Is it possible to lose salvation?

[ProDeo]

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The gift of God's salvation is obtained:

- By grace.
- Through faith.
- Not of works.

Why did Paul write not of works, lest anyone should boast ?

Because in that time many considered themselves under the Mosaic Law, that you could earn your salvation by works. And Paul said no, it's only by God's Grace, only because of Jesus, no more boasting. See that?

- By grace.
- Through faith.
- Repentance.

We are saved, we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide us through all the temptations of our sinful flesh. Everything after that is conditional. Do we stumble, there is forgiveness, always, as long as we abide in Christ and overcome. However if we decide to live by the flesh we lose our salvation -- Romans 8:1-11

Galatians 5:4
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Funny that you posted this verse in defense of OSAS, it's an example OSAS is wrong, the Galatians started from Grace and then fell from Grace, Paul calling for repentance.

Allow me to put you on a test -

Jesus Foretells His Death [ESV header]
Luke 9:21 And he strictly charged and commanded them to tell this to no one,
Luke 9:22 saying, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.”

Take Up Your Cross and Follow Jesus [ESV header]
Luke 9:23 And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
Luke 9:24 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it.

Matt 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

What do you think what Jesus meant when He said taking up our cross ?

Maybe you should read about the persecuted Church - World Watch List 2025

These people know what it means, when push comes to shove you must be willing to give your life for Jesus.

Are you ready?

Peter was ready, we know how that ended, he learned a valuable and painful lesson.

Have you already learned Peter's lesson?

Or still overestimating yourself?

 

[Kokyu]

Why did Paul write not of works, lest anyone should boast ?

Because in that time many considered themselves under the Mosaic Law, that you could earn your salvation by works. And Paul said no, it's only by God's Grace, only because of Jesus, no more boasting. See that?

- By grace.
- Through faith.
- Repentance.

We are saved, we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide us through all the temptations of our sinful flesh. Everything after that is conditional. Do we stumble, there is forgiveness, always, as long as we abide in Christ and overcome. However if we decide to live by the flesh we lose our salvation -- Romans 8:1-11

"Because in that time many considered themselves under the Mosaic Law..." This is not stated in the text of Ephesians 2, nor is it implied. In fact, in the first and second chapter of Paul's letter to the Ephesian believers, there isn't a single mention of the law of Moses. But Paul does, in chapter 2, indicate to whom he is directing his words:

Ephesians 2:11-13
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

It is evident in what Paul wrote here that those in view in chapter 2 are not Jews wanting to keep the Mosaic Law but Gentiles, those of the uncircumcision, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel. So, then, what does Paul mean by "good works"? Since his words aren't directed at Jews but at Gentiles, he would not have been referring to the Mosaic Law about which Gentiles would have been quite unconcerned. No, instead, Paul was speaking generically of good deeds done to garner acceptance with God. Such deeds he completely excludes as a means of one's salvation so that "no one may boast" in their having earned, or deserved, God's free gift of salvation in and through Jesus Christ.

"We are saved, we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide us through all the temptations of our sinful flesh."

Yes, we are saved when we receive the Holy Spirit, who makes of us his "temple," bought with the precious blood of Christ (1 Co. 6:19-20). His life and work in us transforms us, making us into "living letters of Christ (2 Co. 3:3).

"However if we decide to live by the flesh we lose our salvation -- Romans 8:1-11"

Nowhere in all of Romans 8 does Paul ever write anything like what you have written here. In the early portion of the chapter, Paul describes two kinds of people: The fleshly-minded person and the Spirit-minded person. Not once in the first 16 verses of the chapter does Paul ever even imply that a saved, Spirit-minded person could become a lost, carnal person.

Funny that you posted this verse in defense of OSAS, it's an example OSAS is wrong, the Galatians started from Grace and then fell from Grace, Paul calling for repentance.

I'm afraid this just demonstrates how unfamiliar you are with Paul's epistle to the believers in the province of Galatia. "Fall from grace" does not mean "lose salvation." This is an interpretation of the phrase that you're imposing on it, not drawing out of it. In context, "fall from grace" refers to the Galatian believers trying to achieve God's acceptance by way of law-keeping. They began with God by the cleansing, spiritually-regenerating work of the Holy Spirit (Tit. 3:50), not by fleshly law-keeping into which Judaizers had been urging them to move (Ga. 3:3). All throughout the letter to the Galatian believers, Paul contrasts law-keeping with grace, making it as clear as he could that acceptance with God was by grace, through faith, entirely apart from good works. See: Galatians 1:6-7; 2:4-5, 11-17; 3-6.

