When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

[TribulationSigns]

Ok. I’ll response later. I’m going out dirt biking in Bali.

 

[ewq1938]

Actually how long a generation is doesn't even matter. Christ said one generation would see all the events he talked about. That's young people, mid ages and all the way up to the very oldest seeing all the events happen and the last two of those events are the second coming and rapture/gathering of the saints.

A person only needs to be alive for a little over 42 months to see all those events, including some of the early events that signal the coming of the Great Tribulation.


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


G1074
genea
Thayer Definition:
1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from (a presumed derivative of) G1085
Citing in TDNT: 1:662, 114


I think in context Jesus is not talking about a generation of time but a generation of living people who will witness all the events he spoke about from people coming in the name of Christ and deceiving to the second coming. Those events happen in the same time frame that parts of Revelation covers which is the great tribulation and the second coming. It's not a long generation like 40-70 years but Revelation gives 42 months for the great trib then the second coming happens which isn't a long event either. That's basically 3 and a half years for one generation of people to witness all the end times events related to the great trib and second coming.

 

[ewq1938]

What? “This” generation definitely means something different than “that” generation, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

this:

G3778
houtos houtoi haute¯ hautai
hoo'-tos, hoo'-toy, how'-tay, how'-tahee
Including the nominative masculine plural (second form), nominative feminine signular (third form), and the nominate feminine plural, (fourth form). From the article G3588 and G846; the he (she or it), that is, this or that (often with the article repeated): - he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.

The verse equally can be translated as, "Verily I say unto you, THAT generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Many people use "this generation" as supposed proof Jesus meant the one he lived in and was speaking to but that is faulty since the word equally can mean "that" so we would have "that generation".

Since the generation he lived in and was speaking to did not see the sun and moon go dark, stars fall, the sign of the son of man nor saw the son of man coming, nor the angels gathering the elect which would have included the disciples means without a doubt Jesus was speaking of a future generation.

Additionally, you can talk about a future generation and refer to it as "this generation". Example, "The generation of 3000AD will populate other planets. This generation will be known as the Space Generation."

Equally a past generation can be referred to as "that generation".

Another example. A man points to a red Corvette in his garage, "This car is mine." or "That car is mine." Same thing.

 

[WPM]

Actually how long a generation is doesn't even matter. Christ said one generation would see all the events he talked about. That's young people, mid ages and all the way up to the very oldest seeing all the events happen and the last two of those events are the second coming and rapture/gathering of the saints.

A person only needs to be alive for a little over 42 months to see all those events, including some of the early events that signal the coming of the Great Tribulation.


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


G1074
genea
Thayer Definition:
1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from (a presumed derivative of) G1085
Citing in TDNT: 1:662, 114


I think in context Jesus is not talking about a generation of time but a generation of living people who will witness all the events he spoke about from people coming in the name of Christ and deceiving to the second coming. Those events happen in the same time frame that parts of Revelation covers which is the great tribulation and the second coming. It's not a long generation like 40-70 years but Revelation gives 42 months for the great trib then the second coming happens which isn't a long event either. That's basically 3 and a half years for one generation of people to witness all the end times events related to the great trib and second coming.

Your usual selective cherry-picking.

 

[Zao is life]

What? “This” generation definitely means something different than “that” generation, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

I won't talk to you again about this until you are prepared to acknowledge FACTS like the adults in the room are all doing. Only when / if I see you're beginning to actually seek the truth about this passage and have begun arguing your point using FACT regarding the meaning of Greek words (like the adults in the room have been doing) will I bother to respond to you again.

- because the inconvenient FACT that you will no doubt continue to DENY and to PRETEND doesn't exist (because one thing that is obvious to ALL who are not blinded by Preterist theology is that Preterists ALWAYS show themselves up whenever the truth based on FACTS is inconvenient to their assertions),

is the fact that the meaning of the Greek word talking about THAT generation being spoken about in Matthew 24:34, is a word that always means "the same as the subject being referred to": - and in Matthew 24:34 THE MAIN SUBJECT is THE SIGNS Jesus is giving, NOT the generation that will see the signs.

Matthew 24:13:
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same [G3778: houtos, hauté, touto: This, these, he, she, it] shall be saved."

