Premillennialism contradicts scripture (1 Corinthians 15:50-54) by having mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.

[CadyandZoe]

You can't drop the subject because we're talking about whether or not Jesus rules over the earth. God has always ruled over the earth, so if you say Jesus is God then that means He rules over the earth since that is what God does.

I couldn't access the Christianity board yesterday, so I am catching up today. I explained this for you in an earlier post, but perhaps it bears repeating here. God purposely sent Jesus to the Earth to live as a human being, but unlike other human beings, Jesus was the perfect image of God. John refers to Jesus as "the Word became flesh" and "the exegesis of God." He records the words of Jesus when he tells Philip, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."

Earlier, I pointed out that Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God, making the divine understandable through human experience. The Gospel of John often emphasizes that seeing Jesus is seeing the Father, highlighting his role as the perfect expression of God's nature. His life, teachings, compassion, and sacrifice serve as a tangible demonstration of God's character.

God's purpose is that we should understand him through his human son, Jesus Christ. His humanity is the critical and essential aspect of his role as "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." Therefore, we understand Jesus' sovereignty through the lens of his humanity. He taught us that he was going away to a "far country" to receive a kingdom.

For this to be true, and we both believe it is, then we must temporarily suspend the notion that Jesus has a divine nature. Jesus wants us to understand his kingship and his reign in human terms. He already had all authority due to his divine nature. As such, He didn't need to go away to a far country to receive a kingdom. By nature, he already had it. But it is God's will that we understand Jesus' kingship in terms of his humanity. For this reason, he physically ascended, and he physically went to a far country to receive a kingdom, and he will physically return to establish that kingdom on Earth.

We both agree that Jesus is currently ruling over his followers, but we must acknowledge that, since it is the will of God that we understand his sovereignty through the lens of his humanity, we were taught that the Holy Spirit mediates his sovereignty over our hearts. Those who belong to Christ are those who have been born again, born from above.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No, he did not:

John 1
45 Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the law, and the prophets also wrote about - Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."
46 Nathanael replied, "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" Philip replied, "Come and see."

47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him and exclaimed, "Look, a true Israelite in whom there is no deceit!"
48 Nathanael asked him, "How do you know me?" Jesus replied, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you."
49 Nathanael answered him, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel!"
50 Jesus said to him, "Because I told you that I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You will see greater things than these."
51 He continued, "I tell all of you the solemn truth - you will see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."​

God is a Spirit and God is omnipresent. The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ.

Unfortunately, John doesn't say how Jesus was able to see Nathanael under the tree. So we can't know from this passage that Jesus was omnipresent.

The passage I had in mind is the account of the healing of the centurion's son. In that account, the centurion sent word to Jesus, asking him to heal his son. Jesus agreed to come to the centurion's location. The centurion told Jesus that he needn't bother because he realized that, just as the centurion tells one to come and the other to go, Jesus can do likewise.

The Roman centurion's insight into Jesus is remarkable, especially in moments where others might have missed the significance. One of the most striking examples is in Matthew 8, where the centurion humbly acknowledges Jesus' authority, saying that just as he commands his soldiers, Jesus has the power to heal with just a word. His deep understanding of Jesus' divine authority moves Jesus himself, who praises his faith as greater than any found in Israel.

Jesus typically visited a sick person to heal them, and he was willing to visit the son of the centurion. However, Jesus and the centurion understood that power and authority are mediated through soldiers or servants. We can see from the account of the centurion that His visit was not necessary to heal the sick. So why did Jesus visit the sick?

Jesus valued personal connection, often touching the afflicted, speaking words of comfort, and showing compassion in a way that went beyond the miracle itself. His presence with the sick and suffering reinforced the truth that God is near to those in pain.

Jesus often emphasized that faith was central to receiving healing, and his physical presence helped nurture that faith. Many of his miracles weren’t just demonstrations of divine power; they were invitations for people to trust in God more deeply. Jesus didn't need to visit the son of the centurion because, according to Jesus, the centurion already had great faith.

I raised this example to show that Jesus' healing miracles were mediated by servants, who were likely angelic beings. Just as the centurion had the authority to command soldiers, Jesus had the authority to command angels.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You make things up as you go that are totally contrary to royal kingship, authority, power and ruling in Scripture. I have addressed this but you continue to avoid it. There's nowhere in Scripture that suggests that there will be any subduing of Christ's enemy until He returns. Then He will destroy them in full.

