A proof that the 1000 year reign of Christ with His people is in the heavenly throne room, not the earth

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope. Not one second coming passage shows anything of the sort.

Agree. There's not one second coming passage, there's more than one second coming passage which shows that.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Why does Paul say that those in spiritual darkness will not escape the "sudden destruction" that will occur when the Lord Jesus comes as a thief in the night? Because of what Peter taught about the same event.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

No unbelievers can escape the earth being burned up when Jesus comes as a thief in the night. Believers will be changed to put on bodily immortality at that time.

 

[Scott Downey]

When Christ returns, we shall all be changed, there will no longer be flesh and blood people with mortal bodies.
Note that Paul says we shall not all sleep
This can only be referring to the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
And we know the dead are raised when Christ returns

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

When scripture talks of sleeping, it is referring to the body not the spirit of a man.
That 'we shall not all sleep', refers to the truth that some flesh and blood people shall be living in their mortal bodies at the return of the Christ, all the others died in the Lord Jesus, their life is hidden with Christ in God.

Colossians 3
If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

This 'for you died; is a different aspect of death, it is not physical death of the body. However, the dead in the Lord Jesus, their life is also hid in Christ with God, we are all of one body.

This, 'but we shall all be changed', refers to that not a single resurrected saint in the Lord Jesus will retain a flesh and blood body.

1 Cor 15

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55 “O[n] Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

 

[Marty fox]

Now you need to show how all that doesn't contradict Revelation 3:21, the fact that verse teaches, in light of Matthew 25:31, for instance, that overcomers don't sit with Christ in Christ's throne until He returns first.

Do I have to answer it or does Paul?

Very well then

Revelation 3:21
21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

I don’t see a contradiction here we are already victorious over sin and death because of Jesus

Matthew 25:31
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.

No contradiction here either as the following verse show that this is the judgement seat.

Why don’t you just believe what Paul clearly taught showing that revelation 20:4 is already fulfilled? Paul showed that we are already spiritually raised to life, spiritually seated with Jesus and spiritually reigning in life

If Paul is wrong then the New Testament is wrong

 

[Marilyn C]

Yes, this reign in heaven is ongoing today, not in the future only. My point is this scripture has been used as evidence for a future reign only on the earth of a thousand years.

Christians will reign on the earth, but it will be the new earth Christians will inherit, an earth where only righteousness will be dwelling, and God will dwell with man with the New Jerusalem descending from Heaven. There will not be any Satanic rebellion or decieving of the nations. The whole reigning on the old earth of Christ is one of those Christian myths.

I agree that the Lord does NOT reign physically on the earth but He will through Israel.

Now where does God`s word say we, the Body of Christ will reign ON the earth?

 

[Marilyn C]

You are now Amil and no longer Premil? The OP is arguing Amil.

Thank you, Got it.

I do agree with Scott however, that the Lord will not reign physically on the earth but through Israel. I disagree with him saying we will reign on the earth. There are no scriptures for that. The Body of Christ will never reign on the earth but OVER the earth.

 

[Marilyn C]

Do I have to answer it or does Paul?

Very well then

Revelation 3:21
21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

I don’t see a contradiction here we are already victorious over sin and death because of Jesus

Matthew 25:31
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.

No contradiction here either as the following verse show that this is the judgement seat.

Why don’t you just believe what Paul clearly taught showing that revelation 20:4 is already fulfilled? Paul showed that we are already spiritually raised to life, spiritually seated with Jesus and spiritually reigning in life

If Paul is wrong then the New Testament is wrong

Jesus is presently at the Father`s right hand and is told to sit there TILL the Father makes His enemies His footstool.

`The LORD (Father) said to my Lord (Son) "Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool.` (Ps. 110: 1)

And that is still now. The Lord`s enemies are not presently at His footstool for judgment. The Father soon will send His Son to gather His body and take them to the third heaven where they will take part in His visible inauguration as Sovereign King over all God`s Kingdom. (Acts 3: 20 & 21 1 Thess. 4: 14 - 17 Rev. 4: 2 - 4)

Rev. 20: 4 saints are those out of the great tribulation who had been beheaded for their witness of Jesus and not worshipped the A/C. The Body of Christ, represented by the 24 elders are already in heaven and are the heavenly court that judges fallen angels and the world system. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

 

[Marilyn C]

The Millenium, the "thousand years", is on Earth because Rev 19 says the reign is over the nations with a rod of iron and the nations are on the Earth. There are no unsaved nations in heaven or the throne room. Rev 5 also speaks of a reign on Earth, matching the reign over the Earthly nations.

