited the mission of the apostles “when he ordered them to go and teach not what they had thoughtlessly fabricated, but all that he had commanded them.” Without the Bible we have no revelation from God which is able to save us from sin and death. Sola Scriptura means the necessity of Scripture.


Modern views on authority do not echo the sentiments of Luther and Calvin. Yet interestingly enough, many of these views are anticipated in the defense of truth made by these two sons of Paul. As previously stated, some today wish to speak of Christ being the final authority while they reject the authority of the Word. However, Calvin sees the authoritative reign of Christ in and through, not apart from, the Word. So also with those who would claim direct governance by the Spirit. Governance by the Spirit without or instead of the Word would be too vague and unstable. Christ has joined the Spirit to the Word to avoid such a vague, unstable government. Word and Spirit belong together-inseparably together.

Those who wish to propound a multiple source concept of authority would do well to hearken to the sola of Luther. He, like Calvin, repudiated the notion that the Scriptures are created by the church and not vice versa:

The Church is built on the word of the Gospel which is the Word of God’s wisdom and virtue.

The Word of God preserves the Church of God.

Indeed, the church owes her existence to the Word and is maintained by the same means. Nor would Luther be patient with the argument by the sophists, who deduced the superiority of the church over the Word because of the supposed creation of the canon by the church. The inimitable response of Luther cannot go unquoted:

What a splendid argument! I approve Scripture. Therefore I am superior to Scripture. John the Baptist acknowledges and confesses Christ. He points to him with his finger. Therefore he is superior to Christ. The church approves Christian faith and doctrine. Therefore the church is superior to them.

Surely no more needs to be added. For Luther and Calvin, sola Scriptura meant the absolute authority of the Bible. Their position is but the reflection of Paul’s and ought, therefore, to be ours.

Johann

Brother I'm not sure I can quite agree with sola scriptura since it is a case of both the Spirit and the Word together. But if they just meant sola scriptura as opposed to so-called church authority then amen. And I'm sure none of us here are praying to our bibles! But we look UP from our bibles as it were, to praise and thank the Lord and pray (and sometimes hear from Him too).

 

[Lizbeth]

No problem-forget I've even brought this up.

No worries, we're all trying to sort this out. It just seems so hard to nail it down in words without appearing to be over-emphasizing or dismissive of one side or the other. Maybe it's just a case of which side anyone needs reminding or encouraging in at any given time. We need to try and have the right balance, that's all.

I've been in places where the word of God was sidelined in the pursuit of "spiritual experiences", and I've seen the opposite situation as well where the word was emphasized but the Spirit was quenched and not allowed any rein at all. I consider that they are both wrong.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I've been in places where the word of God was sidelined in the pursuit of "spiritual experiences", and I've seen the opposite situation as well where the word was emphasized but the Spirit was quenched and not allowed any rein at all. I consider that they are both wrong.

The conversation between you two has also made me wonder how God communicates with those who don’t have bibles readily at their fingertips, or those having never learned to read. Two things I think of is, first, in the Old Testament where it says the word of God came to them. It wasn’t a book coming to them but the word of God. And second, 1 Peter 3:1-5 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; [2] While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. [3] Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; [4] But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. [5] For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

Oh there’s a third, 2 Corinthians 3:2-3 KJV
You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: [3] Forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

So I see He can do anything. To me though reading the bible is essential. You spoke of getting caught up in everything spiritual experience and feelings …me too. I had verses taped all over my walls that promised things preachers on the radio said God would give me. I hadn’t picked up the word yet but I had a good prayer life. I was so convinced of spiritual experience that I was brainwashed into believing I felt myself vibrating. I was right there as you said —right smack in the middle of something but I didn’t know what. The things I was praying …make no sense now. One was I wanted God to heal my eyes so I didn’t need glasses. I thought it was a shame and contradictory for healers claiming healing, but they wore spectacles. That made no sense to me. I mean…couldn’t they rebuke the bad eye sight to be gone? Lol. In a way…I think He did heal my eyes. But not like I thought. To make this quick …after probably a year of this I finally picked up his word and started to read all those things taped to my wall. I began to take them down one by one seeing in context…it wasn’t like I’d been sold and bought it up hook line and sink, to believe it says. All those things taped to my wall…someone else had told me God promised to give me. BUT the first time not a man, but God gave me something significant to tape to my wall …that became a healing verse to me, not because someone else told me it was a promise where if I rubbed a lamp, a genie would appear to make all my desires come true … this was different. In the weirdest place of all, it spoke to my heart:

Job 38:24-27 By what way is the light parted, which scatters the east wind upon the earth? Who has divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder; To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man; [27] To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?

Now you might say I’m crazy but over the years now, that in Job has taken shape. To cause it to rain on the earth, where there is no man; wherein there is “no man” …I hear the Book of Revelation where John wept because no man was found worthy. To me that is what if means by “where no man is” because “the desolate and waste ground” that is going to be sowed into is “the heart” …and John wept because there was no man found worthy..but there stood a Lamb as it had been slain.

to satisfy that desolate and waste ground …to cause that tender plant to spring forth. I hear: Isaiah 53:2-7 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. [3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. [4] Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. [5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. [6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. [7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

To me those verses in Job became “the healing” instead of all that I didn’t even understand taped on my wall. Just sharing. I can relate to what you said. I can’t imagine how God untangles someone’s thoughts without the word. It’s essential to me. My head is so messed up by what I’ve been told, that I have to be able to go read it for myself to work those things out. But after a long post…I do also see, surely God can do anything (when people don’t have bibles). Because hey, I don’t think I pulled that in Job out of nowhere, but He had to help. If He can do that while I sit in our attic staring at a wall…supplying “out of the desolate and waste ground, a tender plant will spring forth.” He can do anything, anywhere, anytime. Maybe a forth aside from the word is: the Word of God is not bound.