Matthew 24:33-34:
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all THESE [G3778: houtos, hauté, touto: This, these, he, she, it] THINGS, know that He is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, THIS [G3778: houtos, hauté, touto: This, these, he, she, it] THE GENERATION (that shall see these things) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Matthew 24:13 could be translated as "those that endure to the end shall be saved" or "that one that endures to the end, he shall be saved". There are a lot of different ways and words that can be used to accurately translate G3778 houtos.

Matthew 24:34 for example could be translated as "the same generation to see these things" because the word simply refers to the subject - and in Matthew 24:34 and Luke 21:32 THE MAIN SUBJECT is THE SIGNS Jesus is giving, not the generation that will see the signs.

The same word is used in all these verses (and a whole lot more verses, besides these below):-

"These things" (Matthew 1:20)

"All this was done" (Matthew 1:22).

"This was he that was spoken of by the prophet" (Matthew 3:3).

"These stones" (Matthew 3:9)

"One of these" (Matthew 6:29): "And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these".

Like I said, I won't talk to you again about this until you are prepared to acknowledge FACTS like the adults in the room are all doing. Because it's clear to me and many others that Preterists and Partial Preterists do not seek truth but their own truth, so it's pointless me continuing to cast pearls with regard to this particular subject and your Preterist distortion of the facts.​

 

[Zao is life]

It could only be the nation of the Isrealites, those generated/descended from a common anscestor.

Matthew 24:22 KJV
22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Contextually this fits as Jesus had moments before prophesied that the "chosen" would not be allowed to be exterminated. In referring to "the chosen" and "the nations", this is Israel, and the gentiles.

So Jesus here prophesies twice that Israel will not be destroyed before Jesus comes, and that He will rescue them before they are all dead.

Much love!

I deleted my post where I responded to the above because I realized afterward that I misunderstood what you were saying.

I disagree with the reasoning behind your giving an identity to "the same" [houtos] generation that will see the end times, and I disagree with even taking the liberty of adding an identity to the text regarding the generation Jesus was speaking about.

For example, are these people spoken of below, all Jews?:

Revelation 6
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?​

 

[claninja]

No, I'm talking about verse 29 because I was originally asking covenantee to explain his view of it because of how he does not believe that Jesus returns "immediately after the tribulation of those days". So, he apparently thinks that the rest of verse 29 figuratively describes a period of time after 70 AD and before the future return of Christ. You don't share his understanding of verses 30 and 31, so I'm sure you do not share his understanding of verse 29, either. I would guess that you would agree with me in the sense that verses 30 and 31 immediately or at least very shortly follow "the tribulation of those days" even though we interpret those verses differently.

No, I'm talking about verse 29 because I was originally asking covenantee to explain his view of it because of how he does not believe that Jesus returns "immediately after the tribulation of those days". So, he apparently thinks that the rest of verse 29 figuratively describes a period of time after 70 AD and before the future return of Christ. You don't share his understanding of verses 30 and 31, so I'm sure you do not share his understanding of verse 29, either. I would guess that you would agree with me in the sense that verses 30 and 31 immediately or at least very shortly follow "the tribulation of those days" even though we interpret those verses differently.

I thought covenantee already explained that vs 29 is idiomatic expression for the fall of jerusalem in the same way as similar expressions are used in the OT for the fall of nations? vs 30 starts with "and then" which could mean distant future. That's where the dividing line seems to be drawn.

Each person has to decide how they understand what He was talking about. That depends on what things are "all these things" that Jesus said would indicate that His coming was near. Was it all of the things that He had previously talked about from the beginning of the discourse? No, that can't be. He already indicated that the wars and rumors of wars, famines, pestilences and earthquakes would not be an indication that "the end" was near, so He wasn't talking about literally all the things that He had previously mentioned. So, what things was He talking about then? The things He talked about after verse 8 in verses 9-13. Things like a significant increase in persecution, apostasy, deception and wickedness.

Hold on here. You can't include the wars, famines and earthquakes and such as being among the things that would indicate that His coming was near because He specifically indicate that those things would NOT indicate that His coming was near just yet. Those things were just "the beginning of sorrows". So, you are looking at this from the wrong perspective of what Jesus was talking about.

The events that would allow the apostles to know "he is near/right at the door" would be the events of vs 9-23 as listed in the olivet discourse. The events of vs 4-8, simply signaled the beginning of birth pains, and that the end was still to come.

Also, you are misinterpreting what the verses you referenced mean. Those verses refer to the certainty of His coming and that it is always getting nearer. In no way, shape or form did they prophesy that His return was literally near. There is no way in the world that Peter was saying in 1 Peter 4:7 that what he later described in 2 Peter 3:10-13 was going to literally happen soon.

