Do the Ten Commandments still apply under the new covenant today?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

LoveYeshua

Active Member
Sep 25, 2024
465
141
43
Quebec
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I think what is interesting, is that when Jesus refers to the ten commandments, to the rich young ruler, He changes the order of the commandments:

Jesus says Mark 10:19"You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[a]”

But the commandments are Deuteronomy 5:7-21"
7 “You shall have no other gods before me.

8 “You shall not make for yourself an image

11 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

12 “Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy,

16 “Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God has commanded you, so that you may live long and that it may go well with you in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

17 “You shall not murder.

18 “You shall not commit adultery.

19 “You shall not steal.

20 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

21 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbor’s house or land, his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

I think every believer has an order of the ten commandments that they would prefer (which the Holy Spirit gives them)
Jesus was not trying to change anything but simply list a few of the ten commandments so the rich young man knew what he was talking about. jesus said elsewhere they would not change so it is certain, we should not try and wiggle out of it, the ten commandments ARE the covenant as God himself said so.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2018
27,563
14,923
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States

Do the Ten Commandments still apply under the new covenant today?​


Yes.

Gods WAYS are “mysterious”…. UNTIL…
Man BECOMES “MADE” privy to Gods “UNDERSTANDING”.

The “mystery” regarding the “LAW” :
* Is for man to Discover…
IF, WHEN, HOW, WHY / WHAT LAW “APPLIES” to the man.

(Laws ARE categorized;
* Commands, Statutes, Common, Precepts, Penal;
* Laws ARE “Positive and Negative”.

Commands…come directly from God; WITH Gods PROMISE of a Positive Consequence…
IF man Fulfills Gods Command.

Statutes…ARE “expressly WRITTEN Laws. Written, Copied, Distributed.

Common Laws… “capture” the Traditions, Rituals, Festivals, Remembrances, Established FOR “specific” individuals.

Precepts…ARE broadly “Behaviors, Between and Among men”, which reveals … Positive or Negative .. Reactions / Consequences… from and between and among men.

Penal Laws Are; (Aka) curse Laws. Negative Consequences.

Positive Laws… Approved / Authorized by God… to Result In a Goodly and Just Positive Consequence.

Negative Laws… Approved / Authorized by God…to Result in a Just Negative Consequence.

Ancient Prophets…were Gods “Servants”…to and for the Benefit of themselves AND “other” men.

While “their works (teaching / preaching) were admirable”…
*** Frustration, slow going, FOR the Prophets “audience of Listeners (other men)”… was often chaotic, demands to SEE “this Invisible God”.

Enter in…
Gods Word, IN a perfect body God Prepared For “men TO Hear AND SEE, to Speak, Teach, and Give (Stubborn, stiff-necked) man A Visible Example.”

The LESSON AND POINT, regarding This Topic…
Jesus … the Example.
Did What? “Fulfilled” the Positive Law.
How many Times? Once.
Once “a man” Fulfills the Law…
WHO “fulfills His Promise”? God
WHAT IS: Gods Promise?
~ To Eternally Be WITH that man, and that man Eternally Be with God.
HOW does God “fulfill His Promise”?
~ Of, By, WITH “His Supreme Power” TO “Enter “WITH-IN that man”… that which “Nothing what-so-ever, can reverse, deflect, corrupt, take away, undo Gods Power To KEEP that man WITH God “Forever”.
WHAT IS Gods POWER Called?
~ Christ
By WHO and WHAT means IS the Power of God (Christ) entered With-IN a man?
WHO?… The Lamb of God.
WHAT?…Baptism.
WHO? …Records (writes) a Record of such Fulfilled Promise?
- The Lamb of God.
WHERE is such Record Kept?
- Gods Kingdom / Heaven.
WHAT is this record Kept IN?
- The Lambs Book of Life.
CAN this record ever be “blotted OUT”, erased, reversed, rejected, corrupted, undone?
- No.
WHO has Authority and Power TO, MARK, Seal, Redeem, Claim, Take, Raise up, to the Lord… they WHOSE “Name IS Recorded IN the Lambs Book of Life?”
- Christ the Lord Jesus.

Bottom line…
A man WHO “Fulfills the Law”…
Like our Example… Fullfills the Law ONCE.
The “Promise From the Lord God” IS “HE”, by, through, of His Word of Promise and Authority and Power…Keeps the Law Fulfilled IN that man Forever.
The premise regarding the acronym OSAS.

Glory to God, Just, Faithful and True,


Taken
 
  • Like
Reactions: LoveYeshua

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
13,716
2,848
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
paul was speaking of sabbath(s) plural not the 4th commandment, there are more than 10 different sabbaths in the law of Moses, please read your bible before accusing others of setting traps.

God do ask His people, Jews or gentiles to follow the commandments. it is your choice to listen or not!