Galatians 5:1-6
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

What is the liberty of which Paul wrote here? Liberty from the burden and death of law-keeping. Against this "yoke of bondage" Paul urges his readers to "stand fast," refusing the urgings of the Judaizers among them.

2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

Here is what Paul meant by "fall from grace": Christ will profit nothing." Not, "Christ will reject you." Not, "Christ is lost to you." Not, "Christ will no longer save you." What does it mean that "Christ will profit you nothing"? Well, if I own a lawnmower but resort to trimming my lawn with a pair of eye-brow tweezers, my lawnmower ceases to be of profit, or benefit, to me. Does my using tweezers mean I no longer possess my lawnmower? No, of course not. In the same way, if I try to live the Christian life using the "tweezers" of law-keeping, I don't cease to possess the "lawnmower" of saving grace in Christ Jesus. I simply take up the impossible (and ridiculous) task of making myself acceptable to God by "tweezing" the "grass" of my life with law-keeping. This is a ridiculous thing to do precisely because I posses the "lawnmower" of life in Christ Jesus but refuse to benefit from its power to "cut the grass" of my life.

3 And I testify again to every. man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

Here, Paul explains why law-keeping is a stupid thing to try to do to gain acceptance with God. One must keep the whole law perfectly, all the time, which cannot be done - as the record of the OT makes amply clear.

4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Estrangement is not the same as divorcement, or the utter dissolution of a relationship. See Luke 15:11-32. In context, Paul means that the ones who has "fallen from grace" cease to benefit from the grace of Christ in their life as God's child. They possess Christ (and are possessed by him) but this fact doesn't profit them spiritually because they've taken up the "tweezers" of law-keeping.

5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

On what basis does Paul say the Christian "eagerly waits for the hope of righteousness by faith"? On the basis of obedience to God? On the basis of law-keeping? No. He wrote that it was "through the Spirit" that they could eagerly anticipate "the hope of righteousness by faith." Without the regenerating, transforming life and work of the Holy Spirit, righteousness by faith would be a hopeless thing. See: Jn. 14:26; 16:8, 13; Ro. 8:9-16; 1 Co. 2:10-16; 2 Co. 3;18; Eph. 3:16; 6:10; Phil. 2:13; 4:13; Ga. 5:16, 25, etc. The only righteousness that God will accept is that which arises from His own Spirit within the believer. All else is fleshly law-keeping which God rejects.

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

And both this faith and love must be of God, of the Holy Spirit, more precisely, which He gives to His children.

Romans 5:5
5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Romans 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Our salvation is entirely of God and what follows beyond the point of conversion is also entirely of Him. We are merely the joyful recipients of His life and work in us, vessels of grace - if we don't migrate into fleshly attempts to earn God's gift of acceptance of us.

Galatians 3:3
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

 

[Kokyu]

Take Up Your Cross and Follow Jesus [ESV header]
Luke 9:23 And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
Luke 9:24 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it.

Matt 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

What do you think what Jesus meant when He said taking up our cross ?

??? He tells us what he meant. Just read verse 24. Or, read Matthew 16:23-24. The "cross" we take up is the crucified life of self-denial. See Galatians 2:20; 5:24; 6:14; Romans. 6:1-11; Colossians 2:10-13, etc.

These people know what it means, when push comes to shove you must be willing to give your life for Jesus.

Are you ready?

I give up my life every day, living by faith in my crucifixion with Christ, denying myself in order that his life, the life and fruit of the Holy Spirit, might manifest in, and through, me. How about you? I can tell you this: If you aren't living in this way before the choice to literally die for Christ confronts you, you will not choose him.

Have you already learned Peter's lesson?

Or still overestimating yourself?

Have you? Are you?

 

[ProDeo]

??? He tells us what he meant. Just read verse 24. Or, read Matthew 16:23-24. The "cross" we take up is the crucified life of self-denial. See Galatians 2:20; 5:24; 6:14; Romans. 6:1-11; Colossians 2:10-13, etc.

Wrong, when Jesus said take up your cross and follow Me is willing (like Jesus) to die for Him, just like He died for us. Jesus even added, else you are not worthy -- Matt 10:38

Taken from gotquestions -

When a person carried a cross in Jesus’ day, no one thought of it as a persistent annoyance or symbolic burden. To a person in the first century, the cross meant one thing and one thing only: death by crucifixion. To carry a cross was to face the most painful and humiliating means of death human beings could develop.

