You are making the error of thinking that all who believe in God and have had an encounter with Christ are fully Christians. They are not until they have been delivered from the wiles of satan. They call themselves born again yet still sin.
Uncovering the Devil's Strategy
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Behold
Well-Known Member
The proof of becoming a Christian is not found by good works or posting verses on a "christian forum".
There is only one TRUE proof that a sinner has become the "Temple of the Holy Spirit, and that is.....that they have become "BORN.. Again".
Indeed, they have the HOLY Spirit dwelling within and not just aquainted with Him if indeed they have been baptized into Christ.
Many think that this has occurred but they have only been revealed the truth of it and Satan fools them into thinking that one can sin and be in Christ with whom there is no sin.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Many falsely believe that being water baptized is "to become a Christian".
Right now I'm reading the Secret of God's presence that Murray wrote. I also read it many years ago, but understand it better now. I gather that with Keswick it might have been that the flesh was handling something that was truth, as so often happens. Kind of making it into a compulsory "law" instead of being a matter of faith and growth voluntarily (not under compulsion)...? Often it seems that when a move of God happens, it's good for a while until the flesh starts to interfere with what God is doing.
Look forward to what further things you have to say about Andrew Murray's take on this subject.
A quick glance through the book of his that I have, has explained why I kept this one which I like the best as he is going through the subject in full rather than aspects of it.
It is a 30 day study with copious notes and is very good I think.
The way that Keswickian theology differs from the early years, is that it only follows early teaching so far. It stops at a second blessing whereas the early church had a third blessing. The rest is correct as far as serving in the flesh.
The three stages in the early church were Purgation (being convicted of ones walk which is not worthy of Christ as it is not in the power of the Holy Spirit). This is when the believer starts seeing that something more is needed.
Illumination is when the believer sees what being crucified with Christ really means and his part in it. It is depicted in the Transfiguration.
Then it is union with Christ when one is fully led by the Spirit so that he can obey fully. There is much suffering involved climbing this ladder.
Might it be a case of the "yes but not yet" of things? All things have been put under the feet of Jesus but we do not yet (necessarily) see all things put under. We are complete in Christ, in that His seed has been planted in the believer who has come to genuine faith and received Him......like Mary, "that which was conceived in her/us is of the Holy Spirit"...but it needs to grow as we grow into the full stature of Christ...until He is fully formed so that we "give birth" to Him (ie, manifest His likeness/nature).....?
I think we seem to follow the same pattern as our example the Israelites, in that we are being trained/tutored by the Law.....until perfection comes. We are learning that our self efforts are not enough to be able to fulfill the law.....so something more is needed.
Yes there is a period of learning that all our works are as filthy rags, and there is always something that spoils even the best of our attempts of obedience, a stain of imperfection that we cannot go beyond, and a pure heart must be formed in us when He is formed in us and we are entirely His.
I don't think that we are complete in Christ however until it is a reality. He gained it for us on the cross, and it is finished, in that it is there waiting for us to enter in when we believe the truth of it.
The devil however, always says 'tomorrow'. The bibles says 'today', so we can enter in as soon as this is revealed to a hungry heart.
One would have to understand the nature of religious institutions and why these are against growth in the truth.....one would have to understand spiritual warfare.
Sure. Entire denominations are based on this...Methodist, Salvation Army, Quakers, Nazarenes...etc. Most people don't have a drastic conversion...like Paul or myself ;) Most people come to a spiritual life in two steps...like the two water bodies that the Israelites had to cross. I am like a spy that was taken there right away. :)
Sorry...heard of him but not familiar with his teaching...
Amen, completely agree. Think that is what "Egypt" represents in one way....slaves/captives of religious institutions that try to get you making bricks without giving you the necessary straw.
I didn't know that. They all used to actually teach this? I've never heard it taught anywhere at all....it's like our generation has been living in a spiritual dark ages then, wow....worse than I thought.
Oh, I somehow didn't cotton on that your experience of this was immediate when you came to Christ .
ok, thanks.
