I don't need to be polite when you are just making things up that are not taught anywhere in scripture. There is no excuse for you to do that and I don't need to sugarcoat that. You are the one in the wrong here.
Premillennialism contradicts scripture (1 Corinthians 15:50-54) by having mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.
- Thread starter Spiritual Israelite
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What scripture teaches that there is no body of Christ in the millennium? You keep making all kinds of claims despite having no clear scripture to back any of them up. And, you wonder why WPM and I get frustrated with you?
I don`t think our discussion is benefiting anyone. So, let`s leave it at that.
If you would just be willing to be straightforward, we could have a good discussion, but you are very evasive instead. You never give straightforward answers.
I think I do. It is just that we believe two different millennium views. I think you say we come back and rule there whereas I believe the Body of Christ is in glory ruling.
This is all personal opinion. You cannot support any of your claims. That is because they are extra-biblical.
Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the Bible does it teach that "in the millennium there are only Israel and the nations, no Body of Christ"?
I will not hold my breath for an answer to this. You make it up as you go. Your theology is fantasy. It cannot be found in God's Book.
Psalm 110:2 does not say what you claim. Where in Revelation 20 (or anywhere else) teaches that "God the Father will rule through God the Son and establish a theocracy"?
`And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.` (Zech. 14: 16)
`Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the LORD`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and the peoples shall flow to it. Many nations shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways. And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion the law shall go forth, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.` (Micah. 4: 1 & 2)
I wrote these scriptures in #517. YOu must have missed them.
So if you believe that the Body of Christ is in the millennium on earth, please can you give me the scriptures?
The Godhead (3 persons) - are equal, in unity and of the same mind. In function the Father initiates, the Son administers, and the Holy Spirit empowers.
eg. For God so loved the world He gave His only Son...(John 3: 16)
In the beginning God created the heavens and earth. (Gen. 1: 1) And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. (Gen. 1: 2)
God has...spoken to us by His Son....through whom He made the worlds. (Heb. 1: 2)
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
To understand a parable, we first understand the story on its own terms. I quoted the opening lines of the parable so that there would be no mistake. His parable is clearly a story about a nobleman who goes to a far country to receive a kingdom and what he does upon his return. This story is not about accepting Christ. His story is about rewarding his servants.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
So far, we have seen the weakness of the Amillennial position. It can't answer why we don't see Jesus at work and in charge in the world today. It doesn't understand the distinction between receiving a kingdom and securing a kingdom.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
As I argued earlier, answering a question with a question is not a form of avoidance. The main reasons why someone answers a question with a question are: Encouraging more profound thought, Buying Time, Redirecting the conversation, and Social dynamics.
@Spiritual Israelite and I were engaged in a conversation about the Ascension, and he asked me what Jesus is doing there in heaven. From my perspective, no one can know what Jesus is doing. Who can know such things? We only know what Jesus told us about the purpose of his Ascension, which is to go away to a "far country" to receive a kingdom.
He illustrated this concept using a historical parable. Herod the Great went to Rome to receive the kingdom of Judea. While I am unsure of the specific actions he took in Rome, he successfully completed the necessary official procedures to obtain his kingdom. Upon returning to Judea, Herod ruled over the Jewish people as King of Judea.
In a parallel manner, just as Herod went to Rome, Jesus ascended to heaven. Just as Herod received his kingdom and authority in Rome, Jesus obtained His kingdom and authority in heaven. Additionally, just as Herod established his rule over Judea after his return, Jesus will establish His rule over the Earth upon His return.
The point is, since @Spiritual Israelite and I were discussing Jesus' parable and Herod, the answer to "what is Jesus doing in heaven" is almost parallel to what Herod was doing in Rome. Herod secured Roman support and Jesus secured Heavenly Support. However, that looked.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I explained my reasons and did not raise the issue of Christ's deity. You and @Spiritual Israelite responded with scriptures that proved Christ has been granted authority, but neither of you addressed the issue of His deity.
Raising the issue of Christ's deity is a non-sequitur and has nothing to do with the subject at hand. But since you are so fond of that subject, let's review this topic.