The verses literally say "the coming has drawn near". The coming is "in a little while without delay". the end of all things " has drawn near". It is "the last hour". But I understand, you need to negotiate with these texts because they don't fit your framework.

If the apostles generation lived through the beginnings of birth pains (vs 4-8) and then through persecution, martyrdom, many going out from the church, the rise of false prophets and christs, the gospel going to the whole oikoumene, and the destruction of Jerusalem (9-23), they could absolutely say, with certainty, that the coming was literally near based on vs 32-33.

 

[marks]

For example, are these people spoken of below, all Jews?:

Revelation 6
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?​

Certainly not, as the text itself says.

The only "this generation" that would be present with Jesus as well as present at the end of the age, in the context spoke, that is Israel.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I won't talk to you again about this until you are prepared to acknowledge FACTS like the adults in the room are all doing.

Ick.

 

[claninja]

I won't talk to you again about this until you are prepared to acknowledge FACTS like the adults in the room are all doing. Only when / if I see you're beginning to actually seek the truth about this passage and have begun arguing your point using FACT regarding the meaning of Greek words (like the adults in the room have been doing) will I bother to respond to you again.

- because the inconvenient FACT that you will no doubt continue to DENY and to PRETEND doesn't exist (because one thing that is obvious to ALL who are not blinded by Preterist theology is that Preterists ALWAYS show themselves up whenever the truth based on FACTS is inconvenient to their assertions),

is the fact that the meaning of the Greek word talking about THAT generation being spoken about in Matthew 24:34, is a word that always means "the same as the subject being referred to": - and in Matthew 24:34 THE MAIN SUBJECT is THE SIGNS Jesus is giving, NOT the generation that will see the signs.

Matthew 24:13:
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same [G3778: houtos, hauté, touto: This, these, he, she, it] shall be saved."

Matthew 24:33-34:
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all THESE [G3778: houtos, hauté, touto: This, these, he, she, it] THINGS, know that He is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, THIS [G3778: houtos, hauté, touto: This, these, he, she, it] THE GENERATION (that shall see these things) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Matthew 24:13 could be translated as "those that endure to the end shall be saved" or "that one that endures to the end, he shall be saved". There are a lot of different ways and words that can be used to accurately translate G3778 houtos.

Matthew 24:34 for example could be translated as "the same generation to see these things" because the word simply refers to the subject - and in Matthew 24:34 and Luke 21:32 THE MAIN SUBJECT is THE SIGNS Jesus is giving, not the generation that will see the signs.

The same word is used in all these verses (and a whole lot more verses, besides these below):-

"These things" (Matthew 1:20)

"All this was done" (Matthew 1:22).

"This was he that was spoken of by the prophet" (Matthew 3:3).

"These stones" (Matthew 3:9)

"One of these" (Matthew 6:29): "And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these".

Like I said, I won't talk to you again about this until you are prepared to acknowledge FACTS like the adults in the room are all doing. Because it's clear to me and many others that Preterists and Partial Preterists do not seek truth but their own truth, so it's pointless me continuing to cast pearls with regard to this particular subject and your Preterist distortion of the facts.​

αὕτη (houte; this) is a demonstrative pronoun. When its by itself, its just a standard pronoun whose antecedent is the main noun. When its next to a noun, its an adjective describing that noun. Demonstrative pronouns, particularly ὗτος (houtos), describe things near. In the case of matthew 24:34, "this" would be describing a generation near in space, time, or thought. Grammatically and contextually, "this generation will not pass away until all these things occur" of course refers to the generation that sees/lives through events by the very words "will not pass away until...". Next, "these things" is a standalone demonstrative, and therefore, acts as pronoun. "these things" is modified by the adjective "all". "these things" has a gender of neuter and is plural which rules out generation (female, singular) as its antecedent, and instead makes the antecedents the list of events. The antecedents refer to "all" listed things prior to as found in vs 4-33. There is no distinction grammatically and contextually, that would exclude any of the events listed in 4-33. Exclusion of any events from "all these things" would a negotiation of the text based on one's framework.

