Do you believe the lie?

[Zao is life]

Edited: Immortality for CREATED human beings does not mean we cannot be destroyed - soul and body - by the God who created us. Only God has life that is indestructible in Himself and only the Son of God possesses in Himself His own immortality, according to scripture.

The churches often misconstrue what it means to be immortal. To be immortal simply means your body is alive forever - UNLESS you stop abiding in the Vine of life - the source of life of all creation, and sin, and the God who CREATED you, destroys you - soul and body - by fire.

Immortality - which is associated with being alive in a human body that does not die - is dependent upon having eternal life,

and it's extremely important to carefully consider this, because firstly, life exists IN God alone, and only because God exists. Without the existence of God there is no life. Paul said, "In Him (God) we live | are alive [zao], and move, and have our being; For we are also his offspring." (Acts 17:28).

Life is in God alone - and in the Logos:

"The Logos of God was in the beginning with God. In Him was life [zōḗ], and the life [zōḗ] was the light of men." (John 1:2 & 4).

"And the Logos became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we (John the apostle and his companions) beheld his glory (the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.)" (John 1:14).

Secondly, among human beings, only the Son of God has life in Himself:

"For as the Father hath life [zōḗ] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zōḗ] in himself." (John 5:26).

Eternal life is in Christ alone.

The eternal life in Christ that God has given to CREATED human beings who do not have eternal life in ourselves, is in Christ alone, and He alone possesses eternal life in Himself:

"God has given to us eternal life [zōḗ], and this life [zōḗ] is in His Son: He that has the Son has (eternal) life; and he that has not the Son of God has not (eternal) life [zōḗ]." (1 John 5:11-12).

No CREATED human being has eternal life in himself. The eternal life of any created human being who has been given eternal life is in Christ: Jesus told those who believed in Him:
​

"I am in my Father, and ye (will be) in me, and I in you."
(John 14:19b-20b)​

In Colossians 1:27 Paul talks about "the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints, which is Christ IN you, the hope of glory."

So if anyone - any CREATED human being - has been given eternal life by God, your eternal life is not in yourself, but IN CHRIST, who alone has life IN HIMSELF. Christ in you = eternal life in you.

Jesus said, "The kingdom of God does not come with external evidence that can be observed. Nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'It's over there!' For take heed, be discerning, and perceive this: The kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:21).

Jesus also told us that unless we are born of the Spirit of God we cannot see or experience the Kingdom of God.

Paul said, "When Christ, who is our life [zōḗ], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:4).

IMPORTANT: This explains why, even though (BEFORE he sinned, and BEFORE death came to mankind), Adam was alive, had eternal life, and was able to eat of the tree of life freely (he was immortal), yet he died the moment he sinned.

Satan had said to him, "You will not surely die".

Thirdly, just like Adam (BEFORE he sinned and BEFORE death came to mankind) - though we be immortal following the resurrection of our bodies, yet because we will never possess eternal life in ourselves (only God does), CREATED human beings can never possess our immortality in ourselves:

Immortality: To live | be alive [zao] forever (never dying).

"He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen." (1 Timothy 6:15-16).

"For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" (John 5:26).

So part of the New Covenant promise is that CREATED human beings will once again have immortal bodies when our dead bodies have been resurrected from the dead, but since Adam sinned and died - and forever - the death of CREATED human beings is the evidence of the fact that only Christ possesses (His own) immortality because only Christ has eternal life in Himself.

No created human being possesses eternal life in itself. Only Christ possesses eternal life in Himself.

No created human being who does not possess (eternal) life [zoe] in itself can of itself live | be alive [zao] forever, without dying (possess its own immortality).

Satan told mankind: "You will not surely die".

"For this reason Christ died [apothnesko] and rose again from the dead [anistemi], and lived again [anazao: lived again in a body that is not dead], so that he may be the Lord of both the dead [nekros] and living [zao: those who are alive in a body that is not dead]." (Romans 14:9).

