Do you believe the lie?

[Aunty Jane]

I see zero difference between the two terms. God has always been immortal, never having a beginning or ending. Angels having a creation and a possible ending if they rebel against God and humans who have an ending and a death, but if faithful believers can be saved and have a resurrection unto a newly provided immortality...ie: no ending, no additional death. All will eventually be eternal life/immortality. The terms have the same meaning.

The difference is important. An immortal cannot die, whereas a mortal can. Everlasting life is conditional in an ongoing way….immortality is not…..it is granted as a one off gift to those whom God has called to rule with his son in heaven. (Rev 20:6)

Like humans, Angels can keep living as long as they obey God. But unlike us material beings, they cannot kill one another. Nor can they die of natural causes. Have you ever read about demons killing other demons…or angels killing other angels? Only God can eliminate spirit creatures from existence.

Mortal humans have killed each other from the time Cain killed his brother.
Mortality is a very human thing shared by all the mortal beings who share this planet with us. (Eccl 3:19-20)
When you speak of resurrection, do you understand that there are two different kinds of resurrection?
One is to immortal spirit life in heaven for Christ’s elect…..and the other is for the general resurrection of the dead that Jesus will perform by calling them from their graves to a restoration of life here on earth, rather than a continuation of it somewhere else. (John 5:28-29)

Luk_20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Angels have no natural cause of death….we humans didn’t either until our first parents disobeyed and were evicted from the garden. Access to the “tree of life” was denied. (Gen 3:22-24) Dearh was inherited by all of Adam’s children.

Those humans who are resurrected to heaven will be given spirit bodies like the angels….they have to be, to dwell in the presence of God. No mortal human would survive the experience.

 

[ewq1938]

The difference is important.

I don't see any.

Immortal means you cannot die.
Everlasting life means you cannot die.

Just two ways to express the same thing.

can't die = always alive

 

[Aunty Jane]

I don't see any.

Immortal means you cannot die.
Everlasting life means you cannot die.

Just two ways to express the same thing.

can't die = always alive

Mortals can always die if they disobey…..everlasting life can be terminated if you break the conditions as Adam and his wife did……immortals cannot die…period.

There was no natural cause of death stated in Eden.

 

[ewq1938]

Mortals can always die if they disobey…..everlasting life can be terminated if you break the conditions as Adam and his wife did

They were never immortal nor had everlasting life. Everlasting life is not everlasting if it can end.

……immortals cannot die…period.

Same for those who have everlasting life.

 

[Aunty Jane]

They were never immortal nor had everlasting life. Everlasting life is not everlasting if it can end.

Same for those who have everlasting life.

You are completely missing the point. Everlasting life is everlasting if you do nothing to terminate the conditions. Like the electricity supplied to your house….if you pay the bill you keep the supply…if you default, the electricity is cut off. If you keep up your payments the electricity supply will be continuous.

Death was not mentioned to the humans except as a penalty for disobedience. No disobedience would have meant no sin….and without sin there would have been no death….

Immortality means you cannot die from any cause.

 

[Hiddenthings]

What is concerning about God being able to eliminate rebels from his universal family?….as the Creator of life, he also has the right to dictate its terms.

His terms in Eden were clear….obey me and live…or disobey me and die. Those were the only choices they had. Adam was told that at death, he would return to the dust…nothing more.

Does your interpretation override Mark 12:25 and Luke 20:36? And beyond that... do you actually believe that, as an immortal, you would still be capable of sin and subject to death?

Hmmm still concerning!

 

[ewq1938]

Everlasting life is everlasting if you do nothing to terminate the conditions.

Immortality means you cannot die from any cause.

Unless you violate the terms?

What are you basing these definitions on? Let's discuss the meanings of the words used.

immortality

G110
ἀθανασία
athanasia
ath-an-as-ee'-ah
From a compound of G1 (as a negative particle) and G2288; deathlessness: - immortality.
Total KJV occurrences: 3


everlasting

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
Total KJV occurrences: 71

perpetual life is the same as immortality.


I don't see any way either can be revoked else neither was immortal or everlasting in the first place.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Does your interpretation override Mark 12:25 and Luke 20:36?

No, it is in complete harmony with them. Those resurrected to spirit Iife in heaven, enjoy the same kind of everlasting existence as the angels do. They will need no external means of life support.

And beyond that... do you actually believe that, as an immortal, you would still be capable of sin and subject to death?

Immortals cannot die….not even God can kill them….so they have already proven their faith unto death, so they are rewarded with immortality….but the humans brought back to this life will be offered the same opportunity as Adam and his wife received. God did not create humans to live in heaven…he created them to live on this earth which was specially prepared for them. It’s why Jesus came to give his life so that humanity can return to the life that God prepared for them in Eden…..to live forever in paradise on earth.
Do you find that somehow repulsive?

Hmmm still concerning!

I think it’s a wonderful prospect…to finally enjoy what Adam and his wife threw away. Through their disobedience, we lost everlasting life…. but thanks to Jesus’ sacrifice, we can get it all back.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Unless you violate the terms?

What are you basing these definitions on? Let's discuss the meanings of the words used.

immortality

G110
ἀθανασία
athanasia
ath-an-as-ee'-ah
From a compound of G1 (as a negative particle) and G2288; deathlessness: - immortality.
Total KJV occurrences: 3


everlasting

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
Total KJV occurrences: 71

perpetual life is the same as immortality.


I don't see any way either can be revoked else neither was immortal or everlasting in the first place.

You’re not looking.
The life God gave the first humans was conditional…..it would be “everlasting” or perpetual, as long as they obeyed his directive not to eat the fruit of just one tree. Death could only come through disobedience.