@Hepzibah, @Lizbeth,
I never read anything by the author whom you have shared here, A Murray? All I know is that my flesh fails, and I accept it for what it is, in front of not only the world itself, but also in front of Yahavah, the God whom is good, and is merciful.
I'm personally reminded of in the Bible, in which it opens people up to living by and through the spirit in faith by actively choosing to abide in Jesus. Because without him, he stated to his disciples even then, they could do nothing.
Our flesh will never become perfect, and that is why even Jesus in his flesh gave up his life and died. He was the perfect living sacrifice without any belmish, giving up his life in order for all people to recieve life, through him, that would look towards him and on him, and they will be healed finding rest and contement for the soul, all while actively knowing the abilities and capabilities of our flesh, when intertwined with our God given soul, and the choices that we make from within our soul in which by the flesh we may act through the earthly means compared to the heavenly means.
I understand and I have read things by others concerning biblical matters founded within the Bible. However, when it comes down to certain aspects of understanding I do truly believe I got it down at least to around the diamond field of what is going on here.
The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, if that entered into Adam and Eve before ever even leaving the Garden, and the "temptation from their own desire to eat was partook," it shows that we actively make choices be it Good or Evil, but we can't do anything heavenly without abiding in the Lord Yeshua. That is an active, seeking, an action, foremade within the (soul) heart ,mind ,will, of a person whom is faithfully looking to Yahavah for help.
Does this mean their flesh doesn't continue to suffer, or perhaps the soul itself, has to make a decision not to make an action once not taken before, and can be abstained from forever perhaps by never turning back, however there are many aspects of actions and decisions to consider, no person in their flesh is perfect. They are only perfect in Christ, and Christ is the one working in and through them by the power of God, through the Spirit of Christ that now lives within the individual's heart. No matter their doubts or concerns, they continue to trust and look and ask the Father in heaven to help them by the Spirit as Jesus considers that his disciples were to seek in doing. Asking the Father in heaven for help by the holy spirit to not be so reliant on the world itself, though we live in it and must make decisions, and decide what to store up.
Store up heavenly things, or store up earthly things. While both are possible, the focus, should always be to look in faith towards Yahavah, and look at your weakness as chances for Jesus Christ to give his strength to overcome the temptations which come upon the mind which desires to cause hurt towards oneself, others, perhaps what one may decide hurts God and the relationship they have together.
As it has been said, yes it is a battle we struggle with our flesh and the spirit and they both fight amongst each other, but the more one is aware and accepting of themselves as they are, and that God loves them as they are, they may move more towards God and look towards him in helping them because of his love towards him. He gives each neighbor of ours life each and every day, and how one may feel about their neighbor could be harboring jealousy, hatred, or genuine love, consideration which I believe would only be able to be done by the Lord Yeshua within the,m which they themselves even give the credit to Yeshua.
Yeshua was the one whom was perfect in the flesh.
Our flesh will never be perfect. It's best to accept this now.
We can build the spiritual aspect of our spiritual person in Christ, to overcome things by building up faith, actively seeking God, and a relationship with him and fellowship with his son.
It's only because of Yeshua and his strength alone and his Father working in and through us, to create us for good works which are for God's pleasure. And not our own pleasure, even though there is nothing wrong with being confident and being proud of oneself for overcoming a certain thing, but let's not forget it's Yahavah, and his Son, whom help us through by the spirit of Christ and the holy spirit which resides in our soul (heart/mind/will), and we can find rest and contement by resting in Christ, for his yoke is easy, and burden is light.
I never read anything by the author whom you have shared here, A Murray? All I know is that my flesh fails, and I accept it for what it is, in front of not only the world itself, but also in front of Yahavah, the God whom is good, and is merciful.
I'm personally reminded of in the Bible, in which it opens people up to living by and through the spirit in faith by actively choosing to abide in Jesus. Because without him, he stated to his disciples even then, they could do nothing.
