SETTLING THE FALSE THEORY OF REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY

[Davy]

The House of Judah is already cut off from the Spiritual Tree. Like everyone, it is only by accepting Jesus, that Jew and gentile can be grafted in.
The basic problem of who is Israel, is coloured by the false 'rapture' of the Church to heaven, before any turbulation. For this wrong theory to work, there must be an Israel on earth undergoing the great Trib. This belief then has the Jews mass converted when Jesus Returns.
That this whole scenario is false and impossible, is easily proved by careful study of all the Prophesies.

I disagree that the "house of Judah" is cut off. Remember what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 11 about his brethren the unbelieving Jews which God spiritually blinded away from The Gospel. It ain't over until the fat lady sings, so to speak. So the Jews today still represent the old "house of Judah", otherwise how are the two sticks of Ezekiel 37 going to be joined back together when Jesus comes if there is no more "house of Judah"?

 

[Zao is life]

I disagree that the "house of Judah" is cut off. Remember what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 11 about his brethren the unbelieving Jews which God spiritually blinded away from The Gospel. It ain't over until the fat lady sings, so to speak. So the Jews today still represent the old "house of Judah", otherwise how are the two sticks of Ezekiel 37 going to be joined back together when Jesus comes if there is no more "house of Judah"?

They are already joined together in Christ and Ezekiel 37 suggests a much fuller fulfillment in a literal regathering of both Jews and Gentiles who are in Christ - at the commencement of that thousand years the saints argue and argue about.

There ain't no joining except in Christ and since the joining is only in Christ it has already begun.

 

[Zao is life]

The House of Judah is already cut off from the Spiritual Tree. Like everyone, it is only by accepting Jesus, that Jew and gentile can be grafted in.
The basic problem of who is Israel, is coloured by the false 'rapture' of the Church to heaven, before any turbulation. For this wrong theory to work, there must be an Israel on earth undergoing the great Trib. This belief then has the Jews mass converted when Jesus Returns.
That this whole scenario is false and impossible, is easily proved by careful study of all the Prophesies.​

The house of Judah has never been cut off. Your assertion ignores everything Paul said about the remnant. The remnant of the house of Judah is the reason why the nation continued to exist (was not cut off) and it's into this nation that Gentiles who believe in Christ have been grafted.

Together the Jews and Gentiles in Christ are the citizens of Israel who are living stones making up a Temple - the New Testament Temple of God which did not REPLACE the nation of Israel - but since the citizens ARE now the Temple, in the New Covenant the (citizens of) the nation (Israel) and the Temple of God are the same thing. In the Old Covenant the nation and the Temple were not one and the same thing.
​

And THE ABOVE nation is STILL the house of Judah - the foundations of its Temple are the Jewish apostles and its cornerstone is the Jewish Messiah - and it's the nation which since 722 B.C is also called "the whole house of Israel" - because through the remnant the house of Judah / "the whole house of Israel" continued to exist.

The northern ten tribes are never called Israel, the house of Israel or the whole house of Israel IN SCRIPTURE after BC722 - but the house of Judah continued to be called Israel, the house of Israel or the whole house of Israel IN SCRIPTURE after BC722. Nor did the house of Israel or the house of Judah cease to exist AFTER CIRCA AD30. God kept for Himself a remnant.

There would have been no elect nation for Gentiles to be grafted into if the house of Judah was cut off. But the majority were cut off. The remnant remained.

 

[Keraz]

I disagree that the "house of Judah" is cut off. Remember what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 11 about his brethren the unbelieving Jews which God spiritually blinded away from The Gospel. It ain't over until the fat lady sings, so to speak. So the Jews today still represent the old "house of Judah", otherwise how are the two sticks of Ezekiel 37 going to be joined back together when Jesus comes if there is no more "house of Judah"?

Ezekiel 37:15-28 will take place after the holy Land is cleared and cleansed. by the Lords Day of fiery wrath. The remnant of the Jews, kept alive by hiding in bunkers; Isaiah 29:1-4, will join with their Christian brethren, as we all migrate there. Isaiah 66:15-21 tells it in a nutshell.

The 12,000 Jews, [actually 24,000 - incl the tribe of Benjamin] who will make up their number selected to go out as missionaries, Isaiah 66:19, will mainly come from Christian Jews still in dispersion.

Also Ezekiel 20:30-38, tells how it will be as we all gather in the 'wilderness', before entering the holy Land.

There would have been no elect nation for Gentiles to be grafted into if the house of Judah was cut off. But the majority were cut off. The remnant remained.

You write a screed, saying how the Jews have never been cut off. Then you say they were.
Paul says : Romans 11:21 God did not spare the natural branches.... And; Romans 9:27 Only a remnant of [Jewish] Israel will survive.

 

[Zao is life]

Ezekiel 37:15-28 will take place after the holy Land is cleared and cleansed. by the Lords Day of fiery wrath. The remnant of the Jews, kept alive by hiding in bunkers; Isaiah 29:1-4, will join with their Christian brethren, as we all migrate there. Isaiah 66:15-21 tells it in a nutshell.

The 12,000 Jews, [actually 24,000 - incl the tribe of Benjamin] who will make up their number selected to go out as missionaries, Isaiah 66:19, will mainly come from Christian Jews still in dispersion.

Also Ezekiel 20:30-38, tells how it will be as we all gather in the 'wilderness', before entering the holy Land.

You write a screed, saying how the Jews have never been cut off. Then you say they were.
Paul says : Romans 11:21 God did not spare the natural branches.... And; Romans 9:27 Only a remnant of [Jewish] Israel will survive.

