Deconstruction Part 2: Into Apostolicity

[marks]

Right, let's run this again,

Rom 7:7 Knowledge of Sin Comes through the Law
¶ What then shall we say? Is the law sin? May it never be! But I would not have known sin except through the law, for I would not have known covetousness if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” [A quotation from Exod 20:17; Deut 5:21]
Rom 7:8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin is dead.
Rom 7:9 And I was alive once, apart from the law, but when [*Here “when ” is supplied as a component of the participle (“came”) which is understood as temporal] the commandment came, sin sprang to life
Rom 7:10 and I died, and this commandment which was to lead to life was found with respect to me to lead to death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me .
Rom 7:12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Rom 7:13 Internal Conflict with Sin [Not inspired]
¶ Therefore, did that which is good become death to me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be recognized as sin, producing death through what is good for me, in order that sin might become sinful to an extraordinary degree through the commandment.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold into slavery to sin [Literally “sold under sin”].
Rom 7:15 For what I am doing I do not understand, because what I want to do , this I do not practice, but what I hate, this I do.
Rom 7:16 But if what I do not want to do , this I do, I agree with the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 But now I am no longer the one doing it, but sin that lives in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that good does not live in me, that is, in my flesh. For the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I want to do , I do not do, but the evil that I do not want to do , this I do.
Rom 7:20 But if what I do not want to do , this I am doing, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin that lives in me.

Rom 7:21 ¶ Consequently, I find the principle with me, the one who wants to do good, that evil is present with me. [Or “in me”]
Rom 7:22 For I joyfully agree with the law of God in my inner person,
Rom 7:23 but I observe another law in my members, at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that exists in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am ! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be [Some manuscripts have “But thanks be ”] to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself with my mind am enslaved to the law of God, but with my flesh I am enslaved to the law of sin.

Paul the regenerate man, in this passage, or not?

I meant about the love . . . both the reaction to the post, and in your posts.

In this passage, Paul, the regenerate man, shows us why we still have a problem with our flesh. We are regenerate, the flesh is not.

I liken this to driving a wrecked car. I'm the driver, I'm new and righteous and holy, these being imparted to me by God, but I'm driving a wrecked car (my flesh), and it's pretty hard to steer, and the brakes aren't good either! But the longer I live this way, the better I get at steering and braking and all, and I find some repairs going on, and that, plus my practice, yeild a better result.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

I meant about the love . . . both the reaction to the post, and in your posts.

In this passage, Paul, the regenerate man, shows us why we still have a problem with our flesh. We are regenerate, the flesh is not.

I liken this to driving a wrecked car. I'm the driver, I'm new and righteous and holy, these being imparted to me by God, but I'm driving a wrecked car (my flesh), and it's pretty hard to steer, and the brakes aren't good either! But the longer I live this way, the better I get at steering and braking and all, and I find some repairs going on, and that, plus my practice, yeild a better result.

Much love!

Love your analogies and I fully concur, thank you for your time and patience brother. I would love to sit and have a chat with you with our bibles open, maybe one day, or in heaven.
You must be tired so I'll let you off the hook, so to speak.
Shalom marks
Johann.

 

[Episkopos]

I meant about the love . . . both the reaction to the post, and in your posts.

In this passage, Paul, the regenerate man, shows us why we still have a problem with our flesh. We are regenerate, the flesh is not.

I liken this to driving a wrecked car.

Paul says "in me dwells no good thing. " Christianity is about what we do outwardly. Buddhism and New age thinking dichotomize the inward state and the outward acts. There is no "deep truth" in yourself that is not coming out. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks...and acts. We will be judged by our works, not some hidden inward condition. So then God is acting from within perhaps...but Christianity is an outward religion. That's why we can't destroy human righteousness to arrive at a religion of beliefs. No, we show we are in Christ by walking as He walked.

I'm the driver, I'm new and righteous and holy, these being imparted to me by God, but I'm driving a wrecked car (my flesh), and it's pretty hard to steer, and the brakes aren't good either! But the longer I live this way, the better I get at steering and braking and all, and I find some repairs going on, and that, plus my practice, yeild a better result.

Much love!

Always leaning...??? The longer you live that way the more iniquity you will embrace....going back to Rom. 6 and the justification of an initial grace... unless you see your responsibility in your every word and deed and seek God's face for the full measure of grace that overcomes sin. We can go either forward or backward when we realize that we are sold under sin in the depth of our being. Both the outer man and inner man are our responsibility. The sin in us is the ego that needs to be crucified by the Lord. We can forsake the cause of the flesh but we can't crucify the flesh out of us by a steady improvement. No, we need to die in the ego part of us in order to be set free in the inner man to be connected to God.

