Is the "free gift" of salvation really free? - Honestly?

[Behold]

That saw cuts both ways.
Especially for those (like you) who are never learning or ever able to come to the knowledge of the Truth.

[

As i posted to you on another of your "false gospel" Threads.

John 14:6.

"Jesus is THE TRUTH"..

So, because i KNOW THAT, i just told YOU so.

You dont understand this yet, because you are too busy asking questions, because you have no real answers.. @St. SteVen

 

[St. SteVen]

John 14:6.

"Jesus is THE TRUTH"..

So, because i KNOW THAT, i just told YOU so.

I asked you what it means. (if memory serves)

What does it mean that "Jesus is the truth"?

[

 

[Behold]

What does it mean that "Jesus is the truth"?

It means that "in Jesus, are hidden all the Treasures of Wisdom and Knowledge".

It also means that God's word is "Spirit and Truth", utterly.

It means that the Holy Spirit is the "Spirit of Truth".

Also notice this.

Someone like Barak Obama, or Oprah Winfrey, will say...>"there are many Paths to God".

But Jesus says........none are TRUE, as Im the "only Way to the Father"... which is THE Truth.

 

[St. SteVen]

Also notice this.

Someone like Barak Obama, or Oprah Winfrey, will say...>"there are many Paths to God".

But Jesus says........none are TRUE, as Im the "only Way to the Father"... which is THE Truth.

Jesus is the way, but how many ways are there to Jesus?

We've all heard the biblical claim that Jesus is the way. (the truth and the life...) But how many ways are there to Jesus? - Does your church provide the only way to Jesus? - Do other churches provide a way to Jesus? - Do other religions provide a way to Jesus? - Can Jesus find someone...

www.christianityboard.com

[

 

[Behold]

Jesus is the way, but how many ways are there to Jesus?

We've all heard the biblical claim that Jesus is the way. (the truth and the life...) But how many ways are there to Jesus? - Does your church provide the only way to Jesus? - Do other churches provide a way to Jesus? - Do other religions provide a way to Jesus? - Can Jesus find someone...

www.christianityboard.com

[

"The Way to Jesus".......is..

Our "Faith is counted by God, as righteousness".

Christianity begins for the SINNER, when they initially trust in Christ, and this results in eternal "justification by faith" without works or water.

So, once God has seen their faith in Christ, in their Heart, then God does 3 things..

God accepts their faith, forever.

God forgives all their sin, forever.

God creates in them the "new birth" which is to be born again "in Christ" as "one with God".

Now, what is that "new birth"........actually.

Well, its literally the reestablishment of Spiritual Union with God, that Adam lost for us all, in the Garden.
But this time, because of The Cross of Christ........this Spiritual is guaranteed to be ETERNAL because its based on the finished work of Jesus on The Cross., and that is why its "the GIFT of Salvation"..

 

[Jay Ross]

Luke 14:28 NIV
“Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and
estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it?

No, Luke 14:28ff is not about the cost of discipleship, but rather it is a parable about the present times and the nation of Israel's attempt to, in their own strength, to resurrect their "Temple" in the vein hope of being able to reconnect with God.

In these parables Jesus is telling the Israelites that: -

1. they do not have the means by which they can rebuild the Temple,
2. the nations around them laugh at them and will rise up to stop them from completing the construction of the third temple,
3. the nations will assemble within sight of Jerusalem to prepare for a battle against Jerusalem,
4. Jesus will be seen by Israel judging the king of the earth and overcoming them within sight of Jerusalem,
5. Israel will consider if with their resources they can overcome the king in battle with the nations,
6. Israel will come to realise that they cannot overcome the king fighting with the nations and will seek His terms of peace, and
7. Jesus warns Israel that if they have lost their saltiness that they will be discarded and thrown onto the dung heap.

In telling these parables to the nation of Israel, 2,000 years ago about the circumstances that Israel is finding themselves in today, Jesus is indicating the time that Israel will be redeemed by God so that they can enter once more into God's purposes, but with a very clear message that if they do not measure up that they will be discarded from that time onwards.

