Do you believe the lie?

[Hiddenthings]

Why would I lie about that? It should be clear that I get my view from scripture since I am backing up everything I believe with scripture. I have no respect for you because instead of just discussing the scriptures, you have to try to act like I'm making things up, which I am not doing. Talk to me instead of your imaginary strawman.

From my perspective, it seems you admit to not fully understanding the history of your own belief, yet you also reject the foundation of Paul’s teaching in Philippians 2. It feels as if you’ve been told to accept this doctrine and have done so blindly, without any real questioning or investigation. Is this true?

 

[Aunty Jane]

You are brainwashed, so only the Holy Spirit who you deny can help you understand. I pray that He will.

Again, not a single point addressed…just this knee jerk, which is what people do when they have no defense…..Why not just address the questions? And if you cannot, just admit it….

Your interpretation of Phil 2:5-11 as it is mistranslated in some modern English Bibles, is a case in point.

Here it is from the ESV…

“Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

Now unpack it for what it really says, not what you imagine that it says…..read the rendering in other translations and see how it is translated.

All that follow the KJV in their translation read very differently. Just reading verses 5 and 6 in different translations, reveals bias towards a certain doctrine in all who follow KJV translators…..all were trinitarians.

See the difference….
”Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God“. (AKJV)

But….an alternative rendering is …
”Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped“. (ESV)

These translations contradict one another….one is saying that it wasn’t “robbery” to be equal with God…but many other popular translations like the ESV, RSV, ASV, NASB all render it..…that Jesus “did NOT count equality with God a thing to be grasped”….just the opposite…so what else are they messing up with bad translation?

We also have to ask what “form” God has, because John tells us that “God is a spirit”….so Jesus was a spirit too, before his earthly mission. All who inhabit the spirit realm are “spirits”.

We see the rest of that passage saying that Jesus was “obedient”…to whom is God obedient? To whom is God a servant? How does God exalt himself and then give himself an name higher that what he already has?
And in bowing the knee to Jesus, who is glorified? “God the Father”.

When you read Scripture, do you really comprehend what it is saying? Apparently you don’t, like so many others who assume that it says what it does not.

What if it’s you who is brainwashed? How would you know? Do all those confessing Jesus as “Lord” know that they are deceived? According to Jesus, the answer is NO! (Matt 7:21-23)

I ask questions because I know people don’t have those answers in Christendom….I used to be one of them….but not anymore. I studied God’s word very thoroughly until I got answers that had to harmonize with the rest of the Bible. There are now no contradictions in my faith to wonder about. But I always hope that seekers will at least check out the Scriptures offered, and consider the explanation. If it doesn’t resonate with them, then all well and good….our hearts are making decisions about God every day, and he will not interfere with our choices.….they are ours to make.

No one can ever say that God didn’t try to warn them….but like Noah, whose family were the sole survivors of their day…..and the first Christians, not many of the Jews were persuaded to believe them….because the majority treated them as ignorant fools…..heretics! (Matt 24:37-39)

Do you stumble at the messengers?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'll give you an example Spiritual of what I'm looking for so you not under any confusion like the above.

The Apostles understanding of Christ nature:

Since therefore the children (Spiritual) share in flesh and blood, he (Jesus) himself likewise partook of the same things

Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. Heb 2:17

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh. Romans 8:3

In both these sections not one mention of two natures only that Christ was 100% man.

Now I'm looking for a verse which supports your two natures.

You are completely ignoring what I'm saying. It makes having a reasonable discussion with you impossible. What you are trying to get me to do is ignore the verses which say Jesus is God and only focus on the ones that talk about His humanity. But, He is both God and man at the same time. You can't accept that, but that's your problem. It's what scripture clearly teaches.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

From my perspective, it seems you admit to not fully understanding the history of your own belief, yet you also reject the foundation of Paul’s teaching in Philippians 2. It feels as if you’ve been told to accept this doctrine and have done so blindly, without any real questioning or investigation. Is this true?