God's rule over His enemies never suggests total wholesale allegiance. It just suggests that He is in total control. He causes and permits what He wishes. None can thwart His purposes. What He wills happens, what, He refuses doesn't happen.

I understand your reluctance to consider that you may have been wrong all this time. I get that.

 

[WPM]

I understand your reluctance to consider that you may have been wrong all this time. I get that.

LOL. This is more noise. You are wanting me to deny plain repeated Scripture, which you are always ducking around and explaining away. I don't think so! No chance! This thread is a testimony to the fact that you are fighting with Scripture.

 

[WPM]

Do you believe that Christ “is the head of all principality and power” (Colossians 2:10)?
Yes, he was always the head of all principality and power.

When are “angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him,” (1 Peter 3:22 says) now or in the age to come?
They were always subject to him.

When was/does Christ become ruler over the kings of the earth, now only or also in the future (Revelation 1:5)?
In the future. Having power and using power are two different things. Jesus had command of Angels when he walked the Earth. He chose not to use that power to save himself from the cross.

When does Christ reign? After His enemies are subdued or until His enemies are subdued (1 Corinthians 15:25-28)?
Christ is not reigning yet. He will sit at the right hand of the Father until God subdues his enemies.

1 Corinthians 15:25-28 and Ephesians 1:20-23 tells us that Christ “hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet” and Hebrews 1:8 tells us that “thou hast put all things in subjection’ (aorist active indicative) under his feet.” How could anyone therefore deny He is sovereignly reigning now over His enemies now? How could anyone then relate this fulfilment to an alleged future age after the second coming?
To understand these passages, we would need to review them in context. The answer to your question is to focus on Jesus' role as the Word of God, who has been given "belief" authority. Paul wrote epistles like Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, and Hebrews during a time when other "authorities" were drawing early believers away from Jesus. Some of these early believers were accepting the teaching of the Jewish religious authorities over the teachings of Jesus and his Apostles. Paul disputes their teaching, pointing out that Jesus is far above any other religious authority, attempting to draw a Jesus follower away from Jesus and put them under their jurisdiction.

When did/does Christ become the ruler of God’s creation (Revelation 3:14)?
This verse speaks to Jesus' role as the faithful and true witness. As God's witness, Jesus is "the beginning" meaning that all other things that might be said about God, must follow directly or logically from Jesus.

Do you believe that Jesus has already spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it (the cross)" (Colossians 2:115)?
Yes. But again, Paul isn't talking about political authorities in that context, he is talking about religious authorities, specifically the scribes and Pharisees. Jesus triumphed over them when God raised him from the dead.

Do you believe that Christ currently “openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth" (Revelation 3:7)?
Yes, this speaks directly to his role as "the beginning", "the Word", the head of all religious authorities, the primary spokesperson for God.

He does not have to wait until He returns to earth to manifest and enforce his authority. He does that now. He is king now. He exercises divine power now. He holds all authority now. He rules over all creation now. He reigns over His enemies now. Everything is under His feet now.

• 1 Timothy 1:17 describes Christ as “the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God.”
• Hebrews 1:3 tells us that Jesus is currently “upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.”
• 1 Timothy 6:15 declares the supreme authority and exalted power of Christ, stating, “I give thee charge in the sight of God ... and before Christ Jesus ... who is the blessed and only Potentate [Gr. dunastes meaning mighty ruler or great authority], the King of kings, and Lord of lords.”
• Jesus testified in Matthew 28:18 that “All power [Gr. exousia or right, privilege and authority] is given unto me in heaven and in earth.” How much more power or authority can He possess than all power and authority?
• Jesus testified in John 5:26-27: “[God] hath given him [Jesus] authority [Gr. exousia or right, privilege and authority] to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.”
• Jesus is a ruler [Gr. archon] who rules. Acts 5:30-31 confirms: “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus ... Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince [Gr. archon or ruler] and a Saviour.” Rules over what? Over all creation (Revelation 3:14). He is majestic, supreme and unchallenged in His power and authority, ruling over all creation.
• Christ “is the head of all principality and power” (Colossians 2:10).
• Ephesians 1:20 tells us that God hath “raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion."
• The “angels and authorities and powers [are] being made subject unto him,” (1 Peter 3:22 says) now.
• Christ is ruler over the kings of the earth now (Revelation 1:5).
• Christ reigns over all His enemies now and will finally subdue them when He returns (1 Corinthians 15:25-28).
• 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 and Ephesians 1:20-23 tells us that Christ “hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet.”
• Jesus has spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it (the cross)" (Colossians 2:115).
• Hebrews 1:8 tells us that “thou hast put all things in subjection’ (aorist active indicative) under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him." There you have it!
• Christ currently “openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth" (Revelation 3:7).

