Brakelite
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Well He did. Just in much fewer words, and with a great deal more authority and skill and logic. See above.
The deconstructing of the law in the New Testament
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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It means that someone, at a time in the past, inserted a comma after "woman."
Is 42:6–96 “I am Yahweh; I have called you in righteousness; I will take you by the hand and keep you; I will give you as a covenant for the people, a light for the nations, to open the eyes that are blind, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, from the prison those who sit in darkness. I am Yahweh; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols. Behold, the former things have come to pass, and new things I now declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them.”
Is 49:8–9 Thus says Yahweh; “In a time of favor I have answered you; in a day of salvation I have helped you; I will keep you and give you as a covenant to the people, to establish the land, to apportion the desolate heritages,
saying to the prisoners, ‘Come out,’ to those who are in darkness, ‘Appear.’
Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman born under the law. (Translators insert a comma that makes it appear that Yeshua was born under the law. When that comma is removed, we can see that Yeshua's mother was, but not Yeshua Himself. He IS the personification of the New Covenant spoken of in Isaiah. The New Covenant was given to the Jews in Yeshua. He was the sacrifice that established it.
Yeshua IS the New Covenant. It is reasonable to understand that He could not be under the old covenant and be the new covenant at the same time.
Jn 3:34–35 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.
"born under the Law" This shows that Jesus was born within the Jewish tradition under Jewish Law (cf. Rom. 1:3). There is no ARTICLE with the term "law," but the context shows it must refer to the Law of Moses, which was the stoicheia to which Jesus was subject. Jesus was also subject to Roman law. This phrase could also relate to "the curse of the Law" on mankind, which He voluntarily shared (cf. Gal. 3:10-13).
4:5 "so that He might redeem those who were under the Law" "Redeem" (AORIST ACTIVE SUBJUNCTIVE) is used in Gal. 3:13 (AORIST ACTIVE INDICATIVE) to speak of God's buying back either
all humanity from the slavery of sin
the Jews from the Mosaic Law and the Gentiles from the stoicheia, through the life, death and resurrection of Christ
This shows mankind's helplessness (cf. Rom. 1:18-3:31; Eph. 2:1-3) and God's gracious provision (cf. Mark 10:45; Eph. 2:4-6). It is difficult in this context to know if Paul was speaking of Mosaic Law, Gal. 3:19, or law in the general sense of human merit (cf. Gal. 3:21).
The earthly being of Christ began under the law. He was not only of human birth, but of Jewish birth; subjected to all the ordinances of the law, as circumcision for instance, like any other Jewish boy.
Born under the law (genomenon hupo nomon). He not only became a man, but a Jew. The purpose (hina) of God thus was plainly to redeem (exagorasēi, as in Gal_3:13) those under the law, and so under the curse. The further purpose (hina) was that we (Jew and Gentile) might receive (apolabōmen, second aorist active subjunctive of apolambanō), not get back (Luk_15:27), but get from (apo) God the adoption (tēn huiothesian). Late word common in the inscriptions (Deissmann, Bible Studies, p. 239) and occurs in the papyri also and in Diogenes Laertes, though not in lxx. Paul adopts this current term to express his idea (he alone in the N.T.) as to how God takes into his spiritual family both Jews and Gentiles who believe. See also Rom_8:15, Rom_8:23; Rom_9:4; Eph_1:5. The Vulgate uses adoptio filiorum. It is a metaphor like the others above, but a very expressive one.
Guess you are wrong here @Spyder
J.
My point is that those observing the actions of Jesus understood it as Sabbath violation.
What was Jesus doing to the law?
John 5:18 NIV
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 9:16 NIV
Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”
But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.
[
Taken
Well-Known Member
The deconstructing of the law in the New Testament
Not particularly fond of the use of the term “deconstructing”…in regard to the Law.
God Law…Mens Law…rather is IMO a fulfillment…accomplished by ones obedience or unfulfilled by ones disobedience…thus the purpose for Penal (aka Scriptural Curse) Laws that become applicable and another causing the enforcement.
Laws…(Godly /or mans) for the man to fulfill is called Positive Laws.
Laws…(Curse / Penal) for the man to be forced to comply /contend with is called Negative Laws.