LOL. Do you even understand what a remnant is?

Romans 11:4-5: But what was the divine response to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand people who have not bent the knee to Baal." So in the same way at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Romans 11:21 Paul is speaking about those who were cut off, not about those who were not cut off.

Romans 11:4-5 confirms Romans 9:27, and then you imply that all the Jews - all the house of Judah / house of Israel - were cut off by implying that Romans 11:21 is talking about the whole nation (including the remnant).

LOL. You are the one who writes screeds - lots of them. And a lot of them are full of contradictions, as it is this time too. Makes me wonder if you know who the "them" is that Paul is speaking about in Romans 11:17: Is it the same people he is talking about in Romans 9:27 and Romans 11:4-5, or the same people he is speaking about in Romans 11:21?

Tell if you know. (Not that I don't know - but you seem confused, as usual).

Oh forget it, you're in your own Bible. Same Bible but rewritten in your own imagination.

 

[Davy]

Ezekiel 37:15-28 will take place after the holy Land is cleared and cleansed. by the Lords Day of fiery wrath. The remnant of the Jews, kept alive by hiding in bunkers; Isaiah 29:1-4, will join with their Christian brethren, as we all migrate there. Isaiah 66:15-21 tells it in a nutshell.

The 12,000 Jews, [actually 24,000 - incl the tribe of Benjamin] who will make up their number selected to go out as missionaries, Isaiah 66:19, will mainly come from Christian Jews still in dispersion.

Also Ezekiel 20:30-38, tells how it will be as we all gather in the 'wilderness', before entering the holy Land.

You write a screed, saying how the Jews have never been cut off. Then you say they were.
Paul says : Romans 11:21 God did not spare the natural branches.... And; Romans 9:27 Only a remnant of [Jewish] Israel will survive.

That "wilderness" of Ezekiel 20:35 is the same "wilderness" of Hosea 2:14-18...

Hos 2:14-18
14 Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.
15 And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.
16 And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call Me Ishi; and shalt call Me no more Baali.
17 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
KJV

That already happened to the ten lost tribes ("house of Israel") when God gathered them out of the countries they first were scattered to (i.e., Assyria and the lands of the Medes, per 2 Kings 17). And in that "wilderness" is where God gave them that Covenant, The New Covenant Jesus Christ. That is how... the "house of Israel" began putting away their idols and Baal worship which God scattered them for.


That above Hosea 2 event of that "wilderness" is the same event spoken of in Ezekiel 20:30-44 that you instead try to serve as some secret hidden meeting place.

Ezekiel 20:32-44
32 And that which cometh into your mind shall not be at all, that ye say, "We will be as the heathen, as the families of the countries, to serve wood and stone."

That above was about the ten tribes when they had fallen into idol worship, Baalism, and God had scattered them to Assyria and the lands of the Medes for it.

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

That "wilderness" is the same one of Hosea 2:14, when God brought the ten tribes out of Assyria and the lands of the Medes to the West, into Asia Minor and Europe, and there He would plead with each one "face to face", which is still going on today in the western Christian nations and its Christian allies outside the West, like New Zealand, where you live.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

Again, that "covenant" is The New Covenant Jesus Christ. The ten tribe "house of Israel" ain't gonna' have to wait for God to bring them back to the holy lands for that to happen; it already started when The Gospel was preached to them and to the Gentiles by Christ's Apostles, and the western Christian nations of history manifested, where the majority of the ten tribe "house of Israel" wound up, and is still there to this day.

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against Me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

That is about the 'unbelievers' of the ten tribe "house of Israel" that still reject Jesus Christ as God's Promised Savior. That idea of purging out the rebels has been happening since Christ died on the cross and Christ has been preached to the western nations of Asia Minor and Europe where the majority of the ten tribes wound up in that "wilderness".

39 As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter also, if ye will not hearken unto Me: but pollute ye My holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols.

Once again, that above is for the time of the "house of Israel" scattered in that "wilderness" of new lands like Asia Minor, Europe, and the Americas, where they migrated to after leaving the lands they were captive to in Assyria and lands of the Medes. That is where they brought their Baal idols to once they left the lands of their captivity. Then God gave them The New Covenant, The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that's when they began to put those Baal idols away. That's history.

40 For in Mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord God, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, serve Me: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the firstfruits of your oblations, with all your holy things.
41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.
42 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up Mine hand to give it to your fathers.

That above has not happened yet today. It will only occur on the day of Christ's future coming at the "last trump" gathering of His faithful saints. And how does that happen in the future, as written? It is written that Jesus will bring the asleep saints with Him that had already died in Christ, and then those saints still alive on earth will be "caught up" to Him in the "air", and they all go with Him to Jerusalem on earth, to the Mount of Olives to begin His "thousand years" reign over all nations and peoples on earth (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; Zechariah 14).

Thus your idea that the "house of Israel" will be first gathered to some HOLDING PLACE outside the holy land so the dregs can be purged out of them, is obviously a doctrine created by FALSE JEWS of the "synagogue of Satan", and is similar to their false Pre-trib Rapture theory also.

I realize there are some 'believing' Jews that think they are going to trek to rock hideouts like Petra for the time of "great tribulation" and the day of Christ's coming to be under God's protection. It will not be well for those, as Isaiah 2:12-21 holds a fate of fearfulness for those who go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of The LORD.

43 And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed.
44 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have wrought with you for My name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord God.
KJV

Then the above is for after... Christ has gathered His 'faithful' Church with Him to the holy land, to begin His future reign over all nations from there with His elect.

