Uncovering the Devil's Strategy

[Episkopos]

We make the devil's job easy when we accept a pre-digested set of beliefs based on a human consensus that appeals to our own proclivities and preferences. Truth seekers will ALWAYS stand apart...waiting on the Lord's judgment.

If any human position (based on certain bible verses taken out of context) were true in and of itself, then there would no longer be any need to be led by the Spirit. Just like the Cessassionists believe the gifts of the Spirit are no longer necessary because we have a physical book called the bible...credal beliefs and orthodoxy remove the need for spiritual guidance.

What is needed is ORTHOPRAXY....doing righteousness and believing the truth. Any reference in the bible about sound doctrine always concerns what we DO. What does our understanding of truth and sound doctrine make us DO?

If we are not loving, childlike, humble, God-fearing...etc...then all our understanding is empty...vanity. As Paul said, the more excellent way is to discover love and deeper reality that connects us to God and others who are also childlike in faith.

 

[Lizbeth]

There is a huge difference between church services, where the Bible is silent and doctrines ala Jude 1:3, Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Here I believe is God's idea of "church services", in the simplicity of Christ. In the simplicity of Christ, it is simply this:

1Co 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

But scripture also makes mention of how soon some were departing from the simplicity of Christ.....eventually into such things as rites and rituals, formal liturgies, putting on a performance and having an audience, with one man in a pulpit instead of whole body ministry with all parts of the body exercising their gifts and spiritual senses, as the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Christ) leads since Christ is Head of His church.

Yeah ecumenism, right.

A big AMEN to that sister. The spirit of the world is what joins/unites the world, because they all have that in common...it's like a low level form of witchcraft operating in the background, with everybody being on that same frequency. We are to remain separate and set apart from that unto God. Not flow together with them. "Be not unequally yoked with unbelievers but come out from among them and be ye separate, says the Lord". Unfortunately that spirit is very strong these days, operating as political correctness and trying to force and intimidate people to CONFORM to it....the devil trying to CONTROL people, which is a way of bowing down to him.

But I will say I agree with Epi that we must be careful of the "early church fathers" who came after the first apostles....I believe Paul when he said after his departure wolves would come into the church not sparing the flock. Wolves speak to the flesh.....flesh is always the problem, and creeps in subtley....men wanting to feed things like their ambition, pride, intellectual prowess, greed, political concerns, etc. I haven't studied the ECF's but my impression over the years is that there is a lot of mixture with them....some truth mixed in with untruths. Nevertheless, it has all been foreseen by the Lord and I believe He allows such things to test and try us....it wasn't for no reason that Jesus said He was sending us out as sheep among wolves.

 

[Lizbeth]

It is only pride when a person accepts praise for himself for it. No-one walking in the Spirit will do that, nor will they say they can never fall from it, rather than not encourage others to reach that stage of holiness by showing themselves as an example of it. Paul himself said that his hearers should imitate him. To qualify that he would have to say he was without sin so as not to mislead others.

No, I say there is more to these verses than you claim, and I am hoping for further insight which is being given.

This is because I saw, and read confirmation, that Paul was saying he had to class his loss of all things as gain:


'that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.'

He was describing what he had already gained/won Christ and was conformed to His death, power of His resurrection etc. When he said not that he had already perfect, meant that while he was 'reckoning' he had to admit that in the 'first blessing' he had to accept that he needed more. He was encouraging those who did not have ES to go on to perfection and reach for the prize of the calling (not martyrdom I concede,) but of ES.

He has done this in other places such as Romans 7 in speaking in the present when it was the past.


We are already adopted if in Christ ie not in the sealing state any more. So he says the body is redeemed at that time - adoption.


Again this is speaking of ES which no man can imagine what it is like. We do not sit in patience waiting for death.


All things are under His feet in each one who is ES, and the enemy is the fruit of sin and death in that person ie spiritual death for those not walking in the Spirit.

You can only have spiritual insight into these things if you have reached the perfection that we are to go on to.

I am now rather afraid you are reasoning yourself out of the revelation that had given you.

I think you might not be understanding me.....I agree that Paul was entirely sanctified, walking in the spirit, and amen counting all things as loss to gain Christ, but that his race wasn't finished yet in another more literal sense. Words of scripture are speaking in spirit and often speaking on more than one level at the same time. Yes I believe we with patience/perseverance do wait for our lives to end, longing for the inheritance, groaning within ourselves to depart and be with Christ and to be clothed with immortality etc......because we are not loving our lives in this world........as well as waiting and running the race with patience/perseverance for the fullness of the Spirit. There is always more to be gained and reached for even for those who are entirely sanctified, as both you and Epi have indicated/testified. Patience speaks to persevering, enduring.