The word in the NT Greek is 'sabbaton' which means sabbath, the SAME word from the Hebrew for the weekly sabbath day per the old covenant.

What you are not understanding with what Apostle Paul said there, is that during this present time of the Church, we are not held to strict ritualistic worship like was required by the old covenant. That is why Paul said let no many judge us regarding those things. It is for this present time only. That is why he then said verse 17...

Col 2:16-17
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
KJV


In Christ's future Millennial reign when He returns, then... we all will follow those things. But for now, during this present time, those are only a 'shadow' of things to come under Christ's future reign.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
13,716
2,848
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Let Jesus take care of you and teach you he did promise he would send the Holy Spirit to teach you and guide you.

He already has, and does, and only someone with a holier-than-thou attitude would be so naive to say what you are saying.

Rom 3:23-24
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24
Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
KJV


Let me ask you; are you justified in Christ by your attempt to keep His commandments, or are you justified by His Grace, which means something that we CANNOT earn?

If you do not yet understand that trying to keep His commandments, even though we sometimes fall short, is the BEST that we can do, then you show you have fallen back into the Jew's religion of thinking you are justified by law keeping, instead of Christ's Grace. The former state is a non-Christian, but the latter state is a Christian. You need to decide which one you belong to.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
13,716
2,848
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well the greasy gracers to go around telling everyone that it's not possible to lose your salvation and all your future sins are already forgiven even before you commit them.

So why wouldn't people think Christians can live in sin and still be saved?

If what the greasy grace teachers is true then it doesn't matter if Christians live in sin cause it's all good right?

That problem comes from many of them listening to preachers who preach Grace without Biblical instruction of what to do when we slip up and sin.

This was one of the main reasons why Apostle John taught what he did in 1 John 1 about repentance to Christ Jesus for 'future sins'.

There is no such thing as a perfect follower of Jesus Christ in the literal without sin sense. ONLY Lord Jesus came in the flesh and had no sin, because He is God The Son, Immanuel God with us. In Romans 7 Apostle Paul made it clear that we ALL (except Lord Jesus) are made subject to the 'law of sin' in our fleshy members, and that means at times we are... going to slip up and do future sin.

So what are we to do when future sin happens to us? And it will, because we all have been concluded under sin so Christ's Salvation would be to those who by Faith believe on Him.

That's the answer John gives us in 1 John 1. We are to REPENT to Jesus, asking Him forgiveness when we slip up. Then He is Just to forgive us and cleanse us. That means a WALKING RELATIONSHIP with Lord Jesus Christ, daily. And per Luke 11, how did Jesus show us how to pray? The 'Our Father...' prayer He showed His disciples, and us, to pray, includes asking Him forgiveness of our sins. That means He recognized that we would STILL have future slip ups into sin, and need to repent. How many Churches in Asia did Jesus give a Message to telling them to repent?

Understanding this is not difficult at all. But those Grace preachers who leave this Biblical part out, and I'm not saying they all do, well, those who do are so over-focused on the concept of Christ's Grace because it really brings 'em into the Church, meaning a bigger membership, mega-church, etc., they get wrapped up into all that when they should not.

I even ask some on men's doctrines of Hyper-Grace if their church still holds Communion with Christ, and they can't answer me on that! What does that show? It reveals some of the Hyper-Grace movement type churches no longer hold Communion, which is supposed to be a time of reflection with Lord Jesus, working our problems out with Him, and remembering His death on the cross for us.
 

LoveYeshua

Active Member
Sep 25, 2024
465
141
43
Quebec
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The word in the NT Greek is 'sabbaton' which means sabbath, the SAME word from the Hebrew for the weekly sabbath day per the old covenant.

What you are not understanding with what Apostle Paul said there, is that during this present time of the Church, we are not held to strict ritualistic worship like was required by the old covenant. That is why Paul said let no many judge us regarding those things. It is for this present time only. That is why he then said verse 17...

Col 2:16-17
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
KJV


In Christ's future Millennial reign when He returns, then... we all will follow those things. But for now, during this present time, those ;
are only a 'shadow' of things to come under Christ's future reign.
see here "sabbath days"

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
plural again paul is referring to the other sababths that rare no longer necessary.
 

LoveYeshua

Active Member
Sep 25, 2024
465
141
43
Quebec
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
He already has, and does, and only someone with a holier-than-thou attitude would be so naive to say what you are saying.

Rom 3:23-24
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24
Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
KJV


Let me ask you; are you justified in Christ by your attempt to keep His commandments, or are you justified by His Grace, which means something that we CANNOT earn?

