TWO GOSPELS THAT CANNOT BE THE SAME

[Doug]

Doug anyone today can give to the poor, or a charity that helps feed them or take care of them so yes it applies to any of us.

That would be voluntary giving .......Jesus commanded them to sell all and you cant change the meaning to say it applies to you......if you dont sell all you are not following Jesus as you say we must

 

[Doug]

It says starting at Jerusalem, not in Jerusalem only, but repentance was the main message of Jesus and race the main of Paul, you were right, the gospels, not the same. Repentance is what a true follower of Christ has to preach but it is not received well, it is hard to do and because of that, people will shame you and ignore you like they do here sometimes when I preach on this forum.

You have not addressed the command of Jesus to start at Jerusalem.....have you started your preaching in Jerusalem?
If not you are not obeying everything Jesus commands

 

[Doug]

It was given to the disciples to heal the sick it is a gift of the Holy spirit and it is rare today but not unheard of.

So now you are saying some things were given to the disciples and NOT to you........Jesus didnt say that sign was for some but to all those who believe
Thats what I have been saying, not everything was commanded to us

 

[GracePeace]

We discussed this before but once more there is no remnant today,,,,the church of God, the believing remnant, the little flock, the Israel of God was still present when Paul wrote Romans 11:5 and so when he said the present time it meant when he wrote it

Why did Paul teach the remnant of Israel was being preserved by the Gospel of Grace, which you correctly identify Paul as teaching, whereas you claim people don't enter the remnant of Israel through the Gospel of Grace?

 

[Doug]

Why did Paul teach the remnant of Israel was being preserved by the Gospel of Grace, which you correctly identify Paul as teaching, whereas you claim people don't enter the remnant of Israel through the Gospel of Grace?

No idea what you mean ....sorry

 

[GracePeace]

No idea what you mean ....sorry

Convenient.

I detect inconsistency between what I perceive the Bible teaches and what you teach :

You say : "the remnant of Israel Church" is entered by Jews and Gentiles when they hear "Peter's Gospel", which differs from "Paul's Gospel of Grace" whereby people enter "the body of Christ Church".

The Bible says : "God is preserving a remnant of the nation of Israel by the Gospel of Grace", which you identify as the Gospel Paul preaches.

How are these two things compatible?

 

[Doug]

Convenient.

I detect inconsistency between what I perceive the Bible teaches and what you teach :

You say : "the remnant of Israel Church" is entered by Jews and Gentiles when they hear "Peter's Gospel", which differs from "Paul's Gospel of Grace" whereby people enter "the body of Christ Church".

The Bible says : "God is preserving a remnant of the nation of Israel by the Gospel of Grace", which you identify as the Gospel Paul preaches.

How are these two things compatible?

The Bible says : "God is preserving a remnant of the nation of Israel by the Gospel of Grace", which you identify as the Gospel Paul preaches.

What chapter and verse is this?

 

[GracePeace]

The Bible says : "God is preserving a remnant of the nation of Israel by the Gospel of Grace", which you identify as the Gospel Paul preaches.

What chapter and verse is this?

Romans 11:1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. 2Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

[Col 1:23 KJV] 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Paul is saying here that the gospel WAS preached to EVERY creature, so therefore, the gospel WAS preached to the whole world. There was no creature under heaven, which is the world, who did not hear the gospel.

[Mat 24:14 KJV] 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Jesus says that after the gospel was preached in all the world the end would come.

If the gospel WAS preached to the whole world, as Paul said, and the end did NOT come, then it must be a different gospel.

The gospel Jesus preached was the gospel of the kingdom; the prophetic Davidic kingdom in which Christ will reign a thousand years was at hand.

This was not the gospel Paul preached; Paul preached the grace of God.

Generally speaking:

Our Israeli, Hebrew-minded, ancient idioms in language, later expressed through Greek language which was then translated into English, the historic, ancient understanding of that phraseology, has long since been lost where it speaks of "...every creature..." That command was known to be consistent with Christ's command to the disciples alone to go NOT unto the Gentiles nor even to the Samaritans with His Gospel. In other words, it was the responsibility of the twelve to go ONLY to the scattered Jews across every known nation at that time, and the world beyond. That responsibility alone had a reason behind it that is today lost to the minds of all the false teaching pastors and teachers out there.

The evidence for this is demonstrated here:

Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

See that? The believing Jews continued what was commanded of the disciples. Ah, but ignorant rhetoricians today vomit their diatribes of replacement theology, spewing their trash all over those within hearing distance, each victim speckled with the flecks of falsehoods in the hopes that the "little leaven leavens the whole loaf," can, so they hope, add to their numbers an even bigger crowd of people who simply go along with whatever appeals to their sense of pride and emotions.

