Thank you for your thoughts! Hope you can / might also interpret the AOD is the cross. It is and always will be THE most abominable” act that man could ever do … against our own God. This will cause God to make desolate His relationship with His people for almost 2000 years- the “time of the Gentiles,” and then, He will give them their “Damascus” experience and remove the blindness from their eyes.” This will then cause them to preach the Word of God AND the Testimony of Jesus as Paul did- a pure teaching of His Word not corrupted by the little horn over the past 1500 years. I will get back to you later on 2:41. Thanks again.
Nebuchadnezzar's Statue vs. Heads of the Beast - How Would You Link Them?
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Part 1
Daniel 2:41
41And whereas thou saw the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou saw the iron mixed with miry clay..
The fourth kingdom begins with pagan Rome (verse 40) and will continue in various forms until the end of time. This period encompasses part of the second-time bracket and the entirety of the third-time bracket within God's plan of salvation. The second-time bracket covers the seventy-weeks-of-years prophecy, which starts during the Medes-Persian Empire after the Jews return to Jerusalem (457 BC) and concludes 3.5 years after the cross, around 33/34 AD.
The third and final time bracket begins after the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy and continues until the end times, culminating in the second coming of the Messiah. This final period includes the remaining 400 years of the pagan Roman Empire. In the late fifth century AD, pagan Rome transitions into Papal Rome, representing the divided form of the fourth kingdom. This transition signifies a shift in power and influence, from the unified pagan Rome to the fragmented Papal Rome, which continues to exert its influence throughout history until the end times.
God has revealed a deliberate yet enigmatic method for understanding the events and transitions within the fourth kingdom of Rome, both before and after the stone strikes the feet. His use of symbolism in Daniel’s vision is intentional and structured, revealing profound truths that require careful interpretation. Rather than providing every step explicitly, God gives us key pieces of the puzzle, requiring us to actively engage with His Word to fully comprehend both the dream sequence and its interpretation.
The dream sequence (Daniel 2:31-35) presents a broad prophetic vision, illustrating the material composition of pagan Rome before the cross. However, it does not immediately disclose the intricate shifts that follow, leaving much of the kingdom’s transformation veiled in mystery. To unravel this mystery, we must turn to the interpretation sequence (Daniel 2:41-45), where God provides detailed symbolic elements that clarify the kingdom’s evolution.
A critical aspect of God’s prophetic structure is His deliberate use of iron and clay—not only to define the fourth kingdom’s composition but also to signal whether the prophecy refers to pagan Rome before or after the cross, or Papal Rome after the cross. By positioning iron or clay in a superior role, God marks which phase of the kingdom is being described.
Before the cross, iron dominates (Daniel 2:33), symbolizing pagan Rome’s military strength and control over God’s people (ceramic clay).
After the cross, the order reverses—clay takes precedence over iron (Daniel 2:41a), marking the rise of the Church within the empire and its eventual transition into Papal Rome. (as you can see how important 2:34 is to these verses / prophecies. It represents Jesus coming in the early first century to break apart the clay from within the iron feet (4th kingdom of Rome).
These shifts in placement serve as prophetic indicators, illustrating how the fourth kingdom evolves from a purely political and military empire into a religious-political system that exerts power in a new way. It should also be mentioned that these transitions take place over the next 500 years after the cross. Further, during this transition period, we will see pagan Rome move from a purely Imperial Empire to one that will embrace Christianity at the time of Constantine and then end with Papal Rome in power.
By connecting the interpretation sequence with the dream sequence, we uncover hidden relationships, structural shifts, and defining characteristics that reveal how pagan Rome before the cross transitions into Papal Rome after the cross. God’s use of iron and clay, and His purposeful positioning of each element, acts as a prophetic roadmap, guiding us through the transformation of the fourth kingdom.
