PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

[David in NJ]

I am close to putting you on ignore.
Hopefully you will step up, and not keep doing what you do.
I am not here to play your games.

AGREE - i will refrain from sarcasm = Will you also?

 

[amigo de christo]

God's Math Formula that leads to Salvation: 1+1=2

God's Math Formula from the OT = Joseph

I have one . TWO FOLDS , jew and gentile , made ONE IN CHRIST .
those be the saved ones who BELEIVED IN HIM and recieve salvation .
The formula for salvation is , BELEIVE YE ON JESUS THE CHRIST .
Lots of ones come next so bear with me .
ONE KINGDOM heavenly , ONE ISRAEL of GOD beleiving jews and gentiles
ONE heavenly MOUNT ZION , ONE LORD ONE GOD ONE FAITH ONE BAPTISIM
ONE SPIRIT
ONE BODY ONE WIFE ONE BRIDE OF CHRIST .
THOSE WHO BELEIEVE ON HIM .
ONE GOD AND FATHER OF US ALL my friend .
THOSE who LOVE GOD LOVE CHRIST and THOSE WHO LOVE CHRIST would have LOVED HIS SAYINGS . real simple .

 

[amigo de christo]

AGREE - i will refrain from sarcasm = Will you also?

In this world ye shall have tribulation .
He who endures to the end the same shall be saved .
and now a word from paul long ago
CONCERNING this very tribulation upon us
was writing to a church and reminding them
and told them WHY he had sent timothy and titus unto them .
TO be sure they had not been moved by perseuctions
that we are appointed unto them .
In fact we both know what he writes in his second letter to the church in thessalonica .
AND MAN it as do other places SURE DO PROVE the RETURN OF CHRIST is a ONE TIME EVENT
and that we do suffer tribulation and in fact its a righteous judgment of GOD
that we do suffer for the KINGDOM
but also that GOD would recompense wrath against those WHO DID SO
ON THE DAY OF THE LORD WHEN WE GO home and HE LAYS DOWN HIS WRATH .
IN fact
very clear it is in revelation .
WHO Does the beast come against . THE SAINTS , not the left behind aints .
THE SAINTS . The devil has LONG waged war on the church and used men to do so . HE aint been sleeping

 

[amigo de christo]

Well said. The claim by pretribs that the church on earth is not referenced at all between Revelation 4 and Revelation 19 is completely absurd.

Friend many are the deceptions within much of christendom now .
AND the big one to merge all of the decieved within christendom
with all those false decieved religoins for the idea we can have peace n safety
and that all religoins serve the same GOD , IS TAKING SO many within christendom captive to the lie .
SO many are running blindly to men for a solution
And have no idea its of anti christ to lead them to what they all beleive will usher peace n safety unto the world .
PEACE N SAFETY . promised by anti christs .
WHO darn sure have made the testimony of GOD VOID and call HIM a liar
as they reject THE TESTIMONY HE GAVE OF THE SON and holler ALL religoins serve the same GOD differently
LETS JUST LOVEY DO . well that LOVE darn sure aint of GOD
and while it hollers this is the way to PEACE N SAFETY
SUDDEN DESTRUCTION shall come upon them all and THEY WONT BE ESCAPING . it draws nigh .

 

[The Light]

You know there is such thing as spiritual redemption and that the first Christians were called "a kind of firstfruits" (James 1:18) and their souls are in heaven now and that God's throne is in heaven, don't you?

Yes, I am aware that some early Christian were called "a kind of firstfruits"

Nonsense. Where does scripture every say that we will escape temptation and testing? Never! You are directly contradicting Jesus's prayer for His people...

John 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

Oh. This tired old, misused scripture.

Would it make any sense for Jesus to pray anything else. How about something like..........Father, please rapture my apostles to heaven so no one will be around to spread the Gospel.

 

[The Light]

WHO Does the beast come against . THE SAINTS , not the left behind aints .
THE SAINTS . The devil has LONG waged war on the church and used men to do so . HE aint been sleeping

Those that get victory over the beast sing the song of Moses as they are Jews

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

The Church is already in heaven before the seals are opened. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in blindness is removed from part of Israel.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

It is the seed of the woman, Israel, which are the 12 tribes across the earth, that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony Jesus Christ.

