Who are the “other sheep” of John 10:16? (For Jehovah's Witnesses)

[Keiw]

The verse we are discussing is in the new testament. It was written in greek.

All Greek texts were done from the Latin Vulgate or the Codex sinacticus-4th century Catholicism works.

 

[Keiw]

At the time of the rapture the age of grace ends, and all returns back to the old laws. The 144000 are those left that are to guid the people through the returned laws, hence they are all Jews.The abomination of desolation can only happen when the old laws are in play hence the reason the temple is to be rebuilt.

Rev 14:3--the 144,000 are bought from the Earth= to heaven--these will sit on thrones beside Jesus as kings and priests( Rev 1:6--Rev 20:6)--These are the anointed bride--will help separate the sheep from the goats during the tribulation and judge after the resurrection. Some were Israelites but the ones living today aren't. They are spiritual Israel.

 

[shepherdsword]

All Greek texts were done from the Latin Vulgate or the Codex sinacticus-4th century Catholicism works.

You are ignorant of the Codex Porphyrianus and the Codex Alexandrinus. They were both complete texts of Revelation. Irregardless, there is no text of any kind that doesn't have "no man can number" in Rev 7:9. INCLUDING the The Kingdom Interlinear Translation (see image below) Guess what it says in Rev 7:9? "a great multitude that no man can number"! Looks like even your own sect doesn't agree that the greek texts are corrupted.

 

[Keiw]

You are ignorant of the Codex Porphyrianus and the Codex Alexandrinus. They were both complete texts of Revelation. Irregardless, there is no text of any kind that doesn't have "no man can number" in Rev 7:9. INCLUDING the The Kingdom Interlinear Translation (see image below) Guess what it says in Rev 7:9? "a great multitude that no man can number"! Looks like even your own sect doesn't agree that the greek texts are corrupted.

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No man can number the great crowd( multitude)( i didnt say that part was corrupted)= the little flock ( Luke 12:32)= are numbered.144,000 bought from the Earth( Rev 14:3)
John 1:1 is corrupted in the altered translations--I am that i am does not belong in the OT- I will be what i will be is correct.
But one of the biggest atrocities of all time = the removal of Gods name in his bible over 7000 places, replaced with titles by wicked men who had no right, by satans will to mislead all using those altered translations.

 

[PS95]

All Greek texts were done from the Latin Vulgate or the Codex sinacticus-4th century Catholicism works.

Are you aware about the sign above Jesus' head on the cross? Yes, I said above the Lord's HEAD, not his hands as your JW pictures all show. The scriptures say it was above His head.
Do you realize that the sign was written in Hebrew, Greek and Latin?

 

[PS95]

You are ignorant of the Codex Porphyrianus and the Codex Alexandrinus. They were both complete texts of Revelation. Irregardless, there is no text of any kind that doesn't have "no man can number" in Rev 7:9. INCLUDING the The Kingdom Interlinear Translation (see image below) Guess what it says in Rev 7:9? "a great multitude that no man can number"! Looks like even your own sect doesn't agree that the greek texts are corrupted.

View attachment 64200

I have 2 copies of that. different editions. Both clearly show how badly their translation is. I would have to call it a transliteration.
My JW family refuses to look at their own interlinear! I have tried. Their reason'' " we were told it would confuse us"
It's too sad for words. yes it would CONFUSE them.

 

[shepherdsword]

No man can number the great crowd( multitude)( i didnt say that part was corrupted)= the little flock ( Luke 12:32)= are numbered.144,000 bought from the Earth( Rev 14:3)

Rev 7:9 was the verse we were discussing.

John 1:1 is corrupted in the altered translations--I am that i am does not belong in the OT- I will be what i will be is correct.

John 1:1 is the same in The JW greek text as it is in all the other greek texts. It's just that the errant translation of the Kingdom interlinear says "and the Word was "a" God". It's errant because there is no indefinite article in the verse in any greek text and it breaks the rule of greek grammar and syntax to insert one.

But one of the biggest atrocities of all time = the removal of Gods name in his bible over 7000 places, replaced with titles by wicked men who had no right, by satans will to mislead all using those altered translations.

It's true the Jews substituted various names such as "Adonia" and "El Shaddai" for "YHVH" in various places but that is not the issue we were dealing with. That issue is that there will be a great multitude that no man can number, redeemed, in heaven and before God's throne.