Our flesh will never become perfect, and that is why even Jesus in his flesh gave up his life and died. He was the perfect living sacrifice without any belmish, giving up his life in order for all people to recieve life, through him, that would look towards him and on him, and they will be healed finding rest and contement for the soul, all while actively knowing the abilities and capabilities of our flesh, when intertwined with our God given soul, and the choices that we make from within our soul in which by the flesh we may act through the earthly means compared to the heavenly means.
I understand and I have read things by others concerning biblical matters founded within the Bible. However, when it comes down to certain aspects of understanding I do truly believe I got it down at least to around the diamond field of what is going on here.
The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, if that entered into Adam and Eve before ever even leaving the Garden, and the "temptation from their own desire to eat was partook," it shows that we actively make choices be it Good or Evil, but we can't do anything heavenly without abiding in the Lord Yeshua. That is an active, seeking, an action, foremade within the (soul) heart ,mind ,will, of a person whom is faithfully looking to Yahavah for help.
Does this mean their flesh doesn't continue to suffer, or perhaps the soul itself, has to make a decision not to make an action once not taken before, and can be abstained from forever perhaps by never turning back, however there are many aspects of actions and decisions to consider, no person in their flesh is perfect. They are only perfect in Christ, and Christ is the one working in and through them by the power of God, through the Spirit of Christ that now lives within the individual's heart. No matter their doubts or concerns, they continue to trust and look and ask the Father in heaven to help them by the Spirit as Jesus considers that his disciples were to seek in doing. Asking the Father in heaven for help by the holy spirit to not be so reliant on the world itself, though we live in it and must make decisions, and decide what to store up.
Store up heavenly things, or store up earthly things. While both are possible, the focus, should always be to look in faith towards Yahavah, and look at your weakness as chances for Jesus Christ to give his strength to overcome the temptations which come upon the mind which desires to cause hurt towards oneself, others, perhaps what one may decide hurts God and the relationship they have together.
As it has been said, yes it is a battle we struggle with our flesh and the spirit and they both fight amongst each other, but the more one is aware and accepting of themselves as they are, and that God loves them as they are, they may move more towards God and look towards him in helping them because of his love towards him. He gives each neighbor of ours life each and every day, and how one may feel about their neighbor could be harboring jealousy, hatred, or genuine love, consideration which I believe would only be able to be done by the Lord Yeshua within the,m which they themselves even give the credit to Yeshua.
Yeshua was the one whom was perfect in the flesh.
Our flesh will never be perfect. It's best to accept this now.
We can build the spiritual aspect of our spiritual person in Christ, to overcome things by building up faith, actively seeking God, and a relationship with him and fellowship with his son.
It's only because of Yeshua and his strength alone and his Father working in and through us, to create us for good works which are for God's pleasure. And not our own pleasure, even though there is nothing wrong with being confident and being proud of oneself for overcoming a certain thing, but let's not forget it's Yahavah, and his Son, whom help us through by the spirit of Christ and the holy spirit which resides in our soul (heart/mind/will), and we can find rest and contement by resting in Christ, for his yoke is easy, and burden is light.
@MatthewG
It is true that flesh will never become perfect and that is why we must see it as crucified with Christ and dead to sin, the devil and the world.
Satan repeats to every soul, his early deception however, in telling a man that perfect obedience is not expected by God, who in truth gives the power for this through faith, and that a man has the ability to judge himself what is good or evil.
I will leave you the following texts that hopefully, you will ponder on, and pray that you will not become more entrenched in your views from discussing them.
List of Verses For Sinless Perfectionism (a.k.a. Entire Sanctification) in Scripture:
It is true that flesh will never become perfect and that is why we must see it as crucified with Christ and dead to sin, the devil and the world.
Satan repeats to every soul, his early deception however, in telling a man that perfect obedience is not expected by God, who in truth gives the power for this through faith, and that a man has the ability to judge himself what is good or evil.
I will leave you the following texts that hopefully, you will ponder on, and pray that you will not become more entrenched in your views from discussing them.
List of Verses For Sinless Perfectionism (a.k.a. Entire Sanctification) in Scripture:
- The 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God. For John says, “And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.” (Revelation 14:3-5).