Moving on, we see this:

Acts 11:20 And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus.

It was the converted Gentiles who preached to other Gentiles, while the Jews stuck only to the Jews for their preaching of Christ Jesus.

Oh well, scripture doesn't matter one tinker's darn to those who love making garbage up that has no roots within the fertile bed of scripture. Systematic Theology is an almost a dead art form for dredging up truth from what ALL scripture says, AND what a small handful of scripture says in its historic, ancient meaning from language, dialect, culture and audience continuities.

Thanks for creating this thread. It's a good topic of study.

BTW

 

[Doug]

Romans 11:1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. 2Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Once again the present time is when Paul wrote this

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

It was the converted Gentiles who preached to other Gentiles, while the Jews stuck only to the Jews for their preaching of Christ Jesus.

Be that as it may, it's all the same Gospel - the Doctrine of Christ as laid out in the New Covenant and all the biblical writes were Jews except for Luke

Paul first mentioned "those circumcised" (Col 4:11) and later referred to Luke (Col 4:14), the implication is drawn that Luke was not of the circumcision and hence was not a Jew.

 

[GracePeace]

Once again the present time is when Paul wrote this

Once again, that is irrelevant : you say the "remnant of Israel Church" is not entered by "Paul's Gospel of Grace" (but "Peter's Gospel"); the context demonstrates this "remnant" included those Jewish believers in his audience (who were to submit to "Paul's Gospel of Grace", his written message), whereas the majority of Israel, at the time, had been "cut off" (demonstrating that the Jewish believers in his reading audience were "the remnant of Israel preserved by God by Grace). That couldn't be the case if we assumed your view.

 

[Doug]

Generally speaking:

Our Israeli, Hebrew-minded, ancient idioms in language, later expressed through Greek language which was then translated into English, the historic, ancient understanding of that phraseology, has long since been lost lost where it speaks of "...every creature..." That command was known to be consistent with Christ's command to the disciples alone to go NOT unto the Gentiles nor even to the Samaritans with His Gospel. In other words, it was the responsibility of the twelve to go ONLY to the scattered Jews across every known nation at that time, and the world beyond. That responsibility alone had a reason behind it that is today lost to the minds of all the false teaching pastors and teachers out there.

The evidence for this is demonstrated here:

Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

See that? The believing Jews continued what was commanded of the disciples. Ah, but ignorant rhetoricians today vomit their diatribes of replacement theology, spewing their trash all over those within hearing distance, each victim speckled with the flecks of falsehoods in the hopes that the "little leaven leavens the whole loaf," can, so they hope, add to their numbers an even bigger crowd of people who simply go along with whatever appeals to their sense of pride and emotions.

Moving on, we see this:

Acts 11:20 And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus.

It was the converted Gentiles who preached to other Gentiles, while the Jews stuck only to the Jews for their preaching of Christ Jesus.

Oh well, scripture doesn't matter one tinker's darn to those who love making garbage up that has no roots within the fertile bed of scripture. Systematic Theology is an almost a dead art form for dredging up truth from what ALL scripture says, AND what a small handful of scripture says in its historic, ancient meaning from language, dialect, culture and audience continuities.

Thanks for creating this thread. It's a good topic of study.

BTW

Well said

 

[Kokyu]

[Col 1:23 KJV] 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Paul is saying here that the gospel WAS preached to EVERY creature, so therefore, the gospel WAS preached to the whole world. There was no creature under heaven, which is the world, who did not hear the gospel.

It should be obvious that the Gospel was not literally preached to the whole world. Paul was speaking hyperbolically, like young Bobby who wants to go to the concert of his favorite musician and says to his parents who are unwilling to fund his trip "But everybody's going to the concert!" Many tens of thousands are, perhaps, going to attend the concert, but not literally everybody, as both Bobby and his parents understand. Literally everybody would encompass several billion people which, for obvious reasons, could not all attend, or even would want to attend, the concert. Bobby is just being hyperbolic in an effort to make his case for why his parents should pay for his ticket to the concert.

So, too, the apostle Paul. His statement that every creature under heaven had been preached to is obviously hyperbolic. Taking Paul literally would necessarily mean that the Gospel was preached, not just to human beings, but to all the birds, mammals, reptiles, aquatic creatures and insects under heaven. They are all "creatures under heaven" also. How was this done, exactly? Who ventured to the bottom of the Mariana Trench to preach the Gospel to the creatures inhabiting it? Who preached the Gospel to the penguins in Antarctica and how? By what means did the wolves in Siberia hear the Gospel? How was the Gospel preached to every spider, fly and flea on the planet? Silly questions, I know, but if one intends to take Paul literally, these are some of the questions that must be answered.