Paul goes from...No longer I (inner man) but sin in me (ego)...to....no longer I (ego) but Christ in Me (empowering the inner man).

Between Romans 7 and Romans 8 is the power of the cross. The 2nd cut that causes the believer to enter personally INTO Christ...to be where He is and walk as He walked.

 

[marks]

Paul says "in me dwells no good thing. " Christianity is about what we do outwardly. Buddhism and New age thinking dichotomize the inward state and the outward acts. There is no deep truth in yourself that is not coming out. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks...and acts. We will be judged by our works, no t some hidden inward condition. So then God is acting from within perhaps...but Christianity is an outward religion. That's why we can't destroy human righteousness to arrive at a religion of beliefs. No, we show we are in Christ by walking as He walked.

Always leaning...??? The longer you live that way the more iniquity you will embrace....going back to Rom. 6 and the justification of an initial grace... unless you see your responsibility in your every word and deed and seek God's face for the full measure of grace that overcomes sin. We can go either forward or backward when we realize that we are sold under sin in the depth of our being. Both the outer man and inner man are our responsibility. The sin in us is the ego that needs to be crucified by the Lord. We can forsake the cause of the flesh but we can't crucify the flesh out of us by a steady improvement. No, we need to die in the ego part of us in order to be set free in the inner man to be connected to God.

Paul goes from...No longer I (inner man) but sin in me (ego)...to....no longer I (ego) but Christ in Me (empowering the inner man).

Between Romans 7 and Romans 8 is the power of the cross. The 2nd cut that causes the believer to enter personally INTO Christ...to be where He is and walk as He walked.

I have no interest in your mischaracterizations of me.

You yourself have said that you are not now "walking where He is", so what about that? What you preach you do not do.

Even so, the Bible describes something very different, and I will continue with that.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

We can forsake the cause of the flesh but we can't crucify the flesh out of us by a steady improvement. No, we need to die in the ego part of us in order to be set free in the inner man to be connected to God.

You are in error here-We are to crucify AND put to death whatever belongs to our earthly nature. And you say no--?

Galatians 5:24 (NIV):
"Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

Morphology, Syntax, and Grammar Analysis:

"Those who belong to Christ Jesus"

Morphology:

"Those" (οἱ) is a definite article in the nominative plural, indicating a specific group.
"Belong" (ἐστὶν) is a present tense verb in the third person plural, indicating continuous state or existence.
"To Christ Jesus" (Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ) is a genitive phrase, indicating possession or association with Christ Jesus.
Syntax and Grammar:

The phrase functions as the subject of the sentence. It describes the group of people who are in a particular relationship with Christ Jesus.
"have crucified the flesh"

Morphology:
"Have crucified" (ἐσταύρωσαν) is an aorist tense verb in the third person plural, indicating a past action with completed aspect. It comes from the root verb "σταυρόω" (stauroo), which means "to crucify."
"The flesh" (τὴν σάρκα) is a accusative singular noun, indicating the direct object of the verb "crucified."
Syntax and Grammar:
This phrase is the main predicate of the sentence, indicating the action performed by the subject ("those who belong to Christ Jesus").
"with its passions and desires"

Morphology:
"Passions" (παθήμασιν) and "desires" (ἐπιθυμίαις) are both dative plural nouns.
They describe the characteristics of "the flesh" (τὴν σάρκα), indicating what has been crucified.
Syntax and Grammar:
These nouns are in the dative case, indicating the manner or means by which "the flesh" has been crucified.
Meaning:

Galatians 5:24 teaches that those who are united with Christ Jesus through faith have undergone a decisive action in the past: they have crucified the flesh along with its passions and desires.

"Those who belong to Christ Jesus" refers to believers who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
"Have crucified the flesh" signifies a completed action in the past. It metaphorically describes the believer's decisive act of putting to death the sinful nature ("the flesh").
"With its passions and desires" specifies what has been crucified—the sinful inclinations and desires that characterize the fallen human nature.

This verse emphasizes the transformative power of the gospel: believers are not only forgiven and justified through faith in Christ but also empowered by the Holy Spirit to live a new life, characterized by victory over sinful desires and a commitment to live in accordance with God's will.


Galatians 5:24 (NIV):
"Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

Romans 8:13 (NIV):
"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."

Colossians 3:5 (NIV):
"Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry."

Galatians 2:20 (NIV):
"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

Romans 6:6 (NIV):
"For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin."

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV):
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."