- Enoch was translated and did not see death because he walked with the LORD and pleased GOD. For the author of Hebrews says, “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” (Hebrews 11:5); And Moses had written in the Torah, “And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.” (Genesis 5:24).
- Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).
- GOD says, “Be ye holy as I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16 cf. Leviticus 11:45).
- Jesus says, “If you want to be perfect sell your possessions and give them to the poor” (Matthew 19:21).
- We are told in Scripture that he [i.e. anyone] that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. For Peter says, “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;” (1 Peter 4:1).
- Paul says, “And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24).
- James says, “If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” (James 3:2).
- Paul says, “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (1 Corinthians 10:13).
- David says, “Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” (Psalms 119:11).
- Paul says, “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).
- Paul says, “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.” (Romans 6:12). John says, “sin not.” (1 John 2:1).
- Paul says, “For sin shall not have dominion over you.” (Romans 6:14).
- Paul says, “Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans NLT). Jesus says, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. (John 8:34). John says he that sins is of the devil (1 John 3:8).
- Paul says, “You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.” (Romans 6:18 NIV).
- Paul says, “For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.” (Romans 6:20 BLB). Paul also says, “But now that you have been freed from sin and have become God's slaves, the benefit you reap is sanctification, and the result is eternal life.” (Romans 6:22 ISV).
- Peter says, “there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14). This is similar to those who are lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of GOD (1 Timothy 3:1-9). For he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him (1 John 2:4).
- Jesus says, “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” (Matthew 26:41). What is the point of watching and praying so as not to be led into temptation if you are going to inevitably sin again?
- Paul says “Be ye angry, and sin not:” (Ephesians 4:26).
- John says, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9-10)
- John says,“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” (1 John 5:4). John also says, “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” (1 John 2:16). For John says, “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” (1 John 2:15).
- Paul says, “Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).
- The author of Hebrews says, “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).
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I agree that we are to use the story of the Israelites as our example, and the three stage theology is in line with this.
They were already followers and worshippers of Almighty God and during their journey fell captive to the law as we do when once having an encounter with the living God, we begin to start relying on the flesh to please God, not understanding the way of righteousness . That is unless we have succumbed to the wiles of the devil who tells us that God never sees our sins again.
We must learn that we need to be delivered from that taskmaster and cross like them, the Red Sea into the wanderings in the wilderness.
They wandered for 40 years yet the straight line distance would have been accomplished in 10 days if I remember rightly before reaching the promised land.
So that is three states for the children of God before the promised land, a land promised for this life not heaven as some suppose.
Indeed these are dark days. The holiness denominations grew out of the Holiness Movement that swept America and indeed they taught a later baptism of the Spirit which later Pentecostals said was for power and not the emphasis of the holiness churches on holiness being the result.
One of the reasons that holiness teaching on entire sanctification fell into disrepute, I believe, is due to the error of mistaking the second blessing for the finished work as far as purity is concerned.
This is known as Illumination in the early church and Orthodoxy, whereby one has the truth revealed, and one is able to overcome sin to a certain degree, but is not the goal which comes later if one continues seeking.
So we had many claiming they were perfect and did not sin, but their unintentional sins were clearly seen by their critics, who delighted in this in order to make fun of them.
The last time that second blessing teaching was clearly taught, to my knowledge, was in the 40's and 50's at The Faith Mission Edinburgh Scotland at a missionary college, leading to revivals, where only those who had the second blessing were allowed to be sent out.
Thank you for your response, Hepzibah. While I admonish you for your encouragement, the idea of my flesh ever becoming perfected is just silly. There is only one a person doesn't miss the mark right? That is allowing Yeshua, to be that mark for themselves.
I get that from childhood - to adulthood to Paul the aspect is putting childish things away most certainly. Everyone is at their own willingness to do so much, there are many people whom have done evil, and yet still believe in the Lord Jesus. While consequences land you in positions which are capable to be placed upon one by Law, can always leave a person in trouble and marks on their own catalog of life lived here on earth.