 

[Zao is life]

Romans 11

SALVATION AND THE NEW COVENANT

26b As it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion; he will remove ungodliness from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins."

Note: Paul is referring to the promise of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-33 in the above verses, which Jesus said is fulfilled in His blood.

It is also written in that (New Covenant) promise in Jeremiah that God will not cut off ALL the seed of Israel for all that they have done (Jeremiah 31:37), just as Paul confirms in Romans 9:6 and here again in Romans 11:4-5.

The Deliverer who took away their sins was Jesus, BUT:

7 Israel (the part that was hardened) failed to obtain what it was diligently seeking, but the elect (the remnant) obtained it. The rest were hardened.

(therefore):

28 As concerning the gospel, they (the rest who were hardened) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they (the elect, the remnant) are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. 29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

FULLNESS

25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Hardening has happened to part of Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel (Jews and Gentiles who have been grafted into Israel among its remnant) will be saved.

As it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion; he will remove ungodliness from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins."

12 Now if the fall of them (those who were hardened) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles (the FULLNESS of the Gentiles); how much more their FULLNESS?

(because)

23 Even IF they (the part of Israel that was hardened) do not continue in their unbelief - THEY will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you (Gentiles) were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches (who have been hardened) be grafted back into their own olive tree (IF they do not continue in their unbelief)?

(Note: If the hardened part of Israel has not been broken off from Israel, then they would not need to be grafted back into Israel again).

30 For as ye (Gentiles) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (the hardened part of Israel's) unbelief: 31 Even so have these (hardened Jews) also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy (IF they do not continue in their unbelief, so that they can be grafted back in again).

32 For God hath concluded all (all human beings - Jews and Gentiles, showing NO favoritism) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all (mercy upon all Jews and all Gentiles who do not continue in their unbelief).

(Also)

17 If some of the branches (those who were hardened) were broken off, and you (Gentiles), a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among them (the remnant of Israel who were not broken off) and participated in the richness of the olive root, 18 do not boast over the branches (who were broken off). But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

20b-23 Do not be arrogant and haughty, but fear! For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you. Yes, He has shown kindness toward you, provided you continue [epimeno] in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And even if they (the hardened Jews) do not continue [epimeno] in their unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

THERE IS NO FUTURE APPLICATION TO ROMANS 11 BECAUSE THE DELIVERER HAS ALREADY COME OUT OF ZION, AND HAS ALREADY ESTABLISHED THE PROMISED NEW COVENANT WITH THEM, AND HAS ALREADY TAKEN AWAY THEIR SINS.
​

@rebuilder 454
@bdavidc
(@Davy 's thread on "Settling the false theory of Replacement Theology")

 

[Davy]

THERE IS NO FUTURE APPLICATION TO ROMANS 11 BECAUSE THE DELIVERER HAS ALREADY COME OUT OF ZION, AND HAS ALREADY ESTABLISHED THE PROMISED NEW COVENANT WITH THEM, AND HAS ALREADY TAKEN AWAY THEIR SINS.​

Well, of course that above statement is not true, simply because Apostle Paul showed that Romans 11:25-27 is STILL PENDING TODAY.

Rom 11:25-27
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, 'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.'
KJV

That "blindness" is still upon UNBELIEVING Jews, not believing Jews. Paul calls that "blindness" a "spirit of slumber", which in the Greek means a 'spirit of lethargy, or stupor' (NT:2659).

That spiritual stupor upon blinded unbelieving Jews will not be removed until the day of Christ's future coming, which is the timing Paul was referring to with that "fulness of the Gentiles be come in," which is a pointer to only on the last day of this world when Jesus returns all Gentiles that will believe on Christ during this present world, will then be fulfilled.

If this were not so, then it would mean the Scripture Jesus spoke to the "Daughters of Jerusalem" when they will appear in shame at Christ's coming, and will wish for the mountains to "Fall on us", and for the hills to "Cover us", would be a lie (Luke 23:27-30). Likewise, per the end of Zechariah 12 it points to the unbelieving Jews being in shame when they see Christ's return, and they will mourn for Him like a long lost son...

Zech 12:9-10
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
KJV

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
KJV

And what all that means for the unbelieving Jews today that are still blinded to The Gospel, is that on that... day of Christ's future return, that... is when those unbelieving Jews will be faced with making their 'choice'... to believe, or not believe. Only then will that reference to Isaiah about all Israel being saved will be true. So we can only assume... that the majority of unbelieving Jews today will convert to Jesus Christ when they see Him coming in the clouds in our near future.

 

[Davy]

Let me iterate again brethren in Christ, like Apostle Paul had already taught in Romans 9:6-8, that Christ's Salvation is NOT about flesh-born seed, but for those who believe on The Promise which God originally gave first through Abraham, which is The Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is why in Galatians 3 Apostle Paul taught that those of FAITH have become the "children of Abraham" and inherit with faithful Abraham, and that means REGARDLESS OF FLESH BIRTH.

It is the FALSE JEWS of the "synagogue of Satan" that keep trying to USURP the heritage of God's Plan of Salvation through Christ for themselves as if they were its 'source', when God's Word points directly to Salvation through Christ of one's spirit/soul, and not one's flesh seed. It is our 'spirit' that Jesus showed that must be "born again" of The Spirit, not our flesh body (John 3).

The false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan" represent the "crept in unawares" of Jude 4. They are NOT flesh-born Israelites of the seed, but foreigners like the Canaanites who crept in among the children of Israel, with many of them later becoming converted Jews. That's why Jesus said those of the "synagogue of Satan" only claim... to be Jews (of the seed), but are not, and do lie.