 

[PS95]

Rev 7:9 was the verse we were discussing.

John 1:1 is the same in The JW greek text as it is in all the other greek texts. It's just that the errant translation of the Kingdom interlinear says "and the Word was "a" God". It's errant because there is no indefinite article in the verse in any greek text and it breaks the rule of greek grammar and syntax to insert one.

It's true the Jews substituted various names such as "Adonia" and "El Shaddai" for "YHVH" in various places but that is not the issue we were dealing with. That issue is that there will be a great multitude that no man can number, redeemed, in heaven and before God's throne.

give it up with john 1:1- it goes nowhere with them.

 

[PS95]

Yes a great number=8 or 9 million out of nearly 9 billion.=FEW--Only 8 or 9 million obey Jesus on Earth. Only 8 or 9 million even know what Jesus actually taught. So its just as Jesus spoke=FEW will find the road that leads off into life=Matt 7:14

8 or 9 million- the great crowd is only JWs? That is what I also recall being taught. no new light on this yet?

 

[PS95]

Actually the "other sheep", not of the fold of the "little flock" are identified in Revelation ch 7.
John sees those "sealed" (anointed, chosen, elected) in verse 4, numbering 144,000 out of all the tribes of Israel....but these are not literal Israel, but spiritual Israel...."the Israel of God" are Christians and include both believing Gentiles and Jews. (Galatians 6:16)

John then sees another group.....different from the first numbered group.
This group is larger......in fact no number is give because they are a great crowd or multitude....
"After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

If you know your scripture, you will understand that the ones who experience the "first resurrection" (Rev 20:4) are the elect chosen from all nations but who represent "the Israel of God" of whom Peter said, after the conversion of Cornelius....“Now I truly understand that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him." (Acts 10:34)

No nationality is important anymore because Jesus died for all who 'fear God and do what is right', are acceptable to him.
The only reason why God chose Israel was because of his relationship with Abraham......sadly his kin did not show the same faith or trust in Jehovah.....but he still used them to bring forth his Messiah, despite their frequent excursions into false worship. They broke their covenant with Him many times, but he was true to his part. After they had his son put to death, he cast them off. (Matt 23:3-39)

This second, larger group are said to "come out of the great tribulation" which occurs on earth (Matt 24:21)...they are the survivors of that world catastrophe, like Noah and his family were. Jesus said the time of his return would be "just like the days of Noah"....in what way? He said that the people "took no notice" of Noah's warning about God's intentions as he "preached righteousness" to a lawless people. (2 Peter 2:5)
True Christians today are also preaching righteousness to lawless people who resent the fact that we bring a message from God that is going to affect their future. They don't want to do what God says...they want to serve either a god of their own making, or no god at all. Like the people of Noah's day, their hatred and ridicule will come back to haunt them as they realize that they could have saved their lives if only they had listened and obeyed.

This other sheep nonsense is a huge key to why Jws are so mistaken. To just make a leap from Jesus saying he had other sheep- all the way to "the great crowd" and wrongly connecting the two in Rev is to utterly ignore the NT scriptures which clearly reveal the correct meaning many times over.

 

[shepherdsword]

From the Mounce Interlinear….
John 1:1…
“1 In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros ·ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos”

Here it is word for word…..Greek to English…..and the definite article “ho” is seen clealy in the Greek for “ho logos”…but “ho theos“ referring to Yahweh is seen only once, not twice. The last mention of “God” there is just “theos“ without the definite article, indicating what Strongs defines as….

1. “a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities”

Yes...there are definite articles...but no INDEFINATE articles. You can't say the "word was "a" God"

Since there were no capital letters in Greek, to render all reference to “theos“ as “God” (with a capital “G”) is simply bad and misleading translation.
If the divine name had been retained by the disobedient Jews John 1:1 would have read….

“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with Yahweh and the Word was divine.“ (so “a god” would be perfectly correct according to the meaning of ”theos” in Greek) Jesus was the divine ”Son of God”.

“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with Yahweh (THEOS) and the Word was divine (also THEOS). Theos is used in both places. You cherrypick and translate one as "Yahweh" and the other as "divine" In any case...the greek clearly states that the word IS God.

The “great multitude” are not a finite number as are the elect seen with Jesus in heaven…..the contrast would be meaningless if they were not seen together “before the throne of God”. Where was God’s throne in the days of ancient Israel? David was said to sit on God’s throne, but it was symbolically on earth as was his Temple.

