The Jerusalem which is above is the heavenly city of promise which God has prepared for His saints

[Zao is life]

Something melting does not necessarily result in it being annihilated. Also, it doesn't say the earth will be annihilated, so I think it's just the earth's surface that will be burned up. In my view the earth will be changed similarly to how our bodies will be changed (1 Cor 15:50-54). But, it doesn't say our bodies will be annihilated and replaced, it says they will be changed. The body of Jesus was not annihilated but was resurrected and changed to be such that He could appear seemingly out of nowhere in a locked building.

Agreed. He by whom all (created) things were created and in whom all (created) things consist declares He will make all (created) things new.

There is no "create" implied in the Greek word used for "make" in Revelation 21:5.

Besides this, the Greek words used in 2 Peter 3:10 do not necessarily mean a (complete) destruction of the present heavens and earth (and I really don't understand why no one seems to think it's important to study carefully what Peter said about this).

I have studied it carefully, and this is what I found:

2 Peter 3:10:
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [parérchomai] with a great noise, and the elements [stoicheîon] shall be dissolved [lýō] with fervent heat, the earth also and the works [érgon] that are therein shall be burned up."

1. stoicheîon: The word is referring either to the rudiments or principles of this world, or to the principles of the oracles of God in each of the other five verses where the same word is used, for example:

Colossians 2:8:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments [stoicheîon] of the world, and not after Christ.

Hebrews 5:12:
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles [stoicheîon] of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

The word stoicheîon is also used in the same sense as above in Galatians 4:3; Galatians 4:9; and Colossians 2:20.

2. lýō (or luo) ("dissolved" in 2 Peter 3:10): In the rest of the N.T it always refers to something that was bound or restrained, being loosed (i.e loosed from having been bound), for example:

Mark 7:35
"And straightway his ears were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed [luo], and he spake plain."

3. parérchomai: Used variously:-

Used for "passing by", "passing closeby", "coming near"; OR "seizing upon or to come upon" (at times suddenly). OR in reference to a time that has passed.

In the context of the Day of the LORD coming as a thief in the night, the word parérchomai could be carrying the idea of "seizing upon, suddenly". If not, then 2 Peter 3:10 is the only verse where the word carries an entirely different meaning than in any other verse where the word is used.

4. érgon ("the earth and the works [érgon] that are therein"):-

(i) In an extremely long list of verses, érgon refers to the works of men. At times it's referring to the works of Satan, and often it's referring to the works of God.

2 Peter 3:7:
"But the present heavens (ouranós) and the earth [gē] being kept in store by the same word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and DESTRUCTION OF UNGODLY MEN"

The burning up of the rudiments and principles [stoicheîon] of this world, and the works [érgon] of darkness (the works of men and of Satan) goes with the context of the destruction of ungodly men (2 Peter 3:7).

So how likely is it that Peter was referring to the burning up of the chemical elements of the earth and of the universe, and of God's works of creation?

"Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved [lýō], what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire [pyro] shall be dissolved [lýō], and the elements [stoicheion] shall melt with fervent heat?" (2 Peter 3:11-12).

Pyro: πυρόω pyro (Strongs Greek Dictionary 4448):

to kindle, i.e. (passively) to be ignited, glow (literally), OR be refined, (by implication), OR (figuratively) to be inflamed (with anger, grief, lust):--burn, fiery, be on fire, try.

If the word is being used figuratively in 2 Peter 3:12, then by implication the earth is being refined. If it's being used literally, then the earth is literally being burned up.

But the context is the destruction of the works of men and the destruction of ungodly men:

2 Peter 3:7:
"But the present heavens (ouranós) and the earth [gē] being kept in store by the same word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and DESTRUCTION OF UNGODLY MEN"

"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." (2 Peter 3:13).

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:16-17).

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.In him was life [zoe]; and the life [zoe] was the light of men." (John 1:3-4)

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful." (Revelation 21:5).

I agree with what you say except for the fire covering the earth part (you could be correct but I don't know whether or not you are correct). IMO it's what Paul referred to in Romans 8:19-23 as a regeneration of all things.​

 

[Zao is life]

They will symbolize everything into a virtualized nonsense, unreal in every way except flowery language. It actually loses all reality and substance, turns into meaningless mush

The prophets used illustrations to represent the realities they were talking about all the time. Jesus used illustrations all the time. The apostles used a lot of illustrations and the Revelation is full of pictures used as illustrations representing the realities that are being spoken about.