You can exegete the other verses @Episkopos

 

[Episkopos]

I have no interest in your mischaracterizations of me.

Touchy-feeliness on your part doesn't mean I'm mischaracterizing. you. You are exposing your own bent here.

You yourself have said that you are not now "walking where He is", so what about that? What you preach you do not do.

I'm not talking about myself. Get over yourself.

Even so, the Bible describes something very different, and I will continue with that.

Much love!

The bible is not meant just for comfort, but is instruction into life. As such we can protect our flesh...or expose it. You expose your flesh at every turn.

 

[Episkopos]

You are in error here-We are to crucify AND put to death whatever belongs to our earthly nature. And you say no--?

Galatians 5:24 (NIV):
"Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

Those who belong to Christ have BEEN CRUCIFIED in the flesh. Jesus didn't crucify Himself. And we can't do it either. The power of the cross is not in our hands. Look deeper into how and why the bible is translated in a way that denies the power of God.

 

[Johann]

Those who belong to Christ have BEEN CRUCIFIED in the flesh. Jesus didn't crucify Himself. And we can't do it either. The power of the cross is not in our hands. Look deeper into how and why the bible is translated in a way that denies the power of God.

I have brother and still do a deep study on this-why would you deny what is clearly written in Scriptures?

Galatians 5:24 (NIV):
"Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." You say NO? Can't do it?

Galatians 5:24 (Textus Receptus):
"οἱ δὲ τοῦ Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ τὴν σάρκα ἐσταύρωσαν σὺν τοῖς παθήμασιν καὶ ταῖς ἐπιθυμίαις."

Here's the breakdown of the verb tenses and aspects:

"οἱ δὲ τοῦ Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ"

Syntax: "Those who belong to Christ Jesus."
Meaning: This phrase serves as the subject of the sentence, referring to believers who are united with Christ Jesus.
"τὴν σάρκα ἐσταύρωσαν"

Verb: "ἐσταύρωσαν" (estaurosan)
Tense/Aspect: Aorist tense - indicates a past completed action. The aorist tense views the action as a whole without specifying its duration or completion in relation to the present

Meaning: "Have crucified" or "crucified" in the sense of a decisive past action. This verb emphasizes the completed act of crucifying.
"σὺν τοῖς παθήμασιν καὶ ταῖς ἐπιθυμίαις"


Syntax: "With its passions and desires."

Meaning: These nouns are in the dative case, indicating the means or manner in which the flesh was crucified. They describe what was involved in the act of crucifixion—the passions and desires of the flesh.
Summary of Tenses and Aspects:

Aorist Tense: Describes the action of crucifying the flesh as a completed past action. It emphasizes the decisiveness and finality of the believers' past act of crucifying their sinful nature.
Meaning:
Galatians 5:24 from the Textus Receptus emphasizes that those who belong to Christ Jesus have decisively crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. The aorist tense used for "ἐσταύρωσαν" underscores the completed nature of this action, highlighting believers' past act of putting to death their sinful inclinations and behaviors through their identification with Christ's death on the cross. This verse encourages believers to live in the freedom and power of Christ's victory over sin.

In Greek grammar, the aorist tense typically denotes an action that is viewed as a simple event without specifying its duration or completion. There are different forms of the aorist tense in Greek verbs, and one of them is the second aorist.

Let's analyze the verb "ἐσταύρωσαν" (estaurosan) in Galatians 5:24 from the Textus Receptus:

Galatians 5:24 (Textus Receptus):
"οἱ δὲ τοῦ Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ τὴν σάρκα ἐσταύρωσαν σὺν τοῖς παθήμασιν καὶ ταῖς ἐπιθυμίαις."

Verb Analysis:

Verb: ἐσταύρωσαν (estaurosan)
Tense/Aspect: Aorist tense
Voice: Active voice
Mood: Indicative mood
Person/Number: Third person plural
Type of Aorist:

The verb ἐσταύρωσαν is indeed an aorist tense verb. In Greek, verbs are categorized into different types of aorists based on their stems and conjugations:
First Aorist: Typically formed by adding an augment (ε-) and thematic vowel changes to the verb stem.
Second Aorist: Formed with a different stem and different endings than the first aorist, often with specific patterns of conjugation.
Identifying the Second Aorist:

The second aorist in Greek verbs often lacks the characteristic -σα ending in the first aorist. Instead, it may have a different stem and endings. In the case of ἐσταύρωσαν:
The stem is "σταυρω-" (staurō-).
The ending "-σαν" is typical of third person plural aorist indicative active verbs.
Meaning:

ἐσταύρωσαν (estaurosan) translates to "they crucified" or "they have crucified." This verb describes a past completed action in the aorist tense, emphasizing the decisive and completed act of crucifying the flesh.