But what is the location of each group?

There is a great multitude of redeemed people before God's throne. Where is God's throne?

Rv 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne

So two distinct groups….one in heaven and the other on earth, because they are survivors of the “the great tribulation”….God promised that the Lamb would be their Shepherd and would “guide them to springs of water of life” and that he would “wipe every tear from their eyes”…..

Rev 21:2-5 confirms that this promised is made to humankind….
”And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.” And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” (NASB)

God is going to spread his tabernacle (tent) over “men”…..human beings, and he is going to bring them back to his original purpose for them…..to have them dwell under his care and protection so that ‘death and mourning and pain will “be no more”, because all those things will have “passed away”….never to be experienced again.

Salvation isn’t only about going to heaven…..

The great multitude is in heaven. However, there will be a new heaven and a new earth. God will then dwell with us forever.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes...there are definite articles...but no INDEFINATE articles. You can't say the "word was "a" God"

Read it in Greek….the first mention of “theos” is “ho theos”…..but the second mention has no definite article.…so just “theos”. According to Strongs Concordance “theos“ doesn’t just mean God (capital “G”)

Greek does not have an indefinite article, but English translations are full of them, so that the translation reads as we understand our language. To say that Jesus was “a god” is perfectly in keeping with the Greek understanding of the word “theos”….it just fights with a favorite doctrine.

There is no punctuation in Greek either, yet we see that too….sometime put in the wrong place, like Luke 23:43, where Jesus told the thief hung alongside of him….”I tell you today you will be with me in paradise”.
If the comma is placed after the word “you” that gives Jesus’ statement a completely different meaning to placing it after the word “today”…..so which is correct?

“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with Yahweh (THEOS) and the Word was divine (also THEOS). Theos is used in both places. You cherrypick and translate one as "Yahweh" and the other as "divine" In any case...the greek clearly states that the word IS God.

Not what the Greek says…look it up. Only one is “ho theos “ (only Yahweh is addressed with the definite article) which translators totally ignore in their desire to make Jesus into what he never was.

There is a great multitude of redeemed people before God's throne. Where is God's throne?

Rv 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne

The great multitude are “before God’s throne” in the same way that the Israelites were when David was said to sit on God’s throne….the throne of David was God acting through his appointed human leaders…..as the rightful Sovereign Ruler of mankind, God is in heaven, but God was said to be representatively on earth in the form of David’s Kingship.

Jesus was hailed as ”the son of David”…..was David God?
Rev 21:2-4 says that God will be ”with men”….humans. In the same way that he was “with Israel” who were on earth whilst their God was in heaven, represented by his appointed human servants.

The great multitude is in heaven. However, there will be a new heaven and a new earth. God will then dwell with us forever.

So, what do you expect this “new heavens and new earth” to be….just out of curiosity…?

 

[Berean]

This other sheep nonsense is a huge key to why Jws are so mistaken. To just make a leap from Jesus saying he had other sheep- all the way to "the great crowd" and wrongly connecting the two in Rev is to utterly ignore the NT scriptures which clearly reveal the correct meaning many times over.

They love to twist the scriptures and misapply them. The two groups are not connected. Here's another example of butchering the scriptures from the March 1, 1978 Watchtower, page 25

18 Well could Jesus ask his apostles: “You do not want to go also, do you?” Peter had the right answer: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life; and we have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God.” (John 6:67-69) And so today; in view of all the foregoing the course of wisdom is indeed to keep associating with the “faithful and discreet slave.” That “slave,” on the one hand, makes the “sayings of everlasting life” understandable to us and, on the other hand, helps us as we apply those “sayings” in our lives to both our present and our eternal welfare. Should we not be grateful to Jehovah God and Jesus Christ for having that “slave” in our midst?

See what they did there?

 

[shepherdsword]

Read it in Greek….the first mention of “theos” is “ho theos”…..but the second mention has no definite article.…so just “theos”. According to Strongs Concordance “theos“ doesn’t just mean God (capital “G”)

Greek does not have an indefinite article, but English translations are full of them, so that the translation reads as we understand our language. To say that Jesus was “a god” is perfectly in keeping with the Greek understanding of the word “theos”….it just fights with a favorite doctrine.