If, though, Paul is speaking hyperbolically, as young Bobby was, then we realize he doesn't mean that literally every creature under heaven had the Gospel preached to them. Instead, Paul meant, as Bobby did, only that a great many people had heard the Gospel preached.

[Mat 24:14 KJV] 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Jesus says that after the gospel was preached in all the world the end would come.

If the gospel WAS preached to the whole world, as Paul said, and the end did NOT come, then it must be a different gospel.

Or Paul was speaking hyperbolically rather than literally, which seems very obviously the case.

The gospel Jesus preached was the gospel of the kingdom; the prophetic Davidic kingdom in which Christ will reign a thousand years was at hand.

This was not the gospel Paul preached; Paul preached the grace of God.

Seriously? Come on, now. This is silly.

 

[GracePeace]

It should be obvious that the Gospel was not literally preached to the whole world. Paul was speaking hyperbolically, like young Bobby who wants to go to the concert of his favorite musician and says to his parents who are unwilling to fund his trip "But everybody's going to the concert!" Many tens of thousands are, perhaps, going to attend the concert, but not literally everybody, as both Bobby and his parents understand. Literally everybody would encompass several billion people which, for obvious reasons, could not all attend, or even would want to attend, the concert. Bobby is just being hyperbolic in an effort to make his case for why his parents should pay for his ticket to the concert.

So, too, the apostle Paul. His statement that every creature under heaven had been preached to is obviously hyperbolic. Taking Paul literally would necessarily mean that the Gospel was preached, not just to human beings, but to all the birds, mammals, reptiles, aquatic creatures and insects under heaven. They are all "creatures under heaven" also. How was this done, exactly? Who ventured to the bottom of the Mariana Trench to preach the Gospel to the creatures inhabiting it? Who preached the Gospel to the penguins in Antarctica and how? By what means did the wolves in Siberia hear the Gospel? How was the Gospel preached to every spider, fly and flea on the planet? Silly questions, I know, but if one intends to take Paul literally, these are some of the questions that must be answered.

If, though, Paul is speaking hyperbolically, as young Bobby was, then we realize he doesn't mean that literally every creature under heaven had the Gospel preached to them. Instead, Paul meant, as Bobby did, only that a great many people had heard the Gospel preached.



Or Paul was speaking hyperbolically rather than literally, which seems very obviously the case.



Seriously? Come on, now. This is silly.

Yep, silliness describes all of it--and it has been demonstrated to him in multiple ways by multiple users, but he's unwilling to "come on now". He will not have it.
Now, after having had his arguments dismantled, there're even "New Member" puppet accounts (eg, BeforeThereWas), created extremely recently, active almost exclusively on Doug's posts, and actually acquainted, and in agreement, with Doug's bizarre and confused and unheard of nonsensical conclusions (how could they agree when no one's even heard of it before?), jumping in to defend Doug--accounts he actually, then, turns around and praises "Well said", and which "like" his self-congratulatory back-patting. It's pathetic. A clown show. He's not a serious guy.

 

[Doug]

It should be obvious that the Gospel was not literally preached to the whole world.

[Mar 16:15 KJV] 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

So Jesus didnt mean the whole world either
So he was telling them to preach to penguins as well

[Rom 3:19 KJV] 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

So some arent guilty

I know what you are saying but look at these verses.................[Col 1:5-6 KJV] 5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth:

These verses are the same as Colossians 1:23 in saying the gospel went to all the world

Now look at Matthew again........[Mat 24:14 KJV] 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

This gospel went to all the world

So, say "all the world" in all these verses is hyperbole....the gospel isnt hyperbole......so it doesnt change the fact that the gospel in all these verses is preached in all the world whether hyperbole or not

 

[RenewedStrength316]

[Col 1:23 KJV] 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Paul is saying here that the gospel WAS preached to EVERY creature, so therefore, the gospel WAS preached to the whole world. There was no creature under heaven, which is the world, who did not hear the gospel.

[Mat 24:14 KJV] 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Jesus says that after the gospel was preached in all the world the end would come.

If the gospel WAS preached to the whole world, as Paul said, and the end did NOT come, then it must be a different gospel.