If you do not yet understand that trying to keep His commandments, even though we sometimes fall short, is the BEST that we can do, then you show you have fallen back into the Jew's religion of thinking you are justified by law keeping, instead of Christ's Grace. The former state is a non-Christian, but the latter state is a Christian. You need to decide which one you belong to.
Listen, Jesus did say otherwise he said clearly to follow the commandments, you have no excuse not to do so. at the end it is your choice. you have been warned.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
13,716
2,848
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Read again carefully, It is Peter Not Paul what was chosen by GOD to go to the gentiles.

Act 15:7 After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you that the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

please note here DAY(S) not the 4th commandments! you do not know your scripture.

No, Peter was only 1st in being given the example that Salvation would go also to the Gentiles. You need to keep reading your Bible, because of the following which shows Peter's commission in The Gospel was to the circumcision, i.e., his Jewish brethren, while Paul's was to the Gentiles (like I showed per what Jesus said in Acts 9).

Gal 2:7-8
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me,
as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8
(For He That wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
KJV
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
13,716
2,848
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Listen, Jesus did say otherwise he said clearly to follow the commandments, you have no excuse not to do so. at the end it is your choice. you have been warned.

Who says that I am not... following His commandments? You, just because YOU THINK you are perfect and without sin?? No, your speech is as a hypocrite.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
13,716
2,848
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
see here "sabbath days"

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
plural again paul is referring to the other sababths that rare no longer necessary.

In the Greek it is SABBATON (NT:4521, from OT:7676). Look it up. I'm not going to do your homework for you.
 

LoveYeshua

Active Member
Sep 25, 2024
465
141
43
Quebec
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
To the best of my knowledge, taking an overview of this topic, we first have to ask when was the law (including the Sabbath) given…..and to whom?

Did the faithful ancient servants of the one true God observe a Sabbath before the law was given? Think of Noah and Job and Abraham, who are featured strongly in the OT as faithful servants of their God. Is there any mention of a Sabbath observance for them?

Before the sons of Jacob (Israel) became the nation of Israel, (who were freed after hundreds of years of slavery in Egypt) did any servant of God observe a Sabbath? I can find no evidence of such.

When God gave his law to his people, they had to agree to its terms, which at Mount Sinai, they did….so reading through, we see that God not only gave them the Sabbath commandment, as part of the original 10, but reinforced it by giving them a double amount of manna on the day before, so that they would have no reason or excuse to break it.

Exodus 16:25-30…
”Moses said, “Eat it today, for today is a sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field. Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the sabbath, there will be none.” It came about on the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none. Then the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions? See, the Lord has given you the sabbath; therefore He gives you bread for two days on the sixth day. Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” So the people rested on the seventh day.” (NASB)

Exodus 31:12-14, 16-17
”The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. . . . .So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.’ It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.” (NASB)

The Israelites did not hold a Sabbath in Egypt before their release, and demonstrated by their conduct that this was something new for them.

Deut 5:15….
”You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to Observe the Sabbath Day.” (NASB)

So from my studies, it appears that the 10 Commandments were the backbone of all the laws that were added later….these were the most important things that the nation of Israel were to keep. But this law was incumbent on Israel alone….God did not give his law to gentiles. (People of the nations)

So when Jesus came, he was sent only to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”, not to the gentiles because of God’s promise to Abraham…Israel, as his “seed“, would have first option of gaining entry into the coming Kingdom of God, which the Jews saw as an entirely earthly arrangement.

Part of God’s promise to Abraham, included a blessing for “all the nations”, but to his descendants first. (Gen 22:17-18; Rom 2:10-11)

So, did Jesus and all of his first disciples observe the Sabbath? As they were all Jews or Jewish converts, they were obligated to observe the Law, which included the Sabbath. But once Christ died, having instituted the New Covenant on the night before his death, the old covenant ended, and this new covenant was not just for Jews, but through the apostle Peter, God opened the way for gentiles to become “Christians”, not needing to convert to Judaism first, thus not making them subject to the Law of Moses.

We read about the circumcision issue that arose because some Jewish Christians wanted their gentile brothers to observe the Law and become circumcised. This was creating a lot of division, so the question was taken to the Apostles and older men in Jerusalem for a decision to end the controversy. After much debate and prayerful consideration, there was a decision made and it was declared to all the congregation by letter so that there would be unity and peace achieved in the decision that was final.
Reading Acts 15:1-31, we see that the decision handed down made no mention of a Sabbath for gentiles…..the apostles mentioned only those things that gentiles might still have a problem with….

”For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.” (Acts 15:28-29 NASB)

If the Sabbath was to be imposed on gentile believers, it too would have been included in the “essentials” that they mentioned….but Christ’s teachings contained all the rest. He lived and died, a Jew, under Law.

Were the Jewish Christians then prevented from observing the Sabbath? NO! As it was something that they had always done, and God’s law through Moses was applied only to Israel, there was no law against it, but it was no longer a law that applied to all Christians. If people wanted to hold a day of rest, that was up to them….but it was no longer a law for Christ’s disciples. Which is why Paul wrote….