 

[Lizbeth]

The conversation between you two has also made me wonder how God communicates with those who don’t have bibles readily at their fingertips, or those having never learned to read. Two things I think of is, first, in the Old Testament where it says the word of God came to them. It wasn’t a book coming to them but the word of God. And second, 1 Peter 3:1-5 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; [2] While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. [3] Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; [4] But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. [5] For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

Oh there’s a third, 2 Corinthians 3:2-3 KJV
You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: [3] Forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

So I see He can do anything. To me though reading the bible is essential. You spoke of getting caught up in everything spiritual experience and feelings …me too. I had verses taped all over my walls that promised things preachers on the radio said God would give me. I hadn’t picked up the word yet but I had a good prayer life. I was so convinced of spiritual experience that I was brainwashed into believing I felt myself vibrating. I was right there as you said —right smack in the middle of something but I didn’t know what. The things I was praying …make no sense now. One was I wanted God to heal my eyes so I didn’t need glasses. I thought it was a shame and contradictory for healers claiming healing, but they wore spectacles. That made no sense to me. I mean…couldn’t they rebuke the bad eye sight to be gone? Lol. In a way…I think He did heal my eyes. But not like I thought. To make this quick …after probably a year of this I finally picked up his word and started to read all those things taped to my wall. I began to take them down one by one seeing in context…it wasn’t like I’d been sold and bought it up hook line and sink, to believe it says. All those things taped to my wall…someone else had told me God promised to give me. BUT the first time not a man, but God gave me something significant to tape to my wall …that became a healing verse to me, not because someone else told me it was a promise where if I rubbed a lamp, a genie would appear to make all my desires come true … this was different. In the weirdest place of all, it spoke to my heart:

Job 38:24-27 By what way is the light parted, which scatters the east wind upon the earth? Who has divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder; To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man; [27] To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?

Now you might say I’m crazy but over the years now, that in Job has taken shape. To cause it to rain on the earth, where there is no man; wherein there is “no man” …I hear the Book of Revelation where John wept because no man was found worthy. To me that is what if means by “where no man is” because “the desolate and waste ground” that is going to be sowed into is “the heart” …and John wept because there was no man found worthy..but there stood a Lamb as it had been slain.

to satisfy that desolate and waste ground …to cause that tender plant to spring forth. I hear: Isaiah 53:2-7 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. [3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. [4] Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. [5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. [6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. [7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

To me those verses in Job became “the healing” instead of all that I didn’t even understand taped on my wall. Just sharing. I can relate to what you said. I can’t imagine how God untangles someone’s thoughts without the word. It’s essential to me. My head is so messed up by what I’ve been told, that I have to be able to go read it for myself to work those things out. But after a long post…I do also see, surely God can do anything (when people don’t have bibles). Because hey, I don’t think I pulled that in Job out of nowhere, but He had to help. If He can do that while I sit in our attic staring at a wall…supplying “out of the desolate and waste ground, a tender plant will spring forth.” He can do anything, anywhere, anytime. Maybe a forth aside from the word is: the Word of God is not bound.

Amen. I can relate to a lot of this too sister. I once had a laundry list of things I wanted the Lord to do for me...lol. Had a lot to learn...for starters that He didn't exist to serve me, but the other way around! When I woke up to that, I think that was the beginning of me growing out of my state of "infancy."

My spiritual life didn't really start to bloom until I left the churches and silenced all the other voices out there to be able to hear His voice, both through the word and in other ways. Stopped being a Martha and became a Mary. And He began to straighten me out and wash me of things I had imbibed from the churches and Christian books and just put me back in the bible. To whom does He teach wisdom and knowledge, to those who are weaned from the breasts (of mother church is perhaps one way to understand that I believe).

That's something to really ponder...the word of God is not bound.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Amen. I can relate to a lot of this too sister. I once had a laundry list of things I wanted the Lord to do for me...lol. Had a lot to learn...for starters that He didn't exist to serve me, but the other way around! When I woke up to that, I think that was the beginning of me growing out of my state of "infancy."

My spiritual life didn't really start to bloom until I left the churches and silenced all the other voices out there to be able to hear His voice, both through the word and in other ways. Stopped being a Martha and became a Mary. And He began to straighten me out and wash me of things I had imbibed from the churches and Christian books and just put me back in the bible. To whom does He teach wisdom and knowledge, to those who are weaned from the breasts (of mother church is perhaps one way to understand that I believe).

That's something to really ponder...the word of God is not bound.

I hope He continues to strengthen and grow every one here. In my family this has become evident…when any member thrives at any given time, and others grow and advance ..it benefits the whole. My family would be much better if all members grow well (I mean edified and strengthened in Him). Just saying…I think we forget that here in the board sometimes. I enjoyed our conversation. It was a blessing when we’ve struggled with some of the same, to now be able share how He has helped.

 

[Johann]

Brother I'm not sure I can quite agree with sola scriptura since it is a case of both the Spirit and the Word together. But if they just meant sola scriptura as opposed to so-called church authority then amen. And I'm sure none of us here are praying to our bibles! But we look UP from our bibles as it were, to praise and thank the Lord and pray (and sometimes hear from Him too).

There seems to be a serious miscommunication between me and you and yes, the Spirit and the D'varim work together.
Who said we need to pray to our bibles?
It would appear that Scripture is not enough, there must be "something more" experiences, dreams, visions, healings-hearing voices etc. This MUST/DEI be the norm-here is my question to you-what is your calling and gift in the body of Christ? Are you obedient to your calling and gift-that's IF you have a calling or a gift.

Do you think I sit with my head in the Bible and don't DO anything for the Kingdom of God?