Jesus said, "Do not fear, I am the First and the Last, and the Living One, and I became dead, and behold, I am alive for ever and ever, Amen. And I have the keys of hades and of death." (Revelation 1:17-18)

"God has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us IN Christ Jesus before the world began, but is now made visible by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ,
who has broken the power of death, and has brought life (zoe) and immortality to light through the gospel." (2 Timothy 1:9-10).

Jesus the Messiah is the Vine of (eternal) life [ZOE]. Eternal life is in Christ, who alone has life [zoe] in Himself. Only God has life [zoe] in Himself (John 1:2 & 4; John 5:26; 1 John 5:11-12); and He said:

--- I am the vine, ye are the branches. Abide in me, and I in you, because if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned, and as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. --- (John 15:4-6, verses rearranged).

There is no validity of the argument regarding CREATED human beings who are alive in human bodies that do not die, not being capable of being destroyed both soul and body in the fire by the CREATOR who created us. I.O.W, there is no such thing as OSAS either now, or when we have become immortal.​

 

[marks]

Eternal life is IN CHRIST ALONE. It can be lost if the CREATED human being believes he will not surely die if he deliberately and knowingly and willfully disobeys the commandment of God.

You are talking about someone who is regenerated? How exactly does someone become "unborn"? I don't think you can do that.

Oh, and don't believe THAT lie, that you don't sin anymore. Or that you cannot help it, and therefore aren't responsible. That's a lie! Thankfully, Jesus dealt with the sin issue once for all.

Whatever you might think of all these various passages you've presented, IF you understand them correctly, they must must must agree with the other relevant passages, such as,

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

This clearly shows that the one who is risen with Christ now, will be with Jesus when He appears.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

This clearly shows that all who are the children of God now will become like Jesus when He appears.

If there were any who did not, these passages would not be true. The are true.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

You are talking about someone who is regenerated?

Was Adam regenerated BEFORE he sinned and died, believing that he would not surely die?

It was no necessary for mankind (Adam) to be regenerated BEFORE he sinned and began to die, believing that he would not surely die - he had never become degenerate (had never died and would never HAVE died BEFORE he sinned). He was immortal. But he lost that immortality, believing that he would not die, so he knowingly and deliberately and willfully sinned.

How exactly does someone become "unborn"? I don't think you can do that.

How does one become born of the Spirit except by the Spirit of LIFE (Christ) coming to live in you?

How is it possible that He left Adam (mankind) AFTER breathing His life (Spirit) into Adam, if Adam could not "become unborn"?

Oh, and don't believe THAT lie, that you don't sin anymore.

I'm talking about a deliberate, conscious and willful sin committed as a direct result of believing a lying promise made by the devil himself based on the lie that "you will NOT surely die". That's what Adam did. That's what the resurrected, immortal Gog-Magog nations will do at the close of the thousand years. They will not be "mortals". There will be no mortals in the Kingdom of Christ after the return of Christ.

Besides that and before that, all who receive the mark of the beast are destined for the lake of fire.

There is no such thing as OSAS in scripture.

Or that you cannot help it, and therefore aren't responsible. That's a lie! Thankfully, Jesus dealt with the sin issue once for all.

Yes. There where will be no second sacrifice made for sin and no second resurrection from the second death.

Whatever you might think of all these various passages you've presented, IF you understand them correctly, they must must must agree with the other relevant passages, such as,

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

As per 3 & 4 above, do you have life IN yourself? Did Adam have life IN himself? Does any created human being have life IN themselves?

Who is the source of our life according to the above?

What if someone deliberately and consciously CHOOSES not to remain in that Vine of life?

What happened to Adam when he chose not to remain in the Vine of life?

This clearly shows that the one who is risen with Christ now, will be with Jesus when He appears.

Yes, it does. It has nothing to do with REMAINING IN THE VINE.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

This clearly shows that all who are the children of God now will become like Jesus when He appears.

If there were any who did not, these passages would not be true. The are true.

They are true. But tell us why, in your opinion, Jesus said that whoever does not abide in Him will be cast out and will wither and die and be burned?