I've had it with your foolishness. No, that is not true at all. You continue to insist on arguing with your strawman instead of with me. I'm not interested in continuing to have to correct your nonsense and your misrepresentations of who I am and what I believe over and over again.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Again, not a single point addressed…

LOL. Ah, yes. If I don't address your points in one post, that means I never have, right? I have addressed MANY of your points and you just immediately dismiss them all. How does that motivate me to want to continue doing that? It doesn't. Why should I bother addressing points that you make while quoting English Bible translations with my own quotes from English Bible translations when you just say that what I'm quoting was mistranslated. What if I just said every time you quote scripture from an English translation that it was mistranslated? What would you think? Would you not think it was ridiculous and a total joke? Well, that's what I think of you when every response is that the scripture I'm quoting was mistranslated. Why should I bother trying to have a discussion when you are so unreasonable? It's a complete waste of time. You are deceived and need to repent of your denial of who Jesus is. He is God.

just this knee jerk, which is what people do when they have no defense…..Why not just address the questions? And if you cannot, just admit it….

Your interpretation of Phil 2:5-11 as it is mistranslated in some modern English Bibles, is a case in point.

There it is. This is mistranslated. That is mistranslated. Every verse that refutes your false doctrine is mistranslated, according to you. How can I take you seriously? It's impossible.

 

[Hiddenthings]

You are completely ignoring what I'm saying. It makes having a reasonable discussion with you impossible. What you are trying to get me to do is ignore the verses which say Jesus is God and only focus on the ones that talk about His humanity. But, He is both God and man at the same time. You can't accept that, but that's your problem. It's what scripture clearly teaches.

You are misrepresenting Paul's words as nowhere in Phil 2 are these words written.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I've had it with your foolishness. No, that is not true at all. You continue to insist on arguing with your strawman instead of with me. I'm not interested in continuing to have to correct your nonsense and your misrepresentations of who I am and what I believe over and over again.

This is how you’ve responded to my questions so far. What did you say about the councils and creeds, and you’ve openly dismissed Paul’s reasoning that draws from the Servant Prophecies in Isaiah. Given that, how else am I supposed to interpret your position?

 

[Hiddenthings]

There it is. This is mistranslated. That is mistranslated. Every verse that refutes your false doctrine is mistranslated, according to you. How can I take you seriously? It's impossible.

Just out of interest...do you believe that some verses in the Bible have been, or can be, mistranslated?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are misrepresenting Paul's words as nowhere in Phil 2 are these words written.

Yes, they are.

Philippians 2:5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

You deny clear scripture to your own shame. No amount of your twisting, contorting of scripture or your word salads can change what this scripture clearly says.

Or all of the other scriptures that you twist to fit your false doctrine.

John 8:58 Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is how you’ve responded to my questions so far. What did you say about the councils and creeds

I said I don't care about them and don't read them.

, and you’ve openly dismissed Paul’s reasoning that draws from the Servant Prophecies in Isaiah. Given that, how else am I supposed to interpret your position?

You openly dismiss Paul saying that Jesus was in His very nature God and was equal with God (Philippians 2:5-6). And you deny the scriptures which speak of Jesus as being God and being the One who created all things (John 1:3,14; Colossians 1:15-17).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Just out of interest...do you believe that some verses in the Bible have been, or can be, mistranslated?

A few verses, sure. But, none that completely change a major doctrine like we're talking about. But, why are you asking me this? Seems like a strange question for you to ask me after you were offended that I thought you believed all the verses that speak of Jesus being God were mistranslated like others who deny His deity like Aunty Jane. You insisted that your beliefs are not based on thinking that the verses we are discussing were mistranslated. Is that true or not?

 

[Aunty Jane]

If I don't address your points in one post, that means I never have, right?