The use of the aorist tense here underscores the finality and completeness of believers' past action of crucifying their sinful nature with its passions and desires. It signifies a decisive break with the power of sin, accomplished through identification with Christ's death on the cross.

The verb ἐσταύρωσαν in Galatians 5:24 is indeed an aorist tense verb, specifically a second aorist. Its form and conjugation indicate a past completed action, highlighting the definitive act of believers crucifying their flesh with its sinful passions and desires. This understanding underscores the theological truth of believers' identification with Christ's death and the transformative power of the gospel in their lives.

We are to crucify OUR flesh with its passions and lusts-and you say no, how do you reconcile this contradiction and what is clearly written in Scripture?

 

[marks]

You are in error here-We are to crucify AND put to death whatever belongs to our earthly nature. And you say no--?

The idea presented is that having been reborn we have to still enter into Christ to achieve freedom from sin, while the Biblical teaching is that we are immersed into Christ, and are in Christ, this being inseparable from our rebirth. You are not reborn if you are not in Christ. If any be in Christ, he is a new creature.

We are not waiting to have freedom from sin, and power over sin, but we are all at that stage of maturity as we have so far attained. The more we mature, this to me means the more we are Christlike, and this happens more and more as time goes by. Hebrews 12 speaks of part of this process as a process, those who are exercised thereby. Paul wrote of himself that he had not yet attained conformability to Christ's death, which he presents as the apex of his life in this world.

And he likewise wrote, "I know nothing by myself, but yet I am not hereby justified", that Jesus is the One Who will judge, knowing our hearts and motives. So Paul acknowledged that even though his conscience was clean, that wasn't enough, because he wasn't a qualified judge, not even of himself.

So who are we, even if we are living in some visionary state(?), let's just say, to whatever heights we seem propelled in our lives, who are we to say, "I've attained conformability to Christ's death", that I'm as fully dead to sin and self as Christ hanging on the cross? We aren't qualified, and such a judgment of one's self is pure hubris.

For me another way to describe our spiritual maturity is to say how consistently we are walking in the Spirit. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit, these words likewise show that there is process, that we are in the Spirit, being immersed into Christ, and we are admonished to walk in the Spirit, and that walking in the Spirit, we won't do the flesh things.


I was just looking at that passage, "in the Spirit also we may walk", walk is translated from stoichomen, that's interesting. Wouldn't that mean something like building your lifestyle with those bricks? Do I have the right understanding?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Touchy-feeliness on your part

Here we go again, you pretty much go straight to this these days. Anyway, after years and years of seeing your ways, I'm telling you, I'm not interested.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

The idea presented is that having been reborn we have to still enter into Christ to achieve freedom from sin, while the Biblical teaching is that we are immersed into Christ, and are in Christ, this being inseparable from our rebirth. You are not reborn if you are not in Christ. If any be in Christ, he is a new creature.

We are not waiting to have freedom from sin, and power over sin, but we are all at that stage of maturity as we have so far attained. The more we mature, this to me means the more we are Christlike, and this happens more and more as time goes by. Hebrews 12 speaks of part of this process as a process, those who are exercised thereby. Paul wrote of himself that he had not yet attained conformability to Christ's death, which he presents as the apex of his life in this world.

And he likewise wrote, "I know nothing by myself, but yet I am not hereby justified", that Jesus is the One Who will judge, knowing our hearts and motives. So Paul acknowledged that even though his conscience was clean, that wasn't enough, because he wasn't a qualified judge, not even of himself.

So who are we, even if we are living in some visionary state(?), let's just say, to whatever heights we seem propelled in our lives, who are we to say, "I've attained conformability to Christ's death", that I'm as fully dead to sin and self as Christ hanging on the cross? We aren't qualified, and such a judgment of one's self is pure hubris.

For me another way to describe our spiritual maturity is to say how consistently we are walking in the Spirit. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit, these words likewise show that there is process, that we are in the Spirit, being immersed into Christ, and we are admonished to walk in the Spirit, and that walking in the Spirit, we won't do the flesh things.


I was just looking at that passage, "in the Spirit also we may walk", walk is translated from stoichomen, that's interesting. Wouldn't that mean something like building your lifestyle with those bricks? Do I have the right understanding?

Much love!

Correct you are here re building our style of life with bricks, are you saying we are not to crucify the flesh and passions? Or am I reading you wrong here brother. Then there is sanctification, seldom mentioned on this Forum and what that entails.

