The Church decided the canon. How do you know you have the correct canon?

[One 2 question]

I just wonder do the Jews of today read the other books like 1 and 2 Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, Baruch?

As you have noticed a lot of protestants jump to conclusions on books like those, I am careful not to, as they may have very well been part of the original Bible before the English translations came about.

What if King James got it wrong all those years ago to leave out those 7 books?

I am also well aware the Catholic & Orthodox denominations have been around for a lot longer that the 1000s of other Christian denominations.

Of course the original bible King James commissioned people to compile had 80 books. For some reason some were removed and they ended up with 66.

 

[One 2 question]

The Church decided the canon. How do you know you have the correct canon?

Someone may say, Does it really matter at the end of the day?
Aren't they just varying quantities of the same substance originating from the same source, that is, the mouth of God?

Every member has a different experience and testimony of how God has been changing them into the image of Christ.

Even though it is the same God and Father, the same Christ and the same indwelling Spirit.

All divine truth comes from the same source, out of the same mouth, the mouth of God.

We all get only fragments of truth. Some are personal revelations while some are for sharing with others.

Most of these fragments were never recorded. But I say that's OK too. As we have the same Spirit Who inspired those in the past. This same Person within us moves us along and leads us into all truth. Jesus Himself promised that.

 

[nedsk]

Friend, You either believe the Bible or you don't.
The sacred Scriptures plainly say it is sin to ADD to Gods word.

You must again deny the sacred Scriptures to claim the Bible is not perfect ,completed was once for all delivered.

Jude 3,
- beloved when I gave all diligence to write to unto you of the common salvation it was needful for me to write unto you and exhort you that we should contend earnestly for the faith(gospel)
which was(past tense) once delivered(it was ONCE delivered in the past) unto the saints

Once delivered means just that.
It was only one time in history that the gospel of Jesus Christ was delivered unto the saints.
Catholics do not believe this, teach this nor practice this.

No such thing as extra Biblical inspired writings in the future from the time the revelation of God i.e. The Holy Bible was completed.

So nothing that says Scripture only.

You folks refuse to believe the bible.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Protestants have 66 books, we have 76 in Orthodoxy. A lot of times people say God decided the canon of the Bible and while we can all agree, it is still avoiding the question as to when and how God did it. Famous Protestant scholars F.F. Bruce and Lee McDonald show in their books on the formation of the canon that there was no fixed OT canon and that the early church fathers had differing canons, many of which included the apocrypha.

A common answer Protestants give when asked about how they know the correct canon is citing the book of John where it says we are guided by the Holy Spirit. However, this is presupposing that the book of John belongs in the canon when in fact the question is prior or a priori to Scripture. We cannot go to the scriptures to tell us what the correct canon is when the canon itself is what’s in question along with the book of John.

If the Church truly went rogue as the reformers claimed, then wouldn’t it be conceivable for all of us come to up with our own canon on that basis? If I said the Bible is just the first four books of the New Testament, who would anyone be to tell me I’m wrong?

It only makes sense that there is a historical Church because Christ himself lived in history. Christianity and the Bible cannot be divorced from its history.

Love the topic! I actually just setup an AI account at ai.Invidio and my first test run on a video movie is on the history of the formation of the Canon. Gonna drop a link here as a test.

Turn ideas into videos | AI video creator | invideo AI

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Protestants have 66 books, we have 76 in Orthodoxy. A lot of times people say God decided the canon of the Bible and while we can all agree, it is still avoiding the question as to when and how God did it. Famous Protestant scholars F.F. Bruce and Lee McDonald show in their books on the formation of the canon that there was no fixed OT canon and that the early church fathers had differing canons, many of which included the apocrypha.

A common answer Protestants give when asked about how they know the correct canon is citing the book of John where it says we are guided by the Holy Spirit. However, this is presupposing that the book of John belongs in the canon when in fact the question is prior or a priori to Scripture. We cannot go to the scriptures to tell us what the correct canon is when the canon itself is what’s in question along with the book of John.

If the Church truly went rogue as the reformers claimed, then wouldn’t it be conceivable for all of us come to up with our own canon on that basis? If I said the Bible is just the first four books of the New Testament, who would anyone be to tell me I’m wrong?

It only makes sense that there is a historical Church because Christ himself lived in history. Christianity and the Bible cannot be divorced from its history.

I agree and have a similar viewpoint! One thing that gets left out of these discussions are the various how's and whys of history. People act as if the received books are somehow obviously that way, like they glow in the dark from the Shekinah glory of the Lord rather than they were the ones used by orthodox catholic Christians in their worship, and testified by them.