Rom 12:4 - γὰρ Just as καθάπερ each of us has ἔχομεν, one ἑνὶ body σώματι with ἐν many πολλὰ members, μέλη and δὲ not οὐ all πάντα - τὰ members μέλη have ἔχει the τὴν same αὐτὴν function, πρᾶξιν,
Rom 12:5 so οὕτως in ἐν Christ Χριστῷ, we who are ἐσμεν - οἱ many πολλοὶ [are] one ἓν body σῶμά - , τὸ and δὲ each καθ’ member μέλη. [belongs to] one εἷς another. ἀλλήλων
Rom 12:6 - δὲ We have Ἔχοντες different διάφορα, gifts χαρίσματα according to κατὰ the τὴν grace χάριν - τὴν given δοθεῖσαν us. ἡμῖν If [someone’s gift is] εἴτε prophecy, προφητείαν, [let him use] it κατὰ - τὴν in proportion ἀναλογίαν to [his] τῆς faith; πίστεως·
Rom 12:7 [if it is] εἴτε serving, διακονίαν, - ἐν - τῇ let him serve; διακονίᾳ· [if it is] εἴτε - ὁ teaching, διδάσκων, - ἐν - τῇ let him teach; διδασκαλίᾳ·
Rom 12:8 [if it is] εἴτε - ὁ encouraging, παρακαλῶν, - ἐν - τῇ let him encourage; παρακλήσει· [if it is] ὁ giving, μεταδιδοὺς - ἐν let him give generously; ἁπλότητι, [if it is] ὁ leading, προϊστάμενος [let him lead] with ἐν diligence; σπουδῇ, [if it is] ὁ showing mercy, ἐλεῶν [let him do it] ἐν cheerfully. ἱλαρότητι.
Marks of the True Christian
Rom 12:9 - Ἡ Love ἀγάπη must be sincere. ἀνυπόκριτος. Detest ἀποστυγοῦντες what [is] τὸ evil; πονηρόν, cling to κολλώμενοι what [is] τῷ good. ἀγαθῷ·
Rom 12:10 Be devoted φιλόστοργοι, to εἰς one another ἀλλήλους - τῇ in brotherly love. φιλαδελφίᾳ Outdo yourselves προηγούμενοι, - τῇ in honoring τιμῇ one another. ἀλλήλους
Rom 12:11 Do not let μὴ [your] τῇ zeal σπουδῇ subside; ὀκνηροί, keep your spiritual fervor ζέοντες, . . . τῷ . . . , πνεύματι serving δουλεύοντες, the τῷ Lord. Κυρίῳ
Rom 12:12 Be joyful χαίροντες, - τῇ in hope, ἐλπίδι patient ὑπομένοντες, - τῇ in affliction, θλίψει persistent προσκαρτεροῦντες, - τῇ in prayer. προσευχῇ
Rom 12:13 Share with κοινωνοῦντες, the τῶν saints ἁγίων who [are] ταῖς in need. χρείαις Practice διώκοντες. - τὴν hospitality. φιλοξενίαν
Rom 12:14 Bless Εὐλογεῖτε those who τοὺς persecute διώκοντας you. [ὑμᾶς], Bless εὐλογεῖτε and καὶ {do} not μὴ curse. καταρᾶσθε.
Rom 12:15 Rejoice χαίρειν with μετὰ those who rejoice; χαιρόντων, weep κλαίειν with μετὰ those who weep. κλαιόντων.
Rom 12:16 Live in harmony φρονοῦντες· . . . τὸ . . . αὐτὸ with εἰς one another. ἀλλήλους vvv μὴ Do not be proud φρονοῦντες . . . τὰ . . . , ὑψηλὰ but ἀλλὰ enjoy the company συναπαγόμενοι. of the τοῖς lowly. ταπεινοῖς {Do} not μὴ be γίνεσθε conceited φρόνιμοι . . . παρ’ . . . . ἑαυτοῖς.
Rom 12:17 Do not repay anyone ἀποδιδόντες· . . . μηδενὶ evil κακὸν for ἀντὶ evil. κακοῦ Carefully consider προνοούμενοι what is right καλὰ in the eyes of ἐνώπιον everybody πάντων . . . . ἀνθρώπων·
Rom 12:18 If [it is] εἰ possible δυνατόν, - τὸ on ἐξ your [part], ὑμῶν live at peace εἰρηνεύοντες· with μετὰ everyone πάντων . . . . ἀνθρώπων
Rom 12:19 {Do} not μὴ avenge ἐκδικοῦντες, yourselves, ἑαυτοὺς beloved, ἀγαπητοί, but ἀλλὰ leave δότε room τόπον - τῇ for [God’s] wrath. ὀργῇ· For γάρ it is written: γέγραπται “Vengeance [is] ἐκδίκησις, Mine, “Ἐμοὶ I ἐγὼ will repay, ἀνταποδώσω, says λέγει [the] Lord.” Κύριος.”
Rom 12:20 On the contrary, Ἀλλὰ “If “Ἐὰν your σου, - ὁ enemy ἐχθρός is hungry, πεινᾷ feed ψώμιζε him; αὐτόν· if ἐὰν he is thirsty, διψᾷ, vvv αὐτόν· give him a drink. πότιζε For γὰρ in so doing ποιῶν . . . , τοῦτο you will heap σωρεύσεις burning πυρὸς coals ἄνθρακας on ἐπὶ his αὐτοῦ.” - τὴν head.” κεφαλὴν
Rom 12:21 {Do} not Μὴ be overcome νικῶ by ὑπὸ - τοῦ evil, κακοῦ, but ἀλλὰ overcome νίκα - τὸ evil κακόν. with ἐν - τῷ good. ἀγαθῷ