Metaphorical Usage:

To "walk by the Spirit" means to live in accordance with the Spirit's leading and empowerment. It involves aligning one's thoughts, actions, and attitudes with the principles and guidance of the Spirit.
Building Your Lifestyle:

Your analogy of "building your lifestyle with bricks" captures the essence well. Each decision, habit, and attitude becomes a building block that forms the structure of how you live your life.
Just as a builder carefully chooses and places each brick to construct a building, believers are called to intentionally shape their lives by the Spirit's guidance, choosing actions and attitudes that reflect God's will.
Contrast with Walking in the Flesh:

Your understanding that "walk" (στοιχῶμεν) in Galatians 5:16 involves building your lifestyle with each decision and action aligning with the Spirit's guidance is accurate. It emphasizes the intentional and transformative nature of living in communion with God through the Holy Spirit, shaping a life that reflects His character and purposes.


The contrast in Galatians 5:16-17 highlights that walking in the Spirit leads to life and freedom, whereas walking in the flesh (living according to sinful desires) leads to bondage and destruction.
Practical Application:

Practically, "walking by the Spirit" involves cultivating a relationship with God through prayer, study of Scripture, and obedience to His prompting. It means allowing the Holy Spirit to influence every aspect of your life, guiding your decisions, words, and actions.

 

[Johann]

Correct you are here re building our style of life with bricks, are you saying we are not to crucify the flesh and passions? Or am I reading you wrong here brother. Then there is sanctification, seldom mentioned on this Forum and what that entails.

Metaphorical Usage:

To "walk by the Spirit" means to live in accordance with the Spirit's leading and empowerment. It involves aligning one's thoughts, actions, and attitudes with the principles and guidance of the Spirit.
Building Your Lifestyle:

Your analogy of "building your lifestyle with bricks" captures the essence well. Each decision, habit, and attitude becomes a building block that forms the structure of how you live your life.
Just as a builder carefully chooses and places each brick to construct a building, believers are called to intentionally shape their lives by the Spirit's guidance, choosing actions and attitudes that reflect God's will.
Contrast with Walking in the Flesh:

The contrast in Galatians 5:16-17 highlights that walking in the Spirit leads to life and freedom, whereas walking in the flesh (living according to sinful desires) leads to bondage and destruction.
Practical Application:

Practically, "walking by the Spirit" involves cultivating a relationship with God through prayer, study of Scripture, and obedience to His prompting. It means allowing the Holy Spirit to influence every aspect of your life, guiding your decisions, words, and actions.

Think I'm getting tired.

 

[Johann]

I was just looking at that passage, "in the Spirit also we may walk", walk is translated from stoichomen, that's interesting. Wouldn't that mean something like building your lifestyle with those bricks? Do I have the right understanding?

Maybe tomorrow you can help me here-we are to crucify the flesh and passions and yet we are crucified in Christ Jesus

In Christ and Rebirth:

Being "in Christ" is indeed inseparable from our rebirth as Christians. This union with Christ is fundamental to our identity and new life:
2 Corinthians 5:17 (NIV): "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!"
Galatians 3:27 (NIV): "for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."
Freedom from Sin and Spiritual Growth:

While we receive freedom from the power of sin through Christ's work, our journey involves ongoing spiritual growth and maturity:
Romans 6:6-7 (NIV): "For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin."
Philippians 3:12-14 (NIV): "Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me."
Process of Sanctification:

Sanctification, the process of becoming more Christlike, is ongoing and involves spiritual exercise and growth:
Hebrews 12:11 (NIV): "No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."
Romans 8:29 (NIV): "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters."
Humility and Dependence on God's Judgment:

Paul's humility in recognizing his ongoing need for God's judgment and transformation highlights our dependence on Christ:
1 Corinthians 4:4-5 (NIV): "My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart."
Walking in the Spirit:

Walking in the Spirit involves daily living under the guidance and empowerment of the Holy Spirit, reflecting our spiritual maturity:
Galatians 5:16-18 (NIV): "So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."
Process and Transformation:

The Christian life is characterized by continual transformation and conformity to Christ:
2 Corinthians 3:18 (NIV): "And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."

Correct errors where you see them brother-and sometimes I find Scripture paradoxical and tension filled-for me.

heck-now I'm tired but edified!
J.