Even in Amill the Millennium is on Earth, with living saints reigning here while Christ reigns from heaven. That still is a Earthly reign.

I agree that the thousand years on earth is where the Lord reigns over the nations. However, the Body of Christ is in heaven with the Lord also ruling over the nations.

You see Rev. 5: 10 has the word `epi` which can mean over or on. `And has made us kings and priests to our God and we shall reign `EPI,` the earth.` (Rev. 5: 10) Thus we need more scriptures to show which word it is - over or on. As we are told we are with the Lord on His throne and He rulers over the nation of the earth, then we are in heaven also. (Rev. 3: 21)

 

[Davidpt]

Now where does God`s word say we, the Body of Christ will reign ON the earth?

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests : and we shall reign on the earth.

How about here, for one? Compare with the following. Both have what I underlined in common.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign(as kings, obviously) with him a thousand years.


Not to mention, verses 8-9 also prove that verses 4,6 are involving the earth not heaven.

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth , Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth , and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

How is it reasonable than none of this is involving anyone mentioned in verses 4,6? How can the camp of the saints be excluding the ones mentioned in verses 4,6?

Even beginning with verse 1 it is the earth that is in view the fact an angel comes down from heaven and binds satan. Comes down to where? The earth, obviously. Exactly where Revelation 12 places him following the war in heaven---Revelation 12:9. Therefore, we at least know Revelation 20:1 is meaning after Revelation 12:9 is fulfilled. Immediately after, though? I wouldn't think so the fact Revelation 12:14, which is what he does first once he sees he is cast unto the earth, does not even remotely resemble anything pertaining to Revelation 20:1-3.

 

[Marilyn C]

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests : and we shall reign on the earth.

How about here, for one? Compare with the following. Both have what I underlined in common.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign(as kings, obviously) with him a thousand years.


Not to mention, verses 8-9 also prove that verses 4,6 are involving the earth not heaven.

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth , Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth , and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

How is it reasonable than none of this is involving anyone mentioned in verses 4,6? How can the camp of the saints be excluding the ones mentioned in verses 4,6?

Even beginning with verse 1 it is the earth that is in view the fact an angel comes down from heaven and binds satan. Comes down to where? The earth, obviously. Exactly where Revelation 12 places him following the war in heaven---Revelation 12:9. Therefore, we at least know Revelation 20:1 is meaning after Revelation 12:9 is fulfilled. Immediately after, though? I wouldn't think so the fact Revelation 12:14, which is what he does first once he sees he is cast unto the earth, does not even remotely resemble anything pertaining to Revelation 20:1-3.

Hi David,

We shall reign `Epi ` the earth. Over or on.

The Body of Christ is already ON the throne with Christ in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21) The Rev. 20: 6 saints are those who were martyred in the great Trib. And the Rev. 20: 8 saints are those who turned to God in the millennium.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree that the Lord does NOT reign physically on the earth but He will through Israel.

Now where does God`s word say we, the Body of Christ will reign ON the earth?

Are we not on the earth right now? Are we not kings and priests of God and Christ right now? Scripture says we are.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Scott Downey]

Thank you, Got it.

I do agree with Scott however, that the Lord will not reign physically on the earth but through Israel. I disagree with him saying we will reign on the earth. There are no scriptures for that. The Body of Christ will never reign on the earth but OVER the earth.

I know of one scripture. but I believe it to be the NEW earth after Christ's return, not this old earth.
And also consider at the end of the book, in the eternal state, the NEW Jerusalem descends out of heaven from God onto the NEW earth and God dwells with them there

Revelation 5
9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made [a]us kings[b] and priests to our God;
And [c]we shall reign on the earth.”
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,

******************
By them saying we shall reign on the earth, this means they are not reigning there yet.

Also consider Christ saying

Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.

Revelation 21:7
He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

 

[Marilyn C]

Are we not on the earth right now? Are we not kings and priests of God and Christ right now? Scripture says we are.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Yes we are kings and priests and those offices are for the higher realm. Note on earth there is only a King and priests. (Ez. 37: 24 Isa. 66: 21)
They are separate offices.