Christ is a sovereign king exercising divine power ruling over all! You have no answer for all this. It destroys your small-jesus / BIG DEVIL Premil thesis.

 

[WPM]

I understand your reluctance to consider that you may have been wrong all this time. I get that.

1. Do you believe "The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all” (Psalm 103:19)?
2. Do you believe “the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men” (Daniel 4:17, 25 and 32)?
3. Do you believe that God “worketh all things after the counsel of his own will” (Ephesians 1:11)?
4. Do you believe “it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13).
5. Do believe that none “can hinder him" (Job 11:10)?
6. Do you believe that Jesus is currently “upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high” (Hebrews 1:3)?
7. Do you believe “none can stay his (God's) hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?” (Daniel 4:35)?
8. Do you believe that "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Proverbs 16:4)?
9. Talking about the wicked, do you believe "God has put it into their hearts (the wicked) to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled” (Revelation 17:17)?
10. Do you believe that "the wrath of man shall praise" God and that "the remainder of wrath" He will "restrain” (Psalms 76:10)?
11. Do you believe that "Even for this same purpose" has God "raised" Pharaoh up that He might shew forth His "power" and that His "name might be declared throughout all the earth” (Romans 9:17)?
12. Do you believe that Christ will have “mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth” (Romans 9:18)?
13. Do you believe “He putteth down one and setteth up another” (Psalm 75:7).
14. Do you believe that "the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" (Jeremiah 10:23)."
15. Do you believe that "The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will” (Proverbs 21:1)?
16. Do you believe that God "frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish” (Isaiah 44:24-25)?
17. Do you believe that "God resisteth the proud" (James 4:6)?

 

[WPM]

Do you believe that Christ “is the head of all principality and power” (Colossians 2:10)?
Yes, he was always the head of all principality and power.

When are “angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him,” (1 Peter 3:22 says) now or in the age to come?
They were always subject to him.

When was/does Christ become ruler over the kings of the earth, now only or also in the future (Revelation 1:5)?
In the future. Having power and using power are two different things. Jesus had command of Angels when he walked the Earth. He chose not to use that power to save himself from the cross.

When does Christ reign? After His enemies are subdued or until His enemies are subdued (1 Corinthians 15:25-28)?
Christ is not reigning yet. He will sit at the right hand of the Father until God subdues his enemies.

1 Corinthians 15:25-28 and Ephesians 1:20-23 tells us that Christ “hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet” and Hebrews 1:8 tells us that “thou hast put all things in subjection’ (aorist active indicative) under his feet.” How could anyone therefore deny He is sovereignly reigning now over His enemies now? How could anyone then relate this fulfilment to an alleged future age after the second coming?
To understand these passages, we would need to review them in context. The answer to your question is to focus on Jesus' role as the Word of God, who has been given "belief" authority. Paul wrote epistles like Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, and Hebrews during a time when other "authorities" were drawing early believers away from Jesus. Some of these early believers were accepting the teaching of the Jewish religious authorities over the teachings of Jesus and his Apostles. Paul disputes their teaching, pointing out that Jesus is far above any other religious authority, attempting to draw a Jesus follower away from Jesus and put them under their jurisdiction.

When did/does Christ become the ruler of God’s creation (Revelation 3:14)?
This verse speaks to Jesus' role as the faithful and true witness. As God's witness, Jesus is "the beginning" meaning that all other things that might be said about God, must follow directly or logically from Jesus.

Do you believe that Jesus has already spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it (the cross)" (Colossians 2:115)?
Yes. But again, Paul isn't talking about political authorities in that context, he is talking about religious authorities, specifically the scribes and Pharisees. Jesus triumphed over them when God raised him from the dead.

Do you believe that Christ currently “openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth" (Revelation 3:7)?
Yes, this speaks directly to his role as "the beginning", "the Word", the head of all religious authorities, the primary spokesperson for God.