Two thousand years later, Christians view the cross as a cherished symbol of atonement, forgiveness, grace, and love. But in Jesus’ day the cross represented a torturous death. The Romans forced convicted criminals to carry their own crosses to the place of crucifixion (see John 19:17). Bearing a cross meant one was about to die, and that one would face ridicule and disgrace along the way.

Therefore, Jesus’ command to “take up your cross and follow Me” is a call to self-abasement and self-sacrifice. One must be willing to die in order to follow Jesus. Dying to self is an absolute surrender to God.

---


Now we are both lucky to live in a country where there is freedom of religion so it's unlikely (but not impossible, note the beheadings of ISIS) we are obliged to bring the ultimate sacrifice. And it's still happening today, read the Open Doors link I gave you, Christians who bring the ultimate sacrifice and not denying Christ.

Matt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Matt 10:24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master.

I give up my life every day, living by faith in my crucifixion with Christ, denying myself in order that his life, the life and fruit of the Holy Spirit, might manifest in, and through, me. How about you? I can tell you this: If you aren't living in this way before the choice to literally die for Christ confronts you, you will not choose him.

Amen.

Have you? Are you?

Yes I did, I am deeply impressed with Peter 3 times denial of Jesus because he feared his life was in danger. The same Peter the one who said He would die for Jesus and 2-3 hours later denied Jesus 3 times. Did Peter know himself well enough? Not so much and that's why he failed. Survival is deeply rooted in our genes. But Peter learned, I learned from him.

There is more to the story, something Jesus said before Peter boasted.

Luke 22:31 “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat,
Luke 22:32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”
Luk 22:33 Peter said to him, “Lord, I am ready to go with you both to prison and to death.”
Luk 22:34 Jesus said, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster will not crow this day, until you deny three times that you know me.”

Not sure how much space the devil got from Jesus to hunt Peter, the lesson for me was to ask Jesus to pray for me too and keep me from falling. I don't trust my survival genes.

 

[Taken]

Is it possible to lose salvation?

YES… by, through, of refusal to reach out and TAKING,, the Gift Offering.

Obvious, if an individual DOES NOT “TAKE” a Gift, the individual DOES NOT;
Have / Possess the Offered Gift.

Banks, Lotteries, Gambling, Stores, etc. OFFER loans, chances, Merchandise, Freebies…
(“with conditions”…”specific rules”…”specific Time-lines”… to participate, be included, collect, possess the Offering.)

Nothing new…
Gods “Gift Offering of Salvation”…
As well, Has, specific Conditions, Rules, Time-Lines…
To participate, be included, collect, possess the Offered Gift.)

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[GodsGrace]

And this is thru the power of the Holy Spirit!
(they'll claim we're doing this in our own strength and ability apart from the Lord)

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Of course.
Everything we do is by the power of the Holy Spirit.

But, according to some,,,we're either doing EVERYTHING by ourselves, through our own strength
or
We're doing everything through God as if He forces us.

Which is a really dangerous position to take because if it's GOD that MAKES US do everything,,,
then when we sin it become HIS fault !

(sounds like Calvinism, doesn't it?

We still retain our free will after salvation.

But thank God that Jesus said He had to go away so the comforter and paraclete could come to us!

 

[GodsGrace]

In your wording? You'll have to go with what God said. Believe it.

marks...
YOU said that the bible states that we are permanent children of God.
So it's up to YOU to provide the scripture that states this.

You won't be able to because Jesus Himself stated that we can become lost.
Luke 15:24
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.

Jesus taught that the Prodial §Son has come to life AGAIN....
This means that the PS was
saved
lost
saved again

If you go to the store AGAIN...it means you had already been there BEFORE.....
We really should learn what Jesus stated.
He taught in a simple manner and stated His teachings very clearly.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Shall appear, or maybe/might appear? Shall appear.

Sure. Shall appear
IF you remain in Christ...
IF you do NOT remain in Christ you will not be appearing with Him.

We will appear with Him IF:
1. We set our affections on things above. Verse 2.
2. We do not give importance to things on earth. Verse 2.
3. We are to be dead to ourselves. Verse 3
4. Our life is to be hid with Christ in God. Verse 3

All of the above require OBEDIENCE to God.
Of course if we obey God we will appear with Christ in glory.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

We know. We know what? We will be like Him.

