Hidden in plain sight: Why I believe this about the Revelation

[PinSeeker]

So unless Satan is bound Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the Word of God in the gospel are all powerless is what you are saying.

<chuckles> No, that's not what I'm saying... <smile> But how God has chosen/decided to do things is... well, it is what it is. He's God.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Zao is life]

Tell me, what effect do you think the death and resurrection had on Satan in terms of what he has been able to do in New Testament times compared to Old Testament times? None at all? Just a minimal effect?

I don't go beyond what scripture says OR read into what scripture says, and scripture says only that his power of death (that he had since Adam sinned) was destroyed.

WHICH IS THE GREATEST CHANGE THAT HAS TAKEN PLACE SINCE THE FALL OF ADAM, AND IT'S THROUGH CHRIST'S DEATH AND RESURRECTION THAT IT HAS TAKEN PLACE.

His ability to accuse the brethren was also destroyed. This is what scripture says:-

Those who received these epistles had never heard or read anything about Satan being "bound and unable to deceive the nations for a thousand years" - everything written below was written decades before the Revelation was given:

Ephesians 2
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

1 Peter 5
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Ephesians 6
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

1 Thessalonians 2
18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

James 4
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Jesus had said:

John 12
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

The Revelation tells us the following:

Revelation 12
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world ..

Ephesians 2
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

Revelation 12
9 .. he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

In HIs Revelation, Jesus said the following to the church in Smyrna:

Revelation 2
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

In Revelation 13:2 we are told that the beast will get his power from the same dragon that ALL the above scriptures have been referring to:

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and authority was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Revelation 13).

In the first of the last three chapters of the Bible we are told something about the souls of those "which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands":

"I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and they were alive [zao] and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

IMHO the only way you can have the above referring to all who have ever been "spiritually alive" in Christ, is by having the above mentioned souls being beheaded for refusal to worship the beast BEFORE the beast ascended from the abyss.

And the same chapter begins by telling us that Satan will be bound so that he "should deceive the nations NO MORE until the thousand years are completed - and the verses talking about it markedly and very specifically use THE METAPHORS of chains, a key, the abyss, and a seal to be set on him UNTIL he is once again loosed [G3089 luo]

G3089 lýō (or luo): Always refers to something that was bound or restrained, being loosed (i.e loosed from having been bound), for example:

Luke 13:15-6
And the Lord answered him and said, Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the sabbath loosen [lýō] his ox or ass from the stall and lead it away, to give it drink? And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham whom Satan has bound, lo these eighteen years, be loosened [lýō] from this bond on the Sabbath day?

Matthew 16:19:
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose [lýō] on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Acts 22:30:
On the morrow, because he would have known the certainty wherefore he was accused of the Jews, he loosed [lýō] him from his bands, and commanded the chief priests and all their council to appear, and brought Paul down, and set him before them.

The same word is used for the dissolving of the elements in 2 Peter 3:10.

So IMO it takes a great deal to imagine that the very specific metaphors used in Revelation 20:1-3 are not MEANT to cause the reader to see it as a complete incapacitation of Satan with regard to his ability to deceive the nations

- an incapacitation which the rest of the New Testament's reference to the activities of Satan in the world CERTAINLY DOES NOT IMPLY HAS ALREADY OCCURRED (IMO).

This is apart from the fact that it's linked by the text to the same thousand years during which those who had NOT worshiped the beast from the abyss - THE BEAST which had received its power and authority FROM the dragon, are now seen ALIVE [zao] and reigning with Christ - and what the text refers to as "the first resurrection" is mentioned in the same text.

IMO to spiritualize this into the things Amillennialism has spiritualized it into, flies AGAINST sound biblical hermenutics and the whole New Testament revelation about what happened to Satan immediately following the ascension of Christ - why and how his power of death was destroyed, and HOW LONG it was destroyed for (not only for a thousand years but forever and ever), etc.

