The Rapture and the Tribulation - Short

[The Light]

We will find out soon.

I already know it's in error, so I don't have to wait.

Looking at your quote........................... There is no scriptural reason to back up 3.5 years from Apophis. Wormwood is the 3rd trumpet. The fourth trumpet is the stinging locusts. That lasts 5 months. Point is there is no reason to backup 3.5 years from the third trumpet.


"Assuming Apophis is wormwood. Arrival April 13, 2029, back up 3.5 years/42 months and that date is October 13, 2025, the last say of sukkot, feast of tabernacles."

Secondly, the Feast of Tabernacles is when God will reside on the earth. That will not happen until the millennium. So the Feast of Tabernacles in 2025 is a non event in the scriptural timeline.

 

[Traveler]

I have found that if you bring together 12 well versed bible scholars and ask them about Revelation , no 2 will be in full agreement, yes they will agree on the main events because they are self evident but the differences come in the timing and overlap. I once asked a pastor about this and his reply was that he adhered to the pan trib solution. " How ever it pans out is how it is supposed to be "

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have found that if you bring together 12 well versed bible scholars and ask them about Revelation , no 2 will be in full agreement, yes they will agree on the main events because they are self evident but the differences come in the timing and overlap.

What are the main events that they would agree on? I'm not even sure that's the case.

I once asked a pastor about this and his reply was that he adhered to the pan trib solution. " How ever it pans out is how it is supposed to be "

No offense to your pastor, but I think that is lame. Especially for a pastor. I believe it is meant to be understood or else it wouldn't have been written. I'm okay with someone saying they just don't know what it all means right now, but no one should think that it's impossible to ever understand it. Maybe not every little detail of it. That's a bit much to expect. But, I think at least understanding a good portion of it and the main themes of it is possible for anyone if you ask God to help you (James 1:5-7).

 

[Douggg]

The great tribulation is when the dragon goes after the seed of the woman Israel which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The seed of the woman is the twelve tribes across the earth. These believers will be hunted down and killed.

The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is standing in a holy place (the temple mount). Matthew 24:15. The abomination of desolation will be "set up". Daniel 12:11. The abomination of desolation will be a statue image made of the beast-king. Revelation 13:14.

The day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act (Daniel 8:13) described in 2Thessalonians2:4.

Transgression of desolation act triggers the beginning of the day of the Lord.
Abomination of desolation statue image set up triggers the beginning of the great tribulation.

This chart I made shows the relationship between the ToD and the AoD.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture found in scripture, it's the invention of John N. Darby 1830's and was promoted by C.I Scofields 1909 reference Bible with Darby's teachings in the margins

The modern headquarters of this false teaching better known as dispensationalism is found at (Dallas Theological Seminary) in the US

(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) & (1 Corinthians 15:51-54) is nothing more than the Lord's second coming and the last day resurrection in final judgement (The End) in parallel teachings

And yours was invented by dead ancients.
You guys claim your doctrine is from man.
You point to men to authenticate your doctrine.
When they,and you have limited knowledge of eschatology.

Not to mention we now have accounts of the church fathers teaching a pretrib rapture.

So so wrong and reckless of postribbers and their dead man centering.

But the challenge remains.
Show me a postrib rapture verse.
Should be real easy.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I have blocked Spiritual Israel some time ago. So I don't know what he said. Sorry

Smart man.

 

[Truth7t7]

Not to mention we now have accounts of the church fathers teaching a pretrib rapture.

Post your claim with a link, waiting

 

[rebuilder 454]

I hope one day all will center on eschatology in the sense the bible frames it.
1) it is pointing to "the fulfillment", not centered on other things I see people trying to make it into.
2) the gathering of the bride. With the wedding at the Father's house
Most, if not all NT end times focus is right there.
3) the gathering of the wayward wife...the Covenant Jew.
4) the final eternal earthly habitation.

The bible "ends" similar to how it came into being from the start.

Post your claim with a link, waiting

https://truthandtidings.com/2020/07/the-rapture-a-pre-darby-rapture/

 

[rebuilder 454]

I hope one day all will center on eschatology in the sense the bible frames it.
1) it is pointing to "the fulfillment", not centered on other things I see people trying to make it into.
2) the gathering of the bride. With the wedding at the Father's house
Most, if not all NT end times focus is right there.
3) the gathering of the wayward wife...the Covenant Jew.
4) the final eternal earthly habitation.

The bible "ends" similar to how it came into being from the start.

https://truthandtidings.com/2020/07/the-rapture-a-pre-darby-rapture/

Here is a small part of the article

"Early Witnesses
After the time of the apostles, a number of writings indicate belief in the imminence of Christ’s return, which is consistent with pre-tribulationism. Clement of Rome (35-101), Ignatius of Antioch (died 110), The Didache (a late first-century anonymous Christian treatise), The Epistle of Pseudo-Barnabas (circa 70-130), and The Shepherd of Hermas (second century) all reference Christ’s imminent return.[2] Even though it appears that the apostolic fathers were largely post-tribulational (because they believed the persecution they were enduring was the tribulation itself), they held to the doctrine of imminency. J. Barton Payne (a post-tribulationist) concluded that “belief in the imminence of the return of Jesus was the uniform hope of the early church.”[3]

But it appears that Irenaeus of Lyon (120-202) was a pre-tribulationist. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John) and articulated his eschatological views in Against Heresies, Book 5. First, he referred to Enoch’s translation and Elijah’s being “caught up” as previews of the Rapture. “For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up.”[4"

 

[rebuilder 454]

Was the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Invented Only 200 Years Ago? – Q&A for March 4, 2021 - Enduring Word

Today’s lead question was, “Was the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Invented Only 200 Years Ago?” Then, questions from our live viewers.

enduringword.com

a short excerpt :
""And, to quickly make mention of, there are references in the ancient writers Shepherd of Hermas, Victorinus, and others that are quite consistent with the Pre-Tribulation catching up idea. We shouldn’t exaggerate and say they fully explained the idea, but they and others were consistent with it.