Give this a listen and come back to me

0:00
most of you know that a few months ago
0:02
we had a strange fire conference and we
0:04
talked about the aberrant charismatic
0:07
Pentecostal movement that has dominated
0:08
the evangelical landscape and even
0:11
spread around the world somewhere
0:13
between half a billion and 750 million
0:16
people claim to be a part of this
0:18
movement and it raised the question of
0:21
what is called cessationism that kind of
0:25
awkward word simply defines the belief
0:28
that the New Testament miraculous gifts
0:32
ceased they ceased that has been the
0:37
normative historical view of the church
0:40
through the church's life going all the
0:44
way back to the New Testament and on
0:46
into the modern era but since the turn
0:49
of the 20th century there has been the
0:53
birth of a vast range Pentecostal and
0:56
charismatic movement that wants to
0:59
affirm that all the sign gifts
1:01
miraculous gifts are back including
1:05
prophets including apostles and you
1:09
might say well does it really matter is
1:11
it a peripheral issue well it depends on
1:14
what you mean by peripheral it doesn't
1:17
affect the gospel necessarily but but it
1:21
affects something very very important
1:23
that is related to the gospel and that
1:25
is divine revelation because if you're
1:28
saying God is still speaking through
1:31
prophets still speaking through apostles
1:34
then he's not finished speaking so that
1:38
I need my Bible and a prophet or
1:42
prophets my Bible and some apostles that
1:46
I don't have everything sufficient in
1:49
the Word of God so I need some
1:52
miraculous gift to get me through some
1:54
miraculous word of knowledge word of
1:57
wisdom some miraculous insight some
1:59
divine experience some transcendent kind
2:04
of thing or I can't make it as a
2:07
Christian I I need that that introduces
2:11
an entire
2:12
really out of control element to the
2:16
closed Canon of Scripture and an
2:19
entirely out of control element to
2:22
Christian living because people then are
2:25
subject to the whim of the people they
2:29
trust as prophets and apostles and there
2:32
are subject to the whim of what they
2:34
feel is a word from God or a message
2:36
from God they're subject to promises of
2:41
healing and wealth and all of that that
2:45
are illegitimate promises so first of
2:49
all it's it's not true it's not right to
2:52
propagate something it's not true
2:54
secondly it clouds the issue of the Word
2:58
of God being sufficient and complete and
3:02
thirdly it adds an element into-----------------------timestamps from this video.
3

"Charismatic style"--Scripture is therefore not sufficient and the Reformers despised.

 

[Johann]

No worries, we're all trying to sort this out. It just seems so hard to nail it down in words without appearing to be over-emphasizing or dismissive of one side or the other. Maybe it's just a case of which side anyone needs reminding or encouraging in at any given time. We need to try and have the right balance, that's all.

I've been in places where the word of God was sidelined in the pursuit of "spiritual experiences", and I've seen the opposite situation as well where the word was emphasized but the Spirit was quenched and not allowed any rein at all. I consider that they are both wrong.

I believe those grounded and rooted in Scriptures with a daily prayer life and the Holy Spirit illuminating the Scriptures and a style of life yielded to the crucified and risen Messiah is far more important than spiritual experiences.

 

[Lizbeth]

There seems to be a serious miscommunication between me and you and yes, the Spirit and the D'varim work together.
Who said we need to pray to our bibles?
It would appear that Scripture is not enough, there must be "something more" experiences, dreams, visions, healings-hearing voices etc. This MUST/DEI be the norm-here is my question to you-what is your calling and gift in the body of Christ? Are you obedient to your calling and gift-that's IF you have a calling or a gift.

Do you think I sit with my head in the Bible and don't DO anything for the Kingdom of God?



Rom 12:4 - γὰρ Just as καθάπερ each of us has ἔχομεν, one ἑνὶ body σώματι with ἐν many πολλὰ members, μέλη and δὲ not οὐ all πάντα - τὰ members μέλη have ἔχει the τὴν same αὐτὴν function, πρᾶξιν,
Rom 12:5 so οὕτως in ἐν Christ Χριστῷ, we who are ἐσμεν - οἱ many πολλοὶ [are] one ἓν body σῶμά - , τὸ and δὲ each καθ’ member μέλη. [belongs to] one εἷς another. ἀλλήλων
Rom 12:6 - δὲ We have Ἔχοντες different διάφορα, gifts χαρίσματα according to κατὰ the τὴν grace χάριν - τὴν given δοθεῖσαν us. ἡμῖν If [someone’s gift is] εἴτε prophecy, προφητείαν, [let him use] it κατὰ - τὴν in proportion ἀναλογίαν to [his] τῆς faith; πίστεως·
Rom 12:7 [if it is] εἴτε serving, διακονίαν, - ἐν - τῇ let him serve; διακονίᾳ· [if it is] εἴτε - ὁ teaching, διδάσκων, - ἐν - τῇ let him teach; διδασκαλίᾳ·
Rom 12:8 [if it is] εἴτε - ὁ encouraging, παρακαλῶν, - ἐν - τῇ let him encourage; παρακλήσει· [if it is] ὁ giving, μεταδιδοὺς - ἐν let him give generously; ἁπλότητι, [if it is] ὁ leading, προϊστάμενος [let him lead] with ἐν diligence; σπουδῇ, [if it is] ὁ showing mercy, ἐλεῶν [let him do it] ἐν cheerfully. ἱλαρότητι.
Marks of the True Christian
Rom 12:9 - Ἡ Love ἀγάπη must be sincere. ἀνυπόκριτος. Detest ἀποστυγοῦντες what [is] τὸ evil; πονηρόν, cling to κολλώμενοι what [is] τῷ good. ἀγαθῷ·
Rom 12:10 Be devoted φιλόστοργοι, to εἰς one another ἀλλήλους - τῇ in brotherly love. φιλαδελφίᾳ Outdo yourselves προηγούμενοι, - τῇ in honoring τιμῇ one another. ἀλλήλους
Rom 12:11 Do not let μὴ [your] τῇ zeal σπουδῇ subside; ὀκνηροί, keep your spiritual fervor ζέοντες, . . . τῷ . . . , πνεύματι serving δουλεύοντες, the τῷ Lord. Κυρίῳ
Rom 12:12 Be joyful χαίροντες, - τῇ in hope, ἐλπίδι patient ὑπομένοντες, - τῇ in affliction, θλίψει persistent προσκαρτεροῦντες, - τῇ in prayer. προσευχῇ
Rom 12:13 Share with κοινωνοῦντες, the τῶν saints ἁγίων who [are] ταῖς in need. χρείαις Practice διώκοντες. - τὴν hospitality. φιλοξενίαν
Rom 12:14 Bless Εὐλογεῖτε those who τοὺς persecute διώκοντας you. [ὑμᾶς], Bless εὐλογεῖτε and καὶ {do} not μὴ curse. καταρᾶσθε.
Rom 12:15 Rejoice χαίρειν with μετὰ those who rejoice; χαιρόντων, weep κλαίειν with μετὰ those who weep. κλαιόντων.
Rom 12:16 Live in harmony φρονοῦντες· . . . τὸ . . . αὐτὸ with εἰς one another. ἀλλήλους vvv μὴ Do not be proud φρονοῦντες . . . τὰ . . . , ὑψηλὰ but ἀλλὰ enjoy the company συναπαγόμενοι. of the τοῖς lowly. ταπεινοῖς {Do} not μὴ be γίνεσθε conceited φρόνιμοι . . . παρ’ . . . . ἑαυτοῖς.
Rom 12:17 Do not repay anyone ἀποδιδόντες· . . . μηδενὶ evil κακὸν for ἀντὶ evil. κακοῦ Carefully consider προνοούμενοι what is right καλὰ in the eyes of ἐνώπιον everybody πάντων . . . . ἀνθρώπων·
Rom 12:18 If [it is] εἰ possible δυνατόν, - τὸ on ἐξ your [part], ὑμῶν live at peace εἰρηνεύοντες· with μετὰ everyone πάντων . . . . ἀνθρώπων
Rom 12:19 {Do} not μὴ avenge ἐκδικοῦντες, yourselves, ἑαυτοὺς beloved, ἀγαπητοί, but ἀλλὰ leave δότε room τόπον - τῇ for [God’s] wrath. ὀργῇ· For γάρ it is written: γέγραπται “Vengeance [is] ἐκδίκησις, Mine, “Ἐμοὶ I ἐγὼ will repay, ἀνταποδώσω, says λέγει [the] Lord.” Κύριος.”
Rom 12:20 On the contrary, Ἀλλὰ “If “Ἐὰν your σου, - ὁ enemy ἐχθρός is hungry, πεινᾷ feed ψώμιζε him; αὐτόν· if ἐὰν he is thirsty, διψᾷ, vvv αὐτόν· give him a drink. πότιζε For γὰρ in so doing ποιῶν . . . , τοῦτο you will heap σωρεύσεις burning πυρὸς coals ἄνθρακας on ἐπὶ his αὐτοῦ.” - τὴν head.” κεφαλὴν
Rom 12:21 {Do} not Μὴ be overcome νικῶ by ὑπὸ - τοῦ evil, κακοῦ, but ἀλλὰ overcome νίκα - τὸ evil κακόν. with ἐν - τῷ good. ἀγαθῷ