Revelation 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[WPM]

The Church is already in heaven before the seals are opened. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in blindness is removed from part of Israel.

And where exactly is your supposed future rapture in Revelation? You stating something means nothing.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Luke 17:26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man.

That's not speaking of the 3 year reign of the anti-christ so it's not applicable to our discussion

Jesus is speaking of His second coming, not the rapture that takes place sometime after the man of sin is revealed.
The day of the Lord is when Jesus returns to setup His Kingdom on earth for 1000 years.

Big difference between the days of the Son of Man verses the 3 years the devil is running the show which are two totally different times

 

[The Light]

And where exactly is your supposed future rapture in Revelation? You stating something means nothing.

Well, it's like this:

I can show you where we are told to watch, in Revelation 3 because if we do not watch, we will not know what hour He will come.

I can show you in Revelation 3 where He says He comes quickly and don't let anyone take your crown.

I can show you where John is caught up in Revelation 4, though John is not the Church but only a member of the Church.

I can show you 24 elders with crowns in Revelation 4 that proves that Jesus has come, and His reward was with Him.

And I can show you the kings and priests that are the Church in heaven in Revelation 5, before the seals are opened.

But what I can't do is show you the exact verses where the Church is raptured. There is a reason for this. If you have wisdom, you can put all the scriptures together and come to the proper conclusion that the Church is raptured. Simple.

If God pinpointed His return as you seem to need, then it would be pretty hard to come in an hour that you think not. You would find no need to be ready. You would not be watching. There has to be 5 foolish virgins that are short of oil. It's pretty easy to figure out who they are.

Now your turn. Where is your rapture in the book of Revelation..........Chapter and verse?

 

[Marvelloustime]

Friend many are the deceptions within much of christendom now .
AND the big one to merge all of the decieved within christendom
with all those false decieved religoins for the idea we can have peace n safety
and that all religoins serve the same GOD , IS TAKING SO many within christendom captive to the lie .
SO many are running blindly to men for a solution
And have no idea its of anti christ to lead them to what they all beleive will usher peace n safety unto the world .
PEACE N SAFETY . promised by anti christs .
WHO darn sure have made the testimony of GOD VOID and call HIM a liar
as they reject THE TESTIMONY HE GAVE OF THE SON and holler ALL religoins serve the same GOD differently
LETS JUST LOVEY DO . well that LOVE darn sure aint of GOD
and while it hollers this is the way to PEACE N SAFETY
SUDDEN DESTRUCTION shall come upon them all and THEY WONT BE ESCAPING . it draws nigh .

@amigo de christo

 

[WPM]

Well, it's like this:

I can show you where we are told to watch, in Revelation 3 because if we do not watch, we will not know what hour He will come.

I can show you in Revelation 3 where He says He comes quickly and don't let anyone take your crown.

I can show you where John is caught up in Revelation 4, though John is not the Church but only a member of the Church.

I can show you 24 elders with crowns in Revelation 4 that proves that Jesus has come, and His reward was with Him.

And I can show you the kings and priests that are the Church in heaven in Revelation 5, before the seals are opened.

But what I can't do is show you the exact verses where the Church is raptured. There is a reason for this. If you have wisdom, you can put all the scriptures together and come to the proper conclusion that the Church is raptured. Simple.

If God pinpointed His return as you seem to need, then it would be pretty hard to come in an hour that you think not. You would find no need to be ready. You would not be watching. There has to be 5 foolish virgins that are short of oil. It's pretty easy to figure out who they are.

Now your turn. Where is your rapture in the book of Revelation..........Chapter and verse?

LOL. So you have nothing? You are building a major doctrine on thin air. This is what we have been saying you years.

You argue that the absence of any mention of "the Church" between Revelation 4 - 19 proves they is no Church on earth. But you have no mention of the Church in Revelation 4. That must mean they are not in the picture. This is one of your main arguments. Yet you are adamant that the 24 Elders represent the whole Church in heaven. This is one of your fundamental beliefs.

But how can they so easily spiritualize the 24 Elders and insist on them being “the Church” but rubbish the idea that the Church is called “saints,” “them which are saved,” the “redeemed,” the “brethren,” the “chosen (or elect), and faithful,” “servants,” those “in / with white robes,” “kings and priests,” “souls,” “fellowservants,” “woman,” “the temple,” “the dead which die in the Lord,” “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark,” “he/him that overcometh,” “he that watcheth, and keepeth their garments,” “my people,” “his people,” “much people,” “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation,” “the bride,” “the Lamb's wife,” “they that do/keep God’s commandments,” “the armies which were in heaven” and “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life”?