This method requires diligent examination, as each symbolic detail functions as a puzzle piece, revealing the interplay of political, religious, and spiritual transformations within Rome. The vision in Daniel 2 is not merely a historical forecast—it is a layered, symbolic revelation, requiring us to connect the dream and interpretation sequences to fully grasp God’s prophetic blueprint.
Before examining Daniel 2:41-45, it is essential to recognize that God’s revelation is structured with purpose. His symbolism unveils truth, and the interpretation sequence is more than an explanation. By following this deliberate and symbolic design, we gain a profound understanding of the fourth kingdom’s evolution and its role in prophetic history.
The next few verses in Chapter 2 are quite complex and require careful interpretation. Verse 41 has four parts that require specific attention:
Part 1
Daniel 2:41
41And whereas thou saw the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou saw the iron mixed with miry clay..
The fourth kingdom begins with pagan Rome (verse 40) and will continue in various forms until the end of time. This period encompasses part of the second-time bracket and the entirety of the third-time bracket within God's plan of salvation. The second-time bracket covers the seventy-weeks-of-years prophecy, which starts during the Medes-Persian Empire after the Jews return to Jerusalem (457 BC) and concludes 3.5 years after the cross, around 33/34 AD.
The third and final time bracket begins after the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy and continues until the end times, culminating in the second coming of the Messiah. This final period includes the remaining 400 years of the pagan Roman Empire. In the late fifth century AD, pagan Rome transitions into Papal Rome, representing the divided form of the fourth kingdom. This transition signifies a shift in power and influence, from the unified pagan Rome to the fragmented Papal Rome, which continues to exert its influence throughout history until the end times.
God has revealed a deliberate yet enigmatic method for understanding the events and transitions within the fourth kingdom of Rome, both before and after the stone strikes the feet. His use of symbolism in Daniel’s vision is intentional and structured, revealing profound truths that require careful interpretation. Rather than providing every step explicitly, God gives us key pieces of the puzzle, requiring us to actively engage with His Word to fully comprehend both the dream sequence and its interpretation.
The dream sequence (Daniel 2:31-35) presents a broad prophetic vision, illustrating the material composition of pagan Rome before the cross. However, it does not immediately disclose the intricate shifts that follow, leaving much of the kingdom’s transformation veiled in mystery. To unravel this mystery, we must turn to the interpretation sequence (Daniel 2:41-45), where God provides detailed symbolic elements that clarify the kingdom’s evolution.
A critical aspect of God’s prophetic structure is His deliberate use of iron and clay—not only to define the fourth kingdom’s composition but also to signal whether the prophecy refers to pagan Rome before or after the cross, or Papal Rome after the cross. By positioning iron or clay in a superior role, God marks which phase of the kingdom is being described.
Before the cross, iron dominates (Daniel 2:33), symbolizing pagan Rome’s military strength and control over God’s people (ceramic clay).
After the cross, the order reverses—clay takes precedence over iron (Daniel 2:41a), marking the rise of the Church within the empire and its eventual transition into Papal Rome. (as you can see how important 2:34 is to these verses / prophecies. It represents Jesus coming in the early first century to break apart the clay from within the iron feet (4th kingdom of Rome).
These shifts in placement serve as prophetic indicators, illustrating how the fourth kingdom evolves from a purely political and military empire into a religious-political system that exerts power in a new way. It should also be mentioned that these transitions take place over the next 500 years after the cross. Further, during this transition period, we will see pagan Rome move from a purely Imperial Empire to one that will embrace Christianity at the time of Constantine and then end with Papal Rome in power.
By connecting the interpretation sequence with the dream sequence, we uncover hidden relationships, structural shifts, and defining characteristics that reveal how pagan Rome before the cross transitions into Papal Rome after the cross. God’s use of iron and clay, and His purposeful positioning of each element, acts as a prophetic roadmap, guiding us through the transformation of the fourth kingdom.
This method requires diligent examination, as each symbolic detail functions as a puzzle piece, revealing the interplay of political, religious, and spiritual transformations within Rome. The vision in Daniel 2 is not merely a historical forecast—it is a layered, symbolic revelation, requiring us to connect the dream and interpretation sequences to fully grasp God’s prophetic blueprint.