 

[Hepzibah]

@Episkopos

loving, childlike, humble

You condemn yourself every time you speak, as one who admits he is not in the 'higher walk' yet scorns those who are just the same as you, in the flesh . As you say, you are what you do not by what you know.

Whatever, keep 'flowing' in the spirit, and maybe you will find out one day which spirit it was.

 

[Hiddenthings]

We make the devil's job easy when we accept a pre-digested set of beliefs based on a human consensus that appeals to our own proclivities and preferences. Truth seekers will ALWAYS stand apart...waiting on the Lord's judgment.

I’m not sure what you’re thinking, but there’s nothing in God’s Word that even remotely aligns with what you’re suggesting.

Devils job easier? Like, where do you get this?

 

[Hiddenthings]

The first mention of the devil is in Matthew 4:1, where Jesus was led into the wilderness to be tempted by the false accuser. This mirrors the same test faced by Israel, who was also led by the Spirit into the wilderness as a test of sonship, as seen in Deuteronomy 8:2,5

Not once in this chapter is the false accuser identified or defined, and you can be absolutely certain Israel under the law knew nothing at all about your make-believe creature!

@Episkopos, it’s quite presumptuous of you to create an entire fictitious backstory when you know there's no origin story to support it. Nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus encounter this so-called being, nor does he ever teach anything about such a creature.

We are speaking about a test of Sonship which was done on a national level with Israel and now on an individual level with Christ.

Hosea 11:1 (ESV): "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son."

Matthew 2:15 (ESV): "And remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, 'Out of Egypt I called my son.'"

This thread is nothing more than the imaginations of a man carried away with every wind of doctrine!

I'm guessing you're not very familiar with the subject, and if we went through each instance of the words 'devil' and 'Satan,' you wouldn't be able to provide a contextual explanation of what they actually mean.

Your OP is void of any Biblical meaning and may as well be speaking to Egyptian Mythology!

Maybe you have read too many Percy Jackson novels...

 

[Hepzibah]

Here I believe is God's idea of "church services", in the simplicity of Christ. In the simplicity of Christ, it is simply this:

1Co 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

This was to rebuke the disorder it brings.

But scripture also makes mention of how soon some were departing from the simplicity of Christ.....eventually into such things as rites and rituals, formal liturgies, putting on a performance and having an audience, with one man in a pulpit instead of whole body ministry with all parts of the body exercising their gifts and spiritual senses, as the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Christ) leads since Christ is Head of His church.

The Orthodox liturgy, was formulated by Chrysostom and is following the example of the Jewish service in the OT and I don't see anything wrong with it seeing Paul says there should be order. As a point of interest, the priest leading the service has his back on the people not like the western church. I am not Orthodox by the way.

A big AMEN to that sister. The spirit of the world is what joins/unites the world, because they all have that in common...it's like a low level form of witchcraft operating in the background, with everybody being on that same frequency. We are to remain separate and set apart from that unto God. Not flow together with them. "Be not unequally yoked with unbelievers but come out from among them and be ye separate, says the Lord". Unfortunately that spirit is very strong these days, operating as political correctness and trying to force and intimidate people to CONFORM to it....the devil trying to CONTROL people, which is a way of bowing down to him.

But I will say I agree with Epi that we must be careful of the "early church fathers" who came after the first apostles....I believe Paul when he said after his departure wolves would come into the church not sparing the flock. Wolves speak to the flesh.....flesh is always the problem, and creeps in subtley....men wanting to feed things like their ambition, pride, intellectual prowess, greed, political concerns, etc. I haven't studied the ECF's but my impression over the years is that there is a lot of mixture with them....some truth mixed in with untruths. Nevertheless, it has all been foreseen by the Lord and I believe He allows such things to test and try us....it wasn't for no reason that Jesus said He was sending us out as sheep among wolves.

I only read the ones who were fully in the Spirit and of course many were not. By the end of the first period there were not enough of them to go round as bishops. Since then it has gone to pot.

 

[Lizbeth]

This was to rebuke the disorder it brings.

Oh dear, I don't think so sister.....not if we look at the whole context and what Paul was teaching about spiritual gifts. He was even instructing them how to do this decently and in order....with everyone taking turns and yielding the floor to other members of the body, and how if there was a tongue that someone needed to interpret it, etc.