You seem to have a problem with the prophets, with Jesus and the apostles and the way they always used illustrations. I.O.W, you seem to have a problem with scripture.​

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your claim is 100% "False" as you follow the standard reformed theology answer on the subject

I don't base my view on reformed theology, so please stop lying.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

It’s very difficult to know what exactly it’s going to be like and we can speculate but we do know heaven and earth will pass away but His words will not pass away. I take that to mean the restitution of all things.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

All I know is that we won't be disappointed. It will be better than we can imagine.

1 Corinthians 2:9 However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived”—the things God has prepared for those who love him...

 

[WPM]

I have no issues with what you’re saying except the phrase “This current earth will be regenerated when He comes”. If the elements (hydrogen, oxygen, …) melt then there is nothing physically left of this earth.

It’s possible that Jesus created an entirely new universe, outside of our current universe, that we are unable to detect. That could be considered a NHNE, that could be a physical universe, who knows, but it is possible.

You said in post #75 “He spoke the Word and it was so”. The restitution of all things would then revert back to His words. That is, the restitution of all things in this universe.

Why do you limit God? He can create with a word what He says. The science community have been trying to work creation out for a long time and cannot get their head round it.

 

[Marilyn C]

Well we can agree on some things. The city is inhabited now and has been for 2000 years. The people of God live there and are reigning with Him today.

`You have come to Mount Zion AND to the city of the living God.` (Heb. 12:22)

`I have set My King on Mount Zion.` (ps. 2: 6)

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

`You have come to Mount Zion AND to the city of the living God.` (Heb. 12:22)

This is a present spiritual reality for all Christians.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why do you limit God? He can create with a word what He says. The science have been trying to work creation out for a long time and cannot get their head round it.

Right. He will change ashes and piles of bones into glorious and immortal spiritual bodies when Jesus returns at the last trumpet, so I'm sure He can change melted things into something glorious as well.

 

[WPM]

`You have come to Mount Zion AND to the city of the living God.` (Heb. 12:22)

`I have set My King on Mount Zion.` (ps. 2: 6)

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)

God's people are located there now.

 

[Marilyn C]

This is a present spiritual reality for all Christians.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Yes, and that will be where the Lord`s own throne will be, and we will rule with Him there. (Ps. 2: 6 Rev. 3: 21)

The Old Testament Saints waiting in the General assembly, (spirits of just men made perfect. Heb. 12: 23) will go into the city which will come down out of heaven from God. (Rev. 21: 2)

 

[Marilyn C]

God's people are located there now.

Yes, and that will be where the Lord`s own throne will be, and we will rule with Him there. (Ps. 2: 6 Rev. 3: 21)

The Old Testament Saints waiting in the General assembly, (spirits of just men made perfect. Heb. 12: 23) will go into the city which will come down out of heaven from God. (Rev. 21: 2)

 

[Zao is life]

Right. He will change ashes and piles of bones into glorious and immortal spiritual bodies when Jesus returns at the last trumpet, so I'm sure He can change melted things into something glorious as well.

"Melted" things (Luo):

2 Peter 3:10b ".. shall luo (loose) with kausoo (fire, fervent heat), the ge (earth) also and the ergon that are therein shall be katakaio (wholly consumed).

Luo: To loose. Used in:

Luo: Matthew 5:19 (loose one of the commandments); 16:19 & 18:18 (loosed on earth, loosed in heaven); 21:2 (tied up ass and colt, loosed);

Luo: Mark 1:7 (John the Baptist saying he is not worthy to loose the shoes of Christ); 1:7 (tongue loosed); 11:2 & 4-5 (colt loosed that was bound).

Luo: Luke 13:15 (Loosing of an ox on the sabbath day & Jesus loosing of a woman who was bound with infirmity on the sabbath day).

Luo: Revelation 5:2 (seals loosed); 9:14 (angels loosed); 20:7 (Satan loosed from his prison).

Luo: Acts 2:24: Whom God hath raised up, having luo (loosed) the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Luo: 1 Corinthians 7:27: Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be luo (loosed). Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.

The meaning of the word luo doubles-up as "broken" or "destroyed":
​

Ephesians 2:14: Jesus luo (loosed, broke down) the wall of partitiion between Jew and Gentile - the word doubles up as "destroyed".