“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.” (Col 2:16-17 NASB)
The Sabbath was included among the things that were a “shadow of things to come”.
A much more important Sabbath was to be observed, as Jesus is called “Lord of the Sabbath” (Matt 12:8)….so we need to know what this greater Sabbath is….
you have it all wrong, Christ never did abolish the commandments, he did ask those who love him to follow the commandments, plenty of proof of that in scripture but you will find none that say not to follow the commandments or even the sabbath! IN ALL biblical texts they ALL FOLLOWED the commandments AND the sabbath!! can you show me the contrary?
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
13,716
2,848
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
you have it all wrong, Christ never did abolish the commandments,...

Did I ever say that Jesus abolished HIS commandments? Are you hearing 'voices' or something?

But IF... you are trying to say Jesus did NOT abolish the handwriting of ordinances in God's law, then that makes you a LIAR, because that FACT is written right there in the Colossians 2 Scripture I posted, which means you did not really bother to read it. Sounds like you are here to push JUDAISM, and not Christianity.
 

LoveYeshua

Active Member
Sep 25, 2024
465
141
43
Quebec
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
In the Greek it is SABBATON (NT:4521, from OT:7676). Look it up. I'm not going to do your homework for you.
In Colossians 2:16 (NKJV), the verse reads:


“So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,”

What Sabbaths are Being Referenced?


The "sabbaths" mentioned in Colossians 2:16 are generally understood to refer not to the weekly Sabbath (the seventh day of the week, as commanded in the Fourth Commandment, Exodus 20:8-11), but to a broader category of ceremonial sabbaths that were part of the Jewish ritual calendar. Here's why:

  1. Ceremonial Sabbaths (e.g., Leviticus 23:1-44)
    • The annual sabbaths or festivals mentioned in the passage are part of the Jewish ceremonial law. These included various feasts (like the Passover, Feast of Weeks, Day of Atonement, Feast of Tabernacles, etc.) which were celebrated with specific days of rest and worship.
    • Sabbaths could also refer to these special feast days which often fell on days other than the weekly seventh-day Sabbath. For example, the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) was a high holy day and was considered a type of Sabbath, a day of solemn rest.
  2. The New Moon Festival
    • The new moon celebration was another ritual observed by Israel, marking the beginning of a new month. It was a time of feasting, sacrifices, and rest, and it is sometimes referred to as a "sabbath" in certain parts of Scripture (e.g., 1 Samuel 20:5, 2 Kings 4:23, Amos 8:5).

Why the Distinction?


In Colossians 2:16, Paul is addressing a situation where some people in the early Christian community, likely from a Jewish background, were still insisting that Christians must observe these Old Testament ceremonial laws, including the special sabbaths. Paul's point is clear: Christ has fulfilled the ceremonial laws, and the observance of these days is not a requirement for Christians. The believer's standing before God is based on faith in Christ, not adherence to the ritual laws.

Paul emphasizes that these rituals and observances were "a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ" (Colossians 2:17). In other words, the Old Testament feasts, Sabbaths, and festivals were types and shadows pointing forward to the ultimate fulfillment found in Jesus Christ. With Christ's work of redemption, believers are not bound by these ceremonial laws but are free in Him.

Summary of the Sabbaths in Colossians 2:16:

  • Weekly Sabbath: The 7th-day Sabbath is not the primary focus of this verse, though it would fall under the broader category of "sabbaths."
  • Ceremonial Sabbaths: The sabbaths here likely refer to the annual feast days and other ritual observances in the Jewish law, such as the Passover, Day of Atonement, Feast of Tabernacles, and others that included rest days or Sabbaths associated with the festivals.
  • New Moon Festivals: These were also part of the Jewish calendar, marked by rest and celebration.
Paul's argument is that these ceremonial sabbaths are no longer binding on Christians, who are called to find their rest and fulfillment in Christ alone, rather than in the observance of these ritual days. The days and festivals were shadows of the reality found in Jesus.

The "sabbaths" referred to in Colossians 2:16 are not referring to the weekly Sabbath (the 7th day of the week) as commanded in the Fourth Commandment, but rather to the ceremonial sabbaths tied to the Jewish feasts and the new moon festivals. These days were part of the Old Covenant system, which was fulfilled in Christ, and Paul’s teaching is that Christians are not obligated to observe these laws.

IMPORTANT: Deuteronomy's Test for Prophets

In Deuteronomy 13:1-5 and Deuteronomy 18:20-22, God gives clear tests for determining whether a prophet is true or false:
  • Deuteronomy 13:1-5: If a prophet or dreamer of dreams urges you to follow other gods, or if their prophecy leads you away from the commandments of God, they are to be considered a false prophet. Even if their prophecy comes true, they are to be rejected if they lead people away from God’s revealed law.
  • Deuteronomy 18:20-22: A true prophet speaks in the name of the Lord. If what the prophet says does not come to pass or leads people to follow other gods or break God's commandments, they are a false prophet.