And because IMO you read your understanding of that part of the complete revelation INTO the text (as well as INTO the text talking about Jesus binding the strong man and spoiling his goods and what in its context it is referring to), we will obviously never agree.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't go beyond what scripture says OR read into what scripture says,

You understand that by saying something like this it comes across as if you're saying that I do go beyond what scriptures says or read into what scripture says, unlike you, right? Try to word things differently.

and scripture says only that his power of death (that he had since Adam sinned) was destroyed.

WHICH IS THE GREATEST CHANGE THAT HAS TAKEN PLACE SINCE THE FALL OF ADAM, AND IT'S THROUGH CHRIST'S DEATH AND RESURRECTION THAT IT HAS TAKEN PLACE.

His ability to accuse the brethren was also destroyed. This is what scripture says:-

And what do you think was the effect of Satan having the power of death and the ability to accuse the brethren taken away from him?

Paul said that in Old Testament times the Gentiles had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-12). There were few Gentiles saved in OT times, right? How about in New Testament times? We can see a description of "a great multitude which no man can number" from all nations being saved in Revelation 7:9, right? Surely, that is not talking about the number of Gentiles that were saved in OT times, so most of those must have been saved during NT times. Do you think that the power of death and his ability to accuse being taken away from Satan had something to do with that? I do.

Those who received these epistles had never heard or read anything about Satan being "bound and unable to deceive the nations for a thousand years" - everything written below was written decades before the Revelation was given:

Ephesians 2
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

1 Peter 5
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Ephesians 6
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

1 Thessalonians 2
18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

James 4
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Jesus had said:

John 12
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

The Revelation tells us the following:

Revelation 12
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world ..

Ephesians 2
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

Revelation 12
9 .. he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

In HIs Revelation, Jesus said the following to the church in Smyrna:

Revelation 2
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

In Revelation 13:2 we are told that the beast will get his power from the same dragon that ALL the above scriptures have been referring to:

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and authority was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Revelation 13).

In the first of the last three chapters of the Bible we are told something about the souls of those "which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands":

"I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and they were alive [zao] and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

IMHO the only way you can have the above referring to all who have ever been "spiritually alive" in Christ, is by having the above mentioned souls being beheaded for refusal to worship the beast BEFORE the beast ascended from the abyss.

And the same chapter begins by telling us that Satan will be bound so that he "should deceive the nations NO MORE until the thousand years are completed - and the verses talking about it markedly and very specifically use THE METAPHORS of chains, a key, the abyss, and a seal to be set on him UNTIL he is once again loosed [G3089 luo]

G3089 lýō (or luo): Always refers to something that was bound or restrained, being loosed (i.e loosed from having been bound), for example:

Luke 13:15-6
And the Lord answered him and said, Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the sabbath loosen [lýō] his ox or ass from the stall and lead it away, to give it drink? And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham whom Satan has bound, lo these eighteen years, be loosened [lýō] from this bond on the Sabbath day?

Matthew 16:19:
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose [lýō] on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Acts 22:30:
On the morrow, because he would have known the certainty wherefore he was accused of the Jews, he loosed [lýō] him from his bands, and commanded the chief priests and all their council to appear, and brought Paul down, and set him before them.

The same word is used for the dissolving of the elements in 2 Peter 3:10.

So IMO it takes a great deal to imagine that the very specific metaphors used in Revelation 20:1-3 are not MEANT to cause the reader to see it as a complete incapacitation of Satan with regard to his ability to deceive the nations

- an incapacitation which the rest of the New Testament's reference to the activities of Satan in the world CERTAINLY DOES NOT IMPLY HAS ALREADY OCCURRED (IMO).

This is apart from the fact that it's linked by the text to the same thousand years during which those who had NOT worshiped the beast from the abyss - THE BEAST which had received its power and authority FROM the dragon, are now seen ALIVE [zao] and reigning with Christ - and what the text refers to as "the first resurrection" is mentioned in the same text.

IMO to spiritualize this into the things Amillennialism has spiritualized it into, flies AGAINST sound biblical hermenutics and the whole New Testament revelation about what happened to Satan immediately following the ascension of Christ - why and how his power of death was destroyed, and HOW LONG it was destroyed for (not only for a thousand years but forever and ever), etc.