Yes, we Christians can apply these parables to us too if we have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Shalom

 

[David Lamb]

No, Luke 14:28ff is not about the cost of discipleship, but rather it is a parable about the present times and the nation of Israel's attempt to, in their own strength, to resurrect their "Temple" in the vein hope of being able to reconnect with God.

In these parables Jesus is telling the Israelites that: -

1. they do not have the means by which they can rebuild the Temple,
2. the nations around them laugh at them and will rise up to stop them from completing the construction of the third temple,
3. the nations will assemble within sight of Jerusalem to prepare for a battle against Jerusalem,
4. Jesus will be seen by Israel judging the king of the earth and overcoming them within sight of Jerusalem,
5. Israel will consider if with their resources they can overcome the king in battle with the nations,
6. Israel will come to realise that they cannot overcome the king fighting with the nations and will seek His terms of peace, and
7. Jesus warns Israel that if they have lost their saltiness that they will be discarded and thrown onto the dung heap.

In telling these parables to the nation of Israel, 2,000 years ago about the circumstances that Israel is finding themselves in today, Jesus is indicating the time that Israel will be redeemed by God so that they can enter once more into God's purposes, but with a very clear message that if they do not measure up that they will be discarded from that time onwards.

Yes, we Christians can apply these parables to us too if we have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Shalom

You say that Luke 14:28ff is not about the cost of discipleship, but rather about the present times and the nation of Israel's attempt to, in their own strength, to resurrect their "Temple" . But that doesn't fit with the context. Look at the three preceding verses:

“Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. "And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.” (Lu 14:25-27 NKJV)

He immediately tells the parable about building a tower. So it is about the cost of discipleship.

 

[Jay Ross]

You say that Luke 14:28ff is not about the cost of discipleship, but rather about the present times and the nation of Israel's attempt to, in their own strength, to resurrect their "Temple." But that doesn't fit with the context. Look at the three preceding verses:

“Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. "And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.” (Lu 14:25-27 NKJV)

He immediately tells the parable about building a tower. So, it is about the cost of discipleship.

Your conclusion that Luke 14:28ff is about the cost of discipleship shows a lack of understanding of this passage.

The parable of checking if the nation of Israel has the means to be able to rebuild the second temple, which was levelled in 70 AD, places this parable squarely into the events that are happening in Jerusalem today. The word "tower" in this parable is a metaphor for the temple.

Matthew 21:33-36 and Mark 12:1-12 speaks of God building a tower/temple in the middle of His vineyard which he then leased out to his vinedressers.

Now in this parable in Luke 14:28ff we are told this
Luke 14:29-30: - 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'

NKJV​

After Israel is not able to rebuild the temple, we see that the Kings of the earth gather at Armageddon for one last attempt to trample God's Sanctuary and His earth Hosts, but in verses 14:31-32 we see that there is a King, I assume Jesus, judging the kings of the earth at Armageddon. When Israel realises that this king is more powerful than they are, they immediately seek His terms of peace, and those terms are that they must forsake all to become His disciples
​

The chapter end with a warning that if their salt has lost its saltiness, then they would be thrown out onto the dung heap and rejected in keeping with the parable of the wicked vine dressers.

Yes, you are right about Luke 14:28ff touching on the cost of discipleship, but this passage also points to when God will begin redeeming Israel again.

It is my view that Luke 14:28ff will unfold in around 20 years from now.

You sight context as a reason to reject what I had posted, but you have only focus on one aspect of Luke 14:28ff and not considered how Luke 14:28ff fits into the End Time prophecies.

Shalom

 

[David Lamb]

Your conclusion that Luke 14:28ff is about the cost of discipleship shows a lack of understanding of this passage.