Before examining Daniel 2:41-45, it is essential to recognize that God’s revelation is structured with purpose. His symbolism unveils truth, and the interpretation sequence is more than an explanation. By following this deliberate and symbolic design, we gain a profound understanding of the fourth kingdom’s evolution and its role in prophetic history.
The next few verses in Chapter 2 are quite complex and require careful interpretation. Verse 41 has four parts that require specific attention:
41a: "Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and iron,"
41b: "The kingdom shall be divided,"
41c: "Yet the strength of the iron shall be in it,"
41d: "Just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic (miry) clay,"
End of Part 1Part 2
These elements provide a framework for understanding the divided nature and enduring strength of the fourth kingdom.
41a and 41b
In Daniel 2:33 of the dream sequence, the feet of the fourth kingdom are described as being partly iron and partly clay—in that order—but without any mention of the toes or the specific type of clay. At this stage, the feet represent pagan Rome before the Messiah arrives. Nebuchadnezzar, in his dream, sees the feet as a mixture of iron and clay, but the toes remain hidden from his view. Later, in Daniel 2:41d, Daniel clarifies that the clay within the feet is ceramic clay, a hardened and brittle material. This indicates that, to Nebuchadnezzar, the feet would have appeared as a solid structure of iron and hardened clay, completely encasing or hiding the ten toes that will later be revealed in Daniel 7.
The Messiah, represented by the stone cut without hands in Daniel 2:34, strikes these feet, breaking apart the iron and the ceramic clay. This impact does not destroy the entire image, but rather, it begins a symbolic process of division and separation within the fourth kingdom of Rome. The iron represents the Roman imperial power, and the ceramic clay symbolizes the Jews living under Roman rule. When the stone strikes, it breaks the hardened ceramic clay from the iron, allowing the Lord—the Potter—to take from it pieces of clay that He will shape and mold (Potter’s clay) as He desires.
This potter’s clay refers to those Jews who accept Jesus as their Messiah and are transformed into the first followers of the Gospel. These faithful ones, shaped by God’s hand, become the foundation of the early Church, which then expands to include millions of Gentiles. The act of breaking apart the ceramic clay from the iron symbolizes the division (divided kingdom) within Rome—not its immediate destruction. Jesus Himself spoke of this purpose in Matthew 10:34, declaring that He had come to bring a sword, not peace, meaning His arrival would divide those who accepted Him from those who rejected Him.
A key detail emerges in Daniel 2:41a, where the order of the iron and the clay is reversed. Instead of being described as iron and clay, it is now clay and iron—signaling that the potter’s clay (believing Jews and later Gentiles) has taken a superior position to that of the iron within the Roman world. This shift marks the beginning of the Jewish-Christian movement, a growing force within the fourth kingdom that does not destroy Rome but transforms it from within. The division caused by Christ's coming does not immediately bring the empire to an end; instead, it sets into motion a movement that will reshape the spiritual landscape of the world.
The ceramic clay, on the other hand, represents those Jews who remain hardened in their rejection of Jesus. While some are molded into potter’s clay, ready for the Lord’s work, others remain unyielding, keeping with their pre-cross Jewish faith within the iron kingdom of Rome. The cross is the defining event that separates these two groups, causing the fourth kingdom to be divided—just as Daniel prophesied in Daniel 2:41.
Thus, the stone’s strike is not a moment of destruction, but of separation. It is the act that breaks apart the elements within the fourth kingdom, distinguishing between those who will carry forward God’s plan of salvation and those who will remain part of a crumbling empire. The final destruction of all earthly kingdoms, including Rome, does not come until Daniel 2:35, at Christ’s second coming. But Daniel 2:34 marks the pivotal moment when the fourth kingdom is spiritually divided—when the Messiah’s arrival changes the course of history forever.