 

[marks]

Maybe tomorrow you can help me here-we are to crucify the flesh and passions and yet we are crucified in Christ Jesus

In Christ and Rebirth:

Being "in Christ" is indeed inseparable from our rebirth as Christians. This union with Christ is fundamental to our identity and new life:
2 Corinthians 5:17 (NIV): "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!"
Galatians 3:27 (NIV): "for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."
Freedom from Sin and Spiritual Growth:

While we receive freedom from the power of sin through Christ's work, our journey involves ongoing spiritual growth and maturity:
Romans 6:6-7 (NIV): "For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin."
Philippians 3:12-14 (NIV): "Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me."
Process of Sanctification:

Sanctification, the process of becoming more Christlike, is ongoing and involves spiritual exercise and growth:
Hebrews 12:11 (NIV): "No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."
Romans 8:29 (NIV): "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters."
Humility and Dependence on God's Judgment:

Paul's humility in recognizing his ongoing need for God's judgment and transformation highlights our dependence on Christ:
1 Corinthians 4:4-5 (NIV): "My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart."
Walking in the Spirit:

Walking in the Spirit involves daily living under the guidance and empowerment of the Holy Spirit, reflecting our spiritual maturity:
Galatians 5:16-18 (NIV): "So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."
Process and Transformation:

The Christian life is characterized by continual transformation and conformity to Christ:
2 Corinthians 3:18 (NIV): "And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."

Correct errors where you see them brother-and sometimes I find Scripture paradoxical and tension filled-for me.

heck-now I'm tired but edified!
J.

I'm about out of time today, I'll read this again tomorrow, meanwhile, peaceful sleep!

Much love!

 

[Johann]

I'm about out of time today, I'll read this again tomorrow, meanwhile, peaceful sleep!

Much love!

You too marks-I can hardly think straight, think I am going to gym and off to bed.
Greetings to your family.
Johann.

 

[marks]

Maybe tomorrow you can help me here-we are to crucify the flesh and passions and yet we are crucified in Christ Jesus

Colossians 3:5 KJV
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

To me this is similar to "work out katergadzomai your salvation because it's God working ergon in you", in this case, crucify the parts of you where sin lives, as another place says,

Romans 6:6 KJV
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

We've been crucified with Christ, and we are to bring that crucifixion to bear on the part of us where sin lives, our flesh, by taking control of it, nullifying it, by walking in the Spirit. We walk in the Spirit according to our faith. Many feel disqualified, I can feel disqualified, just the same, it's not about us, it's about Jesus. He did for us all that is required, that we can freely walk in the Spirit.

And my time slips away . . . but I love speaking with you of these things!

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

Doesn't matter-what do YOU believe?

Origen (185-254 AD)
Origen, an early Christian scholar and theologian from Alexandria, interpreted Romans 7 as referring to Paul's experience as a believer.

Origen writes in his Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans:
"And who is not aware that the apostle in this passage, saying, 'I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing,' is not speaking as if he were in a state of ignorance, but with reference to those things which he had just said before, 'that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin'?"
Chrysostom (349-407 AD)
John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople, interpreted Romans 7 as Paul's description of the ongoing struggle of a believer with sin.

Chrysostom writes in his Homilies on Romans:
"For when he says, 'To will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not,' he speaks not of a state of sin, but of a contest and a toil."
Chrysostom sees Paul's words as illustrating the Christian's struggle against the sinful inclinations of the flesh despite their desire to do good.
Cyril of Alexandria (376-444 AD)
Cyril of Alexandria, a prominent theologian and Patriarch of Alexandria, also understood Romans 7 as describing the struggle of a regenerate believer.

Cyril writes in his Commentary on Romans:
"For not as one that is unrighteous does he acknowledge himself to be a bondservant of sin; but as having been made anew in the Spirit, and longing to do better, and warring with the evil that is in the flesh, does he bewail himself, saying, 'O wretched man that I am!'"
Cyril interprets Paul's lamentation in Romans 7 as expressing the tension between the new life in Christ and the remnants of sin in the flesh.
Jerome (347-420 AD)
Jerome, a Latin priest and theologian known for his translation of the Bible into Latin (Vulgate), interpreted Romans 7 similarly.

Jerome writes in his Commentary on Galatians:
"For the apostle was now no longer speaking of the sinner before he had received the faith, but of the just man, who, after he has received grace and been justified, yet feels the stirrings of sin in his flesh."
Jerome understands Paul's description in Romans 7 as portraying the struggles of a justified believer wrestling with sinful desires.
Conclusion
These additional Church Fathers and theologians provide further historical perspectives on the interpretation of Romans 7 as describing Paul's struggles as a regenerate believer. Their writings reflect the widespread understanding within early Christianity and beyond that Paul was describing the ongoing battle with sin experienced by Christians, rather than his pre-conversion state.

Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD)
Augustine is one of the most influential Church Fathers and theologians in Christian history. He interpreted Romans 7 as describing Paul's struggles as a regenerate Christian.

Augustine writes in his work "On the Spirit and the Letter" (De Spiritu et littera):
"Who is the man who has not read or heard the Epistle to the Romans? And who is the man that has not heard, or that does not remember that passage wherein the apostle says: 'For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin'? But in this expression, 'I am carnal, sold under sin,' the apostle does not wish to be understood as if he were speaking of his present state, but of his past life, before he was freed from the flesh."
Augustine interprets Paul's struggle with sin in Romans 7 as describing his pre-conversion state, highlighting the transformation brought about by grace.
Martin Luther (1483-1546)
Martin Luther, the key figure in the Protestant Reformation, also interpreted Romans 7 as depicting Paul's struggles as a regenerate believer.

Luther writes in his commentary on Romans:
"Therefore, you should not understand Paul here as speaking of a wicked and unbelieving man, but of a man truly believing in Christ, who, however, cannot avoid sins and feels them bitterly, but overcomes them through faith in Christ."
Luther emphasizes that even believers struggle with sin but are justified through faith in Christ.
John Calvin (1509-1564)
John Calvin, another influential Reformer, interpreted Romans 7 similarly, viewing Paul's words as describing the struggles of a regenerate Christian.

Calvin writes in his Institutes of the Christian Religion:
"The person whom he introduces as complaining of the bondage of sin is not one under the law, but one who, instructed in the doctrine of Christ, recognizes his carnality, and, groaning under it, is vexed with the strife between the flesh and the Spirit."
Calvin sees Romans 7 as illustrating the ongoing conflict believers experience between their sinful nature and the indwelling Spirit.

What say you?
J.

Thanks for waiting for me and I am pleased that we agree that Paul is writing about the 'regenerate' man, but as I said, the citations from the early writers, (not Jerome or Augustine) have not made it clear whether the state described by Paul, is the normal state of the believer rather than a transient state from which he was delivered when he praised God.

If one would like to agree with Augustine, who brought in this, up till then, unheard of interpretation, if we accept that the early writers have been misquoted or partially quoted, then we have to find answers to the stark difference to Paul's testimony in other parts of the NT, including Romans 6 & 8 such as:

Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe. 1Thess 2:10, obviously dealing with the same error.

And why would a man who could not control himself, and be sold under sin advise others to do what he does?

Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 1 Cor 11:1.

There are just too many inconsistencies if one uses that interpretation not least of all most of 1 John.

1 John 3:7 Little children,d let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.e 8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil.

Hae-Kyung Chang, “The Christian Life in Dialectical Tension? Romans 7:7-25 Reconsidered,” NovT 49 (2007): 258. Chang also takes Dunn to task on theological and exegetical grounds. He is especially critical of the “dialectical structure” Dunn detects in Romans 7-8, i.e. that both chapters describe the present state of the believer and that in the cosmic struggle the apostle is at odds with himself, being both “in Adam” and “in Christ” at the same time. “The problem of applying such a dialectic scheme to Rom. 6-8 is obvious, for it disturbs the magnificent train of thought in Rom. 6-8 by muddling Paul’s lucid statements about the believer’s status past and present . . . Paul elucidates the believer’s freedom from the tyranny of sin (6:1-23), from that of the law (7:1-25), and the liberating work of the Spirit (8:1-17)” (265). Moreover, “the antithesis between what they [Christians] were and what they are should not be underplayed” (268).

I was in one Reformed church where the pastor was proud to say that he was not perfect but a sinner and said he sinned even as he woke up in a morning, even the very day we were in.

Then there is the problem with using the term 'regenerate'. Early writers did not use it the same way that Evangelicals do and it does not fit in with the early writers understanding of sanctification which is sometimes known as the Via Triplex which I have already mentioned.

This understanding of sanctification, lines up with the story of the disciples, from their call from Jesus to follow Him to the receiving of the Holy Spirit in His fullness (please do not lump me in with charismatics). It also lines up with how the children of God were led out of Egypt but that was not the end of the story when they crossed the Red Sea. They had to spend time in the wilderness before they could cross the Jordan to enter the Promised Land which of course most failed at. The river symbolizes the two stages of the believer: carnal and spiritual. We are given these examples for our education in spiritual matters.

Early writers taught that Theosis or union with God comes further down the line of discipline and suffering for the disciple. This state of Theosis is one where sin cannot abide and this is the will of God, even our sanctification where Jesus takes away sin, not leaves man in it.