Thus on the day of Christ's future return, at His separation of His sheep (Church) from the "goats", those "goats" represent those foreigners of the "crept in unawares" among the Jews that hide their real heritage of the nations and their serving Satan. This is why in John 8 Lord Jesus would point to those false Jew scribes and Pharisees of the "synagogue of Satan" as God not being their Father, but instead the devil as their father. Those are the ones who cause brother Judah many problems in the world today, those "goats", including deceiving true Judah.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, of course that above statement is not true, simply because Apostle Paul showed that Romans 11:25-27 is STILL PENDING TODAY.

It's still ongoing today because, as Zao is life showed, it's all about people being saved under the new covenant that was established by the blood of Christ. All Israel (The Israel of God/Spiritual Israel) has been getting saved for the past almost 2,000 years as people have put their faith in Christ and have been saved and have had their sins taken away by His blood of the new covenant. And once the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, all Israel will be saved. Jesus will return at that point.

Rom 11:25-27
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, 'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.'
KJV

That "blindness" is still upon UNBELIEVING Jews, not believing Jews. Paul calls that "blindness" a "spirit of slumber", which in the Greek means a 'spirit of lethargy, or stupor' (NT:2659).

Paul indicated that the blindness was removed from some of them in his day and he blindness has been removed from some others ever since and that will continue until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Paul indicated that those who were blinded in his day had stumbled, but they did not fall beyond recovery. He hoped to lead some of those who were blinded in his day to salvation by way of provoking them to jealousy by way of the salvation of the Gentiles.

 

[Davy]

And once the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, all Israel will be saved. Jesus will return at that point.

Uhppp...... I see a little hesitation there with that above idea. Jesus must return FIRST, and remove the spirit of stupor He put upon those unbelieving Jews, not the other way around. How mankind believes is NOT dependent on 'when' Jesus will return.

When the coming time of "great tribulation" begins, each soul how they believed going into it will remain in their same belief throughout it, until Lord Jesus returns. Otherwise Jesus' coming being "as a thief", like a surprise upon the wicked and unbelieving, would not be so like Jesus prophesied for the day of His future return.

Paul indicated that the blindness was removed from some of them in his day and he blindness has been removed from some others ever since and that will continue until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

NO, Paul did not indicate that spirit of slumber was already removed upon the MAJORITY of his brethren the Jews.

Paul showed you how it was that those of the seed of Israel like himself were separated apart to God, didn't you read it?...

Rom 11:4-5
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
KJV

Rom 11:7
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
KJV

Christ's Apostles and His Church at Jerusalem with the early Jewish disciples, and those Jews in the countries like with Acts 2 when The Gospel was preached to them, along with the scattered ten tribes, and even believing Gentiles with them, i.e., Christ's Church, all represent that "election of grace". Those of the seed of Israel among those represent that "remnant according to the election of grace."

That's the group the believing Jews belong to, which is separate... from the group of unbelieving Jews which God has subjected to the "spirit of slumber", which has still NOT yet been removed to this day.

Rom 11:7-8
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
KJV


So if... your Jewish buddies from today's nation of Israel are trying to sway you into believing the 'now', 'today', God is restoring the nation of Israel back to His original Promises He gave to their fathers, to include those Jews building their future 3rd temple in Jerusalem, then you will be giving up any and all Salvation Promises offered by God which can come ONLY through His Son Jesus Christ Who shed His Blood upon His cross for the remission of the sins of those who believe. You cannot serve two masters. Because of the 'unbelieving' Jew's rebelliousness still, God is getting ready to bring upon them "strong delusion" so that they will believe a 'lie', because they received not the love of the Truth, His Truth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Uhppp......

Did you have a stroke?

I see a little hesitation there with that above idea.

There was no hesitation.

Jesus must return FIRST, and remove the spirit of stupor He put upon those unbelieving Jews, not the other way around.

Where is this taught?

How mankind believes is NOT dependent on 'when' Jesus will return.

Once the last Gentile is saved, what would be the reason for any delay of His second coming?

When the coming time of "great tribulation" begins, each soul how they believed going into it will remain in their same belief throughout it, until Lord Jesus returns.

All you do is just make claims that you can't back up. You're all talk. Where is the scripture that backs up what you're saying?

NO, Paul did not indicate that spirit of slumber was already removed upon the MAJORITY of his brethren the Jews.

You have the worst reading comprehension skills of anyone I've ever seen in my life. Where did I say that he indicated that? Nowhere! Go to school and learn how to read. How does "some" mean "the majority"?

Paul showed you how it was that those of the seed of Israel like himself were separated apart to God, didn't you read it?...

Rom 11:4-5
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
KJV

Rom 11:7
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
KJV

Where did I say otherwise? Why is it that you have no reading comprehension skills? This is a serious question.

Christ's Apostles and His Church at Jerusalem with the early Jewish disciples, and those Jews in the countries like with Acts 2 when The Gospel was preached to them, along with the scattered ten tribes, and even believing Gentiles with them, i.e., Christ's Church, all represent that "election of grace". Those of the seed of Israel among those represent that "remnant according to the election of grace."

Of course. Again, where did I say otherwise?

That's the group the believing Jews belong to, which is separate... from the group of unbelieving Jews which God has subjected to the "spirit of slumber", which has still NOT yet been removed to this day.

Not been removed to this day? What are you talking about? You are not even reading the text carefully at all.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Who was Paul talking about in verse 11? Who stumbled? The rest who were blinded, right? Because of their stumble, salvation came to the Gentiles which, in turn, should provoke those who were blinded to jealousy. Then Paul points out that because he was "the apostle of the Gentiles" he wanted to provoke some of those who were blinded to jealousy himself in order to lead them to salvation.