41C and 41D
In its earliest days, the Jewish-Christian Church had no military power and was subject to severe persecution under pagan Rome. Yet, despite the empire’s efforts to silence it, the Church did not disappear—it grew, spreading across the Roman world. The faith of those who followed Jesus the Messiah, could not be broken, even under oppression. However, the course of history was destined to change. In the early part of the fourth century, Constantine rose to power and ended the persecution of Christians. He declared Christianity an acceptable religion within pagan Rome, and within fifty years, it would become the official religion of the empire.
But this moment of religious acceptance also marked a fundamental shift within the Church itself. The strength of the iron shall be in it (Daniel 2:41c)—meaning that the Christian movement, which once had no worldly power, was now intertwined with the same iron-like strength that had once persecuted it. What had begun as a Jewish-Christian Church, persecuted but faithful, had now transitioned into a Gentile-Christian Church that carried the influence and power of Rome within it.
In Daniel 2:41d, the prophet confirms that the "strength" within this now divided kingdom is the same strength he saw in the fourth kingdom of pagan Rome (Daniel 2:33). Yet, just as before, the iron does not fully mix with the clay—a reality that defines both pagan Rome and the later divided kingdom of Papal Rome. The iron remains distinct from the clay, and the two elements never truly unite into a single, stable foundation. This ongoing instability and division is a key characteristic of the fourth kingdom’s transition from an empire of emperors to an empire of popes. Even after pagan Rome fell, the fourth kingdom continued in a divided state, its power now wielded by Papal Rome. The church that had once been persecuted had now become intertwined with political and military authority, enforcing its religious decrees through the strength of iron.
Where the imperial Caesars once ruled with force, the new rulers of this divided kingdom—their successors, Papal Rome would also use military-like power to extend their influence across the world — the strength of iron shall be in it.
This transformation did not mean that the divided kingdom of Papal Rome was passive or gentle. Whether the fourth kingdom was composed of iron and ceramic clay (pagan Rome before the cross and before Constantine, 2:33), or of potter’s clay and iron (post-Constantine up to Papal Rome), it continued to rely on the iron of Rome’s military power to assert its will. The transition from ceramic to potter’s clay, and the shift in their order of prominence, did not change the kingdom’s dependence on force and political dominance. Though potter’s clay represents those who initially followed Christ in faith, over time even this clay was shaped by the iron, leading to the rise of a religious system that would exercise authority much like the empire that came before it.
Daniel himself could not have fully grasped the depth of the visions before him. His prophetic words foreshadowed the crucifixion of his God, the non-military division of the fourth kingdom after the cross, and the establishment of Christ’s kingdom, which would spread throughout the Roman world. But his vision also foretold what would happen within 500 years of the Church’s growth—the gradual assimilation of Christ’s Church by the little horn who would head Papal Rome (which will be revealed in chapter 7).
Jesus did not come as a conquering king—not in the way the world expected. Instead, He came as a humble servant, to divide rather than to destroy. His kingdom was not built on military conquest but on truth, and His followers were to spread His message, not by force, but by the power of the Holy Spirit. Yet, even as His kingdom grew, the iron of Rome would still be found within it—and the divided nature of the fourth kingdom would remain until the day that the stone, once rejected, returns to bring all human kingdoms to an end.
The Scriptures in Jeremiah, Romans, Isaiah, and Luke speak about the "potter’s clay." In Jeremiah 18:1-6, we read about how God, as the Potter, shapes and reshapes the clay, symbolizing His authority and ability to mold His people according to His will. Romans 9:20-21 discusses how the potter has the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use, highlighting God's sovereignty. Isaiah 64:8 reminds us that we are the clay, and God is our Potter, emphasizing our dependence on Him. Luke 12:7 tells us that even the very hairs of our head are all numbered, assuring us of God's intimate care and knowledge of us. In these passages, the metaphor of the potter’s clay illustrates God's control and care, aligning with the vision in Daniel where the potter’s clay represents those who accept Jesus as their Messiah and spread the Good News.