Agreed.
IF we are LIKE HIM.

See verse 3.
Every man that has this hope IN HIM....
IF we abide IN CHRIST we will have this hope....

IF we purify ourselves.

I believe I've said this before.
We are to PURIFY OURSELVES.

We are to keep the gift that was given to us by obeying God and remaining IN CHRIST.

Jesus said that IF we do not abide in Him we will not be able to do anything and will be like the branches that are taken away and dried up and burned.
John 15:5-6
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing *.
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Agreed again.
Paul says there's more to life FOR US.
FOR US.
For those who believe....
BELIEVE is always in the present tense.
We must be believing at the time of our death.
We must endure till the end.

Matthew 24:44
44 "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

Matthew 24:13
13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.


Why do you suppose Jesus teaches to BE READY IF we're saved already now and forever?
IF salvation were a one time event,,,,Jesus would not have stated this...
there would have been no reason to.

Matthew 25:1
1 "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.


Let's teach that it's a good idea not to run out of oil....just as Jesus taught.

Each of these passages show that those who are reborn, who are citizens of heaven now, will remain so. John even clarifies that this very knowledge is what causes us to purify ourselves.

No. marks. None of the verses you posted prove a person is saved forever.
They just show that a person is saved at this moment.
Perhaps you could zoom in on where you believe it states forever.....

Jesus said that those who do the Father's will are saved.
Jesus said that branches that do not bear fruit will be taken away, cut off, severed.
Both Jesus and Paul stated that we will be judged BY OUR WORKS/good deeds.

Sanctification is on-going and must be on-going at the time of our death.
Or we will be lost.

Isn't that your objection? That OSAS leads to liscentiousness? The truth is opposite that.

Much love!

OSAS teaches that once a person has been saved, it is impossible for them to lose their salvation.
Please find out exactly what OSAS means.
Yes. I believe this is a very dangerous teaching and is not what Jesus or any of the writers, taught.

 

[GodsGrace]

Even when it's right in front of you!

Everyone who has this hope . . .

Much love!

No marks.
If we need to PURIFY OURSELVES...

It means that WE are to make OURSELVES pure and holy.
God is NOT forcing this upon us.

And
It means this is NECESSARY for salvation.

1 John 3:3
3And everyone who thus hopes in Him purifies himself as He is pure.

1 Peter 1:22
22Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart,

Matthew 5:8
8“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

1 Peter 1:13
13Therefore, preparing your minds for action, and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is quite beside my point in offering the verse, which was to demonstrate that the Bible does give "shoulds" to the Christian, which you said that it didn't. In the case of Romans 7:4, the "should" is concerning "bearing fruit to God." As Paul wrote, the Christian should do so.

Where does Romans 7:4 use the word SHOULD??

Romans 7.4 NASB
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

CBE
4 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, you also died with respect to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you could be united with someone else. You are united with the one who was raised from the dead so that we can bear fruit for God.

Perhaps there's a version that uses the word should???
I doubt it.


Also, I remind you that I've stated that when God gives a command, or someone is teaching from God's word...
God's commands are never SHOULD.....God gives commands, NOT SHOULD'S.

I have no idea why you hold to the thinking that you do in the above quotation. Yes, God's Moral Law is in effect for all, Christian and non-Christian. We all ought to obey it; we should obey it. But Christians don't obey God's Moral Law, as the NT recounts many times. About this sort of Christian, about the Christian who has not obeyed God, it is correct to say that they should have obeyed God. And one ought to say this because God has given the command that they disobeyed. This is not at all a controversial or complex thing to grasp...

It may not be difficult to grasp for YOU...
but YOU have stated that salvation cannot be forfeited....
and I read in the NT that those that DO NOT obey God WILL forfeit their salvation.

Jesus taught that those that do not do the will of the Father will not see heaven.

Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

So it sounds like Christians that do NOT obey the Moral Law will not be seeing heaven.

Matthew 7:19
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.


Every tree that does not bear fruit WILL BE CUT DOWN.
Jesus here is referring to believers.

When I say that the Christian has a choice about whether or not to obey God, I am not saying that God's Moral Laws are mere suggestions that a Christian can take or leave, as they like. Obviously. I mean only that Christians have free agency that they exercise in every moral or spiritual choice that they face.

In any case, it is doubly peculiar to read your "We do NOT have a choice" statement and then two lines down, read "When we don't, it's a sin, we ask forgiveness, and carry on." Your later statement indicates that a Christian may chose to disobey God and sin in direct contradiction of your earlier statement that they have no choice but to obey God. Well, which is it? If Christians have no choice about obeying God, then they cannot choose to disobey Him which you say that they can do.

