Crucifixion Question

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Titus

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First, we are not told that he was baptized, and second, how could he have been baptized whilst hanging on a cross?
That's right, we aren't told he was baptized. We also aren't told he was not yet you speculate he wasnt.

Did the thief hang on the cross His entire life?
We don't know anything about his life before the cross.
All we know is he was a thief and the Romans chose to punish him for it with crucifixion.

Do we know how long he lived as a thief? No.
Do we know why he stole? No.
Do we know his reasoning for stealing? No.
Do we know if he he only stole once or multiple times? No.

Also, I would say that it was because he new he didn't have a good heart which is why he needed to repent, and needed a Saviour.
Yes he sinned as we all do. His heart wasn't right as all of us do sin against God.
But just like folks who have fallen but repent because they love God, he did the same.

I stop condemning people of their sin when they repent of it.
Too many continue to condemn others of their sins even after they repent.
Repentance is a CHANGE of heart.

As I said before, both he and his fellow-thief had mocked Jesus on the cross to start with. Mocking the Saviour doesn't result from having a good heart.
Not every gospel says he mocked Jesus.
Matthew and Mark but not Luke.
I'm not sure he did.
The Bible uses figures of speech just as we do in all languages today.

The books that do say they mocked Jesus could be using a figure of speech known as Synecdoche.
Its possible Matthew and Mark used the plural in place of the singular in their accounts of the thieves reviling Christ.

Heres another example of a plural used for a singular.
Genesis 8:4 indicates Noah's ark rested on the mountains of Ararat.
Did Noah's ark rest on one of the mountains of Ararat or did it rest on all of them?
Noah's ark was huge but obviously was not large enough to rest on all the mountains of Ararat.
It rested on one.

Genesis 21:7 Sarah asked, Who would have said to Abraham that Sarah would nurse  children
Sarah nursed a son.

We cannot be dogmatic and say both or only one thief mocked Jesus.


Lastly, I love your quote from Psalm 19
Good, let us both put it into practice.
 

David Lamb

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That's right, we aren't told he was baptized. We also aren't told he was not yet you speculate he wasnt.

Did the thief hang on the cross His entire life?
Of course not.
We don't know anything about his life before the cross.
All we know is he was a thief and the Romans chose to punish him for it with crucifixion.
Yes we know he was a thief/robber, and we know from the record of the crucifixion that he was a mocker of Jesus.
Do we know how long he lived as a thief? No.
Do we know why he stole? No.
Do we know his reasoning for stealing? No.
Do we know if he he only stole once or multiple times? No.


Yes he sinned as we all do. His heart wasn't right as all of us do sin against God.
But just like folks who have fallen but repent because they love God, he did the same.

I stop condemning people of their sin when they repent of it.
Too many continue to condemn others of their sins even after they repent.
Repentance is a CHANGE of heart.


Not every gospel says he mocked Jesus.
Matthew and Mark but not Luke.
I'm not sure he did.
So don't you believe in things, or are unsure of things, that are recorded by Matthew but not by the other gospel writers? Things like the wise men visiting the young Jesus, Herod's killing of the young boys, the journey of Mary, Joseph and Jesus to Egypt, for example?
The Bible uses figures of speech just as we do in all languages today.

The books that do say they mocked Jesus could be using a figure of speech known as Synecdoche.
Its possible Matthew and Mark used the plural in place of the singular in their accounts of the thieves reviling Christ.
Really? I thought a synecdoche was a figure of speech in which a part is made to represent the whole, as in England lost by six wickets (meaning ‘the English cricket team’). Are you saying that Matthew and Mark used the plural, when in fact, according to you, only one robber mocked Jesus?

Heres another example of a plural used for a singular.
Genesis 8:4 indicates Noah's ark rested on the mountains of Ararat.
Did Noah's ark rest on one of the mountains of Ararat or did it rest on all of them?
Noah's ark was huge but obviously was not large enough to rest on all the mountains of Ararat.
It rested on one.

Genesis 21:7 Sarah asked, Who would have said to Abraham that Sarah would nurse  children
Sarah nursed a son.
But those examples don't mean that every time we come across a plurality in Scripture, it must be a synecdoche. For instance:

“Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to Him, saying, “Teacher, we want You to do for us whatever we ask.” And He said to them, “What do you want Me to do for you?” They said to Him, “Grant us that we may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on Your left, in Your glory.”” (Mr 10:35-37 NKJV)

We surely don't assume that only one of them approached Jesus with the request.
We cannot be dogmatic and say both or only one thief mocked Jesus.
Unless there is clear evidence that Mark and Matthew were using a figure of speech, then both of them mocked Jesus.
Good, let us both put it into practice.
Thanks for replying.
 