Talk about twisting Scripture! This is totally ridiculous!

They cannot talk straight because to do so would expose what they have been taught.

 

[David in NJ]

That's not speaking of the 3 year reign of the anti-christ so it's not applicable to our discussion

Jesus is speaking of His second coming, not the rapture that takes place sometime after the man of sin is revealed.
The day of the Lord is when Jesus returns to setup His Kingdom on earth for 1000 years.

Big difference between the days of the Son of Man verses the 3 years the devil is running the show which are two totally different times

Without the 2nd Coming of Christ you have no Resurrection.

With out the Resurrection you have no rapture.

 

[WPM]

That's because we will escape the hour of temptation that will come on all the world.

You make it up as you go.

Revelation 3:7-13: “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.”

Pretribs suggest that “keep thee from the hour of temptation” is referring to the catching away of the saints from the earth at the coming of Christ. However, there is not the slightest mention of the Lord’s appearing in the wording of this expression nor is there even a hint of a rapture of the saints. In fact, there is also no mention or inference of an end-time 7-year tribulation in the verse. It is rather speaking of the preservation of these first century Philadelphian saints from the existing evil of their day. What Pretrib infuses into this passage doesn’t add up, make sense or fit the context.

If a rapture was indeed the actual reward for this early church’s faithfulness, then, why did they not experience it? After all, they are commended for being obedience and faithfulness. You cannot divorce the reward from the obedience that earned the reward here. Pretribs say the reward is the rapture. Well: did the Philadelphians receive this reward? Evidently not; neither will they. That particular local church is long gone, and they will not be raptured at the second coming in the future but rather resurrected (as the dead in Christ). But the resurrection is nothing particular to Philadelphians; it is an event that every single church in Revelation would one day experience. It is something that all the dead in Christ will enjoy. But none experience a rapture 2,000 years ago.

• There is no mention of the Church (as the collective body of Christ) here. You add that unto the text.
• There is no mention of a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10. It must be forced into the text.
• There is no mention of a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10. It must be forced into the text.
• There is no mention of a 3rd coming in Revelation 3:10. It must be forced into the text.

Pretribulationalists render this promise irrelevant, meaningless and pointless, as none of the 7 churches went through your so-called end-time tribulation and none of them were raptured. In your rational, every single church in history apart from your supposed 7-year tribulation period will automatically be rewarded by not being on earth for this period (regardless of their faithfulness or unfaithfulness). That is ridiculous. In reality, according to your argument, the Philadelphian church was not rewarded.

 

[The Light]

LOL. So you have nothing? You are building a major doctrine on thin air. This is what we have been saying you years.

LOL. You mean you got nothing.

SO WHERE IS YOUR RAPTURE IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION?????????????????????????

You argue that the absence of any mention of "the Church" between Revelation 4 - 19 proves they is no Church on earth

Did is say proves? No.

However, is the Church mentioned in Revelation 6-19? No

. But you have no mention of the Church in Revelation 4. That must mean they are not in the picture. This is one of your main arguments. Yet you are adamant that the 24 Elders represent the whole Church in heaven. This is one of your fundamental beliefs.

LOL. Please provide the post where I said the 24 elders are the Church.

The 24 elders with crowns are proof that Jesus has come.

The Church is the kings and priest of Revelation 5

But how can they so easily spiritualize the 24 Elders and insist on them being “the Church”

Sorry. The 24 elders are not the Church. They have crowns and are proof that Jesus has come.

but rubbish the idea that the Church is called “saints,” “them which are saved,” the “redeemed,” the “brethren,” the “chosen (or elect), and faithful,” “servants,” those “in / with white robes,” “kings and priests,” “souls,” “fellowservants,” “woman,” “the temple,”

Because Word tells us who these saints etc. are.

“the dead which die in the Lord,” “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark,” “he/him that overcometh,”

Try using Word. It clear that those that get victory over the beast are singing the song of Moses...........they are Jews.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Talk about twisting Scripture! This is totally ridiculous!