Just a word about using Greek. There is so much dispute amongst scholars that I do not consider it a useful source. The aorist tense being the most disputed of all which you must know. Our most reliable source of understanding how the early church interpreted scripture is to read their writings and not the writings of how later men interpreted them.

I am afraid that Evangelicalism and especially Reformed teaching does not line up with what he early church believed, even more so how they behaved.

A few videos for you:

 

[Hepzibah]

WARNING FROM POLYCARP.

"Christ will not die again on behalf of those who now commit sin because death shall have no more dominion over Him...Therefore we should not be puffed up....but we should beware lest somehow after we have come to the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins but rather be shut out from His kingdom (Heb 6:4-6). (Irenaeus Against Heresies. bk 4, ch 27, sec 2,)

Not the sinning Christian of Augustine.

 

[Episkopos]

WARNING FROM POLYCARP.

"Christ will not die again on behalf of those who now commit sin because death shall have no more dominion over Him...Therefore we should not be puffed up....but we should beware lest somehow after we have come to the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins but rather be shut out from His kingdom (Heb 6:4-6). (Irenaeus Against Heresies. bk 4, ch 27, sec 2,)

Not the sinning Christian of Augustine.

Most won't receive the truth, having already set their minds on the easy decoy gospel. Why should we expect a future entrance into the kingdom of God when we are not permitted entry into it now? Should we not endeavour to enter NOW to make our salvation sure?

 

[Johann]

Thanks for waiting for me and I am pleased that we agree that Paul is writing about the 'regenerate' man, but as I said, the citations from the early writers, (not Jerome or Augustine) have not made it clear whether the state described by Paul, is the normal state of the believer rather than a transient state from which he was delivered when he praised God.

If one would like to agree with Augustine, who brought in this, up till then, unheard of interpretation, if we accept that the early writers have been misquoted or partially quoted, then we have to find answers to the stark difference to Paul's testimony in other parts of the NT, including Romans 6 & 8 such as:

Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe. 1Thess 2:10, obviously dealing with the same error.

And why would a man who could not control himself, and be sold under sin advise others to do what he does?

Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 1 Cor 11:1.

There are just too many inconsistencies if one uses that interpretation not least of all most of 1 John.

1 John 3:7 Little children,d let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.e 8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil.

Hae-Kyung Chang, “The Christian Life in Dialectical Tension? Romans 7:7-25 Reconsidered,” NovT 49 (2007): 258. Chang also takes Dunn to task on theological and exegetical grounds. He is especially critical of the “dialectical structure” Dunn detects in Romans 7-8, i.e. that both chapters describe the present state of the believer and that in the cosmic struggle the apostle is at odds with himself, being both “in Adam” and “in Christ” at the same time. “The problem of applying such a dialectic scheme to Rom. 6-8 is obvious, for it disturbs the magnificent train of thought in Rom. 6-8 by muddling Paul’s lucid statements about the believer’s status past and present . . . Paul elucidates the believer’s freedom from the tyranny of sin (6:1-23), from that of the law (7:1-25), and the liberating work of the Spirit (8:1-17)” (265). Moreover, “the antithesis between what they [Christians] were and what they are should not be underplayed” (268).

I was in one Reformed church where the pastor was proud to say that he was not perfect but a sinner and said he sinned even as he woke up in a morning, even the very day we were in.

Then there is the problem with using the term 'regenerate'. Early writers did not use it the same way that Evangelicals do and it does not fit in with the early writers understanding of sanctification which is sometimes known as the Via Triplex which I have already mentioned.

This understanding of sanctification, lines up with the story of the disciples, from their call from Jesus to follow Him to the receiving of the Holy Spirit in His fullness (please do not lump me in with charismatics). It also lines up with how the children of God were led out of Egypt but that was not the end of the story when they crossed the Red Sea. They had to spend time in the wilderness before they could cross the Jordan to enter the Promised Land which of course most failed at. The river symbolizes the two stages of the believer: carnal and spiritual. We are given these examples for our education in spiritual matters.

Early writers taught that Theosis or union with God comes further down the line of discipline and suffering for the disciple. This state of Theosis is one where sin cannot abide and this is the will of God, even our sanctification where Jesus takes away sin, not leaves man in it.

Just a word about using Greek. There is so much dispute amongst scholars that I do not consider it a useful source. The aorist tense being the most disputed of all which you must know. Our most reliable source of understanding how the early church interpreted scripture is to read their writings and not the writings of how later men interpreted them.

I am afraid that Evangelicalism and especially Reformed teaching does not line up with what he early church believed, even more so how they behaved.

A few videos for you:

Right, Just finished listening to the two videos @Hepzibah-what do you want me to say?