Premillennialism contradicts scripture (1 Corinthians 15:50-54) by having mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.

[WPM]

The end of the Gentiles ruling. (Dan. 7: 27. Luke 21: 24)

That is a total twisting of truth and reality.

Solomon declared in Ecclesiastes 3:11: “He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning [Heb. rô'sh] to the end [Heb. sôph].”

No one would think of interpreting this in any other way but it’s plain straightforward translation: the beginning is the beginning and the end is the end. These two highlighted Hebrew words contrast two completely diverse events, one relating to the commencement of creation and the other to the conclusion. So, these two Hebrew words (rô'sh and sôph) cover 2 contrasting and diverse events.

Isaiah 46:9-10 uses two other Hebrew words that are more commonly used in the Old Testament. The text reads: “I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end [Heb. achărı̂yth] from the beginning [Heb. rê'shı̂yth], and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying.”

The Hebrew word rê'shı̂yth here means: first, beginning, best, or chief. This is the word used in Genesis 1:1. The Hebrew antithesis to this is achărı̂yth meaning: end (issue or event), or hindermost.

This contrast is extremely useful in that it gives us a sense of the two completely contrasting events – with two divergent realities. It also supplies us with two suitable Hebrew words for the same.

It is the same in the New Testament. Jesus teaches in Revelation 22:6: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning [Gr. archē] and the end [Gr. telos].”

Jesus said in Revelation 22:13: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning [Gr. archē] and the end [Gr. telos], the first [Gr. protos] and the last [Gr. eschatos].”

It is not hard to grasp the import of this teaching. Firstly, Alpha (Α or α) and omega (Ω or ω) are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. These sum up Jesus. Also, to we are told that Christ is “the beginning and the end.” Again, it is not hard to get our heads round this. He is from start to finish.

The two words that are used in the New Testament to describe Christ and describe the start and finish of this current temporal state of time are archē meaning “beginning” and telos meaning “end.” They are the antithesis of each other.

• The word archē basically means the origin or the commencement.
• The word telos means the termination, completion or that by which a thing is finished.

Notably, the Bible continually relates this phrase “the end” [Gr. telos] to the second coming. The Lord’s return is shown to usher in the completion of time and the end of this current corrupt earth.

The Greek word eschatos means last, farthest, final, end or uttermost.

It is where we get the word theological term eschatology, which describes what we are doing tonight – it means the study of end-times or final things.

 

[WPM]

Jesus is behind the `veil` in the Holy of Holies with the Father interceding for us. (Heb. 6: 19 & 20. 7: 25. 8: 1 & 2)

He is reigning on high over His new creation and all creation. Read the numerous texts you skipped around. You belittle His kingship. You strip Him of His authority.You constantly dethrone Christ and exalt Satan in your teaching bringing shame on the name of our sovereign king. You unseat Him from the right hand of glory. You exalt the power of Satan. You make the devil King and Lord of the affairs of life and man. You ignore Scripture after Scripture that refutes your error. This is heresy.

 

[WPM]

Mal. 3: 16

LOL. And what has this to do with what we are talking about? What does this prove?

This is typical dispensationalism. It is a total misrepresentation of Scripture.

 

[WPM]

Because God said that they (a representative) needs to go and give worship to God and then be taught the ways of God. The people in the millennium do not have the Holy Spirit within like we do. They are of the nations, NOT being formed into a Body.

You should write your own Bible. You make it up as you go. Where in Revelation 20 or elsewhere does it say that "the people in the millennium do not have the Holy Spirit within like we do. They are of the nations, NOT being formed into a Body"?

 

[Marilyn C]

• The word telos means the termination, completion or that by which a thing is finished.

And `by which a thing is finished.` As God`s word says that after `those at His coming,` then He `puts down all rule and all authority and power for He must reign TILL he has put all enemies under His feet.` (1 Cor. 15: 23 & 24)

A PROCESS.

 

[Marilyn C]

He is reigning on high over His new creation and all creation. Read the numerous texts you skipped around. You belittle His kingship. You strip Him of His authority.You constantly dethrone Christ and exalt Satan in your teaching bringing shame on the name of our sovereign king. You unseat Him from the right hand of glory. You exalt the power of Satan. You make the devil King and Lord of the affairs of life and man. You ignore Scripture after Scripture that refutes your error. This is heresy.

And Hebrews?

BTW I have noted that those who cannot substantiate their view resort to `you this, and you that,` trying to put the person down instead of discussing scripture.

 

[Marilyn C]

LOL. And what has this to do with what we are talking about? What does this prove?

This is typical dispensationalism. It is a total misrepresentation of Scripture.

God knows who are His in Israel.

 

[Marilyn C]

You should write your own Bible. You make it up as you go. Where in Revelation 20 or elsewhere does it say that "the people in the millennium do not have the Holy Spirit within like we do. They are of the nations, NOT being formed into a Body"?

There YOU go again trying to put the person down instead of discussing scripture.