 

[Marilyn C]

I know of one scripture. but I believe it to be the NEW earth after Christ's return, not this old earth.
And also consider at the end of the book, in the eternal state, the NEW Jerusalem descends out of heaven from God onto the NEW earth and God dwells with them there

Revelation 5
9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made [a]us kings[b] and priests to our God;
And [c]we shall reign on the earth.”
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,

******************
By them saying we shall reign on the earth, this means they are not reigning there yet.

Also consider Christ saying

Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.

Revelation 21:7
He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

Rev. 5: 10 has the word `epi` meaning over or on. Thus we need to look at other scriptures in relation to that. We, the Body of Christ are told that we will sit with Christ on His own throne. God the Father set that throne on Mount Zion, (Ps. 2: 6 Heb. 12: 22) in the third heaven. That throne is set and does not move. It is the seat of power and authority of the Lord over all of God`s great kingdom.

Note that the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven FROM God. Jesus and the Father have their authority there (thrones) but NOT their seat of power and authority. (Rev. 21: 2)

The meek are of Israel for that is whom Jesus is addressing.

`All things` are given to the Body of Christ who is with the Lord in the highest over all God`s great kingdom. (Eph. 1: 22 & 23)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes we are kings and priests and those offices are for the higher realm. Note on earth there is only a King and priests. (Ez. 37: 24 Isa. 66: 21)
They are separate offices.

We are kings and priests now on the earth. I don't know what you're talking about by saying "those offices are for the higher realm". No, it's a reality right now on earth. It's sad that you don't realize it.

 

[Marilyn C]

We are kings and priests now on the earth. I don't know what you're talking about by saying "those offices are for the higher realm". No, it's a reality right now on earth. It's sad that you don't realize it.

So as King who are you ruling over?

We are made kings and priests, however there is a proving time of being overcomers. First to rule in our own life and also to intercede for others. We will not have full function till we are with the Lord on His own throne in the highest over all God`s great kingdom.

 

[Scott Downey]

Rev. 5: 10 has the word `epi` meaning over or on. Thus we need to look at other scriptures in relation to that. We, the Body of Christ are told that we will sit with Christ on His own throne. God the Father set that throne on Mount Zion, (Ps. 2: 6 Heb. 12: 22) in the third heaven. That throne is set and does not move. It is the seat of power and authority of the Lord over all of God`s great kingdom.

Note that the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven FROM God. Jesus and the Father have their authority there (thrones) but NOT their seat of power and authority. (Rev. 21: 2)

The meek are of Israel for that is whom Jesus is addressing.

`All things` are given to the Body of Christ who is with the Lord in the highest over all God`s great kingdom. (Eph. 1: 22 & 23)

God made the earth to be inhabited.
What is the purpose of the New earth, the same thing, to be inhabited.
Who inhabits the New earth?
I see God dwells there with His people.
Sounds like reigning 'on' the earth is an acceptable verse
OVER is not in character of what is going on here, as in reigning over the earth as it means a kind of holy separation from His people.
The emphasis is God is in direct face to face contact with all of His people.

For some reason, you do not think much of God's New Jerusalem city with God dwelling there then?

Rev 21
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

 

[Marilyn C]

God made the earth to be inhabited.
What is the purpose of the New earth, the same thing, to be inhabited.
Who inhabits the New earth?
I see God dwells there with His people.
Sounds like reigning 'on' the earth is an acceptable verse
OVER is not in character of what is going on here, as in reigning over the earth as it means a kind of holy separation from His people.
The emphasis is God is in direct face to face contact with all of His people.

For some reason, you do not think much of God's New Jerusalem city with God dwelling there then?

Rev 21
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

God is omnipresent - everywhere present by His Holy Spirit.

The New earth is populated by the saved of the nations. (Rev. 21: 24)
The New Jerusalem is the light over the earth and is populated by the Old Testament saints as God promised them. (Heb. 11: 16)
The Third heaven is the seat of power and authority of the Lord, on Mount Zion, set there by the Father. The Body of Christ (called out of Israel and called out of the nations) is with the Lord there.(Ps. 2: 6)

Each realm has people that God has prepared to rule there. God is overall. (1 Cor. 15: 28)