The Orthodox liturgy, was formulated by Chrysostom and is following the example of the Jewish service in the OT and I don't see anything wrong with it seeing Paul says there should be order. As a point of interest, the priest leading the service has his back on the people not like the western church. I am not Orthodox by the way.

Yes, it's one way in which Orthodoxy and Catholicism have things in common with first covenant ways, which were not the ways of the Spirit, but of the flesh and elements of the world. Under the new covenant we should be serving in the new way of the Spirit, in the simplicity of Christ. His way is a way.....of life and simplicity, not of formulas and formalities. Sister, please don't be offended, but I can see you've been very influenced by orthodoxy and ECF's, having been immersed with their writings for so long. Better to put everything aside, and begin afresh in the pure and unadulterated scriptures. When God led me out of the churches that is what He began doing with me.......I laid on the altar everything I had learned and been taught and asked Him to sift it all. And He began to do that, teaching me and opening scripture to me by the Spirit, without looking at them through the lenses of things I had heard in the churches. Also, we need the mind of Christ, which is a spiritual mind, not the intellectual mind of the natural man. The Lord, by His spirit, not the carnal mind, gives us ears to hear and eyes to see....spiritual sight/hearing...the renewing of our minds on any given topic to understand what the spirit is saying about it.

I only read the ones who were fully in the Spirit and of course many were not. By the end of the first period there were not enough of them to go round as bishops. Since then it has gone to pot.

I assume you only have their word on who was fully in the spirit or not, I think...and don't forget what Paul said about wolves.....we need to really take in and BELIEVE what he said there.......I'm pretty sure things started to go askew very quickly after the original apostles were gone, if even before he departed he was always having to do battle with things trying to creep into the church. I'm not even convinced that someone fully in the spirit means they have all understanding either. People can have legitimate spiritual gifts and anointings but still be askew when it is tainted by as yet uncrucified flesh.

 

[Hepzibah]

Oh dear, I don't think so sister.....not if we look at the whole context and what Paul was teaching about spiritual gifts. He was even instructing them how to do this decently and in order....with everyone taking turns and yielding the floor to other members of the body, and how if there was a tongue that someone needed to interpret it, etc.

He was pleading order through the letter, and pointed out that in their services EVERYONE had something to say which would be disorder and said what would be more orderly: 1 Cor 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. This was managable rather than all wanting to speak.

Yes, it's one way in which Orthodoxy and Catholicism have things in common with first covenant ways, which were not the ways of the Spirit, but of the flesh and elements of the world. Under the new covenant we should be serving in the new way of the Spirit, in the simplicity of Christ. His way is a way.....of life and simplicity, not of formulas and formalities.

This is what Quakers wanted, sitting till the Spirit inspired. They are all liberals nowadays yet Orthodoxy is growing fast especially amongst young men. I went to a service and it was jam packed with families of young children and young men. I am not saying that I agree with them in fact there are many things I do not accept hence my wilderness.

Sister, please don't be offended, but I can see you've been very influenced by orthodoxy and ECF's, having been immersed with their writings for so long. Better to put everything aside, and begin afresh in the pure and unadulterated scriptures.

That is where I started, an evangelical then a Calvinist with Bible only. It is not the Orthodox church per se it is the spirituality that has interested me - their teaching that man is fully sanctified in this life not the next. So many of them do not accept this teaching nowadays. I cannot wipe out my belief in this as I have been living in it.

When God led me out of the churches that is what He began doing with me.......I laid on the altar everything I had learned and been taught and asked Him to sift it all. And He began to do that, teaching me and opening scripture to me by the Spirit, without looking at them through the lenses of things I had heard in the churches.

I am miles away from Protestantism now and it has been an opening up of scripture at the deeper level

Also, we need the mind of Christ, which is a spiritual mind, not the intellectual mind of the natural man. The Lord, by His spirit, not the carnal mind, gives us ears to hear and eyes to see....spiritual sight/hearing...the renewing of our minds on any given topic to understand what the spirit is saying about it.


I assume you only have their word on who was fully in the spirit or not,

No I know the mind set of one who has been ES'ed and recognise the same level of understanding of scripture at the spiritual level.

I think...and don't forget what Paul said about wolves.....we need to really take in and BELIEVE what he said there.......I'm pretty sure things started to go askew very quickly after the original apostles were gone, if even before he departed he was always having to do battle with things trying to creep into the church.

Indeed but try to show me where ES was stood against - it did not happen and this was the main thing that opposed the truth.