So, if Paul were teaching against God's commandments, as recorded in the Old Testament law, particularly the Fourth Commandment regarding the Sabbath, he would indeed be in serious conflict with these standards, as Deuteronomy clearly says that anyone who contradicts God's commandments, especially a prophet claiming to speak for God, would be considered false.

Was Paul Teaching Against the Commandments?

Here's where context comes in. Paul is not, in fact, teaching against God’s moral commandments—such as the Ten Commandments, including the Fourth Commandment regarding the Sabbath. The key is understanding that Paul's letters, including his teachings on the law and the Sabbath, are often addressing the ceremonial law (laws related to the rituals, festivals, sacrifices, etc.) and not the moral law.

The Difference Between Moral and Ceremonial Law

  • Moral Laws (e.g., the Ten Commandments) reflect God's eternal principles for how we should live. These include laws on worshiping only God, honoring parents, not committing murder or adultery, and so on. The Sabbath command (Exodus 20:8-11) is moral in nature, as it reflects God's design for human rest and the principle of keeping one day a week holy, dedicated to God.
  • Ceremonial Laws (e.g., feasts, sacrifices, clean and unclean foods, etc.) were specific to Israel and pointed to the coming of Christ. These laws were temporary, symbolic, and ultimately fulfilled in the person and work of Jesus Christ. After Jesus' death and resurrection, Christians are no longer bound by the ceremonial laws, because Christ is the fulfillment of those types and shadows (see Colossians 2:16-17 and Hebrews 10:1).
Paul teaches that Christ fulfilled the ceremonial law (e.g., sacrifices, festivals, dietary restrictions), and Christians are no longer required to observe those parts of the law because they were types and shadows of Christ. However, Paul still upholds the moral law as a reflection of God’s will for how Christians should live.

Regarding the Sabbath, there is no indication in Paul’s teachings that he is rejecting the moral principle of rest or the holiness of the seventh day as established by God. In fact, Jesus and Paul both emphasize that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Sabbath rest:
  • Matthew 11:28-30: Jesus says, "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."
  • Colossians 2:16-17 (NKJV): "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come; but the substance is of Christ."

What Paul is teaching here is that Christ is the fulfillment of the ceremonial aspects of the Sabbath (which includes the feasts, sacrifices, and special holy days). Therefore, these ceremonial observances (such as the specific days of rest tied to festivals or the annual Sabbaths) are no longer required for Christians. But the moral principle of rest and honoring God still stands as part of Christian living.

If we read Paul’s letters in their context, it becomes clear that he is not teaching against God's moral commandments, including the Sabbath command. He is teaching against legalism—the idea that observance of the ceremonial laws is necessary for salvation or a requirement for the Christian life. He is not rejecting the moral law but showing that Christ has fulfilled the ceremonial law.


In Colossians 2:16-17, Paul is warning against the belief that Christians must continue observing these ceremonial sabbaths (such as the weekly Sabbath, festivals, and new moon festivals) in order to be faithful to God. These were merely shadows that pointed to Christ. Paul was not undermining the moral law of God; rather, he was clarifying that the ceremonial law (which includes specific sabbaths) is fulfilled in Christ.

Paul’s teachings on the law, including his statements about Sabbaths in Colossians 2:16, do not make him a false prophet. He is not advocating against the moral commandments (like the Fourth Commandment regarding the Sabbath), but rather he is teaching that Christians are not bound by the ceremonial laws which were a temporary shadow of the true rest found in Christ.

Paul's teachings are consistent with the idea that the moral law remains valid, while the ceremonial law (including specific sabbaths related to Jewish feasts) has been fulfilled in Jesus and is no longer binding on Christians. Therefore, he does not contradict the moral commandments of God, and his teachings are in line with the New Covenant principles established by Christ.
 

Big Boy Johnson

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2023
4,420
1,681
113
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is a difference between the whole list of laws god gave to Israel and the ten commandments. the ten commandments are a general summary for all nations the other laws were Jew specific. They are what made his own nation different from the rest. The gentile nations are only grafted in to the holy nation if submission to the authority to Christ is given.

Yes and that would be the Low of Christ not the law of Moses.

The Law of Christ is what New Covenant believers are to live under thru submitting themselves to the leading of the Holy Spirit based on God's Word and it's the Holy Spirit that empowers believers to walk upright before the Lord which includes the 10 Commandments (God's moral law) which are present in the New Covenant under the Law of Christ.




So what are we to do when future sin happens to us? And it will, because we all have been concluded under sin so Christ's Salvation would be to those who by Faith believe on Him.