And because IMO you read your understanding of that part of the complete revelation INTO the text (as well as INTO the text talking about Jesus binding the strong man and spoiling his goods and what in its context it is referring to), we will obviously never agree.

And you talk about WPM's posts being too long?

You already know that I disagree with all of that because we've discussed this before. So, I'm not going to waste time trying to comment on all of that. We just have a very different understanding of what the binding of Satan entails and that likely will never change. So, that leaves us with a choice. We can go back and forth arguing about it, knowing it will go nowhere and may even lead to personal insults, or we can agree to disagree. I choose to just agree to disagree.

 

[Zao is life]

And what do you think was the effect of Satan having the power of death and the ability to accuse the brethren taken away from him?

"FOR THIS REASON Christ died [apothnesko] and rose again from the dead [anistemi], and lived again [anazao: lived again in a body that is not dead], so that he may be the Lord of both the dead [nekros] and living [zao: those who are alive in a body that is not dead]." (Romans 4:9).

"Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth [zao], and was dead; and, behold, I am alive to the Ages of the ages [Greek the aeons of the aeons], Amen; and I have the keys of hades and of death." (Revelation 1:17-18).

I'm not going to talk to you about this anymore because IMHO the fact that you repeatedly ask the question is directly proportional to the extent which Christ's victory over death is diminished in your mind

- which is why you cannot see how great is the difference between Satan having power over death and the ability to accuse the brethren during the O.T days, and the complete victory - based on His ENORMOUS sacrifice for our sins - of Christ

- and as a result of your diminishing of the change, you think that the change needs to be manifested in Satan having been bound in terms of his ability to deceive the nations, as though there is no evidence of any change if Satan was not bound.

SATAN HAS NOT BEEN BOUND IN TERMS OF HIS ABILITY TO DECEIVE THE NATIONS OR IN THE MANNER IN WHICH REVELATION 20:1-3 STATES HE WILL BE BOUND - AND IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO THE ENORMITY OF THE CHANGE BETWEEN THE OLD TESTAMENT AND THE NEW BROUGHT ABOUT BY CHRIST AND HIS COMPLETE VICTORY OVER SATAN.

So now that I've become indignant by your seeming lack of appreciation for what Christ achieved for us on the cross, I'm going to stop talking to you about this - because it's already clear to both of us LONG AGO that we will never agree on this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"FOR THIS REASON Christ died [apothnesko] and rose again from the dead [anistemi], and lived again [anazao: lived again in a body that is not dead], so that he may be the Lord of both the dead [nekros] and living [zao: those who are alive in a body that is not dead]." (Romans 4:9).

"Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth [zao], and was dead; and, behold, I am alive to the Ages of the ages [Greek the aeons of the aeons], Amen; and I have the keys of hades and of death." (Revelation 1:17-18).

I'm not going to talk to you about this anymore because IMHO the fact that you repeatedly ask the question is directly proportional to the extent which Christ's victory over death is diminished in your mind

- which is why you cannot see how great is the difference between Satan having power over death and the ability to accuse the brethren during the O.T days, and the complete victory - based on His ENORMOUS sacrifice for our sins - of Christ

- and as a result of your diminishing of the change, you think that the change needs to be manifested in Satan having been bound in terms of his ability to deceive the nations, as though there is no evidence of any change if Satan was not bound.

SATAN HAS NOT BEEN BOUND IN TERMS OF HIS ABILITY TO DECEIVE THE NATIONS OR IN THE MANNER IN WHICH REVELATION 20:1-3 STATES HE WILL BE BOUND - AND IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO THE ENORMITY OF THE CHANGE BETWEEN THE OLD TESTAMENT AND THE NEW BROUGHT ABOUT BY CHRIST AND HIS COMPLETE VICTORY OVER SATAN.

So now that I've become indignant by your seeming lack of appreciation for what Christ achieved for us on the cross, I'm going to stop talking to you about this - because it's already clear to both of us LONG AGO that we will never agree on this.

This is an extremely offensive post. I do NOT have a lack of appreciation for what Christ achieved for us on the cross AT ALL! A major reason that I'm an amillennialist is because amillennialism puts a major emphasis on what Jesus achieved on the cross and what He has done since then while reigning over all things. So, this post is a COMPLETE MISREPRESENTATION of me and what I believe.