No need to twist anything. The saints after the pretribulation rapture of the Church are singing the song of Moses. God has His attention to His chosen.

They cannot talk straight because to do so would expose what they have been taught.

Oh Boy.

Just a diversion because you can't answer your own question.

Where in the book of Revelation is your rapture.........CHAPTER AND VERSE?

 

[The Light]

You make it up as you go.

Revelation 3:7-13: “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.”

Pretribs suggest that “keep thee from the hour of temptation” is referring to the catching away of the saints from the earth at the coming of Christ. However, there is not the slightest mention of the Lord’s appearing in the wording of this expression nor is there even a hint of a rapture of the saints. In fact, there is also no mention or inference of an end-time 7-year tribulation in the verse. It is rather speaking of the preservation of these first century Philadelphian saints from the existing evil of their day. What Pretrib infuses into this passage doesn’t add up, make sense or fit the context.

If a rapture was indeed the actual reward for this early church’s faithfulness, then, why did they not experience it? After all, they are commended for being obedience and faithfulness. You cannot divorce the reward from the obedience that earned the reward here. Pretribs say the reward is the rapture. Well: did the Philadelphians receive this reward? Evidently not; neither will they. That particular local church is long gone, and they will not be raptured at the second coming in the future but rather resurrected (as the dead in Christ). But the resurrection is nothing particular to Philadelphians; it is an event that every single church in Revelation would one day experience. It is something that all the dead in Christ will enjoy. But none experience a rapture 2,000 years ago.

• There is no mention of the Church (as the collective body of Christ) here. You add that unto the text.
• There is no mention of a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10. It must be forced into the text.
• There is no mention of a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10. It must be forced into the text.
• There is no mention of a 3rd coming in Revelation 3:10. It must be forced into the text.

Pretribulationalists render this promise irrelevant, meaningless and pointless, as none of the 7 churches went through your so-called end-time tribulation and none of them were raptured. In your rational, every single church in history apart from your supposed 7-year tribulation period will automatically be rewarded by not being on earth for this period (regardless of their faithfulness or unfaithfulness). That is ridiculous. In reality, according to your argument, the Philadelphian church was not rewarded.

Here comes the onslaught of question after question. Don't have time to read it now.

Try answering my ONE question, that was YOUR question.

Where is your rapture in the book of Revelation? You have no answer.

 

[WPM]

However, is the Church mentioned in Revelation 6-19? No

I will give you 15 solid reason why this reasoning is ridiculous and should be swiftly rejected.

(1) The word “Church,” as in the elect redeemed (born again) Church, is not mentioned anywhere in Revelation. There are only references to the local churches (which includes saved and unsaved) in Asia Minor in the last book in the Bible.
(2) The whole book of Revelation was written to local churches in Asia Minor 2,000 years ago for the expressed purpose of encouraging them in their hour of trial.
(3) Words, terms, titles and descriptions that are repeatedly used elsewhere in the New Testament to describe the Church of Jesus Christ are used regularly in Revelation 4 to 19 to describe the true Church of Jesus Christ.
(4) The apostate “churches” and their phony believers miss the rapture and enter this supposed 7 year tribulation, according to Pretrib – but the non-mention of the apostate “churches” must prove they are not on earth either. Where have they gone to?
(5) The word “Church” is not found in Revelation 4 in the Pretrib rapture
(6) The word “Church” is not found in the heavenly passages between Revelation 4 and 19. Using Pretrib logic, then they must not be in heaven either.
(7) The word “Church” is not found in Revelation 19 for the Pretrib 3rd Coming. So, they cannot be part of that supposed event.
(8) The word “Church” not found in Revelation 20 in the millennium. They cannot therefore be part of that period of time.
(9) The word ‘“Church” not found in Revelation 21 in the eternal state. They cannot therefore be part of the eternal state.
(10) The word ‘“Church” not found in many places throughout the New Testament.
(11) The word ‘“Church” is not found in all the popular Pretrib proof texts.
(12) What about the absence of the word “Jew” and “Hebrew” from Revelation 4-19, and the absence of the word “Israel” after Revelation 7.
(13) What about the non-mention of the popular Pretrib term ‘tribulation saints’ in Revelation 4-19?
(14) Whilst “the Church” has been caught up at the coming of Christ, even Pretrib teaches that local churches continue to exist after the rapture! Why are these churches not mentioned?
(15) Does the strange silence of the word “Christian” in Revelation 1-3 not prove Christians are not present or in view?