Give this a listen and come back to me

0:00
most of you know that a few months ago
0:02
we had a strange fire conference and we
0:04
talked about the aberrant charismatic
0:07
Pentecostal movement that has dominated
0:08
the evangelical landscape and even
0:11
spread around the world somewhere
0:13
between half a billion and 750 million
0:16
people claim to be a part of this
0:18
movement and it raised the question of
0:21
what is called cessationism that kind of
0:25
awkward word simply defines the belief
0:28
that the New Testament miraculous gifts
0:32
ceased they ceased that has been the
0:37
normative historical view of the church
0:40
through the church's life going all the
0:44
way back to the New Testament and on
0:46
into the modern era but since the turn
0:49
of the 20th century there has been the
0:53
birth of a vast range Pentecostal and
0:56
charismatic movement that wants to
0:59
affirm that all the sign gifts
1:01
miraculous gifts are back including
1:05
prophets including apostles and you
1:09
might say well does it really matter is
1:11
it a peripheral issue well it depends on
1:14
what you mean by peripheral it doesn't
1:17
affect the gospel necessarily but but it
1:21
affects something very very important
1:23
that is related to the gospel and that
1:25
is divine revelation because if you're
1:28
saying God is still speaking through
1:31
prophets still speaking through apostles
1:34
then he's not finished speaking so that
1:38
I need my Bible and a prophet or
1:42
prophets my Bible and some apostles that
1:46
I don't have everything sufficient in
1:49
the Word of God so I need some
1:52
miraculous gift to get me through some
1:54
miraculous word of knowledge word of
1:57
wisdom some miraculous insight some
1:59
divine experience some transcendent kind
2:04
of thing or I can't make it as a
2:07
Christian I I need that that introduces
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an entire
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really out of control element to the
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closed Canon of Scripture and an
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entirely out of control element to
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Christian living because people then are
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subject to the whim of the people they
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trust as prophets and apostles and there
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are subject to the whim of what they
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feel is a word from God or a message
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from God they're subject to promises of
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healing and wealth and all of that that
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are illegitimate promises so first of
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all it's it's not true it's not right to
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propagate something it's not true
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secondly it clouds the issue of the Word
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of God being sufficient and complete and
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thirdly it adds an element into-----------------------timestamps from this video.
3

"Charismatic style"--Scripture is therefore not sufficient and the Reformers despised.

No, you seem to be taking me amiss.........I meant that I'm sure nobody here is replacing God with their bible but that we all have a living relationship with the Lord, in whatever form that takes for each one individually.

If it is the Lord speaking to someone (however He is speaking) we generally have an inner witness of the Spirit concerning it. As well as testing by the word of God, whether what we're hearing is consistent or inconsistent with His word and character. I don't believe in cessationism......spiritual gifts and callings are given without repentance. But I am against chasing after "experiences" as that is idolatrous.....we just pray and seek the Lord alone, and if He wants to speak in some way He will speak as He wills, when He wills. I was born again in a cessationist church....but I knew as soon as I found out what they believed that it was wrong.....because my salvation and circumstances surrounding it was a miracle, so how could I believe that God doesn't do "miraculous" things today.

I don't understand why anyone would assume that the Lord would "stop speaking" to us, unless it says that in the bible somewhere I'm not aware of. He is a Person.