Is there NO responsibility on our part? Can someone just do as he pleases "because he is saved"? What about a deliberate, conscious and willful choice to engage in something which you know perfectly well Satan has inspired you to do?

Just tell us why, in your opinion, Jesus said that whoever does not abide in Him will be cast out and will wither and die and be burned?

 

[marks]

Just tell us why, in your opinion, Jesus said that whoever does not abide in Him will be cast out and will wither and die and be burned?

You've already answered that question. Our life is in Christ alone. If you are not living in Him, you will not live.

Here's the thing.

I don't live in that house. I don't live in that house either. I live in this house. Because I don't live in that house, it doesn't mean I once did, and now don't.

But when you read "if you don't remain in Christ," you reinterpret it to mean "If you don't remain in Christ, having once been there".

There are three branches, those in Christ who do not produce fruit, those who are in Christ and who do produce fruit, and those who are not in Christ.

You need to stick with EXACTLY what is written.

Much love!

 

[marks]

They are true. But tell us why, in your opinion, Jesus said that whoever does not abide in Him will be cast out and will wither and die and be burned?

If these are true, then you need to reconcile them to your view. It will require changing your view. Understanding this releases us to a greater live in Christ.

Much love!

 

[marks]

What if someone deliberately and consciously CHOOSES not to remain in that Vine of life?

Can you unbirth yourself?? I don't think so.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

You've already answered that question. Our life is in Christ alone. If you are not living in Him, you will not live.

Here's the thing.

I don't live in that house. I don't live in that house either. I live in this house. Because I don't live in that house, it doesn't mean I once did, and now don't.

But when you read "if you don't remain in Christ," you reinterpret it to mean "If you don't remain in Christ, having once been there".

There are three branches, those in Christ who do not produce fruit, those who are in Christ and who do produce fruit, and those who are not in Christ.

You need to stick with EXACTLY what is written.

Much love!

I don't see you sticking with EXACTLY what is written in your interpretations, so I'll leave you to your chosen interpretation. I'll stick to what the scriptures actually mean and are clearly saying.

Only one house has living water. If you do not abide in the house that has the living water (the source of your life), you will wither and die.

I won't add to what Jesus said and clearly meant, or take away from it.

 

[marks]

I don't see you sticking with EXACTLY what is written in your interpretations,

Look again.

Much love!

 

[marks]

If you do not abide in the house that has the living water

It's like I said. You've added to the text, that the one who does not remain in Christ once had been in Christ, and no longer is. But the passage doesn't say that. It's commonly interpretted that way, but it's just not so.

I challenge you as strongly as I can to examine the text and see that this is so.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

Jesus is the house (Temple) of God. Only one house has living water.
​

Jesus is not saying HE will evict anyone when He tells us to abide in the Vine of Life, and that the created human being who does not abide in that house will wither and die.

What Jesus said implies that NOT abiding in the Vine involves a conscious, deliberate choice on the part of someone who has been given eternal life in Christ.

IMO we'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would do that unless he believes the lie: "You will not surely die" (Genesis 3:4).​

 

[Zao is life]

It's like I said. You've added to the text, that the one who does not remain in Christ once had been in Christ, and no longer is. But the passage doesn't say that. It's commonly interpretted that way, but it's just not so.

I challenge you as strongly as I can to examine the text and see that this is so.

Much love!

Post #10

Jesus own words (I have not added to them, or taken away from them). But you have taken away from Jesus' own words in the highlighted part:

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

The converse:

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

The converse:

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Jesus is the house (Temple) of God. Only one house has living water.

Jesus is not saying HE will evict anyone when He tells us to abide in the Vine of Life, He is saying that the created human being who does not abide in that house will wither and die.

What Jesus said implies this: It implies that NOT abiding in the Vine involves a conscious, deliberate choice on the part of someone who has been given eternal life in Christ.

IMO we'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would do that unless he believes the lie: "You will not surely die" (Genesis 3:4).

Jesus says the one who has been given eternal life in Him will wither and die IF that one does not abide in Him.

You say: "You will NOT surely die".

No one is saying that God will evict you from the house. The choice is not a choice God is making if you do not abide in the Vine.