Laws…(Godly or mans) all have a specificity of WHO exactly the Law applies TO…and when a Law IS a (Command / Statute (ie written)…it comes without EXCUSE for men to KNOW and choose to obey or not…and be subject to the positive or negative consequences.
AND BTW WAY…the express number one PURPOSE “institutional, (ie schools) were started to EDUCATE children to READ and WRITE….And MATH, so they would know HOW TO justly buy (without being cheated) and sell (with cheating another)….AND HISTORY, to know and learn OTHERS choices / experiences and their positive or negative results…for ones own WISDOM to not DO what others have DONE ending in negative results…
BUT TODAY…the Schools FAIL in focusing on Reading, Writing, Math, History…and instead have become corrupt pseudo medical advisors, as yet another ploy in their agenda to downsize the population of humans on the Planet.
Every AGENDA (God’s or man’s) HAS an END Result in the Big Picture…and is Pretty for some and Pretty Ugly for others.
Glory to God,
Taken
Not particularly fond of the use of the term “deconstructing”…in regard to the Law.
God Law…Mens Law…rather is IMO a fulfillment…accomplished by ones obedience or unfulfilled by ones disobedience…thus the purpose for Penal (aka Scriptural Curse) Laws that become applicable and another causing the enforcement.
Laws…(Godly /or mans) for the man to fulfill is called Positive Laws.
Laws…(Curse / Penal) for the man to be forced to comply /contend with is called Negative Laws.
Laws…(Godly or mans) all have a specificity of WHO exactly the Law applies TO…and when a Law IS a (Command / Statute (ie written)…it comes without EXCUSE for men to KNOW and choose to obey or not…and be subject to the positive or negative consequences.
AND BTW WAY…the express number one PURPOSE “institutional, (ie schools) were started to EDUCATE children to READ and WRITE….And MATH, so they would know HOW TO justly buy (without being cheated) and sell (with cheating another)….AND HISTORY, to know and learn OTHERS choices / experiences and their positive or negative results…for ones own WISDOM to not DO what others have DONE ending in negative results…
BUT TODAY…the Schools FAIL in focusing on Reading, Writing, Math, History…and instead have become corrupt pseudo medical advisors, as yet another ploy in their agenda to downsize the population of humans on the Planet.
Every AGENDA (God’s or man’s) HAS an END Result in the Big Picture…and is Pretty for some and Pretty Ugly for others.
Glory to God,
Taken
Taken
Well-Known Member
2Ti_2:15 "Be diligent to present yourself" This is an aorist active imperative with an aorist active infinitive. This is a call for a decisive act of the will (cf. Rom_6:13; Eph_4:3).
"approved"This is a metallurgical term which became an idiom for "a test with a view toward approval," a metaphor for confirming something as genuine (cf. 1Co_11:19; 2Co_10:18). See Special Topic: Greek Terms for "Testing" and Their Connotations at 1Ti_6:9.
"to God" God is the one who must approve our teaching, preaching, and our lifestyle.
"as a workman who does not need to be ashamed" Spiritless Bible teaching and un-Christlike daily living will cause believers shame when they stand before their Lord (cf. 2Co_5:10). Paul was concerned about being ashamed before the Lord, but not before humans (cf. 2Ti_1:8; 2Ti_1:12; 2Ti_1:16).
"accurately handling" This is a present active participle meaning "to cut straight." It is found only here in the NT. This was often used of constructing a road, plowing a furrow, or a stone mason building a structure (cf. Pro_3:6; Pro_11:5 in the Septuagint).
This term is used metaphorically to cut a straight line. The Word of God is a straight (righteous) path to truth. The word "straight" is an OT construction term taken from the word for a "river reed" which was used to confirm the horizontal straightness of walls, streets, etc. YHWH used this term to describe His own character. It is translated "just" or "right" (and all the related forms, see Special Topic at Tit_2:12). God is the ruler or standard by which all else is evaluated. Apostolic truth reflects God's character; Apostolic living reflects God's character. The false teachers fail at both!
