Churches weigh in on actual belief in creation and Genesis

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dad

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When I was in a Catholic school they taught about Adam and Eve and the garden etc. From what I have heard from so many Christians and Catholics in the last number of years either all or most of them no longer believe in Genesis as real and creation etc. I consider that to be apostasy myself. Perhaps I have the wrong impression and Catholics and other large organizations do believe in a real creation as per Genesis? Methodists? Catholic? Presbyterian etc etc? If you are in one of the churches like that, weigh in and explain.
 

Windmill Charge

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. Perhaps I have the wrong impression and Catholics and other large organizations do believe in a real creation as per Genesis?

Because society and especially the educated part of society believes exclusively in evolution and not in Christianity or the bible. Church leaders and theological colleges have surrendered the belief in the bible for the belief in evolution.

There are churches, church leaders and organisations that reject evolution but you will have to search for them.

Organisations that promote creation are:- Answers in Genesis and Creation.com.
 
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dad

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Because society and especially the educated part of society believes exclusively in evolution and not in Christianity or the bible. Church leaders and theological colleges have surrendered the belief in the bible for the belief in evolution.
Isn't the 'church' supposed to believe rather than represent pagans of society?
There are churches, church leaders and organisations that reject evolution but you will have to search for them.
How would belief not be universal in the 'church'? Do not almost all churches claim to follow the nicene creed? In that it says God created the heaven and earth.
Organisations that promote creation are:- Answers in Genesis and Creation.com.
So now we need an 'organization' that believes the bible, because churches do not?
 

Deborah_

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Christians have always disagreed on whether the first chapters of Genesis are to be "taken literally". This is why the creeds say things like "I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth" but don't specify creation in 6 days.

This is why (as far as I know) no denomination prescribes belief in a 6-day creation. And Christians today have a wide range of understandings, from "literal" 6-day creation 6000 years ago to theistic evolution. The crucial thing is that God created it all.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Christians have always disagreed on whether the first chapters of Genesis are to be "taken literally". This is why the creeds say things like "I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth" but don't specify creation in 6 days.
If the creation account and the story of Adam and Eve is not literal, then Jesus isn’t literal either. It was because of the first Adam that Jesus became “the second Adam”. We have to know why Jesus had to be born as a human child to give his life for us.
This is why (as far as I know) no denomination prescribes belief in a 6-day creation. And Christians today have a wide range of understandings, from "literal" 6-day creation 6000 years ago to theistic evolution. The crucial thing is that God created it all.
Examining the creation account in the original Hebrew is also helpful because the creative periods called “days” don’t have to be 24 hour periods. The Hebrew word for “day” is “yôm” and it can have several meanings….

The Jewish day began at sundown and ended at sundown the following day…..in the Genesis account it says “there was evening and there was morning” and that constituted a “day”….but that is only a night if the day began at sundown and ended in the morning. So it must mean something else…a prolonged period of undetermined length. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that each creative “day” had to be 24 hours long…..Gen 2:4 uses the same word to describe the entire creative 6 day process….

“This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.”

We ourselves in English use this word to describe eras….”in my grandfather’s day” doesn’t mean a 24 hour period.

So getting hung up on 24 hour “Young Earth Creationism“ makes some Christians look foolish when science is telling us that the earth is very ancient. In fact, when we consider the opening statement in Genesis 1, there is no timeframe between earth’s creation, and its preparation for habitation, which could have taken millions of years.

Nothing in the creation account changes if the days are not 24 hour periods……they could have been very extended periods of time, and that would explain the extinction of the dinosaurs. We know they existed because there is evidence for them, but the YEC scenario cannot explain them. They were not mentioned in Genesis, nor in the days of Noah before the flood….and there were no dinosaurs on the ark.

Can we imagine encountering an animal of that size? A swipe of the tail or a misplaced step and any human would be dead.…and there is no archeological evidence that dinosaurs existed when man was the last creature that God created. They were long gone. Whatever their purpose was, they were no longer needed.

We also have to remember that God is a Creator…..not a magician. He does not live in our timezone, so time for him is unlimited. What we do see from the Genesis account is that God set himself certain tasks in successive increments, and with the conclusion of each “day”, he expressed his satisfaction with the work he had done thus far.

But, there is no conclusion for the 7th day mentioned…so might we still be in it? Will God bring all things to a successful conclusion at the end of the 7th day, and express his satisfaction once again?
Isaiah 55:8-9, 11 suggests that this might be the case…

”For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. . . .so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.” (ESV)
 

Windmill Charge

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Isn't the 'church' supposed to believe rather than represent pagans of society?