 

[Lizbeth]

I believe those grounded and rooted in Scriptures with a daily prayer life and the Holy Spirit illuminating the Scriptures and a style of life yielded to the crucified and risen Messiah is far more important than spiritual experiences.

That is all a spiritual experience in itself. :) But I understanding what you're saying.

 

[Johann]

No, you seem to be taking me amiss.........I meant that I'm sure nobody here is replacing God with their bible but that we all have a living relationship with the Lord, in whatever form that takes for each one individually.

If it is the Lord speaking to someone (however He is speaking) we generally have an inner witness of the Spirit concerning it. As well as testing by the word of God, whether what we're hearing is consistent or inconsistent with His word and character. I don't believe in cessationism......spiritual gifts and callings are given without repentance. But I am against chasing after "experiences" as that is idolatrous.....we just pray and seek the Lord alone, and if He wants to speak in some way He will speak as He wills, when He wills. I was born again in a cessationist church....but I knew as soon as I found out what they believed that it was wrong.....because my salvation and circumstances surrounding it was a miracle, so how could I believe that God doesn't do "miraculous" things today.

I don't understand why anyone would assume that the Lord would "stop speaking" to us, unless it says that in the bible somewhere I'm not aware of. He is a Person.

Tell me @Lizbeth how is the Holy Spirit co-witnessing with your spirit that you are a son or daughter of God? Audible voice?

How is the Holy Spirit 'speaking" to you? Audibly?
Daily, as I read and study the Scriptures I get excited, and this is how I believe the Holy Spirit is leading and guiding me and I can never exhaust a chapter since I find new illumination a week later as I chew the cud, meditating and praying. Now THIS is miraculous since the more I ingest the words as it stands written the more I believe 2 Pet 1.19

I'm afraid I don't hold to the Charismatic churches worship and speaking in tongues, open confessions to a pastor, healings etc. I have NEVER seen a healing and believe me, I was heavily involved in the Protestant and Charismatic "movement" when growing up in Brakpan, Springs, Benoni and Jo'burg.

"And we have the word of prophecy made more sure, and you will do well to pay attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts." (2 Peter 1:19, ESV)

This verse emphasizes the reliability and authority of Scripture (the word of prophecy) as a guide for believers. Peter encourages his readers to heed the teachings and prophecies found in the Scriptures, viewing them as a trustworthy source of guidance and illumination in a world filled with spiritual darkness.

Key points from this verse include:

Authority of Scripture: The "word of prophecy" refers to the teachings, prophecies, and revelations found in the Scriptures, which are considered more reliable and trustworthy than personal experiences or human wisdom alone.

Guidance in Darkness: The Scriptures are likened to a lamp shining in a dark place, providing direction, clarity, and understanding amidst spiritual challenges and uncertainties.

Encouragement to Pay Attention: Peter exhorts believers to pay careful attention to the Scriptures, recognizing their importance in illuminating spiritual truths and preparing them for the coming of Christ (symbolized by the day dawning and the morning star rising).

Overall, 2 Peter 1:19 underscores the foundational role of Scripture in the life of a believer, highlighting its authority, reliability, and capacity to guide and inspire faithfulness in Christ.

Context

Authorship and Audience: The letter is attributed to the apostle Peter and is addressed to believers who have received the same precious faith as the apostles (2 Peter 1:1).

Call to Christian Virtue: Peter begins by urging believers to grow in Christian virtue and knowledge (2 Peter 1:5-8), emphasizing qualities like faith, moral excellence, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love.

The Transfiguration Account: In verses 16-18 of chapter 1, Peter recounts his experience of witnessing the transfiguration of Jesus on the mountain, where he saw Jesus in His glory alongside Moses and Elijah. This event affirmed Jesus' divine nature and validated Him as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.

The Sure Word of Prophecy: Following the account of the transfiguration, Peter declares in verse 19 (KJV), "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts."

Meaning and Application: Peter contrasts the experience of the transfiguration, which was a powerful and confirming event, with the enduring reliability of the Scriptures (the word of prophecy). He encourages believers to pay close attention to the Scriptures, which serve as a light in the darkness of the world. The Scriptures not only contain prophecies about Jesus and His coming, but they also provide guidance and illumination for believers as they await the fulfillment of God's promises.

Warning Against False Teachers: Throughout the letter, Peter also warns against false teachers who distort the truth and lead people astray (2 Peter 2:1-22). He emphasizes the importance of holding fast to the true teachings of the apostles and Scripture.

You might think I put God in a box, far from it, I worship Christ Jesus and Him alone and follow His Imperatives.

Johann.

 

[marks]

I don't understand why anyone would assume that the Lord would "stop speaking" to us, unless it says that in the bible somewhere I'm not aware of. He is a Person.

For me, this is what I perceive to be a big part of the witness of the Holy Spirit. There is the certain knowledge inside me. There is the transformation of who I am. There is the opening of the Scriptures. And there is the Person Whom I know, a Spirit Being Who speaks with me, works with me, tells me things, answers questions, a relationship with a Person. He has not spoken to me audibly, well, maybe one time, but He speaks in my heart/mind. There is no question for me of Who this Person is. He is powerful, and He loves me, and He wants me to be very sure, and has done things so that I can be very sure.



Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

Tell me @Lizbeth how is the Holy Spirit co-witnessing with your spirit that you are a son or daughter of God? Audible voice?

How is the Holy Spirit 'speaking" to you? Audibly?
Daily, as I read and study the Scriptures I get excited, and this is how I believe the Holy Spirit is leading and guiding me and I can never exhaust a chapter since I find new illumination a week later as I chew the cud, meditating and praying. Now THIS is miraculous since the more I ingest the words as it stands written the more I believe 2 Pet 1.19

I'm afraid I don't hold to the Charismatic churches worship and speaking in tongues, open confessions to a pastor, healings etc. I have NEVER seen a healing and believe me, I was heavily involved in the Protestant and Charismatic "movement" when growing up in Brakpan, Springs, Benoni and Jo'burg.