 

[WPM]

Now your turn. Where is your rapture in the book of Revelation..........Chapter and verse?

There are several recaps in Revelation that cover the same last days intra-Advent era and that culminate with the one final future climactic return of Christ. The detail is the same. The only way you can deny the correlation and comparison between the 7 trumpets and the 7 vials is bias theology that requires you to deny the evidence. As a former Pretribber, and as a former Police Officer, I am convinced that the Amil Idealist view (that of 7 recaps in Revelation) is biblically and evidently compelling. Please compare. By comparing the seven trumpets to the seven vials we see a remarkable detailed, yet symbolic, picture of God’s sovereign dealings with wickedness and the wicked. It relates to the period sandwiched between Christ’s two Advents since he made a show openly of the devil at Calvary. In comparing the two, we view the same events from slightly different camera angles. Although, coming from divergent angles, the parallels are clearly indisputable.

John was simply shown a number of parallel visions one after the other, all culminating in the climactic coming of Christ. Each parallel concentrate on the same time period and the symbolic ongoing events that occur throughout, viewing them from slightly different camera angles. Sometimes God is speaking primarily of the elect, sometimes He is majoring on the wicked. Sometimes He is describing the righteous in heaven, sometimes the righteous on earth. Sometimes it is the humans that reside within the kingdom of darkness, sometimes it is the invisible demonic host that reside there. Although coming from divergent angles, the parallels are carefully interwoven like a linen cloth. Often to establish the meaning and format of the book, we have to meticulously and patiently fit the jig-saw pieces together in order to see the unfolding picture. That is not to say we have a full revelation of this peculiar book, but we can have an insight into this inspired book.

The parallels reveal the increasing degrees of intensity of the intra-Advent conflict between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness, culminating in a great final gathering for battle and the climactic return of Christ to obliterate all rebellion.

I will focus in on the end of each cycle that I have proposed as time and space doesn’t allow me to perform a complete exposition of Revelation.

CYCLE 1 (received on Patmos)

Seven Churches (Ch 2-3).

Although addressed to 7 local churches to sort out local problems. The constant theme of the coming Christ and His kingdom pervades throughout.

CYCLE 2 (received in heaven)

Seven Seals (Ch 6-8:1)

The seventh seal is silence in response to the destruction of the world in the sixth seal.

Revelation 6:12-7:17 gives us the detail of the sixth seal. The first part of the seal (that which is contained within Revelation 6) is given over to describing the wrath of ‘the day of the Lord’ and His judgment upon the wicked. Whereas, the second part of the seal (which takes up the whole of Revelation 7) is given over to describing that which relates to the elect of God on the day of the Lord – the day of His Second Coming.

The first aspect, is outlined in Revelation 6:12-17, says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

Before the aforementioned destruction is implemented the Lord has to instigate an important deliverance. We find this in the second part of the sixth seal found in Revelation 7:1-4,which says, “And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”

The awful destruction outlined in Revelation 6 CANNOT be perfected until the righteous are totally and completely saved.

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

The End!!!

CYCLE 3 (received in heaven)

Seven Trumpets (Ch 8:6-10:7)

Previously in Scripture we have learnt that the coming of the Lord is ushered in by the sound of the trumpet. By clear implication, if the last trump relates to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it. Revelation seems to support this weighty inference. Moreover, the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the ONLY set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture.

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second Coming.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

The End!!!

The King James Version interprets the passage correctly:

“chronos ouketi estai”

time - no longer – there shall be

The interpretation of these Greek words in this passage is in clear and absolute agreement with their usage everywhere else in Scripture. Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the second coming.

Anyway, the whole import of the rest of the passage perfectly confirms the all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of god should be finished.”

Revelation 11:15-17 makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.”

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

The End!!!

 

[WPM]

Now your turn. Where is your rapture in the book of Revelation..........Chapter and verse?

CYCLE 4 (received in heaven)

The Church and its onslaught from the devil (Ch 12) including a parallel view of the beast’s (the world anti-Christ system – intra-advent) persecution of the elect (Ch 13) and the simultaneous joy of the redeemed (Ch 14) in heaven (Ch 12-14).