I got born again and I'm a new creature in Christ Jesus

So I'm not a participant in being one of the we in "we all have been concluded under sin"

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


I can only speak for myself as I see a lot of folks proudly proclaiming they are sinners and they sin ever day in though word and deed.

They should get born again and filled with the Holy Spirit and live according to God's Word!




That's the answer John gives us in 1 John 1. We are to REPENT to Jesus, asking Him forgiveness when we slip up. Then He is Just to forgive us and cleanse us. That means a WALKING RELATIONSHIP with Lord Jesus Christ, daily.

Correct. But, it should be a very rare occurrence for any believer to sin if they are being led by the Holy Spirit based on what the Lord teaches in His Word.




I even ask some on men's doctrines of Hyper-Grace if their church still holds Communion with Christ, and they can't answer me on that! What does that show? It reveals some of the Hyper-Grace movement type churches no longer hold Communion, which is supposed to be a time of reflection with Lord Jesus, working our problems out with Him, and remembering His death on the cross for us.

If they did take communion they would be doing it unworthily bringing damnation to themselves not understanding the Lord's body.
(1 Corinthians 11:26-32)
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
7,410
3,981
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
you have it all wrong, Christ never did abolish the commandments, he did ask those who love him to follow the commandments, plenty of proof of that in scripture but you will find none that say not to follow the commandments or even the sabbath! IN ALL biblical texts they ALL FOLLOWED the commandments AND the sabbath!! can you show me the contrary?
The Bible says that “Christ is the end of the law” (Rom 10:4)…but if you read on in Romans Ch 10 you will see why natural Israel no longer figures in God’s purpose….

Rom 10:5-13…ESV….
”For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.”

Paul taught that belief in Jesus as Messiah, and that God raised him from the dead, were the two necessary components for salvation….the two primary things about Jesus that the Jews rejected.
Paul also mentioned that there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, so because gentiles were not obligated to keep the law of Moses, they did not need to observe the Sabbath. It wasn’t illegal to do so, but Christians were not obligated to keep the written law. Jewish Christians were now freed from “the curse” of the Law.

Gal 3:10: 13-14…ESV…
”For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”. . . .Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

And, in quoting Joel 2:32, Paul also highlights another glaring fault with natural Israel…their failure to honor God’s name, missing from their speech now for quite some time. The name of the “LORD” there is “Yahweh” so we have to be calling on the name the God to whom Jesus prayed, saying “hallowed be thy name”…..his Father’s name.

Jesus taught his Jewish disciples to abide by the law, which was to be in operation until the new covenant was instituted. What followed with that new covenant was ‘the law of love’….as Jesus said there are only two commandments for his Christian followers to obey…..

Matt 22:35-40……ESV…
“And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Jesus’ last statement there highlights the fact that all of God’s laws including the 10 Commandments were based on those two commandments…..which were the foundation of the whole law…..you could not break a single one without breaking one of both of those commandments.

So when Christ ended the written law, he did not end the principles upon which the law was based….Christians were still to hold to those principles, not written on parchment, but on their hearts.

Can you find any verse of Scripture that says when Christ ended the law, that he made an exception of the Sabbath?
Can you tell me why Jesus called himself “Lord of the Sabbath”, (Matt 12:1-8) understanding that there were many Sabbaths that the Jews were under obligation to keep? And Jesus conducted many of his miracles on the Sabbath, which angered the legalistic Pharisees.……so, what Sabbath is Jesus “Lord” of?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: TazzJazz

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
13,716
2,848
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I got born again and I'm a new creature in Christ Jesus

So I'm not a participant in being one of the we in "we all have been concluded under sin"

As long as you are still in the flesh you are subject to sin, even as a 'born again' Christian. If you pay attention to what Lord Jesus said in John 3 about being born again, you should realize being born again is of our 'spirit' by The Spirit, and not our flesh. Our flesh is still subject to the law of sin, like Apostle Paul taught in Romans 7.

What you appear to be heeding are those who push men's doctrines called Hyper-Grace, which is who the 'once saved, always saved' doctrines spring from. That's just another group that likes to deceive themselves while leaving what God's Word actually teaches.

And I notice that you failed to comment anything about the prayer Jesus told us to pray in Luke 11 which has asking forgiveness of our sins in it. You just bypassed that.

If they did take communion they would be doing it unworthily bringing damnation to themselves not understanding the Lord's body.
(1 Corinthians 11:26-32)

That above statement is a huge revelation of the error you are in. Your statement implies that just the ACT of taking communion with Christ is doing it unworthily, when Apostle Paul never said any such idea.

The unworthily manner of taking communion by the brethren there is what Paul was talking about, for the brethren were basically treating it like a social dinner, instead of a time of retrospection and silent communion with Lord Jesus, and remembering His sacrifice.

