Premillennialism contradicts scripture (1 Corinthians 15:50-54) by having mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sitting at the right hand of the Father.

What do you think that means? Do you think that means He is literally just sitting down in heaven? Do you think He is doing anything significant right now or mainly just waiting for His chance to use the authority He was given almost 2,000 years ago?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You avoided every point I made. This is how you engage. All you have is your opinions. You seem incapable of exegeting any scriptural passage properly.

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
Mat 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
Mat 21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants (the Old Testament prophets), and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Mat 21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first (more Old Testament prophets): and they did unto them likewise.
Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son (Christ Jesus), saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him (Calvary).
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Mat 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
Mat 21:46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

The meaning of this parable is very clear. The disciples grasped it easily. Those that have eyes to see and ears to hear will grasp it. This is teaching about the approaching day of reckoning for man. It all concludes at the coming of Jesus Christ. This is when the righteous are rewarded and the wicked are punished. It is the end. The coming of the Lord is a climatic event. There's no space for your imaginary future millennium. It is all in your head.

This final event sees the wicked judged and destroyed. They are then cast into the lake of fire.

Agree. Cady said the parable "is not about accepting Christ", yet it clearly shows what will happen to those who accept Him and to those who reject Him ("the stone which the builders rejected"). I wonder if he even read the whole parable?

 

[CadyandZoe]

This comparison of Herod to Jesus is ridiculous. Herod did not dwell in the hearts of his followers. Herod didn't have all power in heaven and earth with the ability to do anything he wanted anywhere at any time like Jesus does. If you understood that Jesus is God like Christians do, then you would not have so much trouble understanding how Jesus can rule over the earth even while bodily being in heaven. He is not just a man, but is also God.

You misunderstand. I am not comparing Herod to Jesus directly. Herod is an example of a nobleman who went away to a far country to receive a kingdom.

Consider how Jesus skillfully employs a narrative rooted in familiar, everyday occurrences to illustrate a profound abstract principle. The parable of the minas draws upon historical events and cultural references that resonate with his audience, intertwining their shared experiences with deeper spiritual insights. This approach not only makes his teachings more relatable but also encourages listeners to reflect on their own lives through the lens of the story.

His audience would be familiar with Herod's trip to Rome, where he sought a kingdom and was officially granted it while he was there. And they would also know that Herod waited until he returned to enforce his authority.

Jesus likens that to his own experience. He will ascend up to the right hand of the Father to officially accept his authority, awaiting the day, after his return, to rule among his enemies.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You misunderstand. I am not comparing Herod to Jesus directly.

You misunderstand. I am not saying you are comparing them directly. But, I am saying it's not a valid comparison since Jesus is not just a man like Herod was.

Herod is an example of a nobleman who went away to a far country to receive a kingdom.

Consider how Jesus skillfully employs a narrative rooted in familiar, everyday occurrences to illustrate a profound abstract principle. The parable of the minas draws upon historical events and cultural references that resonate with his audience, intertwining their shared experiences with deeper spiritual insights. This approach not only makes his teachings more relatable but also encourages listeners to reflect on their own lives through the lens of the story.

His audience would be familiar with Herod's trip to Rome, where he sought a kingdom and was officially granted it while he was there. And they would also know that Herod waited until he returned to enforce his authority.

Jesus likens that to his own experience. He will ascend up to the right hand of the Father to officially accept his authority, awaiting the day, after his return, to rule among his enemies.

Your belief that Jesus is confined to His body and is not also God makes it impossible for us to continue talking about this because your false religion prevents you from understanding that Jesus is everywhere all at once and directly affects things on earth through His people that He spiritually dwells in. And, as God, He can intervene in the affairs of the world or in people's lives any time He wants. Nothing happens without Him allowing it to happen.

To discuss this further, without repeating things we've already said, would require us to debate whether Jesus is God or not and I know you don't want to do that. You think the thread would be closed if we did that, but I know it would not. But, I know you don't want to debate that here, regardless.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No, He did not frequently do that.