John 5:18: Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had luo (broken, loosed) the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 2:19: Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy (luo: loose) this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

2 Peter 3
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the ouranos (heavens) were of old, and the ge (earth) standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the kosmos (world) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the ouranos (heavens) and the ge (earth), which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly anthropos (men / humanity).

So most Christians read it like this:

7 But the ouranos (heavens) and the ge (earth), which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of the destruction of the ouranos (heavens) and the ge (earth).

Yet that's not what it says. It says the judgment and perdition of ungodly humanity.

NOR were the heavens and the earth destroyed in the days of Noah, but rather the world and all ungodly men in it:

2 Peter 3
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the ouranos (heavens) were of old, and the ge (earth) standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the kosmos (world) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Peter is simply saying that God used the same water to destroy the world by water.

The word "luo" in 2 Peter 3:10 & 12 does not mean the heavens and earth are to be "melted" or dissolved (though most Christians seem determined to believe this).

It's talking about the rudiments and principles of this world (stoicheion) being loosed, dissolved, broken up by fire - the fire of the judgment and perdition of ungodly anthropos:

7 But the ouranos (heavens) and the ge (earth), which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly anthropos (men / humanity).

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall parerchomai (suddenly seize upon them) with a great wirring whizzing noise, and the stoicheion (rudiments and principles of this world) shall luo (be loosed) with kausoo (fire, fervent heat),

the ge (earth) also and the ergon (works of men and of Satan and of darkness) that are therein shall be katakaio (wholly consumed).

It implies (as you have previously said) that the world will be wholly consumed by fire, just as the world was wholly consumed by water in the days of Noah. But

1. The heavens and the earth themselves were not destroyed by water in the days of Noah and the heavens and the earth themselves will not be destroyed by fire in the day of the judgment and perdition of ungodly humanity.
2. The word luo implies that the world will be loosed from being bound up by the stoicheion (rudiments and principles of this world). It does not imply that anything will be "melted": "Dissolved" is a much better word to use than "melted".​

 

[ewq1938]

The word "luo" in 2 Peter 3:10 & 12 does not mean the heavens and earth are to be "melted" or dissolved (though most Christians seem determined to believe this).
​

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

G3089
λύω
luō
Thayer Definition:
1) to loose any person (or thing) tied or fastened
1a) bandages of the feet, the shoes
1b) of a husband and wife joined together by the bond of matrimony
1c) of a single man, whether he has already had a wife or has not yet married
2) to loose one bound, i.e. to unbind, release from bonds, set free
2a) of one bound up (swathed in bandages)
2b) bound with chains (a prisoner), discharge from prison, let go
3) to loosen, undo, dissolve, anything bound, tied, or compacted together
3a) an assembly, i.e. to dismiss, break up
3b) laws, as having a binding force, are likened to bonds
3c) to annul, subvert
3d) to do away with, to deprive of authority, whether by precept or act
3e) to declare unlawful
3f) to loose what is compacted or built together, to break up, demolish, destroy
3g) to dissolve something coherent into parts, to destroy
3h) metaphorically, to overthrow, to do away with
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a root word

 

[Zao is life]

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

G3089
λύω
luō
Thayer Definition:
1) to loose any person (or thing) tied or fastened
1a) bandages of the feet, the shoes
1b) of a husband and wife joined together by the bond of matrimony
1c) of a single man, whether he has already had a wife or has not yet married
2) to loose one bound, i.e. to unbind, release from bonds, set free
2a) of one bound up (swathed in bandages)
2b) bound with chains (a prisoner), discharge from prison, let go
3) to loosen, undo, dissolve, anything bound, tied, or compacted together
3a) an assembly, i.e. to dismiss, break up
3b) laws, as having a binding force, are likened to bonds
3c) to annul, subvert
3d) to do away with, to deprive of authority, whether by precept or act
3e) to declare unlawful
3f) to loose what is compacted or built together, to break up, demolish, destroy
3g) to dissolve something coherent into parts, to destroy
3h) metaphorically, to overthrow, to do away with
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a root word

I quoted scriptures using the word, so unless you quote scriptures using the word (especially when using the word in reference to something being destroyed) I'm not sure why you posted.