Revelation 14:14-20 says, “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Christ), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; For the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud (Christ) thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”

The End!!!

CYCLE 5 (received in heaven)

Seven Vials (Ch 16)

If our supposition is to fit perfectly, the final vial, in keeping with the final trumpet, must be an unmistakable description of the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and the rapture of the saints. Similarly, it must also be a solemn picture of the outpouring of God’s wrath upon the wicked and the end of the world.

Revelation 16:17-21 declares, “And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, ‘It is done’ (or Gegonen). And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.”

The End!!!

CYCLE 6 (received in heaven)

Babylon (17-19)

Revelation 19:7-10 tells us, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb."

Here is the great meeting in the air when Jesus comes. This is when the Church throughout time meets Christ in the air. This is the same scene portrayed in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.

His “wife” is said to have “made herself ready.”

Ready for what?

Ready, “for the marriage of the Lamb.” Whilst we (the Church) have been betrothed to Christ in salvation, the marriage will not be finally consummated until the Bridegroom comes.

Clearly “the marriage of the Lamb” to “his wife” is referring to the final consummation of the relationship between Christ and His bride – the Church – at the second coming. This woman with her innate purity is such a contrast to the whore in the introductory verses that is judged. The two women couldn’t be more diverse. One is judged the other is blessed. The status of the Lamb’s wife is outlined in the passage and confirms her honoured status; “And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.” The bride is the body of believers down through the years, which have placed their trust and eternity on the blood of Christ, whether in the old or the new economy.

The marriage union is the glorification feat where we are eternally changed in order to enjoy God forever – this is the final act of redemption. This is the marriage of the Lamb. In short, a prepared bride is made ready to unite with a prepared bridegroom. For this climactic event she is arrayed in the righteousness of Christ. This is her worthiness for marriage.

After “the marriage of the Lamb,” which is the glorification of the saints of all time (including the dead in Christ and the live in Christ), the saints return as an army (following Christ) to destroy the wicked. John continues, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword (the Word of God), that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall poimaino (or ‘shepherd’) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS” (Revelation 19:11-16).

Revelation 19:17-21 continues, “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant (or those left behind) were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

The End!!!

Those who hold the Premillennialist position often advance this passage as support for their mistaken view that Christ is coming back to this earth to reign for a thousand years. However, the word poimaino in this reading which is rendered “rule” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of Shepherd and shepherding in Scripture.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with NO ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have attacked His sheep. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

CYCLE 7 (received in heaven)

The figurative binding of Satan from the cross and the victorious reign of the saints in heaven. The ushering in of the New Heaven and the New Earth (Ch 20-22).

Here we have a great spiritual assault upon the Church just prior to the end. In keeping with the rest of Scripture, fire comes down from heaven and devours the wicked.

Revelation 20:11-15 says, “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

CONCLUSION

I don’t believe any open-minded objective Bible student could arrive at any conclusion other than the fact that Revelation is a number of similar parallels taking us up to the Second Advent (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern happens repeatedly through the New Testament. Also, they are clearly intra-advent.

 

[David in NJ]

LOL. You mean you got nothing.

SO WHERE IS YOUR RAPTURE IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION?????????????????????????




Did is say proves? No.

However, is the Church mentioned in Revelation 6-19? No


LOL. Please provide the post where I said the 24 elders are the Church.

The 24 elders with crowns are proof that Jesus has come.

The Church is the kings and priest of Revelation 5



Sorry. The 24 elders are not the Church. They have crowns and are proof that Jesus has come.


Because Word tells us who these saints etc. are.


Try using Word. It clear that those that get victory over the beast are singing the song of Moses...........they are Jews.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.


No need to twist anything. The saints after the pretribulation rapture of the Church are singing the song of Moses. God has His attention to His chosen.


Oh Boy.

Just a diversion because you can't answer your own question.

Where in the book of Revelation is your rapture.........CHAPTER AND VERSE?

However, is the Church mentioned in Revelation 6-19? No

the Church is CLEARLY mentioned by God in Revelation chapter 6

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

 

[WPM]

Here comes the onslaught of question after question. Don't have time to read it now.

Try answering my ONE question, that was YOUR question.

Where is your rapture in the book of Revelation? You have no answer.

Again, no answer to the truth! Typical!