He did it, though. Right? I showed you that he did it.

There is no reason whatsoever that you couldn't have just answered my question.

I did answer your question.

Christians know exactly what He is doing right now because He is not just a man, but also is God.

How does his nature enable Christians to perceive what He is doing in heaven? Do they wear special glasses? Is that it?

He is dwelling in people's hearts right now showing them how He wants them to live and leading them to follow His commands and giving people the strength to lead others to salvation.

Make up your mind. Jesus is either in heaven or in people's hearts. Which is it?

You clearly have no understanding of verses like these...

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

I understand what Jesus means, and I can explain it to you. Jesus is not referring to a physical location where one might have a bedroom on the same floor as him. To abide in Jesus means to remain committed to his teachings and to continue following his guidance.

Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

This passage says nothing at all about what Jesus is doing or where he is doing it.

You think Jesus is just up there in heaven doing who knows what while Christians understand that He dwells within us and works through us every day.

I believe that Christians have been told many things that aren't actually true. Jesus isn't Santa Claus with magical powers to know who has been naughty and who has been nice. Jesus is not the Romper Room Lady who saw Johnny, Mary, and Timmy in her magic circular wand. He is a real human being who has ascended to heaven. And he will return in the same manner as he left.

Without Him, we can do nothing fruitful, but through Him and the strength He gives us we can do all things that He wants us to do.

Okay, we agree on that point, but that doesn't mean that Jesus is in our hearts or ruling through us.

You understanding of sovereignty is completely flawed. You define it as meaning it involves controlling everything that happens.

With regard to God, sovereignty means that he controls everything that happens. Yes. With regard to his son, a human being, it means that he enforces his will on Earth through physical means. He is the one who has a sword coming out of his mouth, and he rules with a rod of iron. Each of these metaphors describes the force of arms to reward the righteous and punish the evil doer.

You think being sovereign can't include being the One who decides what can happen and what can't, but that shows a lack of understanding of what sovereignty is.

You deny reality the way it is, which colors your understanding of the scriptures.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You avoided every point I made.

I did not avoid every point you made. I responded to your first point, but I ignored your second point because it isn't relevant.

 

[WPM]

Agree. Cady said the parable "is not about accepting Christ", yet it clearly shows what will happen to those who accept Him and to those who reject Him ("the stone which the builders rejected"). I wonder if he even read the whole parable?

Probably not.

 

[WPM]

I did not avoid every point you made. I responded to your first point, but I ignored your second point because it isn't relevant.

More avoidance!

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
Mat 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
Mat 21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants (the Old Testament prophets), and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Mat 21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first (more Old Testament prophets): and they did unto them likewise.
Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son (Christ Jesus), saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him (Calvary).
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Mat 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
Mat 21:46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

The meaning of this parable is very clear. The disciples grasped it easily. Those that have eyes to see and ears to hear will grasp it. This is teaching about the approaching day of reckoning for man. It all concludes at the coming of Jesus Christ. This is when the righteous are rewarded and the wicked are punished. It is the end. The coming of the Lord is a climatic event. There's no space for your imaginary future millennium. It is all in your head.

This final event sees the wicked judged and destroyed. They are then cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He did it, though. Right? I showed you that he did it.

LOL. I never said He didn't. But, you said He did it frequently. Are you now admitting that you just made that up?

Make up your mind. Jesus is either in heaven or in people's hearts. Which is it?

Both. He is God and man at the same time as I have told you many times. This is why it's pointless to continue this discussion. Unless you understand who Jesus is, you can't possibly understand how He reigns over heaven and earth right now.

Unless you repent, you will stand before Jesus one day and have to explain why you did not accept Him as your God and your King. So, I say to you, repent while you still have time! Today is the day and now is the time of salvation! (2 Corinthians 6:2).