"And we have the word of prophecy made more sure, and you will do well to pay attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts." (2 Peter 1:19, ESV)

This verse emphasizes the reliability and authority of Scripture (the word of prophecy) as a guide for believers. Peter encourages his readers to heed the teachings and prophecies found in the Scriptures, viewing them as a trustworthy source of guidance and illumination in a world filled with spiritual darkness.

Key points from this verse include:

Authority of Scripture: The "word of prophecy" refers to the teachings, prophecies, and revelations found in the Scriptures, which are considered more reliable and trustworthy than personal experiences or human wisdom alone.

Guidance in Darkness: The Scriptures are likened to a lamp shining in a dark place, providing direction, clarity, and understanding amidst spiritual challenges and uncertainties.

Encouragement to Pay Attention: Peter exhorts believers to pay careful attention to the Scriptures, recognizing their importance in illuminating spiritual truths and preparing them for the coming of Christ (symbolized by the day dawning and the morning star rising).

Overall, 2 Peter 1:19 underscores the foundational role of Scripture in the life of a believer, highlighting its authority, reliability, and capacity to guide and inspire faithfulness in Christ.

Context

Authorship and Audience: The letter is attributed to the apostle Peter and is addressed to believers who have received the same precious faith as the apostles (2 Peter 1:1).

Call to Christian Virtue: Peter begins by urging believers to grow in Christian virtue and knowledge (2 Peter 1:5-8), emphasizing qualities like faith, moral excellence, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love.

The Transfiguration Account: In verses 16-18 of chapter 1, Peter recounts his experience of witnessing the transfiguration of Jesus on the mountain, where he saw Jesus in His glory alongside Moses and Elijah. This event affirmed Jesus' divine nature and validated Him as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.

The Sure Word of Prophecy: Following the account of the transfiguration, Peter declares in verse 19 (KJV), "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts."

Meaning and Application: Peter contrasts the experience of the transfiguration, which was a powerful and confirming event, with the enduring reliability of the Scriptures (the word of prophecy). He encourages believers to pay close attention to the Scriptures, which serve as a light in the darkness of the world. The Scriptures not only contain prophecies about Jesus and His coming, but they also provide guidance and illumination for believers as they await the fulfillment of God's promises.

Warning Against False Teachers: Throughout the letter, Peter also warns against false teachers who distort the truth and lead people astray (2 Peter 2:1-22). He emphasizes the importance of holding fast to the true teachings of the apostles and Scripture.

You might think I put God in a box, far from it, I worship Christ Jesus and Him alone and follow His Imperatives.

Johann.

Amen, there is always something new to glean in the scriptures. But you are talking as if there is some kind of competition between "hearing" from God and the scriptures. They are not mutually exclusive by any means.

I came to faith when I was just about to graduate from nursing school. I had a child I was raising on my own and was worried and distressed about how me working crazy shifts would affect him and was praying and asking God what to do. I heard a very clear "part-time"...it was so distinct and clear it sounded audible but was on the inside of me. I didn't know how things worked in hospitals yet but I soon found a position that had regular fixed part time shifts but was very flexible and I could easily add shifts that worked for my needs and I wasn't locked into a rotation that involved night shifts. I didn't know this was even possible, but God did. Another time maybe about a year later I was about to make another important decision that I was having doubts about...the Lord spoke a word of wisdom to me through someone I was working with who was also Christian.....and I chose to ignore it. In my heart I felt it was God but my mind wasn't sure, not having any experience yet......I asked an elder at the cessationist church about it and he shrugged it off. That was before I knew their beliefs in that regard. Well I sure did live to regret ignoring the word of the Lord I can tell you, and it didn't just affect me but even worse, my son as well. But at least I learned some things, albeit the hard way, about how God may speak in various ways, and I learned to recognize that inner knowing (unction/witness) to be from the Lord......and also I learned to fear Him.....not wise to ignore the word of the Lord. And oh yes, I learned to not believe people over God. ;)

 

[marks]

But at least I learned some things, albeit the hard way, about how God may speak in various ways, and I learned to recognize that inner knowing (unction/witness) to be from the Lord......and also I learned to fear Him.....not wise to ignore the word of the Lord. And oh yes, I learned to not believe people over God. ;)

The first time I recall God addressing me directly like this, well, I have to tell the story.

For years my garage door opener wouldn't work right. I had to open the battery compartment, squeeze the contacts on the battery while pushing the button. If I did it right, the door would open.

One day, I was approaching the garage, holding the clicker in my hand, and I was stopped in my track by this voice inside that said, "It will work now." At once I realized this was something different, my thoughts didn't "sound" that way. And what I was told, well, I just pressed the button, and the door opened. And years later, it's opened every time, and every time I use it, I remember His voice telling me, It will work now.

And I've since come to learn, He did this specifically so that I would know His voice. And I do know His voice.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

Amen, there is always something new to glean in the scriptures. But you are talking as if there is some kind of competition between "hearing" from God and the scriptures. They are not mutually exclusive by any means.

I came to faith when I was just about to graduate from nursing school. I had a child I was raising on my own and was worried and distressed about how me working crazy shifts would affect him and was praying and asking God what to do. I heard a very clear "part-time"...it was so distinct and clear it sounded audible but was on the inside of me. I didn't know how things worked in hospitals yet but I soon found a position that had regular fixed part time shifts but was very flexible and I could easily add shifts that worked for my needs and I wasn't locked into a rotation that involved night shifts. I didn't know this was even possible, but God did. Another time maybe about a year later I was about to make another important decision that I was having doubts about...the Lord spoke a word of wisdom to me through someone I was working with who was also Christian.....and I chose to ignore it. In my heart I felt it was God but my mind wasn't sure, not having any experience yet......I asked an elder at the cessationist church about it and he shrugged it off. That was before I knew their beliefs in that regard. Well I sure did live to regret ignoring the word of the Lord I can tell you, and it didn't just affect me but even worse, my son as well. But at least I learned some things, albeit the hard way, about how God may speak in various ways, and I learned to recognize that inner knowing (unction/witness) to be from the Lord......and also I learned to fear Him.....not wise to ignore the word of the Lord. And oh yes, I learned to not believe people over God. ;)

Thank you for not directly answer my questions.
Lot of experiences and "voices" attributed falsely to the Holy Spirit.