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Without a doubt, Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Bro, he ignores absolutely every Scripture text that forbids his doctrine. That is his modus operandi. That is his pattern. As he continually does: i presented clear explicit Scripture and he ducked around it. He prefers his heresy to the truth of God.

Have I? I don't think I have done that. You can't just skip to the end. You need to do the work. You can't just simply quote a verse taken out of context and say, "SEE?" You first need to understand the verse within its immediate context; only then will you be in a position to connect the passage to the point you are making.

Of course we are dealing with mysteries but I believe Christ is both man and God.

That phrase can mean a few things depending on the context! In a biblical or theological sense, someone "dealing in mysteries" might be engaging with divine truths that are beyond full human understanding, like the nature of God, salvation, or the spiritual realm.

But if you are teaching a mystery, then at least some part of it must be accessible to human understanding, even if not fully grasped. Knowledge tends to build upon itself, layering insights over time. What was once mysterious can sometimes become clearer as people develop new ways of thinking, analyzing, and experiencing the world. However, you seem comfortable allowing it to remain unknowable, even as you persecute others who wish to explore it more deeply.

Some might argue that labeling something a "mystery" is a way to avoid explanation when reasoning falls short. If a mystery is simply a secret—something hidden but ultimately knowable—then it’s just a matter of discovery or revelation. But if a mystery is something inherently beyond human comprehension, it remains unresolved no matter how much effort is put into understanding it.

But why persecute someone for not acknowledging something that you don't understand and is beyond comprehension?

As a man He is limited to a physical body, but as God I believe His influence, presence and power are limitless.

John said that Jesus is the Word become flesh. As such, he is limited to his human existence. Otherwise, his human experience is meaningless. Jesus is not Clark Kent, able to leap tall buildings on a single bound at a moment's notice. That is Superman disguised as Clark Kent. Jesus is not God in a man suit. He is the Word become flesh, and we are to understand God through the lens of his humanity.

 

[CadyandZoe]

1. Do you believe "The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all” (Psalm 103:19)?
2. Do you believe “the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men” (Daniel 4:17, 25 and 32)?
3. Do you believe that God “worketh all things after the counsel of his own will” (Ephesians 1:11)?
4. Do believe that none “can hinder him" (Job 11:10)?
5. Do you believe “none can stay his (God's) hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?” (Daniel 4:35)?
6. Do you believe that "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Proverbs 16:4)?
7. Talking about the wicked, do you believe "God has put it into their hearts (the wicked) to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.”Revelation 17:17).
8. Do you believe that "the wrath of man shall praise" God and that "the remainder of wrath" He will "restrain” (Psalms 76:10)?
9. Do you believe that "Even for this same purpose" has God "raised" Pharaoh up that He might shew forth His "power" and that His "name might be declared throughout all the earth” (Romans 9:17)?
10. Do you believe that Christ will have “mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth” (Romans 9:18)?
11. Do you believe “He putteth down one and setteth up another” (Psalm 75:7).
12. Do you believe that "the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" (Jeremiah 10:23)."
13. Do you believe that "The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will” (Proverbs 21:1)?
14. Do you believe that " it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Phil 2:13)?
15. Do you believe that God "frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish” (Isaiah 44:24-25)?
16. Do you believe that "God resisteth the proud" (James 4:6)?

What did I say about taking single verses out of context?

 

[CadyandZoe]

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Without a doubt, Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.

I already answered this. Since Christ is in heaven, sitting at the right hand of God, he is among friends. He is not among enemies.

 

[CadyandZoe]

According to him we're supposedly lacking in humility and grace because we don't sugarcoat heresy. Unbelievable. I guess he must be offended by the way Jesus talked to the Pharisees and scribes in Matthew 23?

I understand your strategy. You and WPM prefer to engage in a discussion about each other rather than addressing the actual arguments. You choose to shift the debate away from the issue at hand and focus on discrediting your opponents.

 

[WPM]

Have I? I don't think I have done that. You can't just skip to the end. You need to do the work. You can't just simply quote a verse taken out of context and say, "SEE?" You first need to understand the verse within its immediate context; only then will you be in a position to connect the passage to the point you are making.

That phrase can mean a few things depending on the context! In a biblical or theological sense, someone "dealing in mysteries" might be engaging with divine truths that are beyond full human understanding, like the nature of God, salvation, or the spiritual realm.