Every major Greek scholar from RT Robert son to Vincent translates it and the word was God (no "a")
Greek often omits the article before predicate nouns that come before the verb (called Colwell's Rule), especially when the subject does have the article. That’s exactly what’s happening here.

• Subject: ὁ λόγος ("the Word")
• Predicate noun: θεὸς ("God")
• Order: Predicate before verb = article commonly omitted

This does not necessarily make it indefinite ("a god"). Instead, the lack of the article emphasizes the nature or essence of the subject and makes a distinction between two persons of the God head.
Your insertion of the indefinite is to prop up YOUR pet doctrine that Jesus was created.

There is no punctuation in Greek either, yet we see that too….sometime put in the wrong place, like Luke 23:43, where Jesus told the thief hung alongside of him….”I tell you today you will be with me in paradise”.
If the comma is placed after the word “you” that gives Jesus’ statement a completely different meaning to placing it after the word “today”…..so which is correct?


Not what the Greek says…look it up. Only one is “ho theos “ (only Yahweh is addressed with the definite article) which translators totally ignore in their desire to make Jesus into what he never was.

See above ...google Caldwell's rule

The great multitude are “before God’s throne” in the same way that the Israelites were when David was said to sit on God’s throne….the throne of David was God acting through his appointed human leaders…..as the rightful Sovereign Ruler of mankind, God is in heaven, but God was said to be representatively on earth in the form of David’s Kingship.

They weren't on the throne they were before it in Heaven. David's throne is not in heaven either and Christ will one day occupy it in the Millennial kingdom

Jesus was hailed as ”the son of David”…..was David God?
Rev 21:2-4 says that God will be ”with men”….humans. In the same way that he was “with Israel” who were on earth whilst their God was in heaven, represented by his appointed human servants.

Let's look at this mystery. Another clear reference to His preexistence and divinity:

Mt 22:42-45 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

So, what do you expect this “new heavens and new earth” to be….just out of curiosity…?

Have you ever heard of Planc time (10-43 second after the big bang) It is at the point of time when the 4 fundamental forces of the universe (electromagnetism, gravity, strong nuclear force and weak nuclear force) separated and established the laws of physics. It was at this point universal entropy was developed and consigned this universe to one day running down and losing all energy. I see God redoing the big band with an entirely new set of physical laws and entropy will be eliminated. A perfect, self-sustaining universe that will never run down and things never decay.

 

[Berean]

Every major Greek scholar from RT Robert son to Vincent translates it and the word was God (no "a")
Greek often omits the article before predicate nouns that come before the verb (called Colwell's Rule), especially when the subject does have the article. That’s exactly what’s happening here.

What do you do with 2 Corinthians 4:4, where Satan is referred to as "ho theos"?

 

[Keiw]

They love to twist the scriptures and misapply them. The two groups are not connected. Here's another example of butchering the scriptures from the March 1, 1978 Watchtower, page 25


See what they did there?

The JW,s are correct on the matter. The darkness says otherwise and the blind listen to the darkness.

 

[Keiw]

What do you do with 2 Corinthians 4:4, where Satan is referred to as "ho theos"?

View attachment 64390

Actually 2 Cor 4:4 begins with the word ho( the)--it did not call satan ho Theos as the darkness teaches.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Actually 2 Cor 4:4 begins with the word ho( the)--it did not call satan ho Theos as the darkness teaches.

According to Greek grammar as in English, “the” (“ho”) is the means by which we identify something or someone specifically…..so, referring to satan as “THE god” (ho theos) “of this world” identifies him as the god of choice for the masses of mankind who worship satan under so many different banners…..yet Jehovah/Yahweh is “THE God” of Jesus and his disciples…the only God that the Jews were told to serve.

 

[Berean]

Actually 2 Cor 4:4 begins with the word ho( the)--it did not call satan ho Theos as the darkness teaches.

Apparently, you didn't look carefully, Keiw ... it is indeed ho theos

 

[Keiw]

According to Greek grammar as in English, “the” (“ho”) is the means by which we identify something or someone specifically…..so, referring to satan as “THE god” (ho theos) “of this world” identifies him as the god of choice for the masses of mankind who worship satan under so many different banners…..yet Jehovah/Yahweh is “THE God” of Jesus and his disciples…the only God that the Jews were told to serve.

If your reasoning is correct then 2Cor 4:4 would start-The God capitol G.