This text is not talking about the future, it's talking about Paul's day. And when you read from there you can see that this process of provoking blinded Israelites to jealousy because of the salvation of the Gentiles would continue until "the fullness of the Gentiles" comes in.

Rom 11:7-8
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
KJV


So if... your Jewish buddies from today's nation of Israel are trying to sway you into believing the 'now', 'today', God is restoring the nation of Israel back to His original Promises He gave to their fathers, to include those Jews building their future 3rd temple in Jerusalem, then you will be giving up any and all Salvation Promises offered by God which can come ONLY through His Son Jesus Christ Who shed His Blood upon His cross for the remission of the sins of those who believe. You cannot serve two masters. Because of the 'unbelieving' Jew's rebelliousness still, God is getting ready to bring upon them "strong delusion" so that they will believe a 'lie', because they received not the love of the Truth, His Truth.

My Jewish buddies from today's nation of Israel? What in the world are you talking about?

 

[Keraz]

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against Me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

That is about the 'unbelievers' of the ten tribe "house of Israel" that still reject Jesus Christ as God's Promised Savior. That idea of purging out the rebels has been happening since Christ died on the cross and Christ has been preached to the western nations of Asia Minor and Europe where the majority of the ten tribes wound up in that "wilderness".

I see this Prophecy as literal.
It will happen when we Christian peoples gather together, soon after all of the holy Land has been cleared and cleansed, by the Lord. Zephaniah 1:14-18
Many Prophesies tell of the great second Exodus of the Lord's holy peoples, Isaiah 35, Jeremiah 30 & 31, and they are there when the Anti-Christ beast, takes world control. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7

ISRAEL AND JUDAH – not rejoined as yet.
The Bible has over 160 instances in the same verse, where Israel and Judah are mentioned as different entities. It’s clear that they are not to be rejoined until after the Middle East is cleared and His people are regathered, judged and settled together in all of the Holy Land, Deuteronomy 32:34-43

Mainstream Church teaching, especially Catholic, says that the Jews now in the Land are all Israel. Some teach Replacement theology, where their Church is now the new Israel.
Have they rejoined already? Josephus, the Jewish historian, circa 100AD, wrote that the 10 lost tribes were a great multitude, then living beyond the Euphrates River.

In the Talmud, Rabbi’s Akiva and Eliezer circa 200AD, discuss the question of when the 10 lost tribes would return. So, only Judah was present at that time.

So, we await the fulfilment of these prophecies;
Ezekiel 37:21-22 I am going to take the Israelites [the 2 tribes of Judah and the 10 tribes of Israel.] from their places of exile among the nations. I shall assemble them from every quarter and restore them to their own soil. I shall make them a single nation in the Land and one leader will be over them all. No longer will they be two nations or divided into two Kingdoms. Ezekiel 20:32-38

Jeremiah 50:4-5 In those days and at that time [ after the land has been cleansed] The people of Israel and the people of Judah will come together and in tears go in search of their God. They will ask the way to Zion, turning towards her and saying; Come, let us join ourselves to the Lord in everlasting covenant.

Hosea 1:11 The people of Judah and Israel will be reunited and will choose for themselves one leader. [This must be before the Return of Jesus]
Micah 7:8-10 My enemies, do not exult over me [ Israel] Though I have fallen, I will rise again. Though I sit in darkness, the Lord will be my light. Because I have sinned against the Lord I must bear His anger until He pleads my case, gives judgement and establishes my rights. Then my enemies will see it and be shamed – those who said “where is your God “. I will see their downfall, they will be trampled like mud on the streets.

Micah 7:11-12 The day for rebuilding and extending your boundaries will come. A day when Your people will return to the Land, from every sea and every mountain. Isaiah 66:18b-21, Psalms 107, Revelation 7:9-13

Zechariah 1:18-21 The four horns [ nations, peoples.] that scattered Judah and Israel. Assyria, Babylon, Rome and now Islam.
The four smiths [destroyers] have come to overthrow them.

Hosea 2:23 [New] Israel will be My new sowing in the Land, I will love them and say to them: “You are My people” and they will say “You are our God”. Romans 9:24-26
Ref, REB, NIV, KJV.

 

[Davy]

I see this Prophecy as literal.
It will happen when we Christian peoples gather together, soon after all of the holy Land has been cleared and cleansed, by the Lord. Zephaniah 1:14-18
Many Prophesies tell of the great second Exodus of the Lord's holy peoples, Isaiah 35, Jeremiah 30 & 31, and they are there when the Anti-Christ beast, takes world control. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7

I already showed the connection of the Hosea 2 prophecy with the Ezekiel 20 prophecy being for when God gave the "house of Israel" The New Covenant in the new lands He called the "wilderness". No need for me to re-hash that fulfilled part of that prophecy again.

 

[Zao is life]

Let me iterate again brethren in Christ, like Apostle Paul had already taught in Romans 9:6-8, that Christ's Salvation is NOT about flesh-born seed, but for those who believe on The Promise which God originally gave first through Abraham, which is The Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is why in Galatians 3 Apostle Paul taught that those of FAITH have become the "children of Abraham" and inherit with faithful Abraham, and that means REGARDLESS OF FLESH BIRTH.​

​

Paul showed that Romans 11:25-27 is STILL PENDING TODAY.

Rom 11:25-27
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, 'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.'​

You contradict yourself in your posts.

In the New Covenant Israel (comprised of human beings who are flesh) is IN Christ, the seed of Abraham.