The Holy Spirit, the restrainer is removed from building the Body and then comes the judgments. Those in the millennium are of the nations, Zech. 14: 16 and they certainly are not `set` in the Body by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 12: 18) The Body of Christ is CALLED OUT of the nations and of Israel.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because God said that they (a representative) needs to go and give worship to God and then be taught the ways of God. The people in the millennium do not have the Holy Spirit within like we do. They are of the nations, NOT being formed into a Body.

Because God said so is not a valid reason. I'm asking what the purpose of that would be, knowing they can be taught the ways of God by reading the Bible wherever they are and that they can worship Him in spirit and in truth wherever they are. No need to go to Jerusalem to worship God or be taught the ways of God.

Do you see anywhere in the following passage where Jesus said that one day what He says here will no longer be true in terms of God wanting people to worship Him in spirit and in truth without having to go to the mountain in Jerusalem to worship Him?

John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I don't see anywhere here where Jesus said that one day God would require people to go to Jerusalem to worship Him again instead of Him requiring people to worship Him in spirit and in truth, do you?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, we know that the Lord has all power now however, God`s word tells us that that before `those who are Christ's at His coming` He is behind the veil, with the Father interceding for us. (Heb. 6: 19 & 20. 7: 25. 8: 1 & 2)

I don't know what your point is here as it relates to what I said. Can you be more specific?

 

[WPM]

So, we take your word and NOT the Greek meaning which God wrote.

Out of 42 occurrences of telos in the KJV, it is translated "end" 34 times.

Mat 10:22, Mat 24:6, Mat 24:13-14 (2), Mat 26:58, Mar 3:26, Mar 13:7, Mar 13:13, Luk 1:33, Luk 21:9, Luk 22:37, Joh 13:1, Rom 6:21-22 (2), Rom 10:4, 1Co 1:8, 1Co 15:24, 2Co 3:13 (2), 2Co 11:15, Php 3:19, 1Ti 1:5, Heb 3:6, Heb 3:14, Heb 6:8, Heb 6:11, Heb 7:3, Jas 5:11, 1Pe 1:9, 1Pe 4:7, 1Pe 4:17, Rev 2:26, Rev 21:6, Rev 22:13

It is interpreted "ending" once.

Rev 1:8

It is interpreted "ends" once.

1Co 10:11

It is interpreted "finally" once.

1Pe 3:8

It is interpreted "uttermost" once.

1Th 2:16

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at His coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

This couldn't be clearer to the unindoctrinated mind unpolluted by Dispensatanism. The "coming" of the Lord is the definite point or goal in view here.

Here you have it: “all rule and all authority and power” are “put down” at “Christ’s … Coming.” It is that simple, and that clear. There is no mention or suggestion of some imaginary future millennium after the second coming. This text forbids that. Those who take a clear, objective and literal straightforward reading of this text will see that it spells the end of all rebellion. However, this is the opposite to the Premil millennium: which has more wicked and more enemies arising and culminates in the greatest uprising in human history – as the wicked, against the saints of God “as the sand of the sea.”

 

[WPM]

And Hebrews?

BTW I have noted that those who cannot substantiate their view resort to `you this, and you that,` trying to put the person down instead of discussing scripture.

He is reigning in Hebrews. Where is He not?

 

[WPM]

There YOU go again trying to put the person down instead of discussing scripture.

The Holy Spirit, the restrainer is removed from building the Body and then comes the judgments. Those in the millennium are of the nations, Zech. 14: 16 and they certainly are not `set` in the Body by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 12: 18) The Body of Christ is CALLED OUT of the nations and of Israel.

Where in Revelation 20 or elsewhere does it say that "the people in the millennium do not have the Holy Spirit within like we do. They are of the nations, NOT being formed into a Body"?

 

[WPM]

There YOU go again trying to put the person down instead of discussing scripture.

The Holy Spirit, the restrainer is removed from building the Body and then comes the judgments. Those in the millennium are of the nations, and they certainly are not `set` in the Body by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 12: 18) The Body of Christ is CALLED OUT of the nations and of Israel.

Stop avoiding! Where in Zech. 14: 16 or 1 Cor. 12: 18 or elsewhere does it say that "the people in the millennium do not have the Holy Spirit within like we do. They are of the nations, NOT being formed into a Body"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am persistent. Your insult is noted.

Yes. I ask you to prove your interpretation is correct.

Of course we do. In my view, when Jesus is ruling on earth, we will be able to see it, hear it, touch it, and witness it. In your view, you are allowed to pretend.

Where is your evidence that he gave his permission? You make a lot of claims about reality that aren't real.

No, he wasn't. Paul said he wasn't. Anyone who reads the book of Genesis can see that he wasn't ruling over anyone. If he was, then he had no excuse for destroying the world.

Again, where is your proof that "allowing" evil is the same thing as ruling over it?

How can you not understand that nothing happens without God allowing it to happen? What "God" do you believe in who isn't in total control where nothing can happen that is out of His control to the point where He can't even intervene if He wants to?