 

[CadyandZoe]

Listen to Peter preaching on Psalm 110:1

I listened to Peter and he never taught that Jesus is currently ruling among his enemies. You can not prove from Psalm 110 that the Lord is presently ruling among his enemies. And you know why. Jesus is not living among his enemies as you fully admit. He is currently living among his friends.

Peter quotes Psalm 110 to prove that David predicted Jesus's Ascension. However, neither David nor Peter suggests that Jesus is currently ruling from heaven. He quotes David saying, "The Lord said to my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool." In this way, both David and Peter place Jesus' rule out into the future. Jesus will continue to sit at God's right hand until the point in time when God has placed all of Jesus' enemies under his feet.

Peter made it clear that Christ was currently sitting “by the right hand of God exalted.” He immediately demonstrated that this was the fulfilment of the Messianic hope.

Christ is currently sitting by the right hand of God, but he is also currently waiting for God, not him, to put his enemies under his feet.

 

[CadyandZoe]

We see Christ exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, in Matthew 22:42-46, when He asked, “What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.”

Here He employs the Old Testament passage in Psalm 110:1 to impress His point. In His last question, Christ was here specifically referring to the great mystery of His eternal Sonship (or His pre-existence in all eternity) – a truth that evidently perplexed the religious Pharisees. The religious Pharisees had absolutely no grasp of that great truth. They had no comprehension that He was both before and after David. The answer to the enquiry was that He was before David (being the root of David) in His divine office as the eternal Son of God; therefore, David called Him Lord. Nevertheless, He was also his offspring in a natural sense, through the incarnation at Bethlehem, and was therefore a son of David by way of lineage.

He was also revealing the duality of His nature. As the Son of David, He was showing them His humanity, as the Son of God He was revealing His Deity. This discourse also revealed Christ’s eternal Sonship. Notwithstanding, such teaching confused the religious Pharisees. As man, He has assumed the throne of David, as God He has assumed the Father’s throne. This is speaking about authority. He has totally fulfilled every demand as man and God and He therefore reigns on high upon the throne of David and His Father’s throne.

It is clear from Matthew 22:42-46 that Christ applies this text to Himself thus rightly claiming the dualistic divine offices of king and of priest for Himself. It was still prior to His atoning death and glorious ascent to the throne, but He explicitly draws their eyes towards His person. In doing so, He was also revealing the duality of His nature. As the Son of David, He was showing them His humanity, as the Son of God He was revealing His Deity. This discourse also revealed Christ’s eternal Sonship. Notwithstanding, such teaching confused the religious Pharisees.

Again, none of this addresses the question under examination.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Your false religion is what leads you to not understand who Jesus is. He is God and He is the King of kings and Lord of lords right now. You are absolutely wrong. The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. He is One with the Son and the Father. Jesus is not referring to a different "paraclete" that would come. He was talking about the Spirit of the Father and of the Son coming to dwell in the hearts of believers.

I am amazed that, in your enthusiasm to be "right," you so quickly ignore Jesus' explicit statement when He said that He would send "another" Paracletos.

 

[WPM]

I listened to Peter and he never taught that Jesus is currently ruling among his enemies. You can not prove from Psalm 110 that the Lord is presently ruling among his enemies. And you know why. Jesus is not living among his enemies as you fully admit. He is currently living among his friends.

Peter quotes Psalm 110 to prove that David predicted Jesus's Ascension. However, neither David nor Peter suggests that Jesus is currently ruling from heaven. He quotes David saying, "The Lord said to my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool." In this way, both David and Peter place Jesus' rule out into the future. Jesus will continue to sit at God's right hand until the point in time when God has placed all of Jesus' enemies under his feet.


Christ is currently sitting by the right hand of God, but he is also currently waiting for God, not him, to put his enemies under his feet.

You do not get it. You are so besotted by your error. Peter made it clear that Christ was currently sitting “by the right hand of God exalted.” He immediately demonstrated that this was the fulfilment of the Messianic hope. He is reigning today. We see this in the fact he quotes Psalm 110 as part of his argument in Acts 2:34-35.