It's very strange that you talk about the enormity of the change that took place because of Christ and his victory over Satan, but have a problem with Amils relating that to his binding.

You could have just not responded or said that you don't want to answer the question or just answered the question without the personal insults, but you just couldn't help yourself. That's just who you are, apparently.

 

[Zao is life]

This is an extremely offensive post. I do NOT have a lack of appreciation for what Christ achieved for us on the cross AT ALL! A major reason that I'm an amillennialist is because amillennialism puts a major emphasis on what Jesus achieved on the cross and what He has done since then while reigning over all things. So, this post is a COMPLETE MISREPRESENTATION of me and what I believe.

It's very strange that you talk about the enormity of the change that took place because of Christ and his victory over Satan, but have a problem with Amils relating that to his binding.

You could have just not responded or said that you don't want to answer the question or just answered the question without the personal insults, but you just couldn't help yourself. That's just who you are, apparently.

It's true. The reason why you think that the change between before Christ died and since He died, needs to be manifested in Satan being bound in terms of his ability to deceive the nations, is because you do not appreciate nearly enough the fact that Christ gained victory over death and destroyed Satan's works - power over death - forever and ever - and this has NOTHING to do with a thousand years or Satan's binding for a thousand years in terms of his ability to deceive the nations.

The gospel and the power of the Word of God is Almighty and Satan has NO power over God - whether he is able or unable through being permitted or bound by God to deceive the nations to the best of his very limited ability.

See also what you implied about me by your JW slur and what I said about it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's true. The reason why you think that the change between before Christ died and since He died, needs to be manifested in Satan being bound in terms of his ability to deceive the nations, is because you do not appreciate nearly enough the fact that Christ gained victory over death and destroyed Satan's works - power over death - forever and ever - and this has NOTHING to do with a thousand years or Satan's binding for a thousand years in terms of his ability to deceive the nations.

Now you are doubling down! You have no shame. The last thing you should criticize an Amil about is telling them they don't appreciate the work of Christ on the cross enough. That is just ridiculous.

How can you conclude that destroying Satan's works is not related to his ability to deceive the nations? What exactly do you think are "Satan's works" then?

The gospel and the power of the Word of God is Almighty and Satan has NO power over God - whether he is able or unable through being permitted or bound by God to deceive the nations to the best of his very limited ability.

There were few Gentiles saved in OT times and "a great multitude" in NT times. But, that had nothing to do with Satan's ability to deceive the nations or not?

See also what you implied about me by your JW slur and what I said about it.

Yes, I saw how you misunderstood what I was saying. How about letting me explain first before you make judgments?

 

[rebuilder 454]

You mean you need Romans 11 molested to make it fit the pre-trib rapture and dispensationalist false doctrines.
You need the 144k molested to fit the pre-trib rapture theory and the dispensationalist false doctrine.

Give me one chapter and verse of scripture that states that tribulation and "the tribulation" and "great tribulation" is not the experience of the saints, but of the world.

And give me one chapter and verse of scripture where it states that the faithful saints who Jesus said will be delivered up to tribulation and killed at the end of the age had been raptured before the tribulation Jesus is talking about.

You keep side-stepping and this game of yours is going on too long because you just ignore the challenge and make broad statements based on nothing.

You know, I asked you a question twice, and you went into some deal" you mean you need some verses changed...."
You did not even engage ANYTHING,
..and then you get silly insane in telling me "you keep side-stepping and this game of yours is going on too long because you just ignore the challenge and make broad statements based on nothing."

I will just leave you to it
I am looking for a more mature and intelligent conversation.
Even in offering you an olive branch, in telling you; "take one concept at a time,"...even giving you EXAMPLES...all you can do is get juvenile,and crazy.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You cannot produce a PRE-TRIB rapture argument. I challenged you to produce chapter and verse but you have not done so, though I proved to you from scripture that "tribulation", "the tribulation" and "great tribulation" refers to something the saints endure at the hand of unbelievers and of the authorities of this world, and at the hand of the beast and false prophet, who will war against them and overcome them (Revelation 13:7).