The people who are in Christ are flesh-born Jews and Gentiles who together make up the Temple of God.

Jeremiah 31:37: Not ALL the descendants of Israel would be cut off when the New Covenant comes.
Romans 11:1-17: Not ALL the descendants of Israel were cut off when the New Covenant came.
Romans 9:6: Not ALL those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel.

Jeremiah 31
37 The LORD says, "I will not reject ALL the descendants of Israel because of all that they have done. That could only happen if the heavens above could be measured or the foundations of the earth below could all be explored," says the LORD. NetFree Version.

Romans 11
2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew! Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars; I alone am left and they are seeking my life!"
4 But what was the divine response to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand people who have not bent the knee to Baal."
5 So in the same way at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Romans 9
6 It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel NetFree Version.

First you say that whether or not someone is considered the seed of Abraham has nothing to do with the flesh. Then you say that Paul is talking only about the flesh-seed of Israel when he talks about the seed of Israel being given a covenant when their sins are taken away.

25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The Deliverer will come out of Zion;
he will remove ungodliness from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them,
when I take away their sins."

There is only one covenant which includes a promise to take away the sins of Israel: The promised New Covenant, which is the New Covenant in Christ's blood (Jeremiah 31:31-33; Matthew 26:28).

Just as Paul states that a remnant of Israel remained (part of Israel was not hardened, Romans 11:4-5), so it is written (where the New Covenant promise is given), that God will never cut off ALL the seed of Israel for all that they have done (Jeremiah 31:37).

The Deliverer who took away their sins, was Jesus, BUT:

In Romans 11:7 Paul states that the elect remnant of Israel's flesh-descendants obtained what Israel was diligently seeking, but the rest were hardened. The rest did not obtain it. This is what Paul is still referring to when he says in Romans 11:28-29:

Romans 11:28-29:
"As concerning the gospel, they (the rest who were hardened) are enemies, and this has been to the Gentiles' benefit (because salvation was extended to the Gentiles through the rejection of God's salvation on the part of Israel that was cut off); but as touching the election, they (the elect remnant of Israel) are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."

Paul is also talking about the fact that the believing Gentiles are grafted in among the elect remnant of Israel's flesh-seed, and these two elect groups are those whom he calls "ALL Israel" in Romans 11:26 - because he mentions WHY they are Israel in Romans 11:27:

25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The Deliverer will come out of Zion;
he will remove ungodliness from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them,
when I take away their sins."

You're reading the flesh-descendants of Israel into the above (who have been broken off) and then you say that the flesh-descendants do not matter, contradicting yourself.

Speaking to the Gentiles who believe in Christ, in Romans 11:22-23 Paul tells the Gentiles that God has shown them kindness and will continue to show them kindness, "provided you continue [epimeno] in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."

Then Paul says that IF any (citizens of or members of) the hardened part of Israel do not continue [epimeno] in their unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again."

Gentiles must make sure that they continue in God's kindness.
Jews - the part of Israel that was broken off through unbelief - must not continue in their unbelief.
​

Note: If the hardened part of Israel had not been broken off from Israel and if it has not remained broken off, then individual Jews would not need to be grafted back into Israel after repenting from unbelief to faith in Christ.

In verse 32 Paul states that God has consigned ALL (all human beings - Jews and Gentiles, showing NO favoritism) to unbelief, in order that he might have mercy upon ALL who do not continue in their unbelief.

You have no basis for saying that unbelieving Jews will be saved when Christ returns, but unbelieving Gentiles will not be saved. According to you Zechariah is telling us that God will show favor toward one group of unbelieving flesh (Jews) but not the other group (Gentiles) when Jerusalem is attacked by all nations.

(Like God showed favor toward one group of unbelieving flesh in the days of Noah?).

The flesh-descendants of Jacob are not BOTH "Israel" and "Not Israel" all at the same time. But SOME were broken off at the time of Christ. But not ALL Abraham's descendants were broken off.

There is no future application to Romans 11:25-27 because Paul has already explained who "ALL Israel" is, and in Romans 11:27 he links those whom he is calling "ALL Israel" to the New Covenant in Christ's blood.

God does not care about what anyone likes, or about who anyone wants to identify as "ALL Israel".

You need to get on God's side about this and enroll yourself into God's theological college, and drop the ideas produced in human imagination.​

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You contradict yourself in your posts.

In the New Covenant Israel (comprised of human beings who are flesh) is IN Christ, the seed of Abraham.

The people who are in Christ are flesh-born Jews and Gentiles who together make up the Temple of God.

Jeremiah 31:37: Not ALL the descendants of Israel would be cut off when the New Covenant comes.
Romans 11:1-17: Not ALL the descendants of Israel were cut off when the New Covenant came.
Romans 9:6: Not ALL those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel.

Jeremiah 31
37 The LORD says, "I will not reject ALL the descendants of Israel because of all that they have done. That could only happen if the heavens above could be measured or the foundations of the earth below could all be explored," says the LORD. NetFree Version.

Romans 11
2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew! Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars; I alone am left and they are seeking my life!"
4 But what was the divine response to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand people who have not bent the knee to Baal."
5 So in the same way at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Romans 9
6 It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel NetFree Version.

First you say that whether or not someone is considered the seed of Abraham has nothing to do with the flesh. Then you say that Paul is talking only about the flesh-seed of Israel when he talks about the seed of Israel being given a covenant when their sins are taken away.

25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The Deliverer will come out of Zion;
he will remove ungodliness from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them,
when I take away their sins."

There is only one covenant which includes a promise to take away the sins of Israel: The promised New Covenant, which is the New Covenant in Christ's blood (Jeremiah 31:31-33; Matthew 26:28).