OK
I think I see what you mean.
We have a choice to obey or not to obey.....
Agreed, in the sense that you mean it.

But if we continue to disobey, we will become lost again.
I think that this is our main discussion here.

Nowhere in anything that I've written in this thread do I ever indicate "should obey God" means "sin willfully and not worry too much" about it. This seems to me a good example of how, in this thread, you have tacked things onto what you read, adding to, and "spinning" what you've read to suit your view. In any case, I have, in this thread, repeatedly written that God does not force or compel His children to obey. Why only now are you tentatively acknowledging this? Shall I go through my past posts to you in this thread and quote the times I've said this very thing to you?

God does not FORCE us to obey.
But you state that we cannot forfeit our salvation by disobedience and I'm stating that we can.

And I don't twist anything.
I post scripture, plain and simple.

I doubt you could show me one verse that I twisted.
No need to twist anything.

The NT WARNS against falling away from our faith, it warns about apostacy.
It warns about disobedience.

As far as my "wording" goes, nothing I've written is out of keeping with Christ's teachings. The only problem you seem to actually have with my posts is the blinding effect of your doctrinal bias and a practice of assuming and/or imagining what other posters you disagree with mean by what they've written.

No sir.
YOU have stated that salvation cannot be lost.
I've been stating that it can and giving scripture to support my statements.

What I post is what Jesus taught, and Paul and James, etc.
No doctrinal bias here.

Loss of salvation was taught from the beginning of the church.
If you study some church history....you would know this.
Happy to post some history if you care to read it...
but most prefer to remain unknowledgable of church history and state that those the
Apostles taught were not inspired.

I suppose that that began to teach OSAS in the 18 century were inspired?

And I hope you understand that this teaching comes from the Preservation of the Saints,,,
the P in the Calvinist acronym of TULIP.

This idea did NOT exist before then.

 

[GodsGrace]

You're entitled to your opinion. I think I "formulated" things perfectly well.




Because the passage I quoted served to ground my point as it was. Why else?



Is there some particular point you wanted to make by posting this section of Titus 3?



The "right obliged order"? According to who? I obtain my "obliged order" from God's word, not from you.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The gift of God's salvation is obtained:

- By grace.
- Through faith.
- Not of works.


Titus 3:5-7
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 3:23-26
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Galatians 5:4
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Romans 5:1-2
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

And so on. See? We can all quote Scripture.

I would agree that repentance (i.e. changing one's mind) about the Gospel is obviously necessary to trusting in Christ as Saviour and Lord. But this change of mind merely puts a person in place to be saved by the Savior. This is true also of faith which just positions a person to be saved but has no salvific power itself. It is the Object of our faith that saves us not our faith, itself.

It is not true, though, that a person's obedience to God saves them. I've already explained why exhaustively in this thread already, so I'm not going to do so again here.



I'm afraid you have a lot of growth spiritually yet to make if this is what you really think. You can't please God. In-and-of yourself you are utterly without capacity to do so.

Apart from God, you are "dead in trespasses and sins" and bound under the power of the World, the Flesh and the devil (Eph. 2:1-3).
Apart from Christ, you can do NOTHING (Jn. 15:4-5).
Apart from the Holy Spirit, you are "without strength" (Ro. 5:5), carnally-minded and totally unable to please God (Ro. 8:5-8).

The only thing within you with the power to make you pleasing to God is the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit. If he does not act to change you, bearing his fruit in your life (Ga. 5:22-23; Phil. 2:13; 2 Co. 3:18), you will never please God because it is only righteousness flowing from the life and work of His own Spirit that pleases Him. All else, all our human striving to please God, is futile and deeply displeasing to Him.

Galatians 3:1-3
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Think carefully about what Paul wrote here.

Been gone a few days...
Don't know if @ProDeo has responded to the above....
BUT
Could you please explain the difference between WORKS OF THE LAW
and
GOOD WORKS.

It seems to me that you bunch the two together and they are TOTALLY different.

The Works of the Law have been abolished for 2000 years.
Good works will NEVER be abolished because Jesus and all of the NT writers taught that we must do good works.

 

[GodsGrace]

Truth.

Those in Christ do not wilfully disobey God's leading us on the righteous path.

I have learned the ideology that insists eternal security in Christ allows us to sin at will is not a teaching sustained by God's message.