Most folks also would not realize that a heretic (Marcion) pushed the issue. The issue of Canonization, also does not really make sense without the invention of the Codex, and wanting to have a common Bible for the new churches established by Constantine. folks were just fine with a lot of scrolls, and papyri lying around used whenever needed. Canonization is more like having a White list that keeps the heretical books out of the Church in the same way that certain antivirus firewall software has an approved list of web sites to log into etc.

 

[amigo de christo]

Because this sheep knows by grace TRUTH when i hear or read it .
but many are as pilate who asked JESUS
but what is TRUTH .
The sheep know HIS VOICE .
And i know full well the bible IS HIS TRUTH .
What , dont you know what truth sounds like .
DO we know the TRUTH when we see and hear it
or are we as many who at best can only discern truths but NOT THE TRUTH ITSELF .
SO , lets bible up shall we . Get busy learning for ourselves .

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Well said.
Having read some of the early church writings that didn't make the cut, I'll have to say that the 66 book canon hit the mark.

That being said I think the question about whether God wanted us to have a Bible at all is a good question.
For the most part this has led to a dependence on a book rather than a dependence on the author. (bibliolatry)
A dependence on reading words rather than hearing His voice. A relationship with an institution rather than God.

[

Coming in late to the conversation. I am learning a new AI, a video making one which should be of immense help because I would like to get back to content creation. Anyway the history of the New Testament Canonization process is a pet topic of mine, seeing how it is important and just not really considered by Protestants myself previously included in that remark. Anyway, this is my second shot which I like better, but maybe want to do a third shot combining the best elements of video 1 and video 2, later. But here is video 2 for those interested.

Turn ideas into videos | AI video creator | invideo AI

Make videos easily by giving a prompt to invideo AI. Ideal for content creators, YouTubers and marketers, invideo AI offers a seamless way to turn your ideas into publish-ready videos with AI.

ai.invideo.io

 

[One 2 question]

Because this sheep knows by grace TRUTH when i hear or read it .
but many are as pilate who asked JESUS
but what is TRUTH .
The sheep know HIS VOICE .
And i know full well the bible IS HIS TRUTH .
What , dont you know what truth sounds like .
DO we know the TRUTH when we see and hear it
or are we as many who at best can only discern truths but NOT THE TRUTH ITSELF .
SO , lets bible up shall we . Get busy learning for ourselves .

But you are only learning from the few fragments that were found and translated into your language. Such an extremely limited source my friend. But hey, if you want to limit yourself to the bible than go for it. But for some of us we are enjoying the truth straight from Christ in heaven delivered to us by the Holy Spirit of Truth.

 

[One 2 question]

Coming in late to the conversation. I am learning a new AI, a video making one which should be of immense help because I would like to get back to content creation. Anyway the history of the New Testament Canonization process is a pet topic of mine, seeing how it is important and just not really considered by Protestants myself previously included in that remark. Anyway, this is my second shot which I like better, but maybe want to do a third shot combining the best elements of video 1 and video 2, later. But here is video 2 for those interested.

Turn ideas into videos | AI video creator | invideo AI

Make videos easily by giving a prompt to invideo AI. Ideal for content creators, YouTubers and marketers, invideo AI offers a seamless way to turn your ideas into publish-ready videos with AI.

ai.invideo.io

If AI was available in Jesus's day and could have access to every word Jesus spoke and every act Jesus carried out, how big would that file be. Then add to that, everyone's account of what Jesus did, then the file would be massive. And if this AI generated file was printed, John said maybe even the whole world couldn't contain it all.

So the bible is soooo extremely limited in its scope and volume wouldn't you agree.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

If AI was available in Jesus's day and could have access to every word Jesus spoke and every act Jesus carried out, how big would that file be. Then add to that, everyone's account of what Jesus did, then the file would be massive. And if this AI generated file was printed, John said maybe even the whole world couldn't contain it all.

So the bible is soooo extremely limited in its scope and volume wouldn't you agree.

That kind of topic has come up before for me. Not the AI part, but there is a notion with some folks especially Pentecostals and Charismatic that Mattias being consecrated as an Apostle prior to Pentecost was a mistake. Now there are plenty of reasons to believe that this idea is the thing that is mistaken based on the Bible some prominent Bible verses which tell that Jesus breathed on his disciples and gave them the Holy Spirit, explained the scriptures too them, and there are various Biblical typologies etc. that also are important of why they felt the need to do what they did. But besides that Jesus was hanging out with them over a month before he ascended to heaven, and one would almost have to bet they covered the whole Mattias thing way before it happened, but that detail not specifically covered in the text.

 

[Marvelloustime]

Because this sheep knows by grace TRUTH when i hear or read it .
but many are as pilate who asked JESUS
but what is TRUTH .
The sheep know HIS VOICE .
And i know full well the bible IS HIS TRUTH .
What , dont you know what truth sounds like .
DO we know the TRUTH when we see and hear it
or are we as many who at best can only discern truths but NOT THE TRUTH ITSELF .
SO , lets bible up shall we . Get busy learning for ourselves .