Correct you are-I don't believe people over the Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Johann]

The first time I recall God addressing me directly like this, well, I have to tell the story.

For years my garage door opener wouldn't work right. I had to open the battery compartment, squeeze the contacts on the battery while pushing the button. If I did it right, the door would open.

One day, I was approaching the garage, holding the clicker in my hand, and I was stopped in my track by this voice inside that said, "It will work now." At once I realized this was something different, my thoughts didn't "sound" that way. And what I was told, well, I just pressed the button, and the door opened. And years later, it's opened every time, and every time I use it, I remember His voice telling me, It will work now.

And I've since come to learn, He did this specifically so that I would know His voice. And I do know His voice.

Much love!

I bet you have thousands more "voices inside your head" experiences that you can tell me about-right?

Seeking the Spirit apart from the Word
The charismatic movement began barely a hundred years ago, but its influence on evangelicalism can hardly be overstated. Its chief legacy has been an unprecedented interest in extrabiblical revelation. Millions influenced by charismatic doctrine are convinced that God speaks to them directly. "The Lord told me ..." has become the favorite cliché among these Christians.

Not all who believe that God speaks to them make prophetic pronouncements as outlandish as those broadcast by charismatic televangelists, of course. But they still believe God gives them extrabiblical messages—either through an audible voice, a vision, a voice in their heads, or simply an internal impression. In most cases, their "prophecies" are comparatively trivial. But the difference between them and Hinn's predictions is merely one of scale, not of substance.

The notion that God is giving messages to Christians today has received support from some surprising sources. Wayne Grudem, professor of biblical and systematic theology at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, believes God gives Christians prophetic messages by bringing specific thoughts to mind. Such impressions should be reported as postapostolic, nonbinding prophecy, he says.

Similar ideas have found sweeping acceptance even among noncharismatic Christians. Evangelicals have eagerly devoured Experiencing God, by Henry Blackaby and Claude King, which suggests that the main way the Holy Spirit leads believers is by speaking to them directly. According to Blackaby, when God gives an individual a message that pertains to the church, it should be shared with the whole body. As a result, extrabiblical "words from the Lord" are now commonplace even among noncharismatic evangelicals.

Why do so many modern Christians seek revelation from God through means other than Scripture? Certainly not because it is a reliable way to discover truth. All sides admit that modern prophecies are often completely erroneous. In my book Charismatic Chaos, I quote one leading "prophet" who was thrilled because he believed that two-thirds of his prophecies were accurate. "Well that's better than it's ever been up to now, you know. That's the highest level it's ever been."

In other words, modern prophecy is not a much more reliable way to discern truth than a Magic Eight-Ball or Tarot cards. And, I would add, it is equally superstitious. There is not warrant anywhere in Scripture for Christians to listen for fresh revelation from God beyond what he has already given us in his written Word. In fact, Scripture unsparingly condemns all who speak even one word falsely or presumptuously in the Lord's name (Deut. 18:20-22). But such warnings are simply ignored these days by those who claim to have heard afresh from God.

Not surprisingly, wherever there is a preoccupation with "fresh" prophecy, there is inevitably a neglect of the Scriptures. After all, why be concerned with an ancient book if the living God communicates directly with us on a daily basis, however subtly? These fresh words of "revelation" naturally seem more relevant and more urgent than the familiar words of the Bible. Is it any wonder that they draw people away from Scripture?

The Sufficiency of Scripture
That is precisely why modern evangelicalism's infatuation with extrabiblical revelation is so dangerous. It is a return to medieval superstition and a departure from our fundamental conviction that the Bible is our sole, supreme, and sufficient authority for all of life. In other words, it represents a wholesale abandonment of the principle of sola Scriptura. Historic Protestantism is grounded in the conviction that the canon is closed. No "new" revelation is necessary because Scripture is complete and absolutely sufficient.

Scripture itself is clear that the day of God's speaking directly to his people through various prophetic words and visions is past. The truth God has revealed in Christ—including the complete New Testament canon—is his final word (Heb. 1:1-2; cf. Jude 3; Rev. 22:18-19).

Scripture—the written Word of God—is perfectly sufficient, containing all the revelation we need. Paul tells Timothy: "From infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Tim. 3:15-17).

That passage makes two very important statements. First, "all Scripture is God-breathed." Scripture speaks with the authority of God himself! It is certain, reliable, and true. Jesus himself prayed in John 17:17, "Your word is truth." Psalm 119:160 says, "All your words are true." These statements set Scripture above every human opinion, every speculation, and every emotional sensation. Scripture alone stands as definitive truth. It speaks with an authority that transcends every other voice.

Second, the passage teaches that Scripture is utterly sufficient, "able to make you wise for salvation" and able to make you "thoroughly equipped for every good work." What clearer affirmation of the absolute sufficiency of Scripture could anyone ask for? Those who seek fresh messages from God have, in effect, scorned the absolute certainty and absolute sufficiency of the written Word of God. And they have set in its place their own fallen and fallible imaginations.

Does this mean God has stopped speaking? Certainly not, but he speaks today through his Word. Does the Spirit of God move our hearts and impress us with specific duties or callings? Certainly, but he works through the Word of God to do that. Such experiences are in no sense prophetic or authoritative. They are not revelation, but the effect of illumination, when the Holy Spirit applies the Word of God to our hearts and opens our spiritual eyes to its truth.

We must guard carefully against allowing our experience and our own subjective thoughts and imaginations to eclipse the authority and the certainty of the more sure Word.