Of course it's not a teaching sustained by Christ!!

Do you understand what OSAS teaches?

We cannot make up our own definitions of words.

OSAS supporters will plainly state that a person can sin, even blaspheme God, and still be saved.

Perhaps if you accepted this definition of OSAS you might want to change your mind and begin to believe in
Eternal Security instead.

 

[GodsGrace]

True.
God tells us,those who make a habit of sinning do not know him.

Which is to say, those who think they are Christian while living a corrupt life are very misguided.

Think of all those public figures surrounded by scandal. They're wearing a cross pendent while a drug abuser,a sex trafficker, and so forth.

Wouldn't you say that your above post proves my point?!

Some live a life of sin and believe they're Christian.

Don't you believe it's a good idea to state, without hesitation, that this is not true?

This is due to the belief of OSAS.
Please learn what it means before you speak for it.

I believe that you and @marks are believers of eternal security.
Please learn the differnece.

 

[Behold]

Reader,

The issue with the idea that Salvation can be lost, is that this concept does not come from the bible....it comes from the mind of a person, who simply does not understand Salvation.

Once we understand that JESUS is Salvation.............and not us trying to be good enough, to keep it.........then we have understood, the very first and most basic principle of "Faith"..
Its a true tragedy that most Christians, will never understand that Salvation is not based on our behavior.....its only based on what Christ has accomplised by His Sacrifice.

A.) God only accepts what Christ has accomplished to save you, and to keep you saved.

Welsome to : Salvation..

Its a Gift.

= Jesus is Salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think what causes confusion for some who read the Bible,if they do so rather than merely reading snippets at on-line sites, is in considering obedience as what makes salvation conditional.

Pandaflower....
What should we do....
quote the entire NT every time we wish to make a point?

This is the Theology Forum.
I was trained to give biblical support for what I state.

I do this.

This is not posting "snippets".
This is posting verses that support the position that Jesus and Paul had....
the forfeiture of salvation through disobedience to God.

And therefore disobedience leads to loss of salvation and damnation,again.

Rather than fix on the word,obedience, I find it helps to consider the words that are synonymous. Because they are more accommodating to peace of mind in God's eternal security.

I also don't think it nourishes our hearts as the church,all who are one in Christ,to imply or state outright any one of us is not truly saved because our posted understanding of God's message does not complete with those who criticize it.

No one who is IN CHRIST is lost.
Those who disobey God,
are NOT IN CHRIST.

Someone has to state this.

We are 100% eternally secure in Christ.

If we are not so,and we believe we can lose what God appointed should we stray or take a misstep, then we are committing what apostle Paul observed.

Paraphrasing his epistle here.
Thinking we have to crucify Christ all over again so to let that repeated sacrifice save us again should we return to faith. And because we first think losing faith,a misstep of any kind,revokes God's grace filled free gift.

Understanding we are eternally secure in Jesus,because the father gave us this precious understanding and rebirth,isn't a false teaching. It is the good news Jesus delivered. And then died so to pay our sin price so that we would never be condemned by our natural born corrupt fallen nature.

We have a new nature as ones redeemed from sin and reborn in the image and likeness of holy Christ.

I feel the undertaking of tying to argue us out of that eternal fixed truth is a waste of precious life's time.

 

[GodsGrace]

Reader,

The issue with the idea that Salvation can be lost, is that this concept does not come from the bible....it comes from the mind of a person, who simply does not understand Salvation.

Once we understand that JESUS is Salvation.............and not us trying to be good enough, to keep it.........then we have understood, the very first and most basic principle of "Faith"..
Its a true tragedy that most Christians, will never understand that Salvation is not based on our behavior.....its only based on what Christ has accomplised by His Sacrifice.

A.) God only accepts what Christ has accomplished to save you, and to keep you saved.

Welsome to : Salvation..

Its a Gift.

= Jesus is Salvation.

You're going to have to post some verses that state that salvation cannot be lost through disobedience or through the falling away from faith.

Paul said that some will FALL AWAY from the faith.

If we fall away from the faith...
do we still have the faith?

If we do not have faith...
are we still saved?

Or do you believe that we lose our free will after salvation and we cannot leave God if we so desire?

Paul said we could deny God, he said we must endure:

2 Timothy 2:11-13
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot * deny Himself.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

But, according to some,,,we're either doing EVERYTHING by ourselves, through our own strength
or
We're doing everything through God as if He forces us.