Please consider the above and I look forward to your questions... Thanks.
Yet to come. Dan 8.17,19,26 says as much. Await the fall of Khamenei, the rise of Javan (Turkey) and the formation of an Islamic coalition.
If you do not mind, I would like to ask a couple of questions:
1) In Daniel chapter 7, is the 4th beast kingdom pagan Rome - the same kingdom that was identified in chapter 2?
2) And I certainly believe it is. Now, then, who is the 10 horns and the little horn that comes out from this indescribable 4th beast kingdom? Thanks.
The seven are part of the 10 nations of Psalm 83. Forming an alliance to destroy Israel, Psalm 83.4. The three subdued are likely the 3 nations of Dan 11.41. And is explained why in Deut 2 and mentioned in Psalm 83.8 They are subdued by the AC in a power struggle in Dan 7.24. In Dan 2 as 10 toes.
1. No, I would consider a forth coming islamic coalition. If you listen to Erdogan he has called for one three times this year in March, June, and as recent as yesterday. The fourth kingdom has to be related to Isaac and Jacob. Its a family feud, Rome is a distraction in my view.
2. Read Psalm 83 , come they say let us destroy them as a nation, so Israel's name is remembered no more. Count the nations. 10. Three of those same nations are listed in Dan 11.41 Moab, Edom, Ammon. They are probably the three subdued in Dan 7.24. And hence why only seven heads in Rev 13 and 17.
The answers are always in scripture, read prophecy as prophecy not history, scripture confirms scripture. Its all in there. Jer 33.3 Call and I will tell you....
Daniel chapter 7
2Daniel spoke, saying, “I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea. 3And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other. 4The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.
Here God is telling us there will be 4 and only 4 beasts that will come out of the sea. Meaning, we are not to add or subtract from these 4 beasts in number or identity. This is not an historical recounting of kingdoms but it will include only those actors, kingdoms and events that He wants to include in HIs plan of restoration and salvation for His people and mankind.
He reveals the first king as a lion with wings - this Is Nebuchadnezzar. (notice, unlike chapter 2 which showed us the same 4 but at the "kingdom" level, here in chapter 7, He is revealing the 4 at the "king" level.
5“And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: ‘Arise, devour much flesh!’
Here is our second king (s) (which matches the same kingdom in chapter 2). This represents both Cyrus and Darius of the Medes- Persia kingdom of chapter 2.
6“After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.
Here is our third king symbolized as a leopard. This is Alexander the Great of Greece. The 4 wings represent the swiftness he would conquer his enemies and the 4 heads would represent the 4 generals that would be given the 4 territories of his empire after he died.
7“After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking [c]pompous words.
And finally, we have the 4th and final beast that God has decreed to come out of the sea. It is the same 4th beast identified in chapter 2 but now with different symbols as were the other 3 in chapter 7. This is Rome. What this verse does not tell us specifically, is the timing of this beast. We know it represents Rome but when or what time of its reign.
What we do know is that the 10 toes that were once held in the feet of the Roman Empire in chapter 2 and now symbolized as 10 horns. They were onced encased within the feet and are now being shown to be "coming out of the beast." Essentially, these 10 have been freed from their captivity within the Roman Empire. And although it is not mentioned (yet) in chapter 7, the clay element in chapter 2 has been freed up from within the feet of the iron kingdom of pagan Rome.
But what we do find is a brand new actor from chapter 2 being revealed. He is the little horn. We do not yet know who this actor is but we do know he also "comes out" of the 4th beast but ONLY after the 10 horns emerge (and once again, we are not yet able to define the exact timing this takes place within the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome (not yet).
At this time, we do not have to focus on the 3 horns that were plucked up.... the focus is on the identification of the 4 kingdoms, the 10 horns and the timinf of the event that comes now - verse 11.