• "Demonstratives are pointers. They point to things near (“this/these”) or things far (“that/those”). “These” and “those” are the plural forms." (https://biblicalelearning.org/wp-co...MNTG_Textbook_Ch11_Demonstrative_Pronouns.pdf)
• " Joined to nouns it is used like an adjective; b. so that the noun stands between the article and the demonstrative (cf. Winer's Grammar, 548 (510)); as, οἱ λίθοι οὗτοι, the stones which ye see lying near, Matthew 3:9; Matthew 4:3; add, Matthew 5:19; Matthew 7:24 (L Tr WH brackets τούτους), (Tr marginal reading WH marginal reading αὐτῆς); Matthew 10:23, etc.; Mark 12:16; Mark 13:30" (Strong's Greek: 3778. οὗτος, (houtos, hauté, touto) -- This, these, he, she, it)

 

[Zao is life]

αὕτη (houte; this) is a demonstrative pronoun. When its by itself, its just a standard pronoun whose antecedent is the main noun. When its next to a noun, its an adjective describing that noun. Demonstrative pronouns, particularly ὗτος (houtos), describe things near. In the case of matthew 24:34, "this" would be describing a generation near in space, time, or thought. Grammatically and contextually, "this generation will not pass away until all these things occur" of course refers to the generation that sees/lives through events by the very words "will not pass away until...". Next, "these things" is a standalone demonstrative, and therefore, acts as pronoun. "these things" is modified by the adjective "all". "these things" has a gender of neuter and is plural which rules out generation (female, singular) as its antecedent, and instead makes the antecedents the list of events. The antecedents refer to "all" listed things prior to as found in vs 4-33. There is no distinction grammatically and contextually, that would exclude any of the events listed in 4-33. Exclusion of any events from "all these things" would a negotiation of the text based on one's framework.

• "Demonstratives are pointers. They point to things near (“this/these”) or things far (“that/those”). “These” and “those” are the plural forms." (https://biblicalelearning.org/wp-co...MNTG_Textbook_Ch11_Demonstrative_Pronouns.pdf)
• " Joined to nouns it is used like an adjective; b. so that the noun stands between the article and the demonstrative (cf. Winer's Grammar, 548 (510)); as, οἱ λίθοι οὗτοι, the stones which ye see lying near, Matthew 3:9; Matthew 4:3; add, Matthew 5:19; Matthew 7:24 (L Tr WH brackets τούτους), (Tr marginal reading WH marginal reading αὐτῆς); Matthew 10:23, etc.; Mark 12:16; Mark 13:30" (Strong's Greek: 3778. οὗτος, (houtos, hauté, touto) -- This, these, he, she, it)

My previous point proved, once again by a Preterist. Nothing new under the sun.

Your Greek "expert" has other experts disagreeing with his convoluted and confused definition of houtos.

Most saints only need to read the context of the passage. The same [houtos] generation that will see the signs will not pass until the things Jesus mentioned have passed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I thought covenantee already explained that vs 29 is idiomatic expression for the fall of jerusalem in the same way as similar expressions are used in the OT for the fall of nations? vs 30 starts with "and then" which could mean distant future. That's where the dividing line seems to be drawn.

I guess he did mention that, but I don't really understand that, so I'd like a more detailed explanation. It's a bit hard for me to believe that Jesus could have jumped ahead at least 2,000 years from verse 29 to 30. Of course, at the time, even Jesus didn't know the day or hour of His coming since only the Father knew (Matt 24:36), so, from that perspective, I suppose it could be possible.

The events that would allow the apostles to know "he is near/right at the door" would be the events of vs 9-23 as listed in the olivet discourse. The events of vs 4-8, simply signaled the beginning of birth pains, and that the end was still to come.

I can't agree with this since I strongly believe that verses 15-22 relate to what happened in 70 AD and He did not return in 70 AD and the end of this temporal age did not come in 70 AD.

The verses literally say "the coming has drawn near". The coming is "in a little while without delay". the end of all things " has drawn near". It is "the last hour". But I understand, you need to negotiate with these texts because they don't fit your framework.

You make the verses fit your framework as well, so quit acting as if I'm the only one doing that. We ALL do that. And, frankly, we all SHOULD do that because we should not interpret any verse or passage that contradicts how we interpret any other verse or passage. We need to find a way to interpret ALL scripture in a framework that does not include any contradictions.

If the apostles generation lived through the beginnings of birth pains (vs 4-8) and then through persecution, martyrdom, many going out from the church, the rise of false prophets and christs, the gospel going to the whole oikoumene, and the destruction of Jerusalem (9-23), they could absolutely say, with certainty, that the coming was literally near based on vs 32-33.