Peter ties up his whole argument in Acts 2:36 by saying: “let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

This statement recognizes the 2 aspects of His character - "Lord," His divinity, and "Christ" His Messianic earthly ministry as man. The title “Lord” here refers to His divine role as the “Son of God” whereas the title “Christ” relates to His Messianic office as “the son of man.” He carries a dual kingship as king of kings and Lord of lords.

 

[CadyandZoe]

He is spiritually in the hearts of all of His followers and our enemies surround us every day. Your lack of understanding of who Jesus is prevents you from understanding how He rules with His enemies surrounding Him.

When people say someone is "in their heart," they're speaking metaphorically. It usually means they hold deep affection, love, or an emotional connection with that person. It's about keeping them close in a figurative way—cherishing memories, caring deeply, or feeling emotionally tied to them.

When someone says that they have Jesus in their heart, they aren't suggesting that he and they share the same address. It’s more about emotional closeness rather than physical location. When someone says, “You’re in my heart,” they’re not implying you’re roommates—they’re expressing deep feelings of affection or connection.

Some interpretations suggest that Jesus' rule among his enemies is not about physical dominance but rather about the transformative power of love and faith within his followers. However, our discussion centers around David's Psalm, which speaks about the Lord extending his mighty scepter from Zion.

Exegetically, this verse suggests a physical reign in the presence of opposition. The phrase "rule in the midst of your enemies" implies that the ruler is not merely exercising authority from a distance but is actively reigning despite resistance.

 

[WPM]

This comparison of Herod to Jesus is ridiculous. Herod did not dwell in the hearts of his followers. Herod didn't have all power in heaven and earth with the ability to do anything he wanted anywhere at any time like Jesus does. If you understood that Jesus is God like Christians do, then you would not have so much trouble understanding how Jesus can rule over the earth even while bodily being in heaven. He is not just a man, but is also God.

That is how Peter concludes his whole argument in Acts 2:36: “let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

 

[CadyandZoe]

He does not have to wait until He "returns to earth to manifest and enforce his authority." He does that now.

That is your claim. I understand that. But you have no evidence to support your claim.

If Jesus were ruling over his enemies at this moment, we'd expect to see tangible, observable evidence of his reign. Some possibilities might include:

1. Geopolitical Authority – A clear establishment of Jesus as a recognized sovereign ruler over nations, with undeniable political control.
2. Universal Peace – Many prophecies associated with the Messiah’s physical reign (like Isaiah 2:4) describe a world without war, where enemies are subdued and swords are turned into plowshares.
3. Divine Justice – A system of governance that enforces true righteousness, eliminating corruption and injustice in a way no earthly government has been able to achieve.
4. Visible Presence – An undeniable manifestation of Jesus in a physical, ruling capacity—one that no one could dispute.
5. Supernatural Signs – Miraculous displays of divine power affecting the global order, fulfilling eschatological prophecies (such as in Daniel 7:13-14 or Revelation 19).
6. Submission of Enemies – If he were actively ruling over his enemies, we might expect complete subjugation of opposition forces—whether political, ideological, or spiritual.

Do we see this? No. Then he is not currently ruling.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Doing what? Twiddling His thumbs?

Who knows? Can you see him?

 

[CadyandZoe]

That is how Peter concludes his whole argument in Acts 2:36: “let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Jesus went to a far country to receive a kingdom. But he must return to earth in order to enforce his will.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What do you think that means? Do you think that means He is literally just sitting down in heaven? Do you think He is doing anything significant right now or mainly just waiting for His chance to use the authority He was given almost 2,000 years ago?

I don't think it is literal at all. Sitting down at the right hand of God is a metaphor for his being granted all authority over all creation.

 

[WPM]

When people say someone is "in their heart," they're speaking metaphorically. It usually means they hold deep affection, love, or an emotional connection with that person. It's about keeping them close in a figurative way—cherishing memories, caring deeply, or feeling emotionally tied to them.