How would belief not be universal in the 'church'? Do not almost all churches claim to follow the nicene creed? In that it says God created the heaven and earth.

So now we need an 'organization' that believes the bible, because churches do not?

Talk to people in your church, what do they believe about the bible? How much of it do they believe? Do they even know what the Nicene creed is?
You do belong to a church where you are found on Sunday so ask them questions.
Try going to other churches in your area and asking about creation/evolution?

'Organisations' have you not heard of the many, many Christian organisations that spread the gospel, deliver aid to the poor and even seek political changes.
 

dad

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Christians have always disagreed on whether the first chapters of Genesis are to be "taken literally".
I do not recall any such disagreement in the bible actually. Maybe you mean church organizations?
This is why the creeds say things like "I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth" but don't specify creation in 6 days.
Well, if God created Eve and heaven and earth etc as Genesis says, there is no way to fit that with old ages or evolution etc. They are diametrically opposed. When the creed says Jesus made all things, that does not mean a big bang.
This is why (as far as I know) no denomination prescribes belief in a 6-day creation.
Actually many famous preachers we hear do exactly that. John MacArthur, Adrian Rogers, etc etc etc
And Christians today have a wide range of understandings, from "literal" 6-day creation 6000 years ago to theistic evolution.
No. They may think they have an understanding. If the believe something other than God and Scripture, they actually have delusions, other beliefs, misunderstandings etc
The crucial thing is that God created it all.
No, the actual important thing is that He is not a liar, incompetent, or unable to say what He means, as Jesus confirmed. Trying to say 'he' created it all but did not really create anything, it was all due to natural processes and laws and imagined great time is less than a joke.
 

dad

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Talk to people in your church, what do they believe about the bible? How much of it do they believe? Do they even know what the Nicene creed is?
You do belong to a church where you are found on Sunday so ask them questions.
Try going to other churches in your area and asking about creation/evolution?
Better to simply believe in Jesus, and His word. The word church as you probably know is called out ones. Not decrepit apostate building centred organizations (many of which have abused children and others) that like to use the word church
'Organisations' have you not heard of the many, many Christian organisations that spread the gospel, deliver aid to the poor and even seek political changes.
Yes. Some organizations preach the gospel. Great. Some organizations feed the poor etc, Christian or not, excellent. Not really the topic though
 

Deborah_

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If the creation account and the story of Adam and Eve is not literal, then Jesus isn’t literal either.
Actually, that doesn't follow. Not everything in the Bible is literal. But if you replaced the word 'literal' with the word 'true', then I would agree with you. Jesus' parables are true, although they don't describe actual events.

I do not recall any such disagreement in the bible actually. Maybe you mean church organizations?
Long before the church split into denominations, the theologians were debating whether or not Genesis 1 was literal. It's nothing new.

Well, if God created Eve and heaven and earth etc as Genesis says, there is no way to fit that with old ages or evolution etc. They are diametrically opposed. When the creed says Jesus made all things, that does not mean a big bang.

What scientists call 'the big bang' is the sudden appearance of something where before there was nothing. Isn't that what you would expect if God created the universe?

Actually many famous preachers we hear do exactly that. John MacArthur, Adrian Rogers, etc etc etc
They are all individuals, and are entitled to have an opinion. But you and I don't have to agree with them. None of the creeds or confessions demand that every member of a denomination follows the same line on the how or when of creation.

Trying to say 'he' created it all but did not really create anything, it was all due to natural processes and laws and imagined great time is less than a joke.

So who made the laws? Who designed the processes? Who supervised it all down the millennia? Doesn't that count as creation?
 

Aunty Jane

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Actually, that doesn't follow.
If Adam and Eve were not real, then the whole point of Jesus coming into the world as “the last Adam” makes no sense. He died because of what the first Adam did to all of us as his children. (Rom 5:12)
Not everything in the Bible is literal. But if you replaced the word 'literal' with the word 'true', then I would agree with you. Jesus' parables are true, although they don't describe actual events.
I never suggested that everything in the Bible is literal, but when Jesus gave a parable he said so….His reference to the first man and woman was not a parable.

Jesus answered a question from the Pharisees on the grounds for divorce….
“And Pharisees came to him intent on testing him, and they asked: “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of grounds?” 4 In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.” (Matt 19: 3-6)

Then in verse 9 he said….”I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of sexual immorality, and marries another commits adultery.”

I am sure this scripture will make a lot of Christians feel uneasy, especially if they have sought a divorce from their spouse on unscriptural grounds. They cannot become “one flesh” with any other unless the divorce is for sexual immorality…..and adultery is against God’s law, carrying the death penalty.