But if you are teaching a mystery, then at least some part of it must be accessible to human understanding, even if not fully grasped. Knowledge tends to build upon itself, layering insights over time. What was once mysterious can sometimes become clearer as people develop new ways of thinking, analyzing, and experiencing the world. However, you seem comfortable allowing it to remain unknowable, even as you persecute others who wish to explore it more deeply.

Some might argue that labeling something a "mystery" is a way to avoid explanation when reasoning falls short. If a mystery is simply a secret—something hidden but ultimately knowable—then it’s just a matter of discovery or revelation. But if a mystery is something inherently beyond human comprehension, it remains unresolved no matter how much effort is put into understanding it.

But why persecute someone for not acknowledging something that you don't understand and is beyond comprehension?


John said that Jesus is the Word become flesh. As such, he is limited to his human existence. Otherwise, his human experience is meaningless. Jesus is not Clark Kent, able to leap tall buildings on a single bound at a moment's notice. That is Superman disguised as Clark Kent. Jesus is not God in a man suit. He is the Word become flesh, and we are to understand God through the lens of his humanity.

How many times are you going to talk around the biblical evidence? This is the third time I've percent of this.

He might not be with you on earth, but He is with me and the redeemed on earth. He is physically ruling in heaven right now at the right hand of majesty. He is spiritually ruling on earth right now in the hearts of His people.

Whilst Christ physical sits enthroned “at the right hand of the Father” in the heavenly domain in His humanity He is not limited to one geographical place. Spiritually, as God, He enjoys all the same omnipresence qualities as the Father and the Spirit. Ephesians 4:10 tells us: “He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens (speaking undeniably about Jesus), that he might fill all things.”

This is confirming how in His divinity there is no limit to Christ’s presence

His human body is in heaven but His divine presence can be found everywhere. What was veiled on earth in human flesh is now revealed in all its glory now as God of very God. Ephesians 1:22-23 tells us: “And hath put all things under his (Christ’s) feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”

In a physical human sense He has departed but in a spiritual sense He is still here. Of course these things are mysteries. Whilst I accept a question mark could be placed over Ephesians 1:22-23 whether it is referring exclusively to the Church or whether is referring to all creation (being the context is Him filling the Church), Ephesians 4:10 reveals Christ filling all things in a divine sense. Both prove that He is not limited to one place. His human body is in heaven but His divine nature is present everywhere. What was veiled on earth in human flesh is now revealed in all its glory now as God of very God.

Let us establish an absolute fact: Jesus (being divine) fills all things.

Jesus reassured His followers in Matthew 28:20: “lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”

He also said in Matthew 18:20, “For where two or three are gathered together in my Name, there Am I in the midst of them.”

Of course we are dealing with mysteries but I believe Christ is both man and God. As a man He is limited to a physical body, but as God I believe His influence, presence and power are limitless. When it says (and it does explicitly and repeatedly) that Christ is in us I take that to be a spiritual reality. Let’s be honest we are dealing with God.

Of course Christ was speaking here in a spiritual sense.

He was referring to His Omnipresent nature as God. He was not talking about the actual location of His glorified physical body.

Jesus predicted in John 14:20 “In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.”

Jesus explained in John 14:23, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.”

Paul said in 2 Corinthians 13:5, “Jesus Christ is in you.” By embracing Him in salvation, sinners enter into union with God and become one with Him.

Galatians 3:27 says, “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

In Colossians 1:27 Paul sums up this great truth by telling believers, it is “Christ in you, the hope of glory.”

Romans 8:10 says, "But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness"

Galatians 2:20 says: "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me"

Ephesians 3:17 says: “that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.”

You do believe there is only one Christ? You do believe this is talking about the same Jesus that walked the streets of Jerusalem?

Those who deny Christ’s omnipresence contend that these passages simply mean that Jesus is present “by His Spirit.” In other words: Jesus is not really in us, in our midst, or filling all things – as it says. The Holy Spirit is doing that in His Name. They equate this to the job of an ambassador. The only problem is: those verses do not say that Jesus is present “by His Spirit!” They just say Jesus is present!