A paper I read last night mentioned references to the rapture, consistent with the Pre-Tribulational concept in The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (mid-second century), Irenaeus (late second century), and Pseudo-Ephraem (perhaps early fourth century).

I’ll put some of these quotes in the show notes, along with a link to an article by Thomas Ice titled “Why the Doctrine of the Pretribulational Rapture did not Begin with Margaret Macdonald.”""

 

[rebuilder 454]

Pretrib rapture documented and taught a few years after polycarbonate

 

[rebuilder 454]

I have a hard time understanding why postribbers are so easily misled.
That idea that Darby originated the pretrib rapture was debunked over 20 years ago by Bill Cloud.
New writings are being discovered all the time.
Pretrib rapture is as ancient as any doctrine.

But if postribbers think their doctrine hinges on man...
Well...no wonder you guys are mislead.
I will say you are guaranteed error.

" I believe in a postrib rapture because some men invented it over 1000 years ago."

What about the pretrib rapture verses?
"Oh no, the ancient dead teachers didn't mention those verses."

Not only did they teach it, but how embarrassing that an ENTIRE POSTRIB RAPTURE DOCTRINE is admittedly FOUNDED in man.
Huh????????

 

[Truth7t7]

The bible "ends" similar to how it came into being from the start.

https://truthandtidings.com/2020/07/the-rapture-a-pre-darby-rapture/

You provide a link with quotes of the early Church fathers, with Irenaeus being one, he clearly states the church goes through the tribulation and (They Overcome) being crowned in reward, he states (In The End) the church will suddenly be caught up

Not one word Irenaeus states even hints at Darby's pre-trib rapture

Quote Irenaeus:
“And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be’. For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

 

[The Light]

You provide a link with quotes of the early Church fathers, with Irenaeus being one, he clearly states the church goes through the tribulation and (They Overcome) being crowned in reward, he states (In The End) the church will suddenly be caught up

Not one word Irenaeus states even hints at Darby's pre-trib rapture

Quote Irenaeus:
“And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be’. For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

Looks like the Church will be caught up before the tribulation.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You provide a link with quotes of the early Church fathers, with Irenaeus being one, he clearly states the church goes through the tribulation and (They Overcome) being crowned in reward, he states (In The End) the church will suddenly be caught up

Not one word Irenaeus states even hints at Darby's pre-trib rapture

Quote Irenaeus:
“And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be’. For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

1) the bible says that every person on the face of the earth takes the mark
whose names are not written in the book of life
2) the bible says that power is given to the antichrist to overcome the saints
3) in the book of daniel it says that the antichrist kills the saints
4) in revelation it says the saints overcome the antichrist by the blood of the lamb, and the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto death
that is saying right there that they are all martyred.... every single one of them
5) the martyred saints before the throne in revelation as the innumerable number
came out of the great tribulation


at best the most that Irenaeus can help you would be a mid trib rapture because irenaeus
compare the saints going through the tribulation with the 3 hebrew children going through the fire furnace


rev 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

rev 12
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

IOW ...all are martyred that refuse to mark

rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

there it is all the saints that missed the rapture they all got killed
because they refused to mark

 

[rebuilder 454]

You provide a link with quotes of the early Church fathers, with Irenaeus being one, he clearly states the church goes through the tribulation and (They Overcome) being crowned in reward, he states (In The End) the church will suddenly be caught up

Not one word Irenaeus states even hints at Darby's pre-trib rapture

Quote Irenaeus:
“And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be’. For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

In a sermon entitled “On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World,” Syrian church father Pseudo-Ephraem (fourth to sixth century) wrote, “For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”[8] The gathering Pseudo-Ephraem mentions appears to refer to a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church.
In 1316, an anonymous treatise entitled The History of Brother Dolcino articulated some of the beliefs of the Apostolic Brethren.[9] Their leader, Brother Dolcino, believed he and his followers would be taken to heaven and protected from the actions of the Antichrist before later descending back to earth, thus holding to a belief in a pre-tribulation Rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You provide a link with quotes of the early Church fathers, with Irenaeus being one, he clearly states the church goes through the tribulation and (They Overcome) being crowned in reward, he states (In The End) the church will suddenly be caught up

Not one word Irenaeus states even hints at Darby's pre-trib rapture

Quote Irenaeus:
“And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be’. For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

The Shepherd of Hermas (AD 90 to 150), speaks of the pretribulational concept of escaping the tribulation.

"You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Therefore, go, tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and tell them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If you prepare yourselves, repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart is pure and spotless, and you spend the rest of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly."

 

[rebuilder 454]

"the pre tribulation rapture doctrine began with Darby"

Totally 100% debunked.

 

[Douggg]

Amen. God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided Certainly helps eliminate confusion, eh?:

God's Great GRACE Departure! (Many Scriptural Differences...)

Amen.


View attachment 62686

Great graphic.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Shepherd of Hermas (AD 90 to 150), speaks of the pretribulational concept of escaping the tribulation.

"You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Therefore, go, tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and tell them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If you prepare yourselves, repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart is pure and spotless, and you spend the rest of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly."

LOL! Was he talking there about escaping great tribulation by way of being taken off of the earth? No, he was talking about being protected from great tribulation while still on the earth. That does not support the idea of a pre-trib rapture whatsoever. You misinterpret the words of the ECFs just like you misinterpret scripture. None of the ECFs believed in a pre-trib rapture. No amount of twisting their words can prove otherwise.