1 Cor 11:20-22
20 When ye come together therefore into one place,
this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
KJV

1 Cor 11:26-30
26
For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till He come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh
unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
KJV

Those in Christ ARE STILL TO HOLD COMMUNION WITH JESUS CHRIST. Only a devil would claim we have no need to do that anymore.

And one can... hold communion in their own home, in private.
 

Big Boy Johnson

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2023
4,420
1,681
113
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As long as you are still in the flesh you are subject to sin, even as a 'born again' Christian.

I'm not "in the flesh"

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you


This is what many still need to learn... allowing the Holy Spirit to live IN them.

Galatians 5:16
Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.





being born again is of our 'spirit' by The Spirit, and not our flesh.

1 Thessalonians 4:4
Every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor


Those allowing the Holy Spirit to live in them being led by the Holy Spirit will control their body and will not be pleasing the flesh

Romans 8:13,14
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.




What you appear to be heeding are those who push men's doctrines called Hyper-Grace

No, I'm in direct opposition to false grace and do not heed anything the ear ticklers are peddling.




And I notice that you failed to comment anything about the prayer Jesus told us to pray in Luke 11 which has asking forgiveness of our sins in it. You just bypassed that.

Yeah, IF we sin, as in IF

Some grow and become mature in their walk with the Lord becoming skillful in the Word of righteousness and it's a very rare occurrence they they do anything sinful.

If they do, the Holy Spirit convicts them of it immediately and they immediately forsake and confess their sin to obtain mercy and be cleansed from ALL unrighteousness (Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9)



That above statement is a huge revelation of the error you are in.

Lots of people don't accept all that the Lord says in His Word

That's too bad for them!




Those in Christ ARE STILL TO HOLD COMMUNION WITH JESUS CHRIST. Only a devil would claim we have no need to do that anymore.

Before taking communion they need to examine themselves, judge themselves and forsake / confess their sins which they don't do these days since the false grace teachers tell them all their future sins are automatically forgiven no need to repent or confess their sins.

Those following the false grace teachers are taking communion unworthily and are bringing damnation upon themselves because they take communion while they are still actively living in sin.

The so called "security in sin gospel" is false gospel that send people to hell while they pretend they are still Christians as they bring reproach upon the Lord and the Body of Christ going around living sinful lifestyles telling everyone they are a Christian when they are not.

This is why sinners out in the world don't take Christians (or Jesus) seriously because when they look at Christianity they see it as nothing but a clown show.
 

LoveYeshua

Active Member
Sep 25, 2024
465
141
43
Quebec
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The Bible says that “Christ is the end of the law” (Rom 10:4)…but if you read on in Romans Ch 10 you will see why natural Israel no longer figures in God’s purpose….

Rom 10:5-13…ESV….
”For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.”

Paul taught that belief in Jesus as Messiah, and that God raised him from the dead, were the two necessary components for salvation….the two primary things about Jesus that the Jews rejected.
Paul also mentioned that there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, so because gentiles were not obligated to keep the law of Moses, they did not need to observe the Sabbath. It wasn’t illegal to do so, but Christians were not obligated to keep the written law. Jewish Christians were now freed form “the curse” of the Law.

Gal 3:10: 13-14…ESV…
”For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”. . . .Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

And, in quoting Joel 2:32, Paul also highlights another glaring fault with natural Israel…their failure to honor God’s name, missing from their speech now for quite some time. The name of the “LORD” there is “Yahweh” so we have to be calling on the name the God to whom Jesus prayed, saying “hallowed be thy name”…..his Father’s name.

Jesus taught his Jewish disciples to abide by the law, which was to be in operation until the new covenant was instituted. What followed with that new covenant was ‘the law of love’….as Jesus said there are only two commandments for his Christian followers to obey…..

can you show me where in scripture these NEW laws of the covenant are listed? to me scripture explains perfectly well the new covenant and what changed see Jer 31"31-33
Matt 22:35-40……ESV…
“And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Jesus last statement there highlights the fact that all of God’s laws including the 10 Commandments were based on those two commandments…..which were the foundation of the whole law…..you could not break a single one without breaking one of both of those commandments.
thise 2 are a summary of the 10 commandments, all commantaries i have seen point to this but I knwe this before I read them, a condensed version does not negate the ten commandments that Jesus was Truly teaching as is clearly in scripture.
So if Christ ended the written law, he did not end the principles upon which the law was based….Christians were still to have those principles, not written on parchment, but on their hearts.

Auntie so many here refuse to follow the commandments Jesus spoke about and was teaching, if they refuse to follow them how can be in their heart?
Can you find any verse of Scripture that says when Christ ended the law, that he made an exception of the Sabbath?
Can you tell me why Jesus called himself “Lord of the Sabbath”, (Matt 12:1-8) understanding that there were many Sabbaths that the Jews were under obligation to keep? And Jesus conducted many of his miracles on the Sabbath, which angered the legalistic Pharisees.……so, what Sabbath is Jesus “Lord” of?
Auntie;

Jhn 5:43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you have not received Me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will receive him.

you believe paul over Jesus and forgot his words?