(Please note that wen I say "you" I mean anyone who has been given eternal life in Christ).

 

[marks]

What Jesus said implies this: It implies that NOT abiding in the Vine involves a conscious, deliberate choice on the part of someone who has been given eternal life in Christ.

No it doesn't.

And I'm going with what it says, not what someone else thinks is implied in the passage.

The Greek, Meno, abide, remain, dwell.

I drive down the street, and I point to a house. I don't meno there. I point to another house. I don't meno there. I point to my house. I meno there.

I don't abide in those houses, and I never did. By way of analogy, you're assuming I did, by the way you interpret that passage.

And seriously, the way the Scriptures are written, the one who is born again remains born again, there isn't any wiggle room.

Here's another:

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

If we are citizens of heaven now, He will transform our bodies to be like His then. If it doesn't happen to any one of us who are citizens of heaven now, then this verse isn't true. I'm happy to report, it IS true.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

Eternal life is IN CHRIST ALONE. It can be lost if the CREATED human being believes he will not surely die if he deliberately and knowingly and willfully disobeys the commandment of God.

What "commandment of god" are you claiming must not be disobeyed, or the person loses "Eternal Life".

 

[Zao is life]

No it doesn't.

And I'm going with what it says, not what someone else thinks is implied in the passage.

The Greek, Meno, abide, remain, dwell.

I drive down the street, and I point to a house. I don't meno there. I point to another house. I don't meno there. I point to my house. I meno there.

I don't abide in those houses, and I never did. By way of analogy, you're assuming I did, by the way you interpret that passage.

And seriously, the way the Scriptures are written, the one who is born again remains born again, there isn't any wiggle room.

Here's another:

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

If we are citizens of heaven now, He will transform our bodies to be like His then. If it doesn't happen to any one of us who are citizens of heaven now, then this verse isn't true. I'm happy to report, it IS true.

Much love!

You only drink of the living water because you NOW dwell in the house with the living water.

Living water is not static water. You need to keep drinking of it, or you will die. Do you read all the New Testament scriptures referring to saints that fall away / become apostate in unbelief, believing that such a thing is impossible?

Apostasy/falling away = no longer dwelling in the house of God by choice. It involves no longer drinking of the living water in the house of God that keeps you alive.

 

[Zao is life]

What "commandment of god" are you claiming must not be disobeyed, or the person loses "Eternal Life".

The kind of commandment that warns you that if you do not continue to drink of the living water that flows in the house of God alone because you believe the lie that you will not surely die, then you will die.

 

[Marty fox]

The kind of commandment that warns you that if you do not continue to drink of the living water that flows in the house of God alone because you believe the lie that you will not surely die, then you will die.

If what you say is true then salvation depends on what we do not what Jesus did.

The only unforgivable sin is the constant rejection of the Holy Spirit

 

[Behold]

The kind of commandment that warns you that if you do not continue to drink of the living water that flows in the house of God alone because you believe the lie that you will not surely die, then you will die.

No verse in a Bible says that we are supposed to Drink Living Water.
So, whomever taught you this, is not familar with a NT.

Look.

Jesus is THE Living Water......and Jesus is INSIDE every Born again Christian.......so, that's better then a "drink".

 

[Behold]

You need to keep drinking of it, or you will die.s no longer drinking of the living water in the house of God that keeps you alive.

So, go ahead and tell us how you are "always drinking the living water". @Zao is life .

 

[Zao is life]

If what you say is true then salvation depends on what we do not what Jesus did.

The only unforgivable sin is the constant rejection of the Holy Spirit

Salvation depends on what Jesus did. Whether or not you keep drinking of the water of life in Christ Jesus depends on what you do or don't do, not on what Jesus did or will do.

 

[Behold]

Salvation depends on what Jesus did. Whether or not you keep drinking of the water of life in Christ Jesus depends on what you do or don't do, not on what Jesus did or will do.

If Salvation depends on what Jesus did, as you stated.... then why are you trying to prove that its what you do, that keeps you saved?