 

[Doug]

Notice here that "the righteous" who are represented by "the sheep" inherit "eternal life" in the kingdom of God prepared since the creation of the world. Since they are inheriting eternal life, that means they must have immortal bodies since only those with immortal bodies could inherit eternal life. And, again, Paul clearly taught that only those with immortal bodies can inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul is talking about the heavenly kingdom. The church, the body of Christ, will be changed to have a new body and will be in heaven.

In Matthew the kingdom of heaven is the prophetic Davidic kingdom on earth given to the little flock, the believing remnant of Israel. The believers will enter in mortal bodies along with the Gentile nations that blessed Israel in the tribulation. The old testament saints and the believers who were killed in the tribulation will be raised to enter the kingdom on earth.

 

[WPM]

I already answered this. Since Christ is in heaven, sitting at the right hand of God, he is among friends. He is not among enemies.

No! You ducked around the obvious. Who is He subjecting to His sovereign will? His elect in heaven? I don't think so. This is another invention of yours that carries no biblical support. He is (rather) reigning with them over His enemies today as sovereign king. The text makes clear: "angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him” (1 Peter 3:22). There is no explaining this away, as you do to support your error. This will be ongoing until the last trump.

He is subjecting His enemies now to His control. He is hands on. He is active in the affairs of man. You cannot squeeze out of the multiple passages that refute your theology. That is why you avoid or try to explain away so much plain Scripture.

You make man and Satan sovereign, doing as they wish, as Christ watches on helplessly and impotently from a powerless position on His throne, when in fact Scriptures teaches the opposite.

 

[PinSeeker]

According to him we're supposedly lacking in humility and grace because we don't sugarcoat heresy.

You mean because you don't condone or accept heresy? That's not it... <smile>

Unbelievable. I guess he must be offended by the way Jesus talked to the Pharisees and scribes in Matthew 23?

I'm certainly not "offended" by anything, but I am, as I said, often astounded by the manner in which some (supposed) Christians speak to others, whether or not they are Christians.

Aside from that, to what you say here about the way Jesus talked to the Pharisees and scribes in Matthew 23, we know that Jesus is God, and we know that God is love, right? And we also know that Jesus never sinned, right? So what does that tell you about what He said and how He said it, whether it was to the Pharisees or anyone else? And so then how does that compare to how... some posters here... speak to other posters here? <smile>

At any rate, to all this... you're not Jesus. <smile> None of us is, of course. <smile> All I'm saying is, hey, do what you want, but I say you guys really should quit being so... self-righteous... holier than thou, really <smile> ...and, well, condescending, condemning, and mean-spirited, even in the face of heresy. That's what I mean by lacking in humility and grace. It's about bearing good fruit, the fruit of the Spirit ~ love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control ~ and keeping in step with the Spirit (Galatians 5), which of course is ~ would be, anyway ~ the outward evidence of, you know, being an actual believer in and follower of Jesus. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[WPM]

self-righteous... holier than thou, really <smile> ...and, well, condescending,

Jesus rebuked heretics firmly - a lot firmer than many of us are doing. While we all fall short, you should private message anyone you think needs to dial it down. You have chosen the public high chair. You talk cryptic. You joke and smile at heresy. That is wrong!

While I felt i was unfair to Marilyn, but she was acting in a very weird and uncharacteristic way, I apologized.

 

[PinSeeker]

Jesus rebuked heretics firmly - a lot firmer than many of us are doing.

You're missing the point. Points, actually.

Grace and peace to you, WPM.

While we all fall short, you should private message anyone you think needs to dial it down.

Why? Because you don't think anyone should be publically rebuked? Is that not being a bit hypocritical?

You have chosen the public high chair.

Hmmm, well, okay, so have you. We should all take the high road, yeah? But even so, not doing so in a... self-righteous and/or condemning way. Right?

You talk cryptic.

I have been anything but "cryptic." I'm not even sure what you mean by that, but no matter.

You joke and smile at heresy.

Absolutely not.

While I felt i was unfair to Marilyn, but she was acting in a very weird and uncharacteristic way, I apologized.

Okay, so in preface to what I'm about to say, these are just my thoughts on this, and you can dismiss them if you want, certainly:

• Hmm, she was "acting in a very weird and uncharacteristic way" ~ which was merely your opinion ~ so you were then justified in being "unfair" to her?
• Anyway, apologizing... I mean, that's a step in the right direction, I guess. Actually, though, I would question the apology itself, really, because you said something to the effect of, "If I offended you, then I apologize." Why not just acknowledge what you did... and then apologize? Like, "Hey, Marilyn, I was unfair to you, and for that I apologize." That would be an actual apology, right?