When someone says that they have Jesus in their heart, they aren't suggesting that he and they share the same address. It’s more about emotional closeness rather than physical location. When someone says, “You’re in my heart,” they’re not implying you’re roommates—they’re expressing deep feelings of affection or connection.

Some interpretations suggest that Jesus' rule among his enemies is not about physical dominance but rather about the transformative power of love and faith within his followers. However, our discussion centers around David's Psalm, which speaks about the Lord extending his mighty scepter from Zion.

Exegetically, this verse suggests a physical reign in the presence of opposition. The phrase "rule in the midst of your enemies" implies that the ruler is not merely exercising authority from a distance but is actively reigning despite resistance.

He might not be with you on earth, but He is with me and the redeemed on earth. He is physically ruling in heaven right now at the right hand of majesty. He is spiritually ruling on earth right now in the hearts of His people.

Whilst Christ physical sits enthroned “at the right hand of the Father” in the heavenly domain in His humanity He is not limited to one geographical place. Spiritually, as God, He enjoys all the same omnipresence qualities as the Father and the Spirit. Ephesians 4:10 tells us: “He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens (speaking undeniably about Jesus), that he might fill all things.”

This is confirming how in His divinity there is no limit to Christ’s presence

His human body is in heaven but His divine presence can be found everywhere. What was veiled on earth in human flesh is now revealed in all its glory now as God of very God. Ephesians 1:22-23 tells us: “And hath put all things under his (Christ’s) feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”

In a physical human sense He has departed but in a spiritual sense He is still here. Of course these things are mysteries. Whilst I accept a question mark could be placed over Ephesians 1:22-23 whether it is referring exclusively to the Church or whether is referring to all creation (being the context is Him filling the Church), Ephesians 4:10 reveals Christ filling all things in a divine sense. Both prove that He is not limited to one place. His human body is in heaven but His divine nature is present everywhere. What was veiled on earth in human flesh is now revealed in all its glory now as God of very God.

Let us establish an absolute fact: Jesus (being divine) fills all things.

Jesus reassured His followers in Matthew 28:20: “lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”

He also said in Matthew 18:20, “For where two or three are gathered together in my Name, there Am I in the midst of them.”

Of course we are dealing with mysteries but I believe Christ is both man and God. As a man He is limited to a physical body, but as God I believe His influence, presence and power are limitless. When it says (and it does explicitly and repeatedly) that Christ is in us I take that to be a spiritual reality. Let’s be honest we are dealing with God.

Of course Christ was speaking here in a spiritual sense.

He was referring to His Omnipresent nature as God. He was not talking about the actual location of His glorified physical body.

Jesus predicted in John 14:20 “In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.”

Jesus explained in John 14:23, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.”

Paul said in 2 Corinthians 13:5, “Jesus Christ is in you.” By embracing Him in salvation, sinners enter into union with God and become one with Him.

Galatians 3:27 says, “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

In Colossians 1:27 Paul sums up this great truth by telling believers, it is “Christ in you, the hope of glory.”

Romans 8:10 says, "But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness"

Galatians 2:20 says: "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me"

Ephesians 3:17 says: “that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.”

You do believe there is only one Christ? You do believe this is talking about the same Jesus that walked the streets of Jerusalem?

Those who deny Christ’s omnipresence contend that these passages simply mean that Jesus is present “by His Spirit.” In other words: Jesus is not really in us, in our midst, or filling all things – as it says. The Holy Spirit is doing that in His Name. They equate this to the job of an ambassador. The only problem is: those verses do not say that Jesus is present “by His Spirit!” They just say Jesus is present!

Who knows? Can you see him?

Typical mockery by a heretic! What is Jesus role now in heaven? Is He a king yet? Does He possess divine power? Does He hold all authority? Does He rule over all creation? Does He reign over His enemies? Is there anything under His feet?