The parable of checking if the nation of Israel has the means to be able to rebuild the second temple, which was levelled in 70 AD, places this parable squarely into the events that are happening in Jerusalem today. The word "tower" in this parable is a metaphor for the temple.

Matthew 21:33-36 and Mark 12:1-12 speaks of God building a tower/temple in the middle of His vineyard which he then leased out to his vinedressers.

Now in this parable in Luke 14:28ff we are told this
Luke 14:29-30: - 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'

NKJV​

After Israel is not able to rebuild the temple, we see that the Kings of the earth gather at Armageddon for one last attempt to trample God's Sanctuary and His earth Hosts, but in verses 14:31-32 we see that there is a King, I assume Jesus, judging the kings of the earth at Armageddon. When Israel realises that this king is more powerful than they are, they immediately seek His terms of peace, and those terms are that they must forsake all to become His disciples
​

The chapter end with a warning that if their salt has lost its saltiness, then they would be thrown out onto the dung heap and rejected in keeping with the parable of the wicked vine dressers.

Yes, you are right about Luke 14:28ff touching on the cost of discipleship, but this passage also points to when God will begin redeeming Israel again.

It is my view that Luke 14:28ff will unfold in around 20 years from now.

You sight context as a reason to reject what I had posted, but you have only focus on one aspect of Luke 14:28ff and not considered how Luke 14:28ff fits into the End Time prophecies.

Shalom

I just don't see that Jesus suddenly changes the subject, from saying, "And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.” in verse 27, to some supposed rebuilding of the temple in verse 28 and following.

 

[Jay Ross]

I just don't see that Jesus suddenly changes the subject, from saying, "And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.” in verse 27, to some supposed rebuilding of the temple in verse 28 and following.

Well, I can only point out what I have been shown from scripture. Whether or not you accept what I have posted, is really not my problem.

I have been shown from scripture how many prophetic End Time events, like Luke 14:28ff, fit together to all occur in around 20 years' time.

Probably, I may not be around in 20 years' time, to have, what I am seeing in the scriptures, confirmed for me, but my spirit is at peace, knowing that what I have posted will come to pass around the year 2044.

Shalom

 

[St. SteVen]

This is the evangelical bait-and-switch.
Where's the ethics in that? Should people be tricked into the kingdom?

Do we lead someone to Christ and then cut them loose? Nope.
They need to be discipled, right?

So we pile on the expectations.
- Daily Bible reading and prayer.
- Regular church attendance and tithing.
- Sharing the Gospel.
- Discipling others.
- Good works.

So much for a free gift.
It's a free gift... it will cost you everything.

To anyone who may be insulted by this post, consider this...
Jesus said to count the cost, to take up the cross daily and follow.

When we lead with the "free gift" of eternal life,
are we being completely honest?
"Here's your free gift; goodbye; see you in heaven."

Or if someone isn't interested in our "free gift",
we warn them that eternal hell fire awaits those who refuse the "free gift".

What sort of "free gift" is that? (extortion)

[

 

[Wynona]

This is the evangelical bait-and-switch.
Where's the ethics in that? Should people be tricked into the kingdom?

Do we lead someone to Christ and then cut them loose? Nope.
They need to be discipled, right?

So we pile on the expectations.
- Daily Bible reading and prayer.
- Regular church attendance and tithing.
- Sharing the Gospel.
- Discipling others.
- Good works.

So much for a free gift.
It's a free gift... it will cost you everything.

To anyone who may be insulted by this post, consider this...
Jesus said to count the cost, to take up the cross daily and follow.

When we lead with the "free gift" of eternal life,
are we being completely honest?
"Here's your free gift; goodbye; see you in heaven."

Or if someone isn't interested in our "free gift",
we warn them that eternal hell fire awaits those who refuse the "free gift".

What sort of "free gift" is that? (extortion)

[

Maybe in leading others to Christ, people should be honest about the difficulty and the amount of suffering involved.