The life God lives is totally different and distinct to any other life in existence. Only the Creator had no beginning and will have no end of his existence……his children, both in heaven and on earth were created…..not as immortal beings, but were in every way “mortal” which doesn’t mean that they have to die….only that they can if they break the rules. We know that Adam and his wife broke the rules and lost their everlasting life. Jesus came to get it back for us. That is what God’s Kingdom is for…..to restore what was lost. God had a purpose for our creation which will finally be realized when sin and death are abolished forever.

 

[ewq1938]

You’re not looking.
The life God gave the first humans was conditional…..it would be “everlasting” or perpetual

And what verse says that they were created with everlasting (not apparently everlasting) life?

The life God lives is totally different and distinct to any other life in existence. Only the Creator had no beginning and will have no end of his existence……his children, both in heaven and on earth were created…..not as immortal beings, but were in every way “mortal” which doesn’t mean that they have to die….only that they can if they break the rules. We know that Adam and his wife broke the rules and lost their everlasting life. Jesus came to get it back for us. That is what God’s Kingdom is for…..to restore what was lost. God had a purpose for our creation which will finally be realized when sin and death are abolished forever.

You haven't demonstrated that the Greek words for immortal and the Greek phrase "everlasting life" are different where one can be lost and one cannot. Both are permanent and have the same meaning, according to the Greek language and even in English not that that counts much.

 

[Aunty Jane]

And what verse says that they were created with everlasting (not apparently everlasting) life?

LOL…the one that says ‘if you eat of this fruit that I have claimed as my own property’….”YOU WILL DIE”

What does Gen 3:22-24 say?…

”Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.” (ESV).
Are you getting it yet?
To eat from “the tree of life” meant “living forever”….they were barred from the only thing that could give them everlasting life…..they broke the law and death was the penalty. No human was permitted to partake of that tree, and angelic guards made sure that they didn’t.

If only they had simply obeyed as God had told them…they would have lived forever in paradise with all their children, filling the earth and enjoying creation with no worries….no sickness, no aging and no death to spoil the experience.

You haven't demonstrated that the Greek words for immortal and the Greek phrase "everlasting life" are different where one can be lost and one cannot. Both are permanent and have the same meaning, according to the Greek language and even in English not that that counts much.

How many times do I have to say it…..immortality means “deathless”…an immortal cannot die.

Those given access to an opportunity to experience “everlasting life” in mortal flesh…..a “perpetuation” of life that was guaranteed by God in his provision of “the tree of life”, had to obey God’s rules in order to eat from that tree and live forever….as that scripture in Genesis says.

We know that Adam and his wife failed that test of obedience and paid the penalty themselves and passed an awful inheritance of sin and death onto their children. No sin would have meant no death. No death means living forever. Surely it’s not that difficult to understand?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Immortals cannot die….

Sorry I'm still not following you.

Here are the quotes in full...

Mark 12:25 "For when they (Saints) rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."

Luke 20:36 "For they (Saints) cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection."

If those who are blessed with immortality (proven faith unto death) are said to be like the angels in nature, in fact, equal to them, as Scripture states; how can you justify the belief that angels can sin and be killed, as you’ve claimed?

In other words, the Lord is drawing a comparison between the reward of the saints (immortality) and the nature of the angels (also immortal beings)— their future state is likened to that of the angels.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Sorry I'm still not following you.

Let me see if I can explain it more simply……?

Here are the quotes in full...

Mark 12:25 "For when they (Saints) rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."

First of all, who are the “saints”? These are Christ’s elect or chosen ones….so what role are they chosen for?

Rev 20:6 tells us….

“Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.” (ESV)

So those who experience the “first resurrection” are raised immortal…”the second (permanent) death” has no power over them. These are raised with spirit bodies like the angels so as to reign with Christ in heaven. They are genderless, so like the angels they do not marry. There is no actual gender in heaven because there is no reproduction. God and his spirit sons are portrayed as male, but there is no real gender in heaven. All who live there are created, not born. (Jesus is the exception of course, as he was born as a human on earth)

Luke 20:36 "For they (Saints) cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection."

As above…the saints are not subject to the second death but are resurrected with spirit bodies like other sons of God. Among those spirit sons there is rank and order, but these “joint-heirs with Christ“ will be of a higher standing than angels, but in the same form as they are.

As Paul said in 1 Cor 6:1-3…
“Does any one of you who has a dispute with another dare to go to court before unrighteous men, and not before the holy ones? 2 Or do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you not competent to try very trivial matters? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels?”
So the “saints” or “holy ones” will judge the world, and even the angels…..they will rule with Jesus in his Kingdom.

If those who are blessed with immortality (proven faith unto death) are said to be like the angels in nature, in fact, equal to them, as Scripture states; how can you justify the belief that angels can sin and be killed, as you’ve claimed?

What do you think satan and his demons were? Those once faithful angels will rue the day they chose to disobey their Creator. What is their destiny? Jesus tells us that they bound for “the lake of fire”. So even though spirit beings have no natural cause of death, they can still be destroyed by God for their crimes against him and against those who worship him in faith.

In other words, the Lord is drawing a comparison between the reward of the saints (immortality) and the nature of the angels (also immortal beings)— their future state is likened to that of the angels.

Yes, their state of being is like the angels….they are raised as Jesus was, ready for life in heaven….they are raised as spirits……humans cannot survive there. We mortals are confined to the earth that supplies our life support. We cannot survive outside of earth’s atmosphere….the higher you go the less oxygen there is.

The “saints” will be raised immortal, but the angels never were. They can be put to death only by God as will be deonstrated with satan and his demons….the lake of fire is their final destiny.