The whole basis for marriage was outlined from “the beginning”. “God made them male and female” and they were commanded to “fill the earth” with their children.…but in a fallen state, they needed saving.

If Adam and his wife were illustrative, it undermines the whole basis for redemption. If they were not real…then fall is not real, and Jesus died for nothing.

Do you understand what redemption is?
 

Gottservant

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When I was in a Catholic school they taught about Adam and Eve and the garden etc. From what I have heard from so many Christians and Catholics in the last number of years either all or most of them no longer believe in Genesis as real and creation etc. I consider that to be apostasy myself. Perhaps I have the wrong impression and Catholics and other large organizations do believe in a real creation as per Genesis? Methodists? Catholic? Presbyterian etc etc? If you are in one of the churches like that, weigh in and explain.
The question is: would you hand them over to the Devil for their lack of faith? (really?)
 

dad

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Long before the church split into denominations, the theologians were debating whether or not Genesis 1 was literal. It's nothing new.
So we should care what 'theologians' thought??
What scientists call 'the big bang' is the sudden appearance of something where before there was nothing. Isn't that what you would expect if God created the universe?
No. I expect He first made the earth as He stated and that He is not a liar. The earth was not here in the imaginary bb event
They are all individuals, and are entitled to have an opinion. But you and I don't have to agree with them. None of the creeds or confessions demand that every member of a denomination follows the same line on the how or when of creation.
Genesis tells how. We just need to believe it. Anyone who attempts to twist it as if it really means something else is on comically thin ice here
So who made the laws? Who designed the processes? Who supervised it all down the millennia? Doesn't that count as creation?
What laws? Does science know the spiritual laws and forces? God is not a mickey mouse supervisor, but the creator of all things visible and invisible in earth and heaven
 

Deborah_

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So we should care what 'theologians' thought??
They're the ones whose writings have survived. That's how we know what Christians in the 2nd-10th centuries were thinking.

No. I expect He first made the earth as He stated and that He is not a liar. The earth was not here in the imaginary bb event

According to Genesis 1:1, He "made the heavens and the earth". Out of nothing. There was a starting point in time - which is what the term 'big bang' refers to.

Genesis tells how.
Actually, that's one of the things that Genesis doesn't tell us.

God is not a mickey mouse supervisor, but the creator of all things visible and invisible in earth and heaven
I agree with you there. He's not a magician either - so why do some people suppose that He made things suddenly appear like a "hey presto" magic trick?
 

Jay Ross

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Please allow me to post how I believe the creation story unfolded: -

GENESIS

How Creation unfolded
(Gen 2:4-9; Job 38:4-11; John 1:1-5)

1:1 First God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Then God said, the first time and the first day unfolded

3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So, the evening and the morning were the first day.

Then God said, the second time and the second day unfolded

6 Then God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." 7 Thus God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So, the evening and the morning were the second day.

Then God said, the third and the fourth times and the third day unfolded

9 Then God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.

Then God said, the fifth time and the fourth day unfolded

14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Then God said, the six time and the fifth day unfolded

20 Then God said, "Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens." 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." 23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

Then God said, the seventh and eight times and the sixth day unfolded

24 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind"; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

29 And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food"; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So, the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Then God rested, from His creation work and the seventh day unfolded

2:
1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The above presentation of the Creation Story, I believe, provides a better understanding of how Creation unfolded over seven time periods which God/Scripture called Days. The Creation story does not indicate the length of these time periods in terms of man's understanding of a day as we experience our days.

My understanding of a Day of the Lord is of the order of 374,000 24-hour days which we experience within man's reference for time. However, it is best if we just accept that each day of creation within God's time frame of reference is simply outside of our ability to comprehend just how long the days of creation are, within our ability to actually understand the time period for creation.

Shalom
 

dad

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They're the ones whose writings have survived.
So has the coliseum
That's how we know what Christians in the 2nd-10th centuries were thinking.
What matters is that believed Scripture or not. Easy to figure out
According to Genesis 1:1, He "made the heavens and the earth". Out of nothing. There was a starting point in time - which is what the term 'big bang' refers to.
Just because there was a beginning for earth does not mean it was some big bang. On the contrary we know earth was here from the beginning. The stars were not. Big bang lies
Actually, that's one of the things that Genesis doesn't tell us.


I agree with you there. He's not a magician either - so why do some people suppose that He made things suddenly appear like a "hey presto" magic trick?
Why not? He can do it many ways. Any way He feels like. Speaking it into being or out! Forming a man from dirt. Etc