Jhn 5:44 How can you believe if you accept glory from one another, yet do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

Jhn 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, in whom you have put your hope.

Jhn 5:46 If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me.

Jhn 5:47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?”

you should live by every word that comes from Christ Jesus is the only way to eternal life

John 14:6 (NKJV):

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
This verse clearly states that Jesus is the exclusive way to the Father and, by implication, to eternal life.

John 4:13-14 (NKJV):
Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

John 7:37-38 (NKJV):
On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”

Jhn 8:12 Once again, Jesus spoke to the people and said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows Me will never walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
7,410
3,981
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
can you show me where in scripture these NEW laws of the covenant are listed? to me scripture explains perfectly well the new covenant and what changed see Jer 31"31-33
Yes, I already did…..Jesus said that…” On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets”.

Jeremiah prophesied….
”Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” (Jer 31-33 ESV)

So a new covenant was expected, and Jesus was the one who instituted it on the night before his death.
It wasn’t to be like the old one with a lengthy list of rules and punishments….the new one was to be written on hearts and governed by conscience.

In what state was “the house of Israel” (spiritually speaking) when Jesus walked the earth? Was he sent to correct “the house of Israel”, whom Jeremiah, even back then, (over 500 years before the birth of Christ) said they broke their covenant with their God? It’s a sad and sorry history, but not without its lessons. We actually learn more about God from how he dealt with his often disobedient people, than when they actually did as they were told. (which wasn’t often, and not for long)

The law was conditional right from the outset…God told his people gathered at Mount Sinai that it required their obedience to his laws….only then would they receive his blessings. How often did God bless his people, compared with the number of times he punished them and forced them to repent? He should never have had to do that, but his purpose for Israel was not fulfilled until they produced the Messiah.

The law was a “curse” to Israel because they could never keep it. What was the purpose of giving his people a law that constantly condemned them? It was a daily reminder of their sinful condition, and their need of redemption. The sacrifices at the temple were also a constant reminder of their need for a savior, because those animal sacrifices didn’t ever cover sin permanently, needing to be repeated constantly.
thise 2 are a summary of the 10 commandments, all commantaries i have seen point to this but I knwe this before I read them, a condensed version does not negate the ten commandments that Jesus was Truly teaching as is clearly in scripture.
Not just the 10 Commandments, but the whole “law and the prophets”

Paul also wrote…at Romans 7:4, 6-7….
“Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.. . . .But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet. (ESV)

He quoted one of the 10 Commandments….not separating them from the rest of the law.
Auntie so many here refuse to follow the commandments Jesus spoke about and was teaching, if they refuse to follow them how can be in their heart?
That is a very valid point…there is much that Jesus taught that is not practiced by many in Christendom. We see even here on these boards how much these Christians are “part of the world”, (John 17:16: 18:36) in how involved they are in their nation’s politics. The rulership of this world was handed over to the devil by God in order to prove how ‘good’ it was going to be, with mankind now saddled with sin and death and a world ruler who led them into nothing but trouble. (Luke 4:5-7) And the apostle John also left us in no doubt as to who is ruling this world….?

1 John 5:19…
”We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.“ (ESV)

How much of “the whole world” is NOT under satan’s control? What the world does is really none of our business, we have no real citizenship in any nation, because we are citizens of God’s kingdom, and there is no dual citizenship. We are temporary residents in his world, while we wait for the new one to come….but hopefully not for much longer.

Nothing happens in this world that we need to fix or change….God has everything under his watchful eye.
Auntie;

Jhn 5:43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you have not received Me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will receive him.

you believe paul over Jesus and forgot his words?

Jhn 5:44 How can you believe if you accept glory from one another, yet do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

Jhn 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, in whom you have put your hope.

Jhn 5:46 If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me.

Jhn 5:47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?”

you should live by every word that comes from Christ Jesus is the only way to eternal life

John 14:6 (NKJV):

This verse clearly states that Jesus is the exclusive way to the Father and, by implication, to eternal life.

John 4:13-14 (NKJV):

John 7:37-38 (NKJV):


Jhn 8:12 Once again, Jesus spoke to the people and said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows Me will never walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”
I’m not sure if any of those answer the question I asked……which was…
”Can you tell me why Jesus called himself “Lord of the Sabbath”, (Matt 12:1-8) understanding that there were many Sabbaths that the Jews were under obligation to keep? And Jesus conducted many of his miracles on the Sabbath, which angered the legalistic Pharisees.……so, what Sabbath is Jesus “Lord” of?”

Unless you know the answer to that question not much else will make sense….it’s all part of the big picture…
 
  • Like
Reactions: TazzJazz