"the word of truth" In Eph_1:13; Col_1:5 and Jas_1:18 this refers to the gospel. Here it refers to Apostolic truth preached by Paul and passed on by Timothy and accepted and lived out by mature believers. For a good book on the development of Apostolic preaching, teaching and letters in the New Testament see Birth of a New Testament by William L. Bevins (Union Baptist University, Carson City, TN). See Special Topic: Truth in Paul's Writings at 1Ti_2:4.
2Ti_2:16 "But avoid worldly and empty chatter" This is a present middle imperative. This is a major theme in the Pastoral Letters (cf. 1Ti_6:20; Tit_3:9).
"it will lead" Believers are to cut a straight path to righteousness and truth (cf. 2Ti_2:15) but the false teachers and their followers are making a path to ungodliness and self-deception [cf. 2Ti_3:9;]
NASB, NRSV "their talk will spread like gangrene"
NKJV "their message will spread like cancer"
TEV "such teaching is like an open sore that eats away flesh"
NJB "talk of this kind spreads corruption like gangrene"
What a vivid idiom of the effects of false teaching! Heresy spreads like a fast growing cancer, even among believers, and the consequences are as horrible as the metaphor (cf. 1Ti_6:20-21).
I am avoiding you @St. SteVen.
J.
St. SteVen said:
My point is that those observing the actions of Jesus understood it as Sabbath violation.
What was Jesus doing to the law?
Most would misquote Matthew 5:17 by saying: "Jesus didn't come to abolish the law. He came to fulfill the law." (keep it)
Notice what is missing and different in the actual verse. There is no period after "the Law". Note the capital L.
Jesus is referring to the BOOKS of the Law (the Pentateuch) and the BOOKS of the Prophets.
A reference to what was written (prophesied) about him, not a reference to the laws themselves.
Matthew 5:17 NIV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
--- COMPARE --- Jesus explains Matthew 5:17 (note "the Prophets" in verse 17 above)
Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in
the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
www.christianityboard.com
[
My point is that those observing the actions of Jesus understood it as Sabbath violation.
What was Jesus doing to the law?
I think there is a major disconnect in the church on this idea of Jesus "fulfilling the law". (by keeping it)
Most would misquote Matthew 5:17 by saying: "Jesus didn't come to abolish the law. He came to fulfill the law." (keep it)
Notice what is missing and different in the actual verse. There is no period after "the Law". Note the capital L.
Jesus is referring to the BOOKS of the Law (the Pentateuch) and the BOOKS of the Prophets.
A reference to what was written (prophesied) about him, not a reference to the laws themselves.
Matthew 5:17 NIV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
--- COMPARE --- Jesus explains Matthew 5:17 (note "the Prophets" in verse 17 above)
Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in
the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things
- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L) - What's the difference between the law and God's law? - What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law? The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things. Agree, or disagree? Points...
www.christianityboard.com
[
Last edited:
Why do you think? Jesus was born under the law.
Mat 5:17 μη νομισητε οτι ηλθον καταλυσαι τον νομον η τους προφητας ουκ ηλθον καταλυσαι αλλα πληρωσαι
Jesus yield perfect obedience to the law. Notice the Definite Article-ton nomon.
the law. The first of fifteen references to the Law by Christ (Mat_5:17, Mat_5:18; Mat_7:12; Mat_11:13; Mat_12:5; Mat_22:40; Mat_23:23. Luk_10:26; Luk_16:6, Luk_16:17; Luk_24:44. Joh_7:19, Joh_7:19, Joh_7:23; Joh_8:17; Joh_10:34; Joh_15:25), five of these coupled with "Moses".
JESUS CAME TO FULFILL THE LAW, SUPPLANT ITS WORSHIP WITH THE NEW CHURCH ORDER
V. 17-30
1) "Think not that I am come," (me nomisete hoti ethon) "Think not (within yourselves) that I came," of my own will and accord, as a civil revolutionary or insurrectionist, against either established government or religious orders.
2) "To destroy the law, or the prophets:" (katalusai ton nomon he tous prophetas) "To destroy or abrogate the law or the prophets," under which Israel had been trustee or custodian of a program of sacrifices and Divine worship and service for near 1,500 years. For these had 'pointed to Jesus Christ as the one and only hope and way of salvation from sin, Luk_16:29-31; Act_10:43; Gal_3:22-25.