11“I watched then because of the sound of the [f]pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
And here we come to one of the important "keys" in chapter 7 - timing. The two important questions to ask are the following:
1) In verse 11, what kingdom or beast was slain? (we know it can only be one of the four that God decreed that would come out of the sea - has to be either Babylon, Medes-Persia, Greece or Rome.
2) And here is the answer - consider verse 12 - "as for the rest of the beasts.... their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged ...."
Here God is telling us that there will be one of the 4 kingdoms will be slain AND the other 3 (the other 3 of the 4 beasts that came out of the sea) would not be destroyed but be allowed to continue..... So, who are these 3 beasts that were not slain?
Remember, there are 4 and only 4 beasts that God has decreed that would come out of the sea.... we know who all 4 are, and we know that one of them will be slain in verse 7:11. Who is that one and who are the 3 that will continue on?
This is perhaps one of the most important prophetic verses that will identiy the timing of Daniel chapter 7 and will ensure the actors, kingdoms, events within the chapter 7 vision is properly interpreted. And if you consider this ... you will realize that Daniel 7 is not speaking of end time events (with the exception of the verses that are specifially addressing the "heavenly realm."
So, look forward to your thoughts on this....
2Daniel spoke, saying, “I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea. 3And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other. 4The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.
Here God is telling us there will be 4 and only 4 beasts that will come out of the sea. Meaning, we are not to add or subtract from these 4 beasts in number or identity. This is not an historical recounting of kingdoms but it will include only those actors, kingdoms and events that He wants to include in HIs plan of restoration and salvation for His people and mankind.
He reveals the first king as a lion with wings - this Is Nebuchadnezzar. (notice, unlike chapter 2 which showed us the same 4 but at the "kingdom" level, here in chapter 7, He is revealing the 4 at the "king" level.
5“And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: ‘Arise, devour much flesh!’
Here is our second king (s) (which matches the same kingdom in chapter 2). This represents both Cyrus and Darius of the Medes- Persia kingdom of chapter 2.
6“After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.
Here is our third king symbolized as a leopard. This is Alexander the Great of Greece. The 4 wings represent the swiftness he would conquer his enemies and the 4 heads would represent the 4 generals that would be given the 4 territories of his empire after he died.
7“After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking [c]pompous words.
And finally, we have the 4th and final beast that God has decreed to come out of the sea. It is the same 4th beast identified in chapter 2 but now with different symbols as were the other 3 in chapter 7. This is Rome. What this verse does not tell us specifically, is the timing of this beast. We know it represents Rome but when or what time of its reign.
What we do know is that the 10 toes that were once held in the feet of the Roman Empire in chapter 2 and now symbolized as 10 horns. They were onced encased within the feet and are now being shown to be "coming out of the beast." Essentially, these 10 have been freed from their captivity within the Roman Empire. And although it is not mentioned (yet) in chapter 7, the clay element in chapter 2 has been freed up from within the feet of the iron kingdom of pagan Rome.
But what we do find is a brand new actor from chapter 2 being revealed. He is the little horn. We do not yet know who this actor is but we do know he also "comes out" of the 4th beast but ONLY after the 10 horns emerge (and once again, we are not yet able to define the exact timing this takes place within the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome (not yet).
At this time, we do not have to focus on the 3 horns that were plucked up.... the focus is on the identification of the 4 kingdoms, the 10 horns and the timinf of the event that comes now - verse 11.
11“I watched then because of the sound of the [f]pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
And here we come to one of the important "keys" in chapter 7 - timing. The two important questions to ask are the following:
1) In verse 11, what kingdom or beast was slain? (we know it can only be one of the four that God decreed that would come out of the sea - has to be either Babylon, Medes-Persia, Greece or Rome.
2) And here is the answer - consider verse 12 - "as for the rest of the beasts.... their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged ...."
Here God is telling us that there will be one of the 4 kingdoms will be slain AND the other 3 (the other 3 of the 4 beasts that came out of the sea) would not be destroyed but be allowed to continue..... So, who are these 3 beasts that were not slain?