I'm not even convinced that someone fully in the spirit means they have all understanding either. People can have legitimate spiritual gifts and anointings but still be askew when it is tainted by as yet uncrucified flesh.

Not full understanding of minor issues, and not salvivic. We never have it in full as God wants us to work together needing each other not lone wolves.

 

[Hepzibah]

@Lizbeth

Thought I would just mention something about the Orthodox liturgy service which has remained the same since the beginning.

Basically it is to lead people to the baptism of the Spirit where they will be entirely sanctified or walking without sin. It is all scripture with some singing by way of chanting. That is the purpose of it It is the same no matter which country.

So sad so few understand that, amongst Orthodox that is.

 

[Lizbeth]

He was pleading order through the letter, and pointed out that in their services EVERYONE had something to say which would be disorder and said what would be more orderly: 1 Cor 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. This was managable rather than all wanting to speak.

Well, Paul said to let all those things be done unto edifying. As well as decently in order by taking turns and not monopolizing the floor, yes.

This is what Quakers wanted, sitting till the Spirit inspired. They are all liberals nowadays yet Orthodoxy is growing fast especially amongst young men. I went to a service and it was jam packed with families of young children and young men. I am not saying that I agree with them in fact there are many things I do not accept hence my wilderness.

No need to sit around doing nothing but waiting the whole time, rather to pray and worship and enter into His courts with praise and thanksgiving. :)

The Orthodox liturgy, was formulated by Chrysostom and is following the example of the Jewish service in the OT and I don't see anything wrong with it seeing Paul says there should be order. As a point of interest, the priest leading the service has his back on the people not like the western church. I am not Orthodox by the way.

Just want to add to this a reminder that we are a kingdom of priests now....a priesthood of ALL believers as the scriptures say. With Christ as our High Priest and Head, who leads by the Spirit. The debate as to whether the priest should face the congregation or have his back to them is moot for the new covenant church. I can't picture the early church going from humble house to humble house to meet with the Lord and break bread conducting "formal" church services like that. In fact they were so informal that some people were making a meal out of the Lord's supper and had to be admonished.

Actually I think the synagogues of old had the right idea to some extent....they were seated in a circle with everyone on a fairly equal footing and able to see/hear each other - with the people, the men, taking turns standing up from their seats and contributing. Though nobody special in terms of religious hierarchy, just the son of a carpenter, Jesus took his turn in the synagogue to stand up and read from Isaiah. That doesn't mean there isn't to be any leadership....you need pastors and leaders to facilitate and guide the meetings, and discern and bring correction etc if anything is off. And those with preaching/teaching gifts, as well as prophets, I assume would just naturally have the floor more than others...they would usually have more to say I would think. And just a little example, once when I was at a gathering of believers and during it, at an appropriate time, the Holy Spirit gave me a couple of hymns to suggest and we all sang them and it was just so lovely. God will do things HIS way, not man's way, when He is allowed to and the Holy Spirit is not being quenched. His way is always better and so much more edifying.

That is where I started, an evangelical then a Calvinist with Bible only. It is not the Orthodox church per se it is the spirituality that has interested me - their teaching that man is fully sanctified in this life not the next. So many of them do not accept this teaching nowadays. I cannot wipe out my belief in this as I have been living in it.

I don't know what I am.....maybe a purist, at least that is my goal. Being taught by the Lord, not by man.

Not saying you have to give up that belief, although you never know (and I'm not saying I know) but some of it might need a little tweeking possibly. Whenever I have offered something back to the Lord, on the altar so to speak, He has been faithful to give it back to me purified.

Indeed but try to show me where ES was stood against - it did not happen and this was the main thing that opposed the truth.

Even if it wasn't stood against in principle, perhaps just the understanding of it could have gotten a little skewed possibly? Possibly some of their understanding might have become tainted by flesh and carnal mind....in an "if we think we know we do not yet know as we ought" kind of way..?

Not full understanding of minor issues, and not salvivic. We never have it in full as God wants us to work together needing each other not lone wolves.

ok, thanks for clarifying that.

 

[Lizbeth]

@Lizbeth

Thought I would just mention something about the Orthodox liturgy service which has remained the same since the beginning.

Basically it is to lead people to the baptism of the Spirit where they will be entirely sanctified or walking without sin. It is all scripture with some singing by way of chanting. That is the purpose of it It is the same no matter which country.

So sad so few understand that, amongst Orthodox that is.