So by your response and side-stepping of the challenge, you have already begun to prove a second time that you fall into the third category of Christians who claim to uphold the authority of scripture over all the doctrines and theologies of men, but fail to do so when their own doctrines are challenged by scripture.

* Jesus said that at the end of the age the faithful saints will be delivered up to tribulation and killed, having become hated of all nations for His name's sake, and that the unfaithful will fall away and betray the faithful (Matthew 24:9-14).
* The elect are present in the world during the great tribulation that Jesus is talking about, because those days will be shortened for the elect's sake (Matthew 24:22).
* The multitude who came out from the great tribulation were not raptured before they came out from it (Revelation 7).
* The two witnesses did not rise from the dead before they were killed by the beast (Revelation 11).
* The dead in Christ will rise first and those who are still alive will be raptured (caught up), and all of them (the dead in Christ who rose and those who are raptured straight afterward), will meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
* The faithful remnant were not delivered from the furnace before they went into it (Daniel 3:19).
* God's people were delivered from Pharaoh the same day his armies were destroyed, and Pharaoh was judged.
* The saints are in the world UNTIL the seventh seal is opened and the seventh trumpet sounds and the seventh bowl of wrath - the last of the plagues - is poured out.
* Jesus interjects in the middle of the 6th bowl of wrath (Armageddon) to warn His flock that He is coming as a thief.
* Jesus said that at the end of the age the faithful saints will be delivered up to tribulation and killed, having become hated of all nations for His name's sake, and that the unfaithful will fall away and betray the faithful (Matthew 24:9-14).
* There are NO scriptures talking about "the tribulation" that are talking about the wrath of God that will come upon the world. They are all talking about what the saints endure and will endure.

You still have done NOTHING to provide chapter and verse of scripture that talks about a pre-tribulation rapture.

Just pretend Jesus didn't say what he did in mat 24,and mat 25,and don't bother with rev14.
Then you can do something creative with acts1 and rev 14, make sure you omit the 2 escape verses,and pretrind noah and lot were delivered POST FLOOD,AND POST FIRE. you will be fine. (in your little postrib world)

 

[WPM]

Just pretend Jesus didn't say what he did in mat 24,and mat 25,and don't bother with rev14.
Then you can do something creative with acts1 and rev 14, make sure you omit the 2 escape verses,and pretrind noah and lot were delivered POST FLOOD,AND POST FIRE. you will be fine. (in your little postrib world)

Jesus confirms, “the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (Luke 17:27).

 

[rebuilder 454]

You shouldn't mistake correction for hostility. I tell you these things for your good. If you pay attention you will become a much better communicator, without the distractions.

Much love!

I had to put him/her on ignore.
I am not here to converse with silly people.
I found myself shaking my head at every sentence

 

[WPM]

You understand that by saying something like this it comes across as if you're saying that I do go beyond what scriptures says or read into what scripture says, unlike you, right? Try to word things differently.


And what do you think was the effect of Satan having the power of death and the ability to accuse the brethren taken away from him?

Paul said that in Old Testament times the Gentiles had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-12). There were few Gentiles saved in OT times, right? How about in New Testament times? We can see a description of "a great multitude which no man can number" from all nations being saved in Revelation 7:9, right? Surely, that is not talking about the number of Gentiles that were saved in OT times, so most of those must have been saved during NT times. Do you think that the power of death and his ability to accuse being taken away from Satan had something to do with that? I do.


And you talk about WPM's posts being too long?

You already know that I disagree with all of that because we've discussed this before. So, I'm not going to waste time trying to comment on all of that. We just have a very different understanding of what the binding of Satan entails and that likely will never change. So, that leaves us with a choice. We can go back and forth arguing about it, knowing it will go nowhere and may even lead to personal insults, or we can agree to disagree. I choose to just agree to disagree.

It is called duplicity.

 

[marks]

I had to put him/her on ignore.
I am not here to converse with silly people.
I found myself shaking my head at every sentence

Too much personal nonsense. It's like more and more people on this forum feel the need to dump on others. It's just not edifying! I love discussing Scriptures with anyone who can keep a civil tongue in their mouth.