Titus

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Yes we know he was a thief/robber, and we know from the record of the crucifixion that he was a mocker of Jesus
Luke doesn't say he was only one.
Luke 23:39-43,
- and  one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on Jesus saying, if thou be the Christ save thyself and us

But the other(the thief who repented) answering rebuked him saying, Dost thou not fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation


Now listen to what our subject matter says about Jesus,
Verse 41,
- and indeed justly for we receive the due reward of our works but this man(Jesus) hath done nothing amiss
and he said unto Jesus, Lord remember me when thou comest into thy Kingdom


So no I will not speculate as you have and be dogmatic one way or the other,
So don't you believe in things, or are unsure of things, that are recorded by Matthew but not by the other gospel writers? Things like the wise men visiting the young Jesus, Herod's killing of the young boys, the journey of Mary, Joseph and Jesus to Egypt, for example?
Your other examples do not equate with different accounts of what was said of the thief on the cross.
Nothing said has nothing to compare to another writer.
Your reasoning is flawed. Luke didn't say the thief mocked Jesus.
By your reasoning of the scriptures Luke or Matthew has to be wrong. You are causing conflict among the gospel accounts by claiming the thief did mock Jesus while another writer of the gospel said he did not.
Poor hermeneutics.

Really? I thought a synecdoche was a figure of speech in which a part is made to represent the whole, as in England lost by six wickets (meaning ‘the English cricket team’). Are you saying that Matthew and Mark used the plural, when in fact, according to you, only one robber mocked Jesus?
Synecdoche is the part representing the whole or the reverse.
This figure of speech can be used both ways.

But those examples don't mean that every time we come across a plurality in Scripture, it must be a synecdoche. For instance
I agree, I never said every time pluralilty is used in scripture it MUST be Synecdoche.
Context determines what language is being used.

We surely don't assume that only one of them approached Jesus with the request
I never use assumptions when interpreting scripture.

Unless there is clear evidence that Mark and Matthew were using a figure of speech, then both of them mocked Jesus.
Its possible both did.
But to claim that they did is an awful hard claim to prove with Scripture.
I believe it's an assumption.
Just like claiming the thief on the cross wasnt baptized.

Thanks for replying
Good discussing Bible with you.
 

David Lamb

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Luke doesn't say he was only one.
Luke 23:39-43,
- and  one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on Jesus saying, if thou be the Christ save thyself and us

But the other(the thief who repented) answering rebuked him saying, Dost thou not fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation

Yes I know there were two robbers crucified with Jesus. I didn't think I had said there was only one. Sorry if I gave you that impression.
Now listen to what our subject matter says about Jesus,
Verse 41,
- and indeed justly for we receive the due reward of our works but this man(Jesus) hath done nothing amiss
and he said unto Jesus, Lord remember me when thou comest into thy Kingdom


So no I will not speculate as you have and be dogmatic one way or the other,
I wasn't speculating, just reading what the bible says.
Your other examples do not equate with different accounts of what was said of the thief on the cross.
Nothing said has nothing to compare to another writer.
Your reasoning is flawed. Luke didn't say the thief mocked Jesus.
By your reasoning of the scriptures Luke or Matthew has to be wrong. You are causing conflict among the gospel accounts by claiming the thief did mock Jesus while another writer of the gospel said he did not.
Poor hermeneutics.
Sorry, I was answering what you wrote: "Not every gospel says he mocked Jesus. Matthew and Mark but not Luke. I'm not sure he did." That is why I mentioned the wise men, Herod, and the flight to Egypt, because they are mentioned only by Matthew, not by Mark, Luke or John. I certainly wasn't trying to cause conflict among the gospel accounts.
Synecdoche is the part representing the whole or the reverse.
This figure of speech can be used both ways.


I agree, I never said every time pluralilty is used in scripture it MUST be Synecdoche.
Context determines what language is being used.


I never use assumptions when interpreting scripture.


Its possible both did.
But to claim that they did is an awful hard claim to prove with Scripture.
I believe it's an assumption.
Just like claiming the thief on the cross wasnt baptized.


Good discussing Bible with you.
Good discussing with you, too. Thank you!
 
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Hiddenthings

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How does Jesus dying, and being crucified on the cross, equate to forgiving everyone's sins? How does Jesus dying equate to that forgiveness of sin for mankind? How does his blood then equate to the forgiveness of sin?
Traditional Christian teaching cannot answer these questions.
 

Hiddenthings

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@FinnleyGraves

Do you understand the difference between substitutionary atonement and representative atonement?

The first is error while the second is deeply rooted in Scripture-based reasoning, with an emphasis on God’s righteousness, human nature, and moral transformation.

There are numerous issues with the substitutionary atonement model, and upon closer examination, its core principles do not hold up under the scrutiny of Scripture.
 
D

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That's right, we aren't told he was baptized. We also aren't told he was not yet you speculate he wasnt.