Earlier, in another post, we talked about the orthodox Christian view that Christ has inherent authority due to his divine nature. That idea is central to Christian theology—Christ's authority is intrinsic rather than acquired. Unlike earthly rulers, who establish their power through political means, military force, or strategic alliances, Christ's authority is understood to come from his divine nature and his role as the Son of God.
If we grant this as being true, for the sake of discussion, then what can we conclude from this? If Jesus had inherent authority due to his divine nature, why did he need to be granted authority? If a person already has ultimate authority, there is no need to grant them authority they already possess. If someone has inherent authority, meaning it is intrinsic to their nature, they don’t need authority to be granted in the way that an external ruler or official would. The idea that the Father granted Jesus authority can seem paradoxical if one assumes that He inherently possessed divine authority. The rational basis for this, especially in Christian thought, lies in the relationship between Christ’s divine nature and His incarnate mission.
And that brings us back to his human nature. It’s one of the profound aspects of Christianity—while Christ’s divine nature is central, our understanding of His mission, teachings, and redemption is deeply tied to His human nature.
His humanity makes His authority, suffering, and victory relatable to us. If He were only divine and untouched by human experience, concepts like obedience, sacrifice, and resurrection might feel distant or abstract. But because He took on flesh, lived among us, and walked the path of suffering and glorification, we can grasp the depths of His love and His role as the true Mediator.
Contrary to your view that I can't understand our faith based on my view of his deity, it is Jesus' human experience that provides the lens through which we comprehend divine truths.
There was no mention of the millennium here. He force that into the text. Where is all the main tenets of Premillennialism here? Nowhere. The reality is we're already in Revelation 20.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The first point follows from the second. The logical implication of the Lord's absence is reflected in the attitude of the servants while their master is away. Since he is not present, this situation creates a temptation for the servants, who may not work as hard as they should.
The Holy Spirit is different than the Spirit of Christ. Jesus tells his disciples that he will send another comforter. According to John, Jesus is a "paraclete" (advocate). Jesus says that he is sending another "paraclete" after he leaves. Logically, Jesus is referring to one more, additional, or different "paraclete."
Yes. We discussed earlier the temptation that servants experience when the Lord is absent from their manner, who may not work as hard as they should. The Lord must be present to rule over his manner unless he leaves someone in charge while he is gone. A Christian is being led by the Holy Spirit, while Jesus is absent.
You have been misinformed and perhaps misled by the emotional appeal of folk Christianity. In that view, Jesus is the answer to loneliness, insecurity, a sense of belonging, and affirmation. Are you lonely? Ask Jesus into your heart. Do you need a friend? Develop a relationship with Jesus. Do you have doubts? Call upon Jesus.
When Jesus was going away, this was his comfort to them.
John 14:1-3 Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
John 14:1-3 assumes that Jesus will be absent from His disciples for a time. His words prepare them for His departure—not just in terms of His death and resurrection, but His Ascension to the Father. He reassures them that His absence isn’t abandonment; rather, He is going ahead to prepare a place for them.
You misunderstand what Paul meant. Rather than just adopting a mindset, believers are led by the Spirit, which shapes their entire orientation toward God, not just intellectually, but in their desires and actions. This attitude aligns with Christ’s own submission to the Father’s will, as seen in Luke 22:42, where Jesus prays, "Not my will, but Yours be done."
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Jesus frequently answered questions with another question, often to challenge assumptions or provoke deeper thought. One well-known example is in Matthew 15:2-3:
- The Pharisees ask, “Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
- Jesus responds, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?”
My direct answer, if you insist, is to say that no one knows what he is doing right now. Jesus understood the distinction between a sovereignty that is acquired and a sovereignty that is manifested. Jesus ascended to sit at the right hand of his Father to acquire his kingdom; he will return later to manifest his kingdom.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
This is your chance to defend your position with some reasons. Saying that something is true doesn't make it true. Saying that I am inventing a theory doesn't mean that I am.
Jesus told a parable based on historical events. This is a fact that anyone can verify for themselves. During the time of Jesus, it was customary for a nobleman to secure his kingship by traveling to Rome, where the Roman Senate would officially grant him the title of King.
In the case of Jesus, he secured his kingship by traveling up to heaven, where the Father officially granted him the title of King. When he returns, He will remain subordinate to the Father and manifest his kingship on the Earth, rewarding his followers and defeating his enemies.
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