@amigo de christo

 

[soberxp]

Finally I can trust Holy spirit.

 

[Rockerduck]

It is easy for me to distinguish between Holy Spirit inspired writing and "church", and outside sources. It is just as easy for any Holy Spirit filled believer to. I can read the Psalms and Distinguish between the Holy Spirt inspired ones and the non-Holy Spirit inspired. The early church did the same, after Marcion produced his bible. That forced the Church leaders to conform to a standard themselves.

 

[amigo de christo]

But you are only learning from the few fragments that were found and translated into your language. Such an extremely limited source my friend. But hey, if you want to limit yourself to the bible than go for it. But for some of us we are enjoying the truth straight from Christ in heaven delivered to us by the Holy Spirit of Truth.

Rather odd , however , is the fact that many sure are seemingly enjoying the truth straight from Christ
ONLY ITS NOT TRUTH and ITS NOT COMING of CHRIST .
cause its contradicting the TRUTH of HIS OWN words in the scrips . SO i sure as heck
would not want to be ENJOYING THAT mess .

 

[nedsk]

Rather odd , however , is the fact that many sure are seemingly enjoying the truth straight from Christ
ONLY ITS NOT TRUTH and ITS NOT COMING of CHRIST .
cause its contradicting the TRUTH of HIS OWN words in the scrips . SO i sure as heck
would not want to be ENJOYING THAT mess .

Some people are very selective about which "TRUTHS" they wish to pay attention to.

 

[One 2 question]

Rather odd , however , is the fact that many sure are seemingly enjoying the truth straight from Christ
ONLY ITS NOT TRUTH and ITS NOT COMING of CHRIST .
cause its contradicting the TRUTH of HIS OWN words in the scrips . SO i sure as heck
would not want to be ENJOYING THAT mess .

What we enjoy is the truth which comes through whatever means Christ chooses.

The words of God are inexhaustible. Until I die my words will continue to be expressed. God, Who never dies, will never stop expressing His thoughts and speaking His words.

 

[One 2 question]

Some people are very selective about which "TRUTHS" they wish to pay attention to.

Exactly. Not just some Christians but most Christians are very selective about which "TRUTHS" they wish to pay attention to. Like those who selected what fragments of writings should be collated and form the bible.

Of course this book only contains extremely selective truths which God has given over time to angels and humans.

 

[amigo de christo]

What we enjoy is the truth which comes through whatever means Christ chooses.

The words of God are inexhaustible. Until I die my words will continue to be expressed. God, Who never dies, will never stop expressing His thoughts and speaking His words.

Okay confuscious .
but just remember , Any word or words that come OF GOD
aint gonna twist and omit the TRUTH of the scrips left to us .
SO , lets just keep it real shall we .
I aint afraid to stand and remind all to be reading and learning the scrips .
But lets keep it real shall we .
WE both know there are things in that bible , YOU NO longer want to beleive is true or applies to us .
Many love sin my friend and they will always adapt as do a chameleon to fit the times they live in ..........

 

[amigo de christo]

What we enjoy is the truth which comes through whatever means Christ chooses.

The words of God are inexhaustible. Until I die my words will continue to be expressed. God, Who never dies, will never stop expressing His thoughts and speaking His words.

Reader take heed .
I noticed you said until i die my words will continue to be expressed . well that is true .
And GOD who never dies will never stop expressing His own words and thoughts . TRUE .
But GOD , unlike man CANNOT LIE .
And GOD unlike man WILL NOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF .
SO , LETS BIBLE UP SHALL WE
because no matter the fact that GOD still speaks to us today
ANY thought or any voice we think we hear and beleive is OF GOD
that contradicts the scripture , IT AINT OF GOD AT ALL .
Lets keep that IN MIND shall we .

 

[One 2 question]

Okay confuscious .
but just remember , Any word or words that come OF GOD
aint gonna twist and omit the TRUTH of the scrips left to us .
SO , lets just keep it real shall we .
I aint afraid to stand and remind all to be reading and learning the scrips .
But lets keep it real shall we .
WE both know there are things in that bible , YOU NO longer want to beleive is true or applies to us .
Many love sin my friend and they will always adapt as do a chameleon to fit the times they live in ..........

Yes I have an ongoing relationship with the living Creator Who shares Himself with His creation.

I know that His eternal purpose is to reveal His manifold wisdom to the principalities and powers in heavenly places. God is making it about Himself and His created spirit being. We, of this creation are used as His means of declaring and manifesting His complex, multifaceted divine wisdom.

I used to over emphasis the importance of our role as humans, especially the church, but I've come to see that the Creator is about revealing Himself to the angels, the faithful and unfaithful.