Did the thief hang on the cross His entire life?
We don't know anything about his life before the cross.
All we know is he was a thief and the Romans chose to punish him for it with crucifixion.

Do we know how long he lived as a thief? No.
Do we know why he stole? No.
Do we know his reasoning for stealing? No.
Do we know if he he only stole once or multiple times? No.


Yes he sinned as we all do. His heart wasn't right as all of us do sin against God.
But just like folks who have fallen but repent because they love God, he did the same.

I stop condemning people of their sin when they repent of it.
Too many continue to condemn others of their sins even after they repent.
Repentance is a CHANGE of heart.


Not every gospel says he mocked Jesus.
Matthew and Mark but not Luke.
I'm not sure he did.
The Bible uses figures of speech just as we do in all languages today.

The books that do say they mocked Jesus could be using a figure of speech known as Synecdoche.
Its possible Matthew and Mark used the plural in place of the singular in their accounts of the thieves reviling Christ.

Heres another example of a plural used for a singular.
Genesis 8:4 indicates Noah's ark rested on the mountains of Ararat.
Did Noah's ark rest on one of the mountains of Ararat or did it rest on all of them?
Noah's ark was huge but obviously was not large enough to rest on all the mountains of Ararat.
It rested on one.

Genesis 21:7 Sarah asked, Who would have said to Abraham that Sarah would nurse  children
Sarah nursed a son.

We cannot be dogmatic and say both or only one thief mocked Jesus.



Good, let us both put it into practice.
truly i tell you today, that man though he was put to death as a thief he will live again.
 

David Lamb

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truly i tell you today, that man though he was put to death as a thief he will live again.
That sounds a bit like scriptural language, but it isn't a quote from the bible, is it? Certainly it was true of the particular thief to whom Jesus said, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise." But it is not true of all thieves, or all who have been put to death as thieves. I am not sure what point you are making. Sorry.
 

Titus

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@FinnleyGraves

Do you understand the difference between substitutionary atonement and representative atonement?

The first is error while the second is deeply rooted in Scripture-based reasoning, with an emphasis on God’s righteousness, human nature, and moral transformation.

There are numerous issues with the substitutionary atonement model, and upon closer examination, its core principles do not hold up under the scrutiny of Scripture.
Would you be interested in teaching more in-depth on this subject?
Doesn't have to be too deep. Just a little more information explaining the differences between the two?
Thanks
 

Hiddenthings

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Would you be interested in teaching more in-depth on this subject?
Doesn't have to be too deep. Just a little more information explaining the differences between the two?
Thanks
Sure Titus.

“While we were still powerless, at just the right time, Christ died for the ungodly. It’s rare that someone would die for a righteous person—though for a truly good person, someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Now that we’ve been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through Him! For if, while we were still enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, how much more—having been reconciled—shall we be saved through His life! Not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” Romans 5:6-11

Substitutionary atonement (SA)
is the belief that Jesus died in place of sinners, taking the penalty they deserved so they could be reconciled to God.

Representative atonement (PA) is the view that Jesus, as the perfect representative of humanity, obeyed God on our behalf and offered himself in on our behalf, securing reconciliation through both his life and death.

Importantly, the biblical idea of propitiation should not be misunderstood as a "commercial transaction" or mere substitution. Rather, it reflects God’s gracious initiative to reconcile sinners through Christ, fulfilling his righteous purpose.

So, Titus, in exploring this subject, it's essential to consider what was accomplished in and through the life, death, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

One important point to note: the doctrine of substitutionary atonement is often adopted because many theologians struggle with the idea of Christ suffering in the flesh and then being glorified by God. To reconcile this, they assert that Christ must have been deity in the flesh.

But if you're serious about examining what God accomplished through Christ, you'll inevitably be led to challenge this traditional view. The reality is, very few Christians are willing to truly consider what Scripture reveals about God's work through Christ, and that is where the deeper truth lies.

In a nutshell the difference is this:

Substitutionary Atonement (SA) view teaches that Jesus did not need saving.

By contrast, the Representative atonement (RA) view is entirely founded on the understanding that Jesus needed to be redeemed from death and saved, and that through his salvation, others may also be saved.

The NT only supports Representative atonement (also known as Participatory Atonement)

For an example of Representative atonement:

Hebrews 5:7
"In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence."

This understanding is consistent throughout the New Testament and even reflected in Christ’s own words, such as in Luke 12:50, which speaks of his “agony” and daily struggle in overcoming sin's flesh.

Essentially, the traditional doctrine of the Trinity has obscured this true view of Christ and the collaborative work God and Jesus accomplished for believers.

Substitutionary Atonement does not reveal the actual Victory God achieved through Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

The study of "through" will lead you to the true knowledge of the atonement and take to you to the Original Gospel as taught by the Apostles.