Again, though, all that is beside the point I was originally making. And... I'm really not rebuking anyone. My point was and is ~ and this is directed at all of us, me included ~ quoting Paul in 1 Corinthians 13, "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal... Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful..."

Grace and peace to you, WPM.

 

[WPM]

You're missing the point. Points, actually.

Grace and peace to you, WPM.

Why? Because you don't think anyone should be publically rebuked? Is that not being a bit hypocritical?


Hmmm, well, okay, so have you. We should all take the high road, yeah? But even so, not doing so in a... self-righteous and/or condemning way. Right?


I have been anything but "cryptic." I'm not even sure what you mean by that, but no matter.


Absolutely not.


Okay, so in preface to what I'm about to say, these are just my thoughts on this, and you can dismiss them if you want, certainly:

• Hmm, she was "acting in a very weird and uncharacteristic way" ~ which was merely your opinion ~ so you were then justified in being "unfair" to her?
• Anyway, apologizing... I mean, that's a step in the right direction, I guess. Actually, though, I would question the apology itself, really, because you said something to the effect of, "If I offended you, then I apologize." Why not just acknowledge what you did... and then apologize? Like, "Hey, Marilyn, I was unfair to you, and for that I apologize." That would be an actual apology, right?

Again, though, all that is beside the point I was originally making. And... I'm really not rebuking anyone. My point was and is ~ and this is directed at all of us, me included ~ quoting Paul in 1 Corinthians 13, "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal... Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful..."

Grace and peace to you, WPM.

Hey, I'm not going to get into a debate with you. I apologized. She accepted that. It matters little what you think about that. I know it was genuine, so does God. You are not God. Your accusations truly seem like projection. You are describing yourself: "self-righteous... holier than thou, really <smile> ...and, well, condescending."

You want to rebuke the brethren, yet you joke (smile) and refuse to challenge heresy here. I find that double standards. Why would we take anything you say serious after that?

 

[PinSeeker]

Hey, I'm not going to get into a debate with you.

Okay, well, yeah, me either; there is no debate here. What is there to debate between you and me?

I apologized. She accepted that.

Okay, fine. All good, yeah?

It matters little what you think about that.

Well, not to make this about me in any way, but I was just offering a little exhortation, really. If we're going to claim to be Christians, then maybe we should act like Christians, right? Even on a message board... <chuckles>

I know it was genuine, so does God.

Fair enough.

You are not God.

No, I'm certainly not. <smile>

Your accusations...

Are not accusations.

truly seem like projection.

Things are not always as they may seem...

You are describing yourself: "self-righteous... holier than thou, really <smile> ...and, well, condescending."

Hmmm, well not here, but I have been guilty of that from time to time, sure.

You want to rebuke the brethren...

I literally just said I wasn't rebuking anybody.

, yet you joke (smile) and refuse to challenge heresy here.

I'm not joking about anything, nor am I refusing to challenge anything. I'm not even entering into that... "conversation."

I find that double standards.

None present.

Why would we take anything you say serious after that?

After... what?

<sigh> Grace and peace to you, WPM.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The scriptures you chose are excellent choices to see the point John and Paul want to make about the incarnation. Here, in the first chapter of John's gospel, we understand that Jesus is the Word made flesh, and he dwelt among us in the flesh. John also points out that Jesus is the "exegesis" of God, meaning that Jesus models God to us through his humanity. Jesus makes God relatable to us. We understand God much better since the Word was made flesh.

Do you believe that Jesus, the Word, was God and created all things, as John says in John 1?

Here, the Apostle Paul makes a similar point concerning the relationship between God, who is invisible, and Jesus, who is the visible image of God. Jesus is God translated into a human life, as John said, and Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God, as Paul said.

For this reason, to understand what the Bible says about Jesus' role as the King of Israel and ultimately the King of all the Earth, we do well to remember to interpret Jesus in light of his humanity. He taught us that he would go away (physically) to a far country (heaven) to receive a kingdom. And that he would reward his followers when he returns (physically).

He didn't receive a kingdom only to not be able to rule over it for at least 2,000 years. He will reward His followers according to what they have done for His kingdom and church the past almost 2,000 years under His rule.