I wonder sometimes, though, how many members are presumptuous and rude in order to not have to respond to those who disagree with them.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Just pretend Jesus didn't say what he did in mat 24,and mat 25,and don't bother with rev14.
Then you can do something creative with acts1 and rev 14, make sure you omit the 2 escape verses,and pretrind noah and lot were delivered POST FLOOD,AND POST FIRE. you will be fine. (in your little postrib world)

You don't even understand what others believe. No one says Noah and Lot were delivered post flood and post fire. Your definition of the trib correlates with the wrath that will come down on unbelievers when Jesus returns. He said just as all unbelievers were killed by the flood and all unbelievers in Sodom were killed by the fire that came down on Sodom, "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30). That means all unbelievers will be killed on the day He returns just as all unbelievers were killed the day Noah entered the ark and all unbelievers in Sodom were killed the day Lot went out of Sodom.

So, if you want to define the trib as the wrath that correlates with the flood in Noah's day and the fire in Lot's day, then His coming will be pre-trib (pre-wrath) in the sense that we will be caught up to Him and then He will destroy all unbelievers just like the flood did in Noah's day and the fire did in Lot's day.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Too much personal nonsense. It's like more and more people on this forum feel the need to dump on others. It's just not edifying! I love discussing Scriptures with anyone who can keep a civil tongue in their mouth.

I wonder sometimes, though, how many members are presumptuous and rude in order to not have to respond to those who disagree with them.

Much love!

How are you not aware that the person you said this to has not been civil and has been rude on many occasions? Are you letting him off the hook just because he is pre-trib?

 

[marks]

How are you not aware that the person you said this to has not been civil and has been rude on many occasions? Are you letting him off the hook just because he is pre-trib?

I'm doing no such thing. I'm responding to the posts I've read.

How are you not aware of how inappropriate these kinds of comments are?? Do you post like this to me just because I'm pre-trib??

Something to think about, eh?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus confirms, “the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (Luke 17:27).

You can see how clueless he is about what others believe when he tries to claim that someone believes that Noah was delivered post-flood and Lot was delivered post-fire. No one believes that. But, what he's missing is what you pointed out here, which is that the same day Noah entered the ark, the flood came and destroyed them all. So, the same day Noah was delivered to safety, God's wrath came against all unbelievers and it destroyed them all. Jesus said "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), which means that Jesus will "destroy them all" on the day we are rescued and delivered while being caught up to meet Him in the air.

How do pre-tribs not see that? They think unbelievers are going to survive on the day we are caught up to meet the Lord, but Jesus Himself taught otherwise.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm doing no such thing. I'm responding to the posts I've read.

How are you not aware of how inappropriate these kinds of comments are??

Why is it inappropriate? I asked you a question and did not say you were doing that. Would you rather I accuse you of doing that instead of asking? You've never seen any of his many rude posts? That seems impossible, but if that's what you claim, I'll take your word for it.

Do you post like this to me just because I'm pre-trib??

Nope.

Something to think about, eh?

Not really.

 

[WPM]

You can see how clueless he is about what others believe when he tries to claim that someone believes that Noah was delivered post-flood and Lot was delivered post-fire. No one believes that. But, what he's missing is what you pointed out here, which is that the same day Noah entered the ark, the flood came and destroyed them all. So, the same day Noah was delivered to safety, God's wrath came against all unbelievers and it destroyed them all. Jesus said "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), which means that Jesus will "destroy them all" on the day we are rescued and delivered while being caught up to meet Him in the air.

How do pre-tribs not see that? They think unbelievers are going to survive on the day we are caught up to meet the Lord, but Jesus Himself taught otherwise.

Exactly bro. It is a man-made Jesuit invention.

 

[WPM]

Too much personal nonsense. It's like more and more people on this forum feel the need to dump on others. It's just not edifying! I love discussing Scriptures with anyone who can keep a civil tongue in their mouth.

I wonder sometimes, though, how many members are presumptuous and rude in order to not have to respond to those who disagree with them.

Much love!

And have you observed the nastiness of this guy?