You can't possibly convince me that He came in 70 AD or that the end of the age occurred in 70 AD. That's a joke. And thinking that He spoke of GLOBAL events as signs of the coming of a LOCAL event is also a joke.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My previous point proved, once again by a Preterist. Nothing new under the sun.

Your Greek "expert" has other experts disagreeing with his convoluted and confused definition of houtos.

Most saints only need to read the context of the passage. The same [houtos] generation that will see the signs will not pass until the things Jesus mentioned have passed.

I agree. The more I think about this, the more sense it makes to me that Jesus was saying, in effect, that "the same generation that I just talked about, which would see "all these things" that would indicate that My return is near, will not pass until all these things are fulfilled".

 

[Zao is life]

I agree. The more I think about this, the more sense it makes to me that Jesus was saying, in effect, that "the same generation that I just talked about, which would see "all these things" that would indicate that My return is near, will not pass until all these things are fulfilled".

In Matthew 24 even the verse before and the two verses after tell us which generation He is referring to as [houtos] generation:

Matthew 24
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

@Spiritual Israelite Once someone decides to rip the same [houtos] generation out of its obviously end-of-the-age context, all sorts of scriptural circus acts start taking place. Our brother @marks here has "this generation not passing away till all these things are fulfilled" talking about "the nation" of "the chosen" (Israel) "continuing from the 1st century till the time of the end" @Spiritual Israelite (I edited it again).

That's what happens when people do not leave things in their context and do not let the New Testament interpret itself in terms of the meaning of the words "this [houtos] generation".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

αὕτη (houte; this) is a demonstrative pronoun. When its by itself, its just a standard pronoun whose antecedent is the main noun. When its next to a noun, its an adjective describing that noun. Demonstrative pronouns, particularly ὗτος (houtos), describe things near. In the case of matthew 24:34, "this" would be describing a generation near in space, time, or thought. Grammatically and contextually, "this generation will not pass away until all these things occur" of course refers to the generation that sees/lives through events by the very words "will not pass away until...". Next, "these things" is a standalone demonstrative, and therefore, acts as pronoun. "these things" is modified by the adjective "all". "these things" has a gender of neuter and is plural which rules out generation (female, singular) as its antecedent, and instead makes the antecedents the list of events. The antecedents refer to "all" listed things prior to as found in vs 4-33. There is no distinction grammatically and contextually, that would exclude any of the events listed in 4-33. Exclusion of any events from "all these things" would a negotiation of the text based on one's framework.

He can't have been including the verses about wars, rumors of wars, famines, pestilences and earthquakes among "all these things" that would indicate His return was near because He specifically indicated that those things occurring would NOT mean the end was near and were only "the beginning of sorrows" instead. Without Jesus clarifying that, it would seem like the end was near with those kinds of things occurring, but Jesus made sure to let them know that would NOT be the case.

So, instead of physical disasters being signs that His coming and the end of the age were near, it would be increased persecution, deception, apostasy and wickedness which would indicate that His coming was near, and that lines up with what Paul talked about in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.

Notice in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 that Paul talks about signs that would indicate that His coming and our being gathered to Him was near, and he said NOTHING about things like wars, famines, pestilences and earthquakes as being signs that His coming was near.

And, in my view, Jesus couldn't have been including Matthew 24 verses 15-22 as things that would indicate that His coming was near, either, because His coming is a global event while verse 15-22 only describe a local event. So, I believe the things that would indicate that His coming was near are the things that are actually associated as being near "the end", which are the increased persecution, apostasy, deception and wickedness that He talked about.

Unless you understand that Jesus was asked two questions about two different events, I don't think it's possible to make sense of what He said. When you try to make the whole Olivet Discourse about things related to what occurred in 70 AD, it causes you to contradict other scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In Matthew 24 even the verse before and the two verses after tell us which generation He is referring to as [houtos] generation:

Matthew 24
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

I fully agree. That's why I always saw those passages as being fulfilled at Christ's second coming at the end of the age, but I thought "this" (houtos) "generation" (genea) referred to "this race" (the Jewish race or the human race that existed at the time and would still exist at His second coming) rather than "the same" (houtos) generation (time period) that would see "all these things", which would indicate "when" His return was near.