Just as Paul states that a remnant of Israel remained (part of Israel was not hardened, Romans 11:4-5), so it is written (where the New Covenant promise is given), that God will never cut off ALL the seed of Israel for all that they have done (Jeremiah 31:37).

The Deliverer who took away their sins, was Jesus, BUT:

In Romans 11:7 Paul states that the elect remnant of Israel's flesh-descendants obtained what Israel was diligently seeking, but the rest were hardened. The rest did not obtain it. This is what Paul is still referring to when he says in Romans 11:28-29:

Romans 11:28-29:
"As concerning the gospel, they (the rest who were hardened) are enemies, and this has been to the Gentiles' benefit (because salvation was extended to the Gentiles through the rejection of God's salvation on the part of Israel that was cut off); but as touching the election, they (the elect remnant of Israel) are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."

Paul is also talking about the fact that the believing Gentiles are grafted in among the elect remnant of Israel's flesh-seed, and these two elect groups are those whom he calls "ALL Israel" in Romans 11:26 - because he mentions WHY they are Israel in Romans 11:27:

25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The Deliverer will come out of Zion;
he will remove ungodliness from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them,
when I take away their sins."

You're reading the flesh-descendants of Israel into the above (who have been broken off) and then you say that the flesh-descendants do not matter, contradicting yourself.

Speaking to the Gentiles who believe in Christ, in Romans 11:22-23 Paul tells the Gentiles that God has shown them kindness and will continue to show them kindness, "provided you continue [epimeno] in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."

Then Paul says that IF any (citizens of or members of) the hardened part of Israel do not continue [epimeno] in their unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again."

Gentiles must make sure that they continue in God's kindness.
Jews - the part of Israel that was broken off through unbelief - must not continue in their unbelief.
​

Note: If the hardened part of Israel had not been broken off from Israel and if it has not remained broken off, then individual Jews would not need to be grafted back into Israel after repenting from unbelief to faith in Christ.

In verse 32 Paul states that God has consigned ALL (all human beings - Jews and Gentiles, showing NO favoritism) to unbelief, in order that he might have mercy upon ALL who do not continue in their unbelief.

You have no basis for saying that unbelieving Jews will be saved when Christ returns, but unbelieving Gentiles will not be saved. According to you Zechariah is telling us that God will show favor toward one group of unbelieving flesh (Jews) but not the other group (Gentiles) when Jerusalem is attacked by all nations.

(Like God showed favor toward one group of unbelieving flesh in the days of Noah?).

The flesh-descendants of Jacob are not BOTH "Israel" and "Not Israel" all at the same time. But SOME were broken off at the time of Christ. But not ALL Abraham's descendants were broken off.

There is no future application to Romans 11:25-27 because Paul has already explained who "ALL Israel" is, and in Romans 11:27 he links those whom he is calling "ALL Israel" to the New Covenant in Christ's blood.

God does not care about what anyone likes, or about who anyone wants to identify as "ALL Israel".

You need to get on God's side about this and enroll yourself into God's theological college, and drop the ideas produced in human imagination.​

Excellent. Very well said.

 

[Davy]

Excellent. Very well said.

No back patting, that's against the forum rules.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No back patting, that's against the forum rules.

Excellent. Very well said.

 

[Davy]

Let's see what deceived Jews... say against Apostle Paul's words in Romans 9:3-8 that God's True Israel is NOT about literal flesh seed, but about Faith on The Gospel Promise He first gave through Abraham.

You contradict yourself in your posts.​

One will discover that it is you... that contradict the written Bible Scripture in favor or fleshy doctrines of men.

In the New Covenant Israel (comprised of human beings who are flesh) is IN Christ, the seed of Abraham.

The people who are in Christ are flesh-born Jews and Gentiles who together make up the Temple of God.​

The people of God, Apostle Paul revealed, are those who believe by Faith on God's Promise to Abraham, and that is why Paul said those of Faith are the same as the "children of Abraham"...

Gal 3:7
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
KJV

Do 'dat mean believing Gentiles who believe on God's Promise by Faith as Abraham did? YEP!! So then, it has NOTHING to do with FLESH SEED. Anyone who tries to argue against what Paul said above is just showing their ignorance and backwardness.

Jeremiah 31
37 The LORD says, "I will not reject ALL the descendants of Israel because of all that they have done. That could only happen if the heavens above could be measured or the foundations of the earth below could all be explored," says the LORD. NetFree Version.
​

IRRELEVANT, simply because the flesh descendants of Israel MUST... also BELIEVE BY FAITH on God's Promise to Abraham. NO EXCUSES. And that means flesh birth is NOT ENOUGH.

The difference is that those born of the seed of Israel have been placed in a duty, or 'responsibility' to ALL PEOPLES to be carriers and keepers of The Gospel of Jesus Christ to the nations. This is why The Gospel had to be preached first at Jerusalem. And once the majority at Jerusalem rejected Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, The Gospel then went to the Gentiles of whom the majority of the scattered Ten Tribes of Israel had migrated among, and both became Christ's Church and the historical western Christian nations. And this scattering also included a remnant of the Jews of the "house of Judah" that were scattered also among them, from their Babylon captivity.

Romans 11
2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew! Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars; I alone am left and they are seeking my life!"
4 But what was the divine response to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand people who have not bent the knee to Baal."
5 So in the same way at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
​

And that "remnant" represents the seed of Israel, ALONG WITH believing Gentiles, as Christ's Church. It means even that "remnant" STILL MUST BELIEVE THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST BY FAITH.