Becoming dead to sin, we would have to exit the world wouldn't we? Because the world itself is still full of sin anyway if Jesus never took away sin to begin with. Sins aren't something I harp on as much as some people will, there are consequences and people know what they are, and some people know what the consequence is when it comes to becoming Chasten by Yahavah, whom loves his Children in order for them to bear in making right choices which are lead by the spirit rather than that of the flesh.
The devil, Idk where he is doing anything, though many people suppose he is still around doing things... I believe that darkness and light exist, and even in the Heavenly Kingdom, there will be darkness outside of the kingdom, and I just don't believe anyone telling me that they are sinless and perfect by and through the flesh is just nonsense.
The only credit to be given would be to God, and his Son, whom when they work and come through us by the Holy Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, always causes heavenly good works which are pleasing to Yahavah while looking towards him in faith.
Good luck to all those who suggest they can be come perfect in the flesh, by all means, reel in every single thought that produces some type of hurt or evil towards others, in which they can be filtered in love and mercy, and revolving around in truth rather than anything which is false.
It did seem though, the bride which was taken, was spotless, blameless, and without belmish, and those were all because of Yeshua within those people whom were rescued once he had come and put a stop to the devil and all the nonsense going on in Israel at least it's something I faithfully believe.
I was hoping a bit more of a response on some of the things I said, but who knows if they were quite understandable. :)
I am sorry you were disappointed @MatthewG but I was already in conversation with @Lizbeth when you came along to challenge the ancient doctrine that was very much alive and kicking amongst the disciples of the apostles, and which has at various times, been difficult to find in the church but still stands as God's standard of holiness.
No we would not and Adam was an example of man who could walk the earth without sin, until he fell. He did die once he sinned but that was meant spiritually as his physical death did not occur at that point.
Christ came to restore man to that position and a higher plane even, as that of a holy man and not just an innocent one.
Your little snide remark shows me that you are coming to debate with a hard heart with no desire to understand a position you have clearly never studied, having no interest in it, and therefore to join in with you would be futile.
Amen, I agree that our flesh and flesh nature of the old man will never be perfect, which is why we are instructed not to walk in it or sow to it, but reckon it dead. Easier said than done at times. But I believe there is a time or season to be encouraged and a time or season to be the opposite, because the bible says if we would judge ourselves we will not be judged with the world. I think there is a need in general to guard against complacency and keep running the race in earnest, so as to win it. We're living in a kind of uncomfortable tension between the "yes but not yet" meanwhile, depicted by the Israelites in the wilderness not having yet crossed over into the land of promise.
The imagery of a wedding feast and bride I believe is about the complete surrender of our life to the Lord to become a living sacrifice - completely giving Him the reins and rule of our life, lock stock and barrel, as opposed to just giving Him bits and pieces of ourselves and our life as we feel like it, which in truth really means we (self) are still on the throne ruling and holding the reins....still just betrothed in a dating phase, but not yet united with the Groom and consummating the relationship, not yet fully giving ourselves and belonging to Him. I used to assume that the parable of the 10 virgins was for after death, but I feel sure now that that and a lot of other things in scripture are possible for this life.
Yes, and the church still gets made fun of....deservedly so all too often, in my opinion. But maybe some of these ones were mistaking an emotional experience for a genuine spiritual one....? I seem to have noticed at times, when the flesh gets hold of certain truths there is a kind of pressure to "conform" resulting in something not genuinely of the Holy Spirit.
Well I'm glad for those who have looked into this, I had no idea it had ever been a fairly prevalent kind of understanding in the church.....I'm late to the game.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Actually to become dead to sin, as a Chrisitan, is simply to understand why you are....and from this understanding, freedom from the flesh is found.
And not until.
See, you just posted that you can't be free from your flesh, and here is what Paul says..
""""God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein ??"""
So, you are still quite a ways from understanding what it means to have become born agian, as a "new Creation" "in Christ".
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Easy to be done once we are walking in the Spirit, when our power and strength comes from Him. And it comes when we see that it has already been done and faith in that enables it. All it needs is a drastic submission of the whole of ourselves.
The not yet is simply caused by lack of faith in what Christ has achieved for us.
Amen.
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