1 Corinthians 3:9-13
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

But thank God that Jesus said He had to go away so the comforter and paraclete could come to us!

And only led by the Holy Spirit are the sons of God.

 

[Kokyu]

Wrong, when Jesus said take up your cross and follow Me is willing (like Jesus) to die for Him, just like He died for us. Jesus even added, else you are not worthy -- Matt 10:38

Taken from gotquestions -

When a person carried a cross in Jesus’ day, no one thought of it as a persistent annoyance or symbolic burden. To a person in the first century, the cross meant one thing and one thing only: death by crucifixion. To carry a cross was to face the most painful and humiliating means of death human beings could develop.

Two thousand years later, Christians view the cross as a cherished symbol of atonement, forgiveness, grace, and love. But in Jesus’ day the cross represented a torturous death. The Romans forced convicted criminals to carry their own crosses to the place of crucifixion (see John 19:17). Bearing a cross meant one was about to die, and that one would face ridicule and disgrace along the way.

Therefore, Jesus’ command to “take up your cross and follow Me” is a call to self-abasement and self-sacrifice. One must be willing to die in order to follow Jesus. Dying to self is an absolute surrender to God.

??? I'm not particularly interested in what gotquestions has to say. Why should I be? I can read God's word directly and understand its meaning for myself perfectly well. I have Bible lexicons, Greek-to-English interlinear New Testaments, Bible concordances, and trusted commentaries, I have a good basic understanding of good reasoning, logic and argument, too, and have listened to at least ten thousand instances of instruction on the Christian faith through devotionals, Bible studies, lectures and sermons. And so, I don't have to resort to a website for my views on God's word.

In any event, the conclusion of the quotation you've taken from gotquestions is actually essentially what I wote (though, in my case, I offered a lot of supporting Scripture):

gotquestions: "Therefore, Jesus’ command to “take up your cross and follow Me” is a call to self-abasement and self-sacrifice. One must be willing to die in order to follow Jesus. Dying to self is an absolute surrender to God."

Me: "The "cross" we take up is the crucified life of self-denial. See Galatians 2:20; 5:24; 6:14; Romans. 6:1-11; Colossians 2:10-13, etc."

What is it to "die to Self"? Do you know? The verses I cited explain. Are you familiar with them? Can there be "absolute surrender" to God without "dying to oneself," without living the crucified life of self-denial? No.

I might point out, also, that no one knows what "absolute surrender" to God actually is. At best, we can surrender to God to the extent He reveals to us we ought to be surrendered, but that extent of surrender is always enlarging and deepening as we walk with God and He exposes to us the more subtle, more obscured, regions of our life that have not been surrendered to Him.

Sometimes, we think that "absolute surrender" to God is martyrdom, that the self-denial of "taking up one's cross" is given its highest expression in being marytred. But Paul wrote that it was possible to "give one's body to be burned" without a love for God (and others - 1 Co. 13:3). Doing so would be an act of disobedience since it disobeys the First and Great Commandment upon which all our obedience to God rests (Matt. 22:36-38). And so, Paul wrote that such extremity of self-denial may, in fact, "profit nothing" spiritually (1 Co. 13:3).

"I die daily," the apostle Paul wrote in description of what it was to live the crucified life of self-denial (1 Co. 15:31; Ga. 2:20). Martyrdom is not primarily what it is to "take up one's cross and follow Christ," to live the crucified life that Paul so often described and commanded of fellow believers (Ga. 2:20; 5:24; 6:19; Ro. 6; 8:13; Col. 2:11-14; 3:1-5). No, I "take up my cross" everyday when I sacrifice what I want for the sake of those around me, and for the sake of walking in holy fellowship with God.

Not sure how much space the devil got from Jesus to hunt Peter, the lesson for me was to ask Jesus to pray for me too and keep me from falling. I don't trust my survival genes.

Amen. Understanding his own profound weakness, Paul "had no confidence in the flesh" (Phil. 3:3), depending instead upon the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit to "put to death" the "deeds of the body" (Ro. 8:13; Phil. 2:13; Ga. 5:16).

 

[Kokyu]

Where does Romans 7:4 use the word SHOULD??

Romans 7.4 NASB
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

CBE
4 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, you also died with respect to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you could be united with someone else. You are united with the one who was raised from the dead so that we can bear fruit for God.

Perhaps there's a version that uses the word should???
I doubt it.