I have yet to see you defend a single belief with any real understanding about what you are reading…
To get all bent out of shape over a lower case “s” when you should have known that Koine Greek had no upper or lower cases or punctuation…….if you were a true Bible student you would know these things….but because you use translations that agree with your doctrine, you seem unaware that not all translators get it right…..so how do you tell? What they say must agree with the rest of Scripture….unless you think that the Bible contradicts itself?

right? I have addressed MANY of your points and you just immediately dismiss them all. How does that motivate me to want to continue doing that?

You do not respond with any real understanding of the words or the context of the Scriptures you quote. How can I not dismiss what is not true?
Your motivation is not my problem….we are on a public forum and if you can’t stand the heat, then why are you here? These topics are about truth not emotions.

Why should I bother addressing points that you make while quoting English Bible translations with my own quotes from English Bible translations when you just say that what I'm quoting was mistranslated. What if I just said every time you quote scripture from an English translation that it was mistranslated? What would you think?

If they are mistranslated, wouldn’t you want to know? Wouldn’t you explore the topic and reinforce what you you believe, and prove your opponent wrong? There is no need for personal attacks which just make you look defeated.
If someone presents me with a challenge to my faith I am duty bound as Peter said to defend my beliefs with God’s word….not just my own opinion gleened from church theology and their cherry picked verses, but rather straight from the Bible, with other scripture that reinforces it. Is that not a reasonable expectation?

You are deceived and need to repent of your denial of who Jesus is. He is God.

What if it’s you who is deceived? Do you hold the majority view in the branch of Christianity you believe is the real one? How many branches are there? Do they all subscribe to the same beliefs? Does the Holy Spirit divide people or does one truth unite them?
The devil sowed a counterfeit “Christianity” many centuries ago, so that the majority view is based on the “weeds” he sowed, not the “wheat” sown by Jesus. The truth is held by a hated minority…..viewed in the same way that the first Christian were by the Jews. (Matt 7:13-14; John 15:18-21) The Christians were persecuted by those who supposedly worshipped the same God.…accused of being heretics!

Be careful, and “make sure of all things” as Paul told us to. (1Thess 5:21)
If there are contradictions in your beliefs, you are on the wrong track.

There it is. This is mistranslated. That is mistranslated. Every verse that refutes your false doctrine is mistranslated, according to you. How can I take you seriously? It's impossible.

I showed it to you in the other translations, but as usual, you double down and refuse to even consider the possibility that you are mistaken….your version contradicted the other translations…so who got it right? Was I using Bibles that no one has ever heard of?

Would you know a mistranslation if it jumped up and bit you? Seriously, I see this stiff necked attitude and wonder where your gained your beliefs? Who told you that they were correct? Have you ever done an honest evaluation to see if your beliefs are supported by the whole Bible?….it is one story, with one author who has one truth to tell…..the treasure is buried under what it has always been buried under……satanic lies designed to deceive….and what is the devil’s success rate? (1 John 5:19) Against those odds, there is a relatively small group of Christians who are united in a global brotherhood, who all believe one truth and among whom there is no dissension. (1Cor 1:10) These “few” are the only ones on the road to life. (Matt 7:13-14) Where is everyone else going?

The bigger the church, the less likely they are to teach the truth……the smaller they are means that they are less likely to be part of a global brotherhood. Christianity in these last days was to be international because the “good news of the Kingdom” was to be “preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations” before “the end” was to come…..(Matt 24:14) What “end” is this?

In order for those who are sent out to ‘preach this good news of the Kingdom’, (Matt 10:11-14) they first have to understand what God’s Kingdom is….what its purpose is….and what it will accomplish….

Can you at least address those questions?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Yes, they are.

Philippians 2:5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

You deny clear scripture to your own shame. No amount of your twisting, contorting of scripture or your word salads can change what this scripture clearly says.

Or all of the other scriptures that you twist to fit your false doctrine.

