You know you are in trouble when your doctrine not only forbids investigation, but you yourself have no desire for it.
That is legalistic deadness.
No hunger
No desire for truth.
PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS
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That is legalistic deadness.
No hunger
No desire for truth.
No intelligence.
No thoughtful intelligent debate.
More parroting postrib rapture workbook sentences.
Post tribulation rapture adherents have about 10 or 15 talking points.God never said the rapture would happen before Darby
.
One of their talking points is, that John Darby invented the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine. They have other similar talking points that have absolutely nothing to do with the Bible, and absolutely nothing to do with doctrine, but they look back to these ancient Dead men, that the Catholic Church was formed after, who had tremendous error.
Error so Bad that Irenaous had to write a book called ,"against heresies", of these dead ancients.
Postrib rapture adherents, have as their main building block of the post tribulation rapture doctrine , ancient Dead men with limited revelation.
....oh and yes Darby is not in the bible.
That word appears in CATHOLIC anti pretrib talking points.
Hmmmmm
Sounds like the modern postribbers.
Consistent they are.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Different wording, SAME EVENTS.
You only show your deception by not recognizing Jesus showed His coming is AFTER the tribulation, including when He gathers His saints (Matt.24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).
That His angels help in that ought to make more sense to you, since Paul says Jesus will bring the 'asleep' saints with Him (from heaven) when He comes per 1 Thess.4:13-16. And the Matt.24:29-31 Scripture shows the same idea about His gathering of the asleep saints, from one end of heaven to the other.
Looks like you are well... prepared to fall away to the false-Messiah that comes first, thinking he will be Jesus. That's who the fake pre-trib rapture doctors are preparing their followers for.
In 1Thessalonians4:14-18, at God the Father's direction (verse 14), Jesus brings from heaven the souls of Christians that have died (their bodies asleep in the grave) for the resurrection of those bodies. The resurrected bodies out from the earth are then reunited with the souls that Jesus brings with Him from heaven.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
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There is no group of angels gathering anyone in the resurrection/rapture. The dead bodies of them who died in Christ will be reconstituted from the dust of the ground at the command of Jesus speaking. Resurrected into incorruptible bodies. And reunited with their souls from heaven that Jesus brings with him.
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Davy
Well-Known Member
He was speaking of tribulation saints, not the saints taken in the rapture which will happen pre-wrath
Since you believe you will be going thru the Great Tribulation, get ready to get your head cut off!
That 'tribulation saints' idea is FROM THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY SCHOOL. YOU HAVE BEEN EXPOSED YET AGAIN... SHOWING THAT YOU DO BELIEVE IN A FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE!
That 'tribulation saints' idea FALSELY ASSUMES that some will convert to Jesus DURING the "great tribulation", when that is NOT written in God's Word.
There is NO such 'tribulation saints' idea written of in God's Word. That is a made-up idea from the pre-trib rapture school. God's Word reveals that how each soul believes going into the "great tribulation" will remain in that belief UNTIL Lord Jesus returns. This is why Rev.1 and Zech.12, and Luke 23 reveals the DECEIVED JEWS will appear in shame when they see Jesus coming, and they will wish for the hills and mountains to fall on them because of their shame! Thus deceived going in, and in shame coming out of the great tribulation.
God's Word then reveals that ONLY those who REMAIN FAITHFUL IN CHRIST will be hunted down and persecuted during the "great tribulation". That means Christ's true Church, Christ's elect. Many brethren who DO NOT remain faithful going through the "great tribulation", and do NOT wait on Christ Jesus' coming after it, will instead FALL AWAY to the coming false-Messiah, thinking that false one is Christ.
Thus God's Word reveals during the "great tribulation" one is either DECEIVED, or NOT DECEIVED at the very start of it, and will remain so until Jesus does return.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Okay, so you agree that the resurrection/rapture event involves a gathering of Christ's people. So, why did you act as if 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 is not related to a gathering of Christ's people and tried to differentiate the passage from Matthew 24:29-31 in that way?
Yes. Why do you ask? Do you acknowledge that verses 9 and 11 relate to the resurrection/rapture event, also? Do you acknowledge that the context of what Paul said in verse 9 is in direct relation to the wrath he described in verses 2 and 3?