Remember, there are 4 and only 4 beasts that God has decreed that would come out of the sea.... we know who all 4 are, and we know that one of them will be slain in verse 7:11. Who is that one and who are the 3 that will continue on?
This is perhaps one of the most important prophetic verses that will identiy the timing of Daniel chapter 7 and will ensure the actors, kingdoms, events within the chapter 7 vision is properly interpreted. And if you consider this ... you will realize that Daniel 7 is not speaking of end time events (with the exception of the verses that are specifially addressing the "heavenly realm."
So, look forward to your thoughts on this....
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I was and still hoping to receive some responses from many of the folks within this site that have already expressed their thoughts on the book of Daniel and specifically, the 4 kingdoms, and whether these verses are end time verses or not. I would also like to add to the above the following for your consideration:
1) the kingdom that saw its demise in 7:11 is Rome (pagan Rome to be specific) in 476 AD. The other 3 kingdoms identified in the metal man image and again in chapter 7, Babylon, Medes-Persia, and Greece were not destroyed but their lives would be prolonged.... this also states they would never again have or hold dominion over another ... each has had their time of dominion but after Rome conquered the known world, these 3 previous kingdoms, their culture, their religions, their philosophy's, etc., would continue until the end of time. And of course, we can certainly see them throughout the world.... but those 3 kingdoms will never again have dominance over another nation or kingdom again.
What does this mean"
1) If pagan Rome was slain in 476 AD, and it was, then the 10 horns and the little horn had to "come out of the 4th beast kingdom" BEFORE it was slain in 476 AD, And this is one of the most important reasonse to focus on these verses - they indeed give us the time line for Daniel 7 and also, all of the subsequent chapters - they build off of each other and do not step out of line of this time line.
2) So the 10 horns came out of the 4th kingdom in chapter 7 - they are now found on the outside of the beast - freed up, where they were previously found in chapter 2 to be kept within the control of pagan Rome (encased within the iron feet of pagan Rome) and identified as the 10 toes.
3) the little horn was not in existence before the cross, but would "come out" of the 4th beast (pagan Rome) AFTER the 10 horns surfaced.
4) Chapter 7 is identifying those events that will take place within the 4th beast kingdom of pagan Rome, which of course centers around the arrival of the Messiah and His crucifixion, and what takes place AFTER the cross. And most of Daniel speaks in details up to the time the little horn comes to "sit atop" the 4th beast kingdom. But remember, pagan Rome was slain in 476 AD, and it was indeed replaced by the powerful Christian church. The Christian church would soon come to gain power and authority over all civil and religious matters throughout the once named Roman Empire. And of the 4 major Christian center during the time (first 400 years after the cross) of Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusale and Rome, where each had their own very power bishops, the one bishop who would rise to "sit atop" the new 4th kingdom beast was the most powerful bishop - the bishop of Rome.
5) Within a relativey short period of time, the bishop of Rome, now head over the entire Christian church (both civil and religious matters), would be come to be known as the pope and his papacy of ruling priests, cardinals, etc. But prophetically, God would identify him as the "little horn." So, he is not some mythical supernatural boogeyman coming at the end of time to destroy the Jews, but one that began in the same church that was started by Christ, preached to the world by His Jewish followers in the first century, and then would grow exponentially throughout the empire through the conversion of millions of gentiles. These gentiles, by the time of Constantine would hold all of the positions of authority and power in this church... they would remove any semblence of their Jewish roots.
6) And of course, the church would become known as the RCC and would grow in power and scope even greater, much greater than even pagan Rome. They will continue to the end when they / he will be destroyed without human hands - God.
Look forward to your thoughts.....
Holding on to the presented false theological understanding of the reformation fathers in their attempt to demonise the RCC, means that we wrongly associate the Statue Prophecy in Daniel 2 with the description of the influencing Beasts of Daniel 7.
Daniel 2's statue prophecy is presenting the kingdom and empires that will have dominion over the land of Babylon from the time of Daniel living in Babylon up to this present time.