John 8:58 Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

No matter how large the font or bold the color, the text does not say Jesus is God. What it does say is that Jesus did not use his unique Sonship as a means to claim equality with God. Instead, he chose the path of humility and became a servant. God formed him as such, that through obedience—even to death—he would be declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead.

By the way do you favor that translation because you think its speaking to duality of natures?

Not only does it not say that Jesus is God, but the passage has nothing to do with Jesus’ physical nature, that topic is addressed separately by the apostles elsewhere in the Epistles. The context here is Servitude and Servant thinking "let this mind be in you..."

It’s becoming increasingly clear and somewhat unfortunate that instead of honestly engaging with the Word of God, you seem more focused on imposing doctrine onto the text rather than letting the text speak for itself.


To overlook this @Spiritual Israelite —and to deliberately ignore the clear and traceable path the Apostle Paul is laying out for you—is a level of willful ignorance I haven’t seen in quite some time.

 

[Hiddenthings]

A few verses, sure. But, none that completely change a major doctrine like we're talking about. But, why are you asking me this? Seems like a strange question for you to ask me after you were offended that I thought you believed all the verses that speak of Jesus being God were mistranslated like others who deny His deity like Aunty Jane. You insisted that your beliefs are not based on thinking that the verses we are discussing were mistranslated. Is that true or not?

You’ve brought it up a couple of times, and I understand that some people believe the entire Bible is infallible, with every word directly written by God without error. But from your responses, it’s clear you don’t hold that view.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Spiritual Israelite

Let me ask you again.

Where was the Apostle Paul's mind when penning the letter to the Philippians?

 

[PS95]

The word notion feels a bit weak, almost as if it downplays the thoughts and purposes of God. But yes, the Master was indeed in the Mind of God before the foundation of this age was laid.

I see, well I didn't just pull it out of thin air. Several Unitarians have used the words, notion, it, or plan when explaining their beliefs.
Do you believe that the Word of God who became flesh is Jesus?

 

[Hiddenthings]

I see, well I didn't just pull it out of thin air. Several Unitarians have used the words, notion, it, or plan when explaining their beliefs.
Do you believe that the Word of God who became flesh is Jesus?

The Word of God is the origin of all things, and everything concerning the Old Creation and the New Creation comes through Logos. If you are to become a saint, it is the Logos that will bring about that transformation. God's thought and intention of His Heart are expressed through the Logos, and while in this Creation (age) the Logos was revealed in a Son, it’s true that in previous Creations it was not. God's will is His alone, and it is made known through His Word. What I believe, PS95, is that this Creation is truly unique, unlike anything that came before it or will follow after.

 

[Zao is life]

You continue to include in your interpretation that "a man abide not in me" actually means, "a man stops abiding in me", and use that instead of the actual statement given.

I have too much love for the truth to do that. I must remain with "if a man not abide in me", which does not address whether or not such a man previously did.

Given the fact that this point is not specifically addressed by this passage, it is then an ambiguous passage, that is, could be interpretted in more than one way, or applied in more than one way. I think we are interpretting the passage the same, and are applying it differently.

That is, I apply it to those who never did, while you apply it to those who do, and may cease to do so.

Parallel passages and contextually relevant passages often supply the needed information by which we can determine which is actually meant.

I'm aware of a number of passages that would be false on their face if one who is regenerated ceases to be so, ceasing to remain in Christ. And again, I'm constrained by the truth, I cannot simply prefer one interpretation over another, I require the Scriptures to show the meaning,

And in every case, I find harmony throughout, as the regenerate are never lost, but remain with Christ.

Much love!

The fact that you keep repeating yourself saying that you "love the truth" when you assert YOUR truth makes me wonder if you are a JW, since that is their favorite saying? They will say, "We have the truth", "We know the truth", "We love the truth" - implying that whatever they say, is true, and anyone who disagrees with them "does not have the truth" and "does not love the truth".

I always assumed that you believe in the Trinity and that you believed that Jesus is God, the source of all life?