1 Thessalonians 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
On the day Jesus comes, or which no one knows the day or hour and that will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night, we will be gathered and brought to safety to meet Him in the air while sudden destruction comes down on unbelievers from which they will not escape.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No, I'm expecting God to change my body and the bodies of all believers from corruptible to incorruptible at the last trumpet when Jesus returns and then for angels to take us (the church, Christians) to meet Christ in the air at which point He will then destroy all of His enemies (1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, Revelation 14:14-20). And then the judgment of all people will occur, as described in Matthew 25:31-46.
Davy
Well-Known Member
NOPE! That's the old Jew's tradition called 'Soul Sleep', the idea that when we die we are literally asleep in the casket in the ground. No, not what The New Testament teaches, nor even The Old Testament, simply because Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 says at flesh death, our flesh goes back to the elements of the ground where it came from, but our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. And Lord Jesus in Matt.10:28 said to not fear those who can kill our flesh body but NOT our soul, which reveals our soul continues on to heaven after our flesh dies.
And also especially 2 Corinthians 5, Apostle Paul taught that if our earthly house were suddenly dissolved, we still have a building from God, not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Paul was pointing to our spirit body that dwells inside our flesh body. At flesh death, the "silver cord" of Eccl.12 is severed, and our spirit body with soul departs our flesh, with our flesh going back to the earthy elements. WE WILL NEVER NEED A FLESH BODY AGAIN AFTER THAT.
You would do well to study what The New Testament Books teach instead of relying on the old Jewish traditions of those who still think they live in the old covenant. Their Soul Sleep tradition comes from their 'fleshy' interpretation of the Genesis 2:7 verse.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Here are LORD JESUS' TALKING POINTS. Go ahead, KEEP DENYING what Jesus said:
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
If that was a different event than Matthew 24:29-31 with Jesus doing all of the gathering of His people to Himself "in the air", then why would He use angels to do the gathering at the later event instead of just doing it Himself?
Davy
Well-Known Member
THAT IS HILARIOUS!!!
Someone who FLAT DENIES JESUS' OWN WORDS SHOWING HIS FUTURE COMING AND GATHERING OF HIS CHURCH WILL BE AFTER... THE TRIBULATION, and they try to claim they know what The Bible teaches?@!?%#*?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You have very bad reading comprehension skills. While I agree with you about post-trib and disagree with his pre-trib view, he did not indicate a belief in soul sleep there. Read what he said again. He said this:
Can you not see there that he said Jesus will bring the souls of Christians who have died bodily with Him from heaven? That means he believes they are in heaven now and not sleeping. He said their bodies are asleep in the graves, not their souls. Referring to their bodies as being asleep is the same as saying they are dead, but calling them "asleep" gives more of an impression that their bodies are not dead forever, but will be resurrected.Douggg said:
Davy
Well-Known Member
Since you believe you will be going thru the Great Tribulation, get ready to get your head cut off!
You won't be laughing when you find yourself appearing at my feet under Christ's future "thousand years" reign. I think I may ask Lord Jesus for you to be under my rod of correction then.
We all see that verse.
Your one post wrath gathering is not the rapture of the church.
You do not have a verse do you?
Maybe you do.
Post it.
I can wait.
You got a single verse.!
But your single verse is post wrath and is heaven gathering by angels.
Maybe try again.
But your main, and most likely only verse is a fail.
Just post us a real postrib verse.
Stop attacking people's faith and character.
Try and open a bible and go step by step in your one or 2 verses to convince us inferior believers.
( of some postrib rapture)
The Light
Well-Known Member
You got one thing right. The Church is gathered after the tribulation. THE CHURCH IS GATHERED FROM HEAVEN AFTER THE TRIBULATION.
We return with the Lord as there is also a gathering from the earth.
Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Those that are gathered from the earth that get victory over the beast are singing the song of Moses as these are obviously of the twelve tribes.
Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the pretribulation rapture, part of Israel will have its blindness removed.
There are two raptures. The Church is raptured pretrib and the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman is raptured immediately after the tribulation.........before the 7th seal one year wrath of God.
The woman, Israel, remains on earth during the wrath of God in a place of protection.
No, I was not describing "soul sleep". I don't believe in soul sleep. I believe that when a Christian dies, their soul goes to heaven to be with the Lord. And that their bodies return to the dust of earth, just as God said in Genesis.
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