Christianity is not for everyone. It costs worldly ease and success. We shouldn't want people to follow Christ under compulsion. Either you want to serve Christ and obey Him or you don't. Either the Kingdom of God is worth suffering now for or it's not.

 

[quietthinker]

Maybe in leading others to Christ, people should be honest about the difficulty and the amount of suffering involved.

Christianity is not for everyone. It costs worldly ease and success. We shouldn't want people to follow Christ under compulsion. Either you want to serve Christ and obey Him or you don't. Either the Kingdom of God is worth suffering now for or it's not.

'Leading to Christ'! and afterwards, what role is assumed? Could it be that what is led to is anything but Christ? Could it be that seed sowing means wearing a tuxedo and polished shoes as one walks the furrows .....expecting to take up the scythe immediately for a harvest? or does seed sowing not have enough status?
Ah yes, 'leading to Christ'!....quite frankly and to the chagrin of many, I must ask, who has lead me to Christ in this forum?...hmmmm
I have been led to many opinions and points of view but to Christ?

Do we even trust Christ to choose his own methods and people instead of those who deem themselves leaders?
Have we substituted 'witnessing methods' for trust in God's Spirit?
....and when we talk about cost, I'd rather hear from those imprisoned and whipped because they believed in Jesus (they might have something inspirational to tell me) long before I hear of how bad someone was.....and how right they now are.

 

[Behold]

we warn them that eternal hell fire awaits those who refuse the "free gift".

Going to Heaven, or going to Hell is your own choice.

A person knows that to go to Heaven, is to trust in Christ, while you are alive, so that God will forgive your sin and give you the "new birth" in the spirit.
If you decide to pass on that and wait and see, then you'll go to Hell after you die., because you chose to not take God's Gift of Salvation.

 

[Behold]

Do we lead someone to Christ and then cut them loose? Nope.

Universalist like you only lead people to Hell.

Never try to pretend you are leading anyone to Christ, when you are tellihg everyone they are all going to heaven.

Imagine a deceiver telling sinners they are all going to heaven.

You dont have to imagine it, as you are the deceiver @St. SteVen

 

[St. SteVen]

when you are tellihg everyone they are all going to heaven.

When will you stop lying about me?

[

 

[Aunty Jane]

Maybe in leading others to Christ, people should be honest about the difficulty and the amount of suffering involved.

Even Jesus told us to count the cost because not everyone is willing to make the sacrifice, nor are they really prepared for what becoming a disciple really requires of them. (Luke 14:26-33).....

Jesus was in full knowledge of what it would mean for him as a human of flesh and blood, but he willingly made that sacrifice for each one of us...it cost him something and it cost his Father something too.
Abraham’s being asked to sacrifice his beloved son was figurative, so that we would see and feel what it would have cost both of them. Who could not identify with Abraham being obedient to his God in such a difficult request, but having full faith that what his God asked of him was necessary and that since all the promises for the future rested with Isaac, he figured that if he died, God would raise him from the dead. (Heb 11:17-19) That is what faith looks like.

Christianity is not for everyone. It costs worldly ease and success.

Yes...chasing after what “the world” promotes is what the devil wants us to do, being constantly distracted by what influential people in his world are doing. Wealth and status in satan’s world won’t buy us life. (1 John 2:15-17; 1 John 5:19) neither will the constant bloodshed of the warring nations bring us peace. (James 1:19-25)

We shouldn't want people to follow Christ under compulsion.

That is what stood out in Jesus’ ministry.....he never forced himself on anyone...he presented his truth and allowed human hearts to responds as they would.....it was always given on a “take it or leave it” basis. Most chose to leave it, content with the status quo. A comfortable lie is easier to live with than an uncomfortable truth.

Fear should have no part in becoming a Christian....love is the identifier....most especially love among our Christian brothers and sisters. (John 13:34-35) Sadly we don’t see that in the divided churches of Christendom, which is why mainstream churches are dying. People are disillusioned by the hypocrisy of saying one thing and doing the opposite.