The difference with those Jews whom Paul wished at least some of could be saved, is that God spiritually blinded the unbelieving Jews, put the "spirit of slumber" upon them. SO WHERE IS THAT PART OF THE ROMANS 11 SCRIPTURE YOU INTENTIONALLY LEFT OUT?

Oh... here it is....

Rom 11:7-10
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
KJV


So WHY... DID YOU OMIT THAT PART OF THE ROMANS 11 SCRIPTURE ABOVE ABOUT THAT "SPIRIT OF SLUMBER" UPON THE UNBELIEVING JEWS??


This is SO... EASY to disprove what deceived Jews claim, just by KEEPING TO GOD'S WORD AS WRITTEN THAT THEY INTENTIONALLY LEAVE OUT.

 

[Zao is life]

Let's see what deceived Jews... say against Apostle Paul's words in Romans 9:3-8 that God's True Israel is NOT about literal flesh seed, but about Faith on The Gospel Promise He first gave through Abraham.




One will discover that it is you... that contradict the written Bible Scripture in favor or fleshy doctrines of men.



The people of God, Apostle Paul revealed, are those who believe by Faith on God's Promise to Abraham, and that is why Paul said those of Faith are the same as the "children of Abraham"...

Gal 3:7
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
KJV

Do 'dat mean believing Gentiles who believe on God's Promise by Faith as Abraham did? YEP!! So then, it has NOTHING to do with FLESH SEED. Anyone who tries to argue against what Paul said above is just showing their ignorance and backwardness.




IRRELEVANT, simply because the flesh descendants of Israel MUST... also BELIEVE BY FAITH on God's Promise to Abraham. NO EXCUSES. And that means flesh birth is NOT ENOUGH.

The difference is that those born of the seed of Israel have been placed in a duty, or 'responsibility' to ALL PEOPLES to be carriers and keepers of The Gospel of Jesus Christ to the nations. This is why The Gospel had to be preached first at Jerusalem. And once the majority at Jerusalem rejected Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, The Gospel then went to the Gentiles of whom the majority of the scattered Ten Tribes of Israel had migrated among, and both became Christ's Church and the historical western Christian nations. And this scattering also included a remnant of the Jews of the "house of Judah" that were scattered also among them, from their Babylon captivity.




And that "remnant" represents the seed of Israel, ALONG WITH believing Gentiles, as Christ's Church. It means even that "remnant" STILL MUST BELIEVE THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST BY FAITH.

The difference with those Jews whom Paul wished at least some of could be saved, is that God spiritually blinded the unbelieving Jews, put the "spirit of slumber" upon them. SO WHERE IS THAT PART OF THE ROMANS 11 SCRIPTURE YOU INTENTIONALLY LEFT OUT?

Oh... here it is....

Rom 11:7-10
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
KJV


So WHY... DID YOU OMIT THAT PART OF THE ROMANS 11 SCRIPTURE ABOVE ABOUT THAT "SPIRIT OF SLUMBER" UPON THE UNBELIEVING JEWS??


This is SO... EASY to disprove what deceived Jews claim, just by KEEPING TO GOD'S WORD AS WRITTEN THAT THEY INTENTIONALLY LEAVE OUT.

I have not omitted anything. You have inserted a meaning into the text that does not belong there.

If you understand scripture, you will understand that Paul is repeating Jesus' reference to the pattern that had existed throughout the history of Judah:

Uzziah: 10th king of Judah

Isaiah 6
1 In the year that king Uzziah died (740/739 B.C) I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
12 And Yhwh have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

Isaiah 6: Talking about THE REMNANT
13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

It was a prophecy about (what was then still) the coming exile of Judah to Babylon (597-587 B.C).

Only a remnant (1/10th) were saved, and only the faithful remnant returned from Babylonian exile 70 years later. The rest had been broken off and remained broken off. Many others remained in Babylon by choice. They had been and remained broken off forever.

Jesus: Talking about the rest of the Jews who were about to be broken off - and referring back to Isaiah's prophecy about those ancient Jews - in order to point out that the same pattern has continued throughout the history of the Jews:

Matthew 13​

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:​

15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Jesus to THE REMNANT (in the same passage):
"But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." Matthew 13:16

Paul (talking about the rest who had been broken off):

Romans 11
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
​

Again, Like Jesus, Paul is referring back to Isaiah's prophecy about ancient Judah and to the same pattern that repeats itself with the Jews when he talks about what is written. That's why he ends his sentence with "unto this day".

Romans 11: Paul talking about THE REMNANT:

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Like Jesus, Paul is referring to the same pattern happening throughout Judah's history. HE IS NOT PROPHESYING THAT THE REST WHO WERE BROKEN OFF WILL RETURN. Why would they, when Paul and Jesus are both referring to Isaiah referring to the Jews who were broken off from Israel and from covenant relationship with God and, aside from a remnant that remained in the land and a remnant that returned from Babylonian captivity 70 years later, never returned?

First Jesus and then Paul are referring to the historical pattern - NOT making a prophecy about the return of the rest. Both were pointing out that the part of Israel (of the whole house of Israel) that remained after the ten northern tribes were cut off by God (i.e house of Judah) continued to exist at the time of the Babylonian captivity because of the remnant that remained.
​

And as it was then, so it was in the 1st century A.D - and Paul's entire Romans 11 (actually from Romans 9) is talking about the fact that the house of Judah continued to exist because of the remnant that remained, while the rest were broken off.

If you would stop being determined to insert a return of the majority into what Paul is saying in Romans 11, then and only then will your eyes begin to be opened to what PAUL is saying (instead of what you are saying).