 

[Zao is life]

I fully agree. That's why I always saw those passages as being fulfilled at Christ's second coming at the end of the age, but I thought "this" (houtos) "generation" (genea) referred to "this race" (the Jewish race or the human race that existed at the time and would still exist at His second coming) rather than "the same" (houtos) generation (time period) that would see "all these things", which would indicate "when" His return was near.

LOL and I just included that interpretation you used to hold (and that brother @marks still holds) in my edit to my post in what I said about "all sorts of scriptural circus acts" taking place when people don't leave things in their (either historical or future) context (depending on whether the context is historical or future - there's a lot of scriptural circus acts going on with historical prophecy already fulfilled also on the part of some posters)

 

[Zao is life]

You can't possibly convince me that He came in 70 AD or that the end of the age occurred in 70 AD. That's a joke. And thinking that He spoke of GLOBAL events as signs of the coming of a LOCAL event is also a joke.

Maybe not. Maybe that local event is the location of the final global event, or the final global event which is the catalyst of it.

"Maybe" is pure speculation - but at least it does not turn normal English grammar into an upside-down Grand Canyon, where the word "therefore" is referring to what had not yet been said about something that was to take place 2,000 years before what had just been said about the end of the age.

Your interpretation has Jesus speaking about one tribulation to take place in a future millennium, continuing His discourse with "therefore", but then switching to another tribulation to take place in the same century He was speaking, then reverting to the tribulation in the future millennium that he began talking about - all the while joining the whole passage together using the conjunctive words "and" "for", "therefore", "but" etc etc.

So either we can do what I do and say, "I don't know why Jesus told specifically those in Judea to flee when they see the AoD in the holy place" (and admit I don't know why), or we can create our own way around it by doing what you do with verses 15-22.

But of course that's only my opinion. At least (and I'm really glad) you do not do what Preterists and Part-Prets do with the passage.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL and I just included that interpretation you used to hold (and that brother @marks still holds) in my edit to my post in what I said about "all sorts of scriptural circus acts" taking place when people don't leave things in their (either historical or future) context (depending on whether the context is historical or future - there's a lot of scriptural circus acts going on with historical prophecy already fulfilled also on the part of some posters)

Yeah. I think the main thing is that we understand that it's talking about "all these things" that occur just before the return of Christ which I already believed. But, I have a serious problem with the way preterists interpret the passage, obviously, because they try to claim that Jesus returned and that the end of the age came in 70 AD, which is not true.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Maybe not. Maybe that local event is the location of the final global event, or the final global even which is the catalyst of it.

A local location for a final global event? I'm sorry, but that doesn't register with me.

"Maybe" is pure speculation - but at least it does not turn normal English grammar into an upside-down Grand Canyon, where the word "therefore" is referring to what had not yet been said about something that was to take place 2,000 years before what had just been said about the end of the age.

Can you try to word that in a way that is more straightforward and specific? I'm not sure what you were intending to say here.

Your interpretation has Jesus speaking about one tribulation to take place in a future millennium,

What does this mean? I'm an Amill, so I don't understand why you would try to associate "a future millennium" with my view.

continuing His discourse with "therefore", but then switching to another tribulation to take place in the same century He was speaking, then reverting to the tribulation in the future millennium that he began talking about - all the while joining the whole passage together using the conjunctive words "and" "for", "therefore", "but" etc etc.

I don't believe in a "future millennium", so putting it this way does not accurately reflect what I believe. I know you're saying that you can't understand how Jesus could have gone back and forth in time in relation to different events. But, as I've said, I can't understand how you can claim that He didn't answer the question about when the temple buildings would be destroyed. We've been over this already multiple times and it's clear that neither of us are going to budge on this. So, we need to just agree to disagree.

So either we can do what I do and say, "I don't know why Jesus told specifically those in Judea to flee when they see the AoD in the holy place" (and admit I don't know why), or we can create our own way around it by doing what you do with verses 15-22.

If I'm supposedly creating my way around it, then so are you. But, I don't think we need to talk about each other's views rudely like that. What I do is acknowledge that Jesus answered the question about when the temple buildings would be destroyed and then determine where exactly He answered that question.

But of course that's only my opinion. At least (and I'm really glad) you do not do what Preterists and Part-Prets do with the passage.

And, of course, it's only my opinion that it's not reasonable to believe that Jesus didn't answer the question about when the temple buildings would be destroyed. But, I, am glad that you at least do not agree with the dispensationalist view that Matthew 24:15 is talking about some future physical temple.