Hope that helped.
 
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D

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That sounds a bit like scriptural language, but it isn't a quote from the bible, is it? Certainly it was true of the particular thief to whom Jesus said, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise." But it is not true of all thieves, or all who have been put to death as thieves. I am not sure what point you are making. Sorry.
with death a person pays for there sin. to then say this or that person will or will not receive a resurrection is Presumptuous . just because the thief then makes it does not mean he will stay there ,every one will have to prove their worthiness to remain.
 

David Lamb

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with death a person pays for there sin. to then say this or that person will or will not receive a resurrection is Presumptuous . just because the thief then makes it does not mean he will stay there ,every one will have to prove their worthiness to remain.
They are punished for their sin, unless they believe in the Saviour. However we don't pay for our sins by dying.
 
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Behold

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How does Jesus dying, and being crucified on the cross, equate to forgiving everyone's sins? How does Jesus dying equate to that forgiveness of sin for mankind? How does his blood then equate to the forgiveness of sin?

Your question is complex, and the answer is simple, but the understanding is by revelation.

The simple answer is...... Adam, the first........ sinned.....and this caused the faLL OF US ALL.
The reason you enjoy sinning, is because Adam's original sin, cause a changed in the nature of all mankind, both spiritally and naturally.

Jesus who is the 2nd Adam....... became a man... and lived a sinless life.....and this sinless Life, is offered to God, for the forgiveness of your sin and mine.
Consider that Jesus existed in Heaven, before He was vrigin born as a man......so, He is divinely different by being originally sent from heaven, to be virgin born, and so, He was not born "in sin".. as we are, because we come from sinners, and Jesus came from God.

Here is an analogy,
Lets say you are a murderer, convicted, and you are on your way to the Gas Chamber........and on the way....someone steps in front of you, and says.....>>i'll die for Him.....so that He can go Free".
So, they kill Him, in your place, which satifies the LAW that was broken, and now you are a free man, based on the merits of the one who died for you.

So, that is Jesus, dying for all your sin, so that you can go free......forgiven.....forever.

Welcome to : Salvation.

Its a GIFT from God, to a sinner so that they can be forgiven and restored to God's Eternal Family.

A.) JESUS is Salvation.

JESUS laid down His sinless life and body and blood on THE CROSS... as the means whereby God can and will.....through Jesus's sinless Sacrifice, deal wtih all your sin, one time and forever., so that you can then become a part of God's Eternal Family....a CHRISTian.

This is to become "saved".... and "all who call on the Name of Jesuis" "by faith"....."believeing" "Shall be saved".
 
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The are punished for their sin, unless the believe in the Saviour. However we don't pay for our sins by dying.
punished ?? normally when someone is punished its to correct their actions. what you've described is to be torched on and on for doing something wrong. please consider Romans 6:23. (please copy an paste from your favored bible )
 

PS95

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with death a person pays for there sin. to then say this or that person will or will not receive a resurrection is Presumptuous . just because the thief then makes it does not mean he will stay there ,every one will have to prove their worthiness to remain.
I'm not sure I get your meaning. The wages of sin is death, yes. But death does not forgive sins.
The thief was told he would be in paradise because of his faith in Jesus in whom is forgiveness of sins.
 
D

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That sounds a bit like scriptural language, but it isn't a quote from the bible, is it? Certainly it was true of the particular thief to whom Jesus said, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise." But it is not true of all thieves, or all who have been put to death as thieves. I am not sure what point you are making. Sorry.
i wonder if you realize that thief person did not enter paradise that very day. he like the vast majority of mankind lay dead in the grave .
 
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I'm not sure I get your meaning. The wages of sin is death, yes. But death does not forgive sins.
The thief was told he would be in paradise because of his faith in Jesus in whom is forgiveness of sins.
one things for certain the dead dont continue to sin
 

PS95

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one things for certain the dead dont continue to sin
Sure. BUT that's not my question and is skirting the issue.
You said--
With death a person pays for there sin. to then say this or that person will or will not receive a resurrection is Presumptuous . just because the thief then makes it does not mean he will stay there ,every one will have to prove their worthiness to remain.
The wages (what you earned) of sin is death. IOW you get what is OWED to you. The thief will not be resurrected because HE DIED.

AS to your comment about "him staying there & proving worthiness to remain" -- care to expound? as this is nowhere in scripture.
 

PS95

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Would you be interested in teaching more in-depth on this subject?
Doesn't have to be too deep. Just a little more information explaining the differences between the two?
Thanks
Hiddenthings is a Christadelphian. you may want to learn about them before discussing anything more.
 
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The wages (what you earned) of sin is death. IOW you get what is OWED to you. The thief will not be resurrected because HE DIED.
i found were i did say ''truly i tell you today, that man though he was put to death as a thief he will live again.''