Sister, it's great if anyone is leading believers to be walking without sin and to be baptized in the Spirit. I don't know anything about the Orthodox, just a general impression that it is unfortunately couched in ways that are of man and flesh and not the Spirit. That doesn't mean they don't have some truth though, at least in principle. And probably good intentions as far as that goes, I'm not judging them. Just from what I've discerned about them, they do have a better spirit than the RCC overall.

 

[Hepzibah]

Well, Paul said to let all those things be done unto edifying. As well as decently in order by taking turns and not monopolizing the floor, yes.


No need to sit around doing nothing but waiting the whole time, rather to pray and worship and enter into His courts with praise and thanksgiving. :)


Just want to add to this a reminder that we are a kingdom of priests now....a priesthood of ALL believers as the scriptures say. With Christ as our High Priest and Head, who leads by the Spirit.

1 Peter 2:9, But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a HOLY nation, God's special POSSESSION, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light..

Peter is speaking here of those who are HOLY, that God has full control over ie led by the Spirit and who have been Illumined and are now walking in the glorious light. These are the ones who are priests, not the ones who have gained the entry stage but still walking according to the flesh which means are still sinning, despite their desire not to (Romans 7).

The debate as to whether the priest should face the congregation or have his back to them is moot for the new covenant church.

The point for them is to show that whoever is leading is unimportant and so does not display his face but rather faces the altar like others who stand too in a group for the service. That speaks of humility. In fact the laity have a much greater role in EO churches.

There are some things I really love about EO but they are so much in error over other things, especially ES, and will not accept me because of my views on baptism and some other things.

I can't picture the early church going from humble house to humble house to meet with the Lord and break bread conducting "formal" church services like that. In fact they were so informal that some people were making a meal out of the Lord's supper and had to be admonished.

But that was in the beginning where must needs. I am not saying that one must have 'formal' church. However, men being as they are, they need some sort of structure like this to continue in spiritually lean times.

Actually I think the synagogues of old had the right idea to some extent....they were seated in a circle with everyone on a fairly equal footing and able to see/hear each other - with the people, the men, taking turns standing up from their seats and contributing. Though nobody special in terms of religious hierarchy, just the son of a carpenter, Jesus took his turn in the synagogue to stand up and read from Isaiah. That doesn't mean there isn't to be any leadership....you need pastors and leaders to facilitate and guide the meetings, and discern and bring correction etc if anything is off. And those with preaching/teaching gifts, as well as prophets, I assume would just naturally have the floor more than others...they would usually have more to say I would think. And just a little example, once when I was at a gathering of believers and during it, at an appropriate time, the Holy Spirit gave me a couple of hymns to suggest and we all sang them and it was just so lovely. God will do things HIS way, not man's way, when He is allowed to and the Holy Spirit is not being quenched. His way is always better and so much more edifying.

Amen and lovely experience for you. The Holy Spirit must have freedom to do it God's way of course, but in reality there are times when things are pretty lukewarm.

I don't know what I am.....maybe a purist, at least that is my goal. Being taught by the Lord, not by man.

Indeed it is what is best, but we all have down times. Going back to Quakerism, I think that George Fox was the most enlightened man in the west and he was taught entirely by God as he wandered England looking for some one to help him find The Way once he was in Purification but no-one helped him and he turned entirely to God and went through the Holy Baptism. He was the nearest westerner to early teachings and emphasised being led by the Spirit. An early Quaker Robert Barclay, their theologist and his book Apology is the best writing I think in the west. He admits that he was not ES but knew Fox was.

It is wonderful how God uses our suffering.

Not saying you have to give up that belief, although you never know (and I'm not saying I know) but some of it might need a little tweeking possibly. Whenever I have offered something back to the Lord, on the altar so to speak, He has been faithful to give it back to me purified.

I have already been on the altar and accepted the stripping in my life which took everything away from me, family, health, career, riches, and all of my confidence in my reasoning. I have had to relearn everything - all that I understood from 17 years of Bible study on top of everything I knew about life.

I found that regarding doctrines, it started with just having that feeling that something was missing for example on Substitutionary Atonement Theory and so I would start to look for answers and when it came for the time when I would be ready to go deep, the answers came whereby all doubts would go and I knew I had the truth which I later found confirmations.

If you mean me saying that salvation is at the second blessing, then I have gone into it so deeply that I cannot go back to where I was.

Even if it wasn't stood against in principle, perhaps just the understanding of it could have gotten a little skewed possibly? Possibly some of their understanding might have become tainted by flesh and carnal mind....in an "if we think we know we do not yet know as we ought" kind of way..?

The opposite for me.

ok, thanks for clarifying that.