3) "I am not come to destroy," (ouk elthon katalusai came not to destroy," abrogate, annul or demean the law or the authority and principles of the law, Luk_16:16; Luk_19:10. He came to save the bad, not to destroy the good.
4) "But to fulfill." (alla plerosai) "But instead, to fulfill," that of which the law and the prophets spoke and witnessed by word, type, shadow, and object lessons, as He Himself explained, Luk_24:44-45. Jesus came to fulfill or live up to the demands of the Holy Law, then die for all who had fallen short of its standards and demands, Gal_3:13; 1Pe_2:24; 2Pe_3:18.
Jesus "made under the law", Gal_4:4, lived in perfect obedience to meet the standards of the law, Joh_8:46, fulfilled the types and shadows of the law, Gal_3:13-14; 1Pe_2:21-23, thus establishing the holiness of the law, Gal_6:2.
J.
Taken
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen said:
My point is that those observing the actions of Jesus understood it as Sabbath violation.
What was Jesus doing to the law?
I think there is a major disconnect in the church on this idea of Jesus "fulfilling the law". (by keeping it)
Most would misquote Matthew 5:17 by saying: "Jesus didn't come to abolish the law. He came to fulfill the law." (keep it)
Notice what is missing and different in the actual verse. There is no period after "the Law". Note the capital L.
Jesus is referring to the BOOKS of the Law (the Pentateuch) and the BOOKS of the Prophets.
A reference to what was written (prophesied) about him, not a reference to the laws themselves.
Matthew 5:17 NIV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
--- COMPARE --- Jesus explains Matthew 5:17 (note "the Prophets" in verse 17 above)
Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in
the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things
- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L) - What's the difference between the law and God's law? - What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law? The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things. Agree, or disagree? Points...
Churches (broadly) have become about hearing someone yap yapping how great they are and how wonderful they should feel about “themselves”! Not the Lord message!
As far as the term “fulfill”. That can be a little tricky…meaning…in one respect it means having completed a task, work, service…
Done…Accomplished….requires no more effort to continue doing that particular thing.
In another respect, there is “maintenance” so to speak….as you were saying “keeping”.
I look at Spiritual things through a spiritual lens and Logical things through reasoning.
Some works, service, etc. are a done deal, accomplished and do not require repeating that SAME works, service….being Baptized with the Holy Spirit…ONCE, done deal. OSAS for example….
I don’t have to maintain that.
Laws Jesus fulfilled provided me (other gentiles, jews) the no longer necessity to slaughter an animal for its dead body and Blood to be a sacrifice in my stead to receive Gods favor….Jesus did that for me…..until the day my own body and blood is claimed by the Lord God…as I (freely) WILLED it unto Him. And when the Lord God….gathers, receives, redeems… my body and blood….He is receiving His inheritance.
Now “works”…I can continue doing…same things over and over…or something different or toward a different person….IF it Glorifies God…it is a debt unto God, He shall award a reward unto me….If whatever I do, does not Glorify God…it gets burned…
Washing dishes, clothes, cooking, cleaning, penning animals then caring for them, mowing, blah, blah…continual…maintenance.
Now the Scripture says…THIS is a day the Lord hath made….and Pray without ceasing…
On the flip side…speaking of the Sabbath / Sunday Church…hummm….168 hours in a week…and MAYBE 1 hour in a sanctuary listening to preaching….
I am more of the opinion pray without ceasing and every day is a day the Lord hath made is more conducive to a better relationship with the Lord than 1 hour out of 168 hours.
Glory to God,
Taken
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Taken
Well-Known Member
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Gentiles were never required to fulfill the laws of the Temple.
Nothing of the Temple laws ended for gentiles. They never were for gentiles.
[
Well, brothers, if Yeshua was "born under the law," He was a sinner. Please consider that before you declare that the comma mentioned actually belongs there. Breaking the Sabbath, not obedient to His parents and staying in Jerusalem when they headed back to Nazareth, teaching others to see the Sabbath differently, etc. A strict adherence to "the law" would be required of someone born under the law but not someone who was "given as a New Covenant" as we read in Isaiah.
Perhaps we need to define what it means to be "under the law"?
Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
[ cc: @Johann
Nice try-not going to work.