Daniel 7 speaks of the ability of the four winds of heaven, i.e. fallen heavenly hosts, and the fifth heavenly host who have the ability to influence/manifest themselves within the sea of humanity over a period of time for Daniel 7:1-12 which finishes in around 20 years' time when the wicked heavenly hosts will be judged at the same time as the kings of the earth and together they will be imprisoned for many years before they are released and are able to once more do their thing during the little while period which will begin in around 1,020 years from now.
Without God's understanding of what has been prophesied in the Book of Daniel, this book has been seal up such that our understanding is rather muddled and flawed.
Remember that the loudest voices on the Book of Daniel are not always right.
Well, thank you for your thoughts.... but I believe we are not on the same page.... I believe the symbols provided by God in chapter 2,7,8,9, and 11 are speak as one.... they provide for a consistent and clean intepretation from Babylon to the end of time. However, almost all of Daniel takes us from Babylon to the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy (last week where the Messiah will fulfill His God given mission of 9:24), and then it will take us after the cross to the coming of the little horn and his appropriation of His church and his corruption of His Word and the 10 commandments. But everyone is entitled to their own interpretations... best wishes.
I'd tend to we treat Dan 2 as prophecy for our time. And Dan 7. And Dan 8. And Dan 11.
Im trying to hear what He is saying today, not two thousand plus years ago.
So you would accept the following RCC claims rejected by the Reformers?
- “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
- “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
- “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.
That is a red herring as far as I am concerned. Jeremiah tells us in Jer 50, that the Land of Babylon will be desolated and devastated for a period of two ages by the king to its north, i.e. the Seleucid Empire, and this happened around 60 years before the Roman Empire held dominion over the Lands of the Middle East.
So the fourth entity of the Statue prophecy that has held dominion over the land of Babylon since 1926 AD is the nation of Iraq.
The fifth entity of the Statue Prophecy that has had dominion over the Land of Babylon, i.e. Iraq is the USA and the nations that invaded Iraq in 2003 AD.
This means that the Daniel 2 statue prophecy and the Daniel 7 beast prophecy has no common topology to link either prophecy together which is what the reformation fathers did to demonise the RCC.
Yes, blasphemy is merely a red herring.
The only red herring is your refusal to answer a simple question.
Thanks for your confirmation of your acceptance of papal blasphemies.
And thank God for the Reformers and the Reformation, whom God raised up to deliver His True Church from spiritual ignorance, blindness, and oppression.
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Yes, blasphemy is merely a red herring.
The only red herring is your refusal to answer a simple question.
Thanks for your confirmation of your acceptance of papal blasphemies.
And thank God for the Reformers and the Reformation, whom God raised up to deliver His True Church from spiritual ignorance, blindness, and oppression.
What I confirmed was that I accepted what the scriptures foretold to us by both Daniel and Jeremiah.
We have today the same problems as faced at the time of the reformation in that the church is still suffering from spiritual ignorance, blindness and oppression from loud vocal members of the body because other members do not hold to the same beliefs that they hold onto.
History confirms to us that the Roman Empire had no dominion over the land of Babylon. That the Land of Babylon lay dormant for just over 2,000 years, before the land of Babylon became populated as a nation in 1926 AD, which is known as Iraq today and was foretold to us by John the Apostle in Rev 16:17ff.
And yes, I did answer your question, by ignoring your charge that I hold to the papal blasphemies and pointing out what the scriptures actually present in the recorded prophecies.
Sadly, too many branches of the churches today also hold onto the same understanding surrounding the Roman Empire as you do. That does not mean that this understanding is right; it only means that many who are part of the Body of Christ have been mislead into believing false teaching.
Goodbye
Please cite the Books, Chapters, and Verses of Scriptures which present the following:
- “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
- “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
- “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.
Goodbye, I have no interest in the above. My sense is that you already know the answers to the above request.
From memory, are you not an SDA card holder.
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