Galatians 4:3:
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements [stoicheion] of the world:

Galatians 4:9:
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements [stoicheion], whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Colossians 2:8:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments [stoicheion] of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:20:
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments [stoicheion] of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Hebrews 5:12:
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles [stoicheion] of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

2 Peter 3:10b ".. shall luo (loose) with kausoo (fire, fervent heat), the ge (earth) also and the ergon (works of men) that are therein shall be katakaio (wholly consumed).

Luo: To loose. Used in:

Luo: Matthew 5:19 (loose one of the commandments); 16:19 & 18:18 (loosed on earth, loosed in heaven); 21:2 (tied up ass and colt, loosed);

Luo: Mark 1:7 (John the Baptist saying he is not worthy to loose the shoes of Christ); 1:7 (tongue loosed); 11:2 & 4-5 (colt loosed that was bound).

Luo: Luke 13:15 (Loosing of an ox on the sabbath day & Jesus loosing of a woman who was bound with infirmity on the sabbath day).

Luo: Revelation 5:2 (seals loosed); 9:14 (angels loosed); 20:7 (Satan loosed from his prison).

Luo: Acts 2:24: Whom God hath raised up, having luo (loosed) the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Luo: 1 Corinthians 7:27: Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be luo (loosed). Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.

The meaning of the word luo doubles-up as "broken" or "destroyed":
Ephesians 2:14: Jesus luo (loosed, broke down) the wall of partitiion between Jew and Gentile - the word doubles up as "destroyed".

John 5:18: Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had luo (broken, loosed) the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 2:19: Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy (luo: loose) this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

2 Peter 3:12:
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be loosed [luo], and the elements [stoicheion] shall melt with fervent heat?

So quote scriptures where it means it's referring to the chemical elements of the heavens and the earth and the destruction of the same.

Otherwise grow up with your increased font size. LOL.

 

[Truth7t7]

I quoted scriptures using the word, so unless you quote scriptures using the word (especially when using the word in reference to something being destroyed) I'm not sure why you posted.

Galatians 4:3:
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements [stoicheion] of the world:

Galatians 4:9:
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements [stoicheion], whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Colossians 2:8:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments [stoicheion] of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:20:
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments [stoicheion] of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Hebrews 5:12:
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles [stoicheion] of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Galatians 4:3:
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements [stoicheion] of the world:

Galatians 4:9:
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements [stoicheion], whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Colossians 2:8:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments [stoicheion] of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:20:
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments [stoicheion] of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Hebrews 5:12:
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles [stoicheion] of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

2 Peter 3:10b ".. shall luo (loose) with kausoo (fire, fervent heat), the ge (earth) also and the ergon that are therein shall be katakaio (wholly consumed).

Luo: To loose. Used in:

Luo: Matthew 5:19 (loose one of the commandments); 16:19 & 18:18 (loosed on earth, loosed in heaven); 21:2 (tied up ass and colt, loosed);

Luo: Mark 1:7 (John the Baptist saying he is not worthy to loose the shoes of Christ); 1:7 (tongue loosed); 11:2 & 4-5 (colt loosed that was bound).

Luo: Luke 13:15 (Loosing of an ox on the sabbath day & Jesus loosing of a woman who was bound with infirmity on the sabbath day).

Luo: Revelation 5:2 (seals loosed); 9:14 (angels loosed); 20:7 (Satan loosed from his prison).

Luo: Acts 2:24: Whom God hath raised up, having luo (loosed) the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Luo: 1 Corinthians 7:27: Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be luo (loosed). Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.

The meaning of the word luo doubles-up as "broken" or "destroyed":
Ephesians 2:14: Jesus luo (loosed, broke down) the wall of partitiion between Jew and Gentile - the word doubles up as "destroyed".

John 5:18: Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had luo (broken, loosed) the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 2:19: Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy (luo: loose) this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

2 Peter 3:12:
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be loosed [luo], and the elements [stoicheion] shall melt with fervent heat?

So quote scriptures where it means it's referring to the chemical elements of the heavens and the earth and the destruction of the same.

Otherwise grow up with your increased font size. LOL.

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Zao is life]

Don't respond

OK I won't. LOL.

If you don't have an answer and you believe he won't have an answer, then you advise him not to respond.

Don't worry I'm sure he won't respond.

I won't respond to his non-response.

But maybe you should respond to his non-response the way you did here

 

[complete]

Subject Heading:- 'The Jerusalem which is above is the heavenly city of promise which God has prepared for His saints.'