The gospel Jesus preached was the gospel of the kingdom; the prophetic Davidic kingdom in which Christ will reign a thousand years was at hand.

This was not the gospel Paul preached; Paul preached the grace of God.

Doug, your argument is built on sand—quick to crumble under the weight of Scripture rightly divided, not dispensationally disfigured. Let’s expose this:


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CLAIM: If Paul said the gospel was preached to every creature, but Jesus said the end would come after the gospel is preached to all the world, then they must be different gospels.

ANSWER: False. The timeline is misunderstood, and the texts aren’t contradictions—they’re compliments in fulfillment.


---

1. Colossians 1:23

> “The gospel… which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven…”



This is Paul using hyperbolic, mission-complete language, just as Jesus does in Mark 16:15:

> “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”



Paul is not claiming that every literal person in the entire world has heard—he’s affirming that the Gentile mission has exploded beyond Jewish borders. That gospel has gone global—and it’s the same gospel Christ commanded to be preached in Matthew 28:19–20.


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2. Matthew 24:14 – “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached…”

Yes, Jesus said that the gospel of the kingdom must be preached before the end comes.

But here’s your mistake, Doug:

You’re treating “gospel of the kingdom” and “gospel of grace” as if they’re two separate gospels, when in fact they are two sides of the same gospel coin.

> The gospel of the kingdom is the good news of the King and His reign—which starts in hearts now (Luke 17:21) and will culminate in His return.

The gospel of grace is how we enter that kingdom—through the blood, not by birthright.




Paul didn’t change the gospel. He revealed its mystery—that Gentiles also inherit the kingdom through faith in the risen Christ:

> “That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel.” — Ephesians 3:6




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3. Paul Preached the Kingdom

Paul never abandoned the kingdom message. He clarified its access—not its essence.

> “And now, behold, I know that ye all… among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.” — Acts 20:25



> “[Paul] expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets…” — Acts 28:23



> “Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ…” — Acts 28:31



So if you’re saying “gospel of the kingdom” is a different gospel, then Paul was preaching it until his final breath.


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4. Two Gospels = Double Curse

> “If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” — Galatians 1:9



You want to split Jesus’ gospel and Paul’s gospel into two separate saving messages? That’s exactly what Paul condemned.

Not only would Peter, James, John, and Paul be accursed by your logic—they would be damned men preaching damned gospels.


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FINAL STRIKE:

Doug, you’ve built a system that pits Christ against Himself.

You’ve made Jesus’ words expire at the cross, and Paul into some heaven-sent replacement prophet preaching a second gospel.

But Jesus didn’t hand off the baton—He is the gospel:

> “Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.” — 1 Corinthians 15:3
“To Him give all the prophets witness…” — Acts 10:43



One message. One name. One cross.

You can fight the clear Word of God, or you can bow before the King of both grace and kingdom—who died once for all, Jew and Gentile alike.

> “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men…” — Titus 2:11
“…and the government shall be upon His shoulder… of His kingdom there shall be no end.” — Isaiah 9:6–7

 

[BeforeThereWas]

It's a very simple thing to read Acts 2 where Peter stated that the Jews must be water baptized unto the remission of their sins for salvation, and then compare that to 1 Cor. 15 where Paul's gospel said nothing about the requirement for water baptism to the Gentiles for remission of sins for salvation, but only faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus. Peter only mentioned the killing of our Messiah as the means to pricking their hearts with guilt. The glaring differences are there, although many choose to ignore them.

Everyone here is dispensational. The proof is in the fact that nobody here runs out and offers up animal sacrifices for their sins, nor do they stone their rebellious children...

BTW

 

[Doug]

This is Paul using hyperbolic, mission-complete language, just as Jesus does in Mark 16:15:

> “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”



Paul is not claiming that every literal person in the entire world has heard—he’s affirming that the Gentile mission has exploded beyond Jewish borders. That gospel has gone global—and it’s the same gospel Christ commanded to be preached in Matthew 28:19–20.

[Col 1:5-6 KJV] 5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth:

[Mat 24:14 KJV] 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Both Paul here and Jesus refer to their gospels preached in "all the world"...............whether hyperbole or not these verses still say "all the world" and the end of the world has not come

 

[Doug]

> The gospel of the kingdom is the good news of the King and His reign—which starts in hearts now (Luke 17:21) and will culminate in His return.

The gospel of the kingdom was the prophetic earthly kingdom and to say it begins in the heart is not stated stated clearly in Luke 17:21....it could be he meant he was in their midst.............in Luke 17:24 he does tell them they will see him
It is a different gospel