Galatians 3:23-25 (NIV) with Greek Analysis:
Verse 23:
"Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed."
Greek Phrase: ἐφρουρούμεθα ὑπὸ νόμον (ephrouroumetha hypo nomon):
ἐφρουρούμεθα: From phroureó, meaning "to guard" or "to keep under guard."
ὑπὸ νόμον: "under the law," where hypo means "under," showing subjection to the law's authority.
This shows a strong picture of being restricted or guarded by the law, not in the sense of freedom but in terms of restraint or confinement.
The phrase "held in custody" (ἐφρουρούμεθα) implies that, before Christ came, the law functioned like a prison or a controlling force. It kept people in check, revealing their need for a Savior but not providing the freedom of salvation itself.
Verse 24:
"So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith."
Greek Phrase: ὁ νόμος παιδαγωγὸς ἡμῶν γέγονεν εἰς Χριστόν (ho nomos paidagōgos hēmōn gegonen eis Christon):
παιδαγωγὸς (paidagōgos): This term refers to a "guardian" or "tutor," often a servant responsible for overseeing and disciplining children. In Greco-Roman culture, a paidagōgos was not a teacher in the academic sense, but more of a strict guide or disciplinarian.
This metaphor shows that the law functioned as a temporary guide until the Messiah arrived, bringing the promise of justification by faith. The law was not the final answer but a necessary preparation for the revelation of Christ.
The word paidagōgos emphasizes that the law was not a permanent solution but rather a preparatory measure. It guided and disciplined God’s people, yet it could not justify or save them.
Verse 25:
"Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."
Greek Phrase: οὐκ ἔτι ὑπὸ παιδαγωγόν (ouk eti hypo paidagōgon):
οὐκ ἔτι: "No longer" – signifying the end of the law’s guardianship.
ὑπὸ παιδαγωγόν: "Under a guardian" – reiterating the transition from the law’s role as a disciplinarian to Christ’s coming.
Once the Messiah came, the role of the law as a paidagōgos ended. Faith in Christ replaced the need for the law to act as a restrictive guardian, since Christ fulfilled the law and brought justification through faith.
Cross-References:
Galatians 4:4-5:
"But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."
Here, Paul explicitly states that Jesus was born under the law (Greek: ὑπὸ νόμον, hypo nomon), confirming that He subjected Himself to the same Mosaic Law. This is critical because, as the Messiah, Jesus fulfilled the law’s requirements perfectly in a way no one else could (Matthew 5:17).
Romans 10:4:
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Christ's coming marks the telos (Greek: τέλος), the goal or fulfillment of the law. This doesn't mean the law was abolished but fulfilled its purpose in Christ, allowing believers to be justified by faith rather than by the works of the law.
Matthew 5:17:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Jesus Himself declared that His mission was to fulfill the law (Greek: πληρῶσαι, plērōsai), meaning He lived in perfect obedience to it, thereby fulfilling its demands.
Philippians 2:7-8:
"But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross."
Christ's obedience to the law (and to God’s will) even unto death reflects His submission to the Mosaic covenant, under which He was born and lived.
Synthesis and Conclusion:
In Galatians 3:23-25, Paul outlines the purpose of the law as a temporary guardian (paidagōgos), a disciplinarian that held God’s people in check until the coming of Christ, the ultimate fulfillment of the law. The law's role was preparatory, not salvific—it pointed towards the coming Messiah, who would justify humanity by faith, not by adherence to the law. The Greek terms, particularly hypo nomon (under the law) and paidagōgos (guardian), illustrate how the law both restrained and guided God's people until Jesus fulfilled it.
When Paul states in Galatians 4:4-5 that Jesus was “born under the law,” he highlights that Jesus subjected Himself to the law's authority in order to redeem those also under the law. Jesus' perfect adherence to the law was necessary for Him to fulfill the requirements of the Mosaic covenant and thus become the means by which all people can be justified by faith.
The notion that "faith has come" and believers are no longer "under a guardian" reflects that, in Christ, the law has fulfilled its purpose. Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection ended the law's role as a disciplinarian over God’s people, replacing it with justification through faith, confirming that He was indeed born under the law to fulfill it perfectly.
J.
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