Hello there, @ScottDowney,

Looking through the thread it is apparent that there are many differing views regarding this subject: I too differ from you in this regard.

There are several spheres that will be occupied by the redeemed in that day, and the Heavenly city is just one of them.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Zao is life]

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

the first heaven and the first earth were passed away [parerchomai ]; and there was no more sea.

Quote as many verses in the New Testament as you can find where the word parerchomai refers to something that no longer exists.

(Please do interpret scripture with scripture instead of practicing eisegesis)

Notice that I've just challenged you to look for the word parerchomai in scripture and find another verse or verses where it implies that the thing it's talking about no longer exists because it was destroyed in God's judgment.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all (created) things consist." (Colossians 1:16-17).

All (created) things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.In him was life [zoe]; and the life [zoe] was the light of men." (John 1:3-4)

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all (created) things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful." (Revelation 21:5).

So let's interpret scripture with scripture:

Romans 8
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 That the creation itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

A newly created body rather than a resurrected body, redeemed from death for those who belong to Jesus, according to you;

and a newly created creation rather than the same creation being delivered from the bondage of decay when the sons of God are delivered from the same through the resurrection of the body, according to you.

In your misinterpretation of scripture, can you PLEASE give us other verses in the New Testament where the word parerchomai is referring to something that no longer exists due to having been destroyed by God's judgment - because there are LOTS of New Testament verses using the same word.

the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Habbukuk 3
3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.
4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power.

6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.

10 The mountains saw thee, and they trembled: the overflowing of the water passed by: the deep uttered his voice, and lifted up his hands on high.
11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.
12 Thou didst march through the land in indignation

The prophet is talking about what God did before his own days.

My only advice to you is, learn to understand the language of prophetic scripture so that you can be helped not to take every portion of prophetic scripture you read so literally.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest:

AHA! You mention the key but fail to notice it.

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But the heavens and the earth are kept in store for the destruction of the heavens and the earth (according to you).

for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

You still fail to notice.

Did you notice what you keep failing to notice?

I doubt you will notice.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

The heavens and earth were destroyed when Sodom was destroyed?

What are you saying?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,

Taking vengeance on whom? On them who do not know God, or on the heavens and the earth?

What are you saying?

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

But you are saying that the heavens and the earth shall be punished with destruction from the presence of the Lord.

So who are you saying is being spoken about above?

Your doctrine is confusing.

Anyway, like what has already been proved to you using Habakkuk (and a number of other portions of prophetic scripture besides), the same language used by the prophets to describe previous judgments of God UPON GODLESS HUMAN BEINGS is used to describe future judgments.

Habbukuk 3
3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.
4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power.

6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.

10 The mountains saw thee, and they trembled: the overflowing of the water passed by: the deep uttered his voice, and lifted up his hands on high.
11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.
12 Thou didst march through the land in indignation

The prophet is talking about what God did before his own days. It's not meant to all be taken up literally the way you do (so as to link it to your fantasy about the current creation) being completely destroyed (so as to be punished for the works of ungodly human beings).

 

[Scott Downey]

Subject Heading:- 'The Jerusalem which is above is the heavenly city of promise which God has prepared for His saints.'

Hello there, @ScottDowney,

Looking through the thread it is apparent that there are many differing views regarding this subject: I too differ from you in this regard.

There are several spheres that will be occupied by the redeemed in that day, and the Heavenly city is just one of them.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hebrews tells us the church is there.
Who else is the redeemed?

Hebrews 12 is for all who believe in Christ. The church lives in that city, it is part of God's plan, where are His many mansions, where Christ has gone ahead of us into heaven to prepare a place for us to be with Him. A master builder He is

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the [j]general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Entire chapter

The Race of Faith​

1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the [a]author and [b]finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The Discipline of God​

3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

“My son, do not despise the [c]chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”
7 If[d] you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no [e]chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Renew Your Spiritual Vitality​

12 Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed.

14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or [f]profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

The Glorious Company​

18 For you have not come [g]to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and [h]darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned [i]or shot with an arrow.” 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the [j]general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Hear the Heavenly Voice​

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I [k]shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we [l]may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

 

[Scott Downey]

It is also true that in the future, this city will descend down from heaven, onto the NEW earth.
But until Christ returns, it remains the place where we go at our deaths. And that is our home, our citizenship is in heaven where God is now.

John 14
“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many [a]mansions; if it were not so, [b]I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.