Romans 7:4 (BRG)
7 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Romans 7:4 (KJV)
7 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Romans 7:4 (NKJV)
7 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

Romans 7:4 (RGV)
7 So you, my brothers, are also dead to the Law, by the body of Christ; so that you should belong to Another (that is, to Him Who was raised up from the dead) so that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

It may not be difficult to grasp for YOU...
but YOU have stated that salvation cannot be forfeited....
and I read in the NT that those that DO NOT obey God WILL forfeit their salvation.

Jesus taught that those that do not do the will of the Father will not see heaven.

Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

So it sounds like Christians that do NOT obey the Moral Law will not be seeing heaven.

Matthew 7:19
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.


Every tree that does not bear fruit WILL BE CUT DOWN.
Jesus here is referring to believers.

The word of God is very plain that our salvation rests in the Savior, not ourselves. How this confuses or obscures the fact that the sinning believer should not sin, I don't know.

When Christ said what he did in the two passages from his Sermon on the Mount that you cited, had he yet died "once for all," as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" atoning for the sin of his Jewish audience? No. And so, in all of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said not one word about justificaton, sanctification and redemption through himself (1 Co. 1:30), not one word about the indwelling, spiritually-regenerating Holy Spirit without whom no one can be saved (Ro. 8:9; Tit. 3:5; 1 Jn. 4:13), not one word about the reconciliation to God and adoption of those who trust in him as Savior and Lord (2 Co. 5:18-21; Ro. 5:6-10; 8:13-16). Instead, Jesus spoke to his Jewish audience from an Old Covenant context, explaining to them that the standard for acceptance with God was entirely out of their reach.

Matthew 5:48
48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

As Christ's Jewish listeners knew very well, the Jewish nation had not managed to do this at all but had strayed from God repeatedly and grossly, coming under His judgment very severely. What hope, then, would they have had hearing him set such an impossible standard for them? None. Which paved the way for the "new and living way" (He. 10:18-22), separate from OT law-keeping, created in and through him on the cross, by which they could "come boldly unto the throne of grace."

And so, the verses you've offered as applying to Christians absolutely don't. They were for Jews within the Old Covenant context, showing them how useless law-keeping was as a means of acceptance with God and how vital, then, it was that the "new and living" way be established through his Atonement at Calvary.

 

[pandaflower]

Pandaflower....
What should we do....
quote the entire NT every time we wish to make a point?

This is the Theology Forum.
I was trained to give biblical support for what I state.

I do this.

This is not posting "snippets".
This is posting verses that support the position that Jesus and Paul had....
the forfeiture of salvation through disobedience to God.



No one who is IN CHRIST is lost.
Those who disobey God,
are NOT IN CHRIST.

Someone has to state this.

No one has to state a falsehood and in the process dare to implicate Jesus and Paul as collaborating in the falsehood someone insists is true.

You believe you will lose your salvation through disobedience.

OK.


No one else has to agree to be misled by your belief.

That is what must be stated. Because Jesus stated we are eternally secure. Salvation cannot be rescinded. Jesus will lose not one of whom the father gave him.

People,believe Jesus. Because God's grace salvation is irrevocable.

 

[pandaflower]

Of course it's not a teaching sustained by Christ!!

Do you understand what OSAS teaches?

We cannot make up our own definitions of words.

OSAS supporters will plainly state that a person can sin, even blaspheme God, and still be saved.

Perhaps if you accepted this definition of OSAS you might want to change your mind and begin to believe in
Eternal Security instead.

You can't just ignore the whole of the new testament in order to criticize eternal security.

Critics of eternal security in Christ label it, OSAS. So to condemn eternal security,salvation.

One way these critics do this is to insist eternal salvation is false.
And then they insist that it is false because thinking ones self saved forever in this life will lead to thinking we can sin without consequence.

The source of such ideas is atheism.
Strong radical atheists regularly mock the religious. Especially Christians whose faith guarantees eternal life and rewards with a God atheists insist cannot exist.

So,the rad-atheists conjure this myth that says,eternal salvation and security in Christ is a license to sin.

And some think it's true. And then begin their own campaigns against such a notion of eternal security in Christ.


When in truth eternal salvation is irrevocable in Christ.

And that's because Jesus tells us so.

Because those in him do NOT think they can sin at will and still remain saved. And this is because Jesus taught us this too.


Maybe stop condemning an atheist rooted fiction aimed at condemning our faith.

And instead feel eternally secure in Christ because nothing separates us from him,ever.
And certainly not the atheist fiction slur labeled,osas.