Do you think God just created the heavens and the earth and then stepped back and let everything happen as it may? Clearly not, right? He has intervened in the affairs of the world many times.

But, He doesn't control everything that happens like a puppet master. But, nothing happens that is out of His control. Do you think otherwise? Is the God you believe in not all powerful? If you believe He is, then why can't you understand that even when He allows things to happen, He is still in charge and is ruling over all things? I don't know why you can't understand such a simple concept.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where in Revelation 20 or elsewhere does it say that "the people in the millennium do not have the Holy Spirit within like we do. They are of the nations, NOT being formed into a Body"?

That is not taught anywhere, of course. She makes up a lot of things that are not taught anywhere in scripture.

 

[Marilyn C]

Because God said so is not a valid reason. I'm asking what the purpose of that would be, knowing they can be taught the ways of God by reading the Bible wherever they are and that they can worship Him in spirit and in truth wherever they are. No need to go to Jerusalem to worship God or be taught the ways of God.

Do you see anywhere in the following passage where Jesus said that one day what He says here will no longer be true in terms of God wanting people to worship Him in spirit and in truth without having to go to the mountain in Jerusalem to worship Him?

John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I don't see anywhere here where Jesus said that one day God would require people to go to Jerusalem to worship Him again instead of Him requiring people to worship Him in spirit and in truth, do you?

Jesus is part of the Godhead and He wrote His Word.

`And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.` (Zech. 14: 16)

`Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the LORD`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and the peoples shall flow to it. Many nations shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways. And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion the law shall go forth, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.` (Micah. 4: 1 & 2)

You read God`s word yet you have not learned to be polite when talking to others.

`And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth. ` (2 Tim. 2: 24 & 25)

If people do have a Bible they will still need teachers to teach them. And that is what the priests in Israel will do. (Ez. 44: 15, 23 & 24)

As to `worship in Spirit and Truth.` We are blessed to do that, but those of the nations are not `born again` believers. They will be taught the ways of the LORD and they need to obey otherwise the Lord`s rod of iron will descend. (Zech. 14: 17 - 19)

 

[Marilyn C]

That is not taught anywhere, of course. She makes up a lot of things that are not taught anywhere in scripture.

You read God`s word yet you have not learned to be polite when talking to others.

`And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth. ` (2 Tim. 2: 24 & 25)

 

[Marilyn C]

Stop avoiding! Where in Zech. 14: 16 or 1 Cor. 12: 18 or elsewhere does it say that "the people in the millennium do not have the Holy Spirit within like we do. They are of the nations, NOT being formed into a Body"?

`But now God has set the members each one of them in the Body just as He pleased.` (1 Cor. 12: 18)

`For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one Body - whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free - and have all been made to drink into the one Spirit. ` (1 Cor. 12: 13)

The Ekklesia are the called-out ones from Israel and the nations. In the millennium there are only Israel and the nations, no Body of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus is part of the Godhead and He wrote His Word.

`And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.` (Zech. 14: 16)

`Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the LORD`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and the peoples shall flow to it. Many nations shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways. And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion the law shall go forth, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.` (Micah. 4: 1 & 2)

You read God`s word yet you have not learned to be polite when talking to others.

I'm not going to sugarcoat things when you are blatantly twisting the word of God the way you do like when you try to say the kingdom of God is a different kingdom than the kingdom of heaven despite those terms being used interchangeably in scripture. And the way you do when you try to say that the day of the Lord, the day of Christ and the day of God are all different days despite those phrases being used interchangeably in scripture.. You need to stop twisting the word of God like that.

`And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth. ` (2 Tim. 2: 24 & 25)

That passage is talking about how we should treat those who are not saved. Notice it talks about them repenting and coming to know the truth. But, when a fellow believer is blatantly twisting scripture, we have every right to rebuke that person sharply because they should know better.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.

Titus 1:12 One of Crete’s own prophets has said it: “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.” 13 This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14 and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the merely human commands of those who reject the truth.

Titus 2:15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

If people do have a Bible they will still need teachers to teach them. And that is what the priests in Israel will do. (Ez. 44: 15, 23 & 24)

Why would there only be teachers in Israel?

As to `worship in Spirit and Truth.` We are blessed to do that, but those of the nations are not `born again` believers. They will be taught the ways of the LORD and they need to obey otherwise the Lord`s rod of iron will descend. (Zech. 14: 17 - 19)

You are doing nothing to show any reason why anyone would need to go to Jerusalem in the future to do things that can be done anywhere. You have God inexplicably deciding in the future that He has changed His mind and decided that people again will have to go to Jerusalem to worship Him rather than worshiping Him in spirit and in truth as Jesus said He wants people to do (John 4:19-24). You interpretation of Zechariah 14:16-19 contradicts John 4:19-24. And, the idea of animal sacrifices being reinstated contradicts Hebrews 8-10 and, really, the entire New Testament.