Can a person be a Christ-follower without falling in lock-step with the institutional church?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
- Start date
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
How are we Born Again then, if we aren’t birthed by the Living Spirit?
Doctrine certainly doesn’t give us rebirth, I 100% agree with you on that one.
You have me on that one. I see support in Scripture both ways. I'm tempted to answer that it depends on whether baptism leads to receipt of the Holy Spirit. Just looking at Acts for the moment:
That baptism leads to receiving of the Holy Spirit is suggested by Acts 2:38: “Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
But not by Acts 8:14-17: “Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. The two went down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit (for as yet the Spirit had not come upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus). Then Peter and John laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.”
That baptism is not necessary for receipt of the Holy Spirit is suggested by Acts 10:44-48: “While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard the word. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, for they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter said, ‘Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?’ So he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.”
A lot going on here. And these three all concern baptism in the name of Jesus Christ -- we haven't yet broached the subject of baptism in one name or in three!
St. SteVen said:
No one is saved by either doctrine, or baptism. IMHO
What I did say was, "No one is saved by either doctrine, or baptism."
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No one is saved by either doctrine, or baptism. IMHO
I said nothing about the Spirit. I agree, that is essential.
What I did say was, "No one is saved by either doctrine, or baptism."
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I agree on doctrine.
Although some doctrine could be really harmful to either the person or Christianity as a whole.
Also, while doctrine won't save a person, I do believe that one incorrect doctrine in particular COULD cause some to forfeit their salvation.
Baptism...as @RedFan pointed out,,,,is more difficult and I'll be responding to him in a few minutes.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Baptism would seem simple....but I've never thought of it as a simple teaching.
What IS baptism?
In Acts 2:38 it seems to be the receiving of power to witness.
They either spoke in different tongues (languages) or they heard in their own language.
Also, it states that it's for the forgiveness of sins.
John the Bap said HE baptized for the remission of sins, but one would come after him that would baptize with the spirit and fire.
Fire is associated with the Holy Spirit (as in Acts 2).
So,,,question:
Was the Holy Spirit available to believers in the OT?
Was it different?
My thinking:
The Holy Spirit, being God, was ALWAYS with us.
MAYBE there's a difference between the Holy Spirit being WITH US
and the Holy Spirit being IN US...dwelling with us...?
Exactly....
What does it mean to RECEIVE the Holy Spirit?
The ECFs believe that baptism was necessary to forgive sins.
Many waited to be on their death bed in order to be baptized.
But Paul taught that we needed to accept God and He would change our heart and that would be salvation for us.
Problem: How does the Holy Spirit dwell in a body UNLESS it has been forgiven of sin?
How are we forgiven of sin IF we need to be baptized to be forgiven??
Just food for thought.
In the Name of is easy, but another topic.
So...I like also what the CCC teaches (the CC)....it teaches that if a person is born again but not baptized it will not affect their salvation.
UNLESS they obstinatly refused baptism, but they did plan on it....then IF they die...they would receive the baptism of desire...the fact that they wanted to be baptized is sufficient.
Did we solve the question?
LOL
Lambano
Well-Known Member
I don't think this is historically accurate. Here's an interesting article:
History of Trinitarian Doctrines
Early Christianity was apparently heterogenous. You had strictly monotheistic Jewish-Christian sects like the Ebionites and later the Nazarenes. I don't know about strictly monotheistic Gentile sects. Of those who held to the divinity of Jesus, "Subordinationism" was apparently the dominant theological model:
Would a Nicene Trinitarian consider a Subordinist Trinitarian a Christian? How about a Jewish Monotheistic follower of Jesus? A strictly monotheistic Gentile follower of Jesus?
I skimmed through it.
I'm interested from where THE NEW TESTAMENT begins.
Of course there were sects that didn't believe Jesus was divine...this is the reason for the Nicene Creed....
to put to rest all the controversy.
What I stated is that the divinity of Jesus is found in the NT AND that this was believed by those that were taught by the Apostles.
If I neglected to state this...I'm doing it now.
The ECFs believed Jesus was God.
This necessitated HOW Jesus could be God. After all, the Jews were monotheistic and I don't believe they found this to be a simple concept to comprehend.
Our faith can tell us that we must accept some truths,,,,but man must come to some understanding on his own.
This is what the early theologians did. They sorted out the scriptures and the teachings and attempted to understand this Jesus who was God...and then was the Holy Spirit also God?
Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.
Polycarp 69-155
student of John
Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been blessed in greatness through the plentitude of God the Father; which hath been foreordained before the ages to be for ever unto abiding and unchangeable glory, united and elect in a true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy.
Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you.
For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.5
Ignatius 50-117
Student of John
And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said.
Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts.
Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Jesus] is witnessed to by Him [the Father] who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ.
Justin Martyr 100-165
Student of Irenaeus, student of Polycarp, student of John
source: Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus Is God
I don't know what a Subordinist Trinitarian is. I'm sure it's in the article.
A Jewish Monotheistic follower of Jesus....No.
A monotheistic follower of Jesus.....No.
These are those persons who answered that they're Christian because they follow Christ when I had posted a thread re this topic some years ago.
Being a follower is not enough to be called a Christian.
To be called a Christian one must believe that Jesus is God.
The only way to do this is to believe the Trinity.
Yes, water baptism.
Very controversial, though. Many believe you are not saved without it. Scripture below.
I see water baptism as a religious ceremony. A ceremony is an outward sign of an inward reality.
The inward reality is the important part. (renewed relationship with God)
Matthew 28:19-20 NIV
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Acts 2:38 NIV
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you,
in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Good point. It would vary from church to church.
I meant in general. And was differentiating between the Body of Christ and the man-made church.
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
You don't think the Lord has an institutional church, however faulty it may be, that He had raised up for His own purpose?
Brakelite said:
What particular institutional church?
If you join a church are you not bound to their beliefs? Or do you have some latitude?
I think some choose to have some latitude. But many relinquish their beliefs to the church.
When you ask them what they believe, they respond by saying, "Our church believes...", instead of "I believe..."
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What particular institutional church?
A question came up earlier about what a person owes to a group they join.
If you join a church are you not bound to their beliefs? Or do you have some latitude?
I think some choose to have some latitude. But many relinquish their beliefs to the church.
When you ask them what they believe, they respond by saying, "Our church believes...", instead of "I believe..."
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St. SteVen said:
Good point. It would vary from church to church.
I meant in general. And was differentiating between the Body of Christ and the man-made church.
I may belong to an institutional church, but you and I as believers are both members of the Body of Christ.
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Good point. It would vary from church to church.
I meant in general. And was differentiating between the Body of Christ and the man-made church.
That could be, but I am differentiated between the two.
I may belong to an institutional church, but you and I as believers are both members of the Body of Christ.
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
Just to be clear, I recommend water baptism for all believers.
Though I don't believe it is a salvation issue, It is a powerful experience for the individual
and a witness to family and the community. Our church does public baptisms.
Many years ago I made the observation that the entire Trinity is present at a water baptism.
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Personally I believe there may be genuine born again Christians in every denomination, house church, institution. But not every denomination has the full approval of God. Some, despite having Christians as members, are actually working at cross purposes in some ways with regard God's plans. Remember, Babylon, a global apostate Christian composite made up of numerous churches, a spiritual institution, is at war with spiritual Jerusalem, the true church of the very last days.
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