Either you want to serve Christ and obey Him or you don't. Either the Kingdom of God is worth suffering now for or it's not.

That’s it!
But first I believe you have to know what the Kingdom of God is, and what role Jesus and his elect play in it....and how the ‘coming’ of this kingdom gives us back what Adam took away from us.
What God started in Eden will be completed in the administration of the kingdom’s rule over redeemed mankind. What God starts, he finishes successfully....we just have to understand his methods. (Isa 55:11)

 

[Behold]

When will you stop lying about me?

If you deny that you have both taught and defended "UNIVERSALISM" on this forum, then you are the dishonet one.

Universalism teaches that you dont have to be forgiven your sin or born again before you die, and you will still go to Heaven, as if you are always a Christian.

That's your "gospel".
Its Satanic its false, and any unbeliever who believes you and dies, will go to Hell because you sent them there.
Your false gosple defines you.. @St. SteVen

 

[Aunty Jane]

If you deny that you have both taught and defended "UNIVERSALISM" on this forum, then you are the dishonet one.

Universalism teaches that you dont have to be forgiven your sin or born again before you die, and you will still go to Heaven, as if you are always a Christian.

That's your "gospel".
Its Satanic its false, and any unbeliever who believes you and dies, will go to Hell because you sent them there.
Your false gosple defines you.. @St. SteVen

Wow! It’s one thing to disagree with a person’s beliefs, and another thing entirely to condemn the person to a fate that does not even exist.

What if it’s your gospel that is false.....and you end up in the place where you send others?

It’s not your job to be anyone’s judge.....Jesus has that role, and I do not see anywhere in Scripture where he gave that job to you.

The “hell” you are consigning people to is a satanic lie......no such place exists because Jesus never taught that his Father was a sadistic fiend......God is the epitome of love...so he cannot torture anyone....nor is his justice served by such a destiny.

The Bible teaches everlasting life in contrast to everlasting death....that is all there is. No flames or torture...
Your own teachings are satanic....based on fear, not love.

 

[Behold]

Wow! It’s one thing to disagree with a person’s beliefs, and another thing entirely to condemn the person to a fate that does not even exist.

Im actually revealing this members willful deception.
I do the same with you.

Now... here is the reality Your fate exists.
Its exists as a person who denies that all "Christians" have to be ""born again""., and that is what you posted.

What if it’s your gospel that is false.....and you end up in the place where you send others?

Paul's Gospel isn't false, and of course a JW would believe its "false".
I only teach and preach Paul's Gospel.

This.... = ."we preach Christ Crucifed".... "Justificaton by Faith".. "without works, or deeds of the Law"...

Paul's Gospel is the "preaching of The Cross"...

You are a religiou cult member for a very long time, and you have no idea that this next verse is in the NT.

So, Read it carefully...and then refer back to what i just posted.
-

​

""""""For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.""""" New Living Translation For I decided that while I was with you I would forget everything except Jesus Christ, the one who was crucified. English Standard Version For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. Berean Standard Bible For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Berean Literal Bible For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him having been crucified. King James Bible For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. New King James Version For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. New American Standard Bible For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. NASB 1995 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. NASB 1977 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. Legacy Standard Bible For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. Amplified Bible for I made the decision to know nothing [that is, to forego philosophical or theological discussions regarding inconsequential things and opinions while] among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified [and the meaning of His redemptive, substitutionary death and His resurrection.

It’s not your job to be anyone’s judge.....

Its the Truth that is your Judge.
You'll find out.

The “hell” you are consigning people to is a satanic lie.....

Everyone who went to Hell today and yesterday and tomorrow, all believe in Hell now @Aunty Jane .

Its a shame that you gave so many years to a cult that blinded you to The Gospel, and to the end result of : John 3:36.

But you can't say you've never heard about it........as ive been telling you about it for months.

Your own teachings are satanic....based on fear, not love.

Hell is not designed to express God's Love.
Its designed to reveal God's judgment.