Correct me please if I'm wrong about what you believe because it seems that you do not believe that Jesus is God, the source of all life and do not believe in the Trinity, because not only does continually saying you "love the truth" imply that what you believe IS the truth and whoever disagrees is "wrong", but it also implies that when someone disagrees it's because he "does not love the truth like you do".

So at first I was trying to avoid putting things this way, but eventually I gave up. So now I will say it again, because your assertions force me to say it.

YOUR truth is what you love, but just because it's YOUR truth does not necessarily mean it's THE truth of what Jesus means in John 15:6.

Jesus Christ is the source of life. He gave us many examples from nature to illustrate what He means when He taught, like the example of living water. Water is something that you must continually drink of, or you will die of thirst. Jesus IS that living water of life.

--- I am the vine, ye are the branches. Abide in me, and I in you, because if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned, and as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. --- John 15:4-6 (verses rearranged).

It means to continually abide, or to choose not to abide. Scripture is full of confirmation of the above fact. For example, the word IF implies a condition: "IF thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Romans 10:9).

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:22).

"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister." (Colossians 1:21-23).

There are many times both Jesus and the apostles warn about people falling away from faith in Christ (which I'm not going to talk about, to shorten this post).

IMO you would understand these things and believe the words of Jesus and the examples from nature He gives to illustrate what He means, IF you were constrained to the truth as you claim to be.​

 

[Hiddenthings]

"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister." (Colossians 1:21-23).​

Seventeen centuries of doctrinal development have rendered the original Gospel unrecognizable to the majority of people. If Marks is coming out from among them follow his lead! If you believe the faith you hold today is the same as what was in Paul’s mind when he wrote Colossians, you would be seriously mistaken.

 

[Zao is life]

LOL. Did you not even read what I said? I'll post it again...


I said right here that I was honestly assuming things about what you said and I told you why. I was saying it was an honest mistake to assume that you believe the verses about Jesus being God are mistranslated because that is exactly what others who don't believe Jesus is God claim, such as Aunty Jane. So, why would you say I haven't admitted that I assumed something about what you said when that is exactly what I did?


Your comments like this are meaningless to me. You are not accepting what Paul clearly taught in Philippians 2:5-8 and you're trying to distract attention away from that.


LOL. You are not accepting what the text very plainly says. You're trying to distract from that. No other verses surrounding that passage say that Jesus is not God and that passage says that He is God. You just don't want to accept it.


LOL. Stop saying such foolish things. I am trying to talk about what it so clearly says in Philippians 2:5-8 and you would rather talk about anything else but that! A sure sign that you have something to hide! Your username seems very appropriate.


LOL. Let me make something very clear here. You have nothing to teach me about the truth. That is very obvious. Anyone who denies that Jesus is God despite the overwhelming scriptural evidence is not someone who I would ever trust to guide me toward the truth.

You must be used to deceiving people who just take your word for things. You can't fool me with your false teaching.


I am willing and that's why I know that Jesus is the Word and the Word is God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

I have an idea that @Hiddenthings may be a troll who's sole purpose being here is to troll. He does not seem to appreciate the scriptures too much. Nor does he make it clear what he believes regarding the foundational tenets of Christianity, or why he believes differently. On the other hand, he seems to love trolling people by just generally engaging in provocation with the remarks he makes, without explaining what he believes, or why.

See below what he says about the scriptures. Apparently he knows better than all the extant manuscripts used by scholars to translate the scriptures, believing that much of it is a hoax, as well as all church history and what the ECF's wrote being a hoax:​

Seventeen centuries of doctrinal development have rendered the original Gospel unrecognizable to the majority of people. If Marks is coming out from among them follow his lead! If you believe the faith you hold today is the same as what was in Paul’s mind when he wrote Colossians, you would be seriously mistaken.

It really does seem to me he's a troll who's only here to troll.