Is it possible to lose salvation?

[GodsGrace]

I'm not trying to make the Bible state whatever I want it to state. I offered examples of "should's" to Christians in the NT only because you claimed there were none.

Kokyu,
The SHOULD in the verse does not mean SHOULD, as we understand it today, but as it was used in Old English......
meaning TO DO IT.
Seems like you know English pretty well.....so I'm rather surprised that you don't know this.

There is no SHOULD as to our behavior in the NT. (as we use the word today).
EVERYTHING Paul and Jesus teach are not should's but are to be accomplished.


1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]homosexuals, nor [b]sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were [c]sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

We were washed.
§We are to remain washed.
If we return to a life of sin and disobedience, we will become as before and not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Nothing unclean will enter into heaven:
Revelation 21:27
27 and nothing unclean, and no * one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever * come into it, but only * those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.



Do you REALLY think that anything that Jesus teaches or that Paul teaches is a SHOULD?
NO.

What they teach is what is required from us to be labeled a Christian.

And in case you really have a doubt,,,
check again what Jesus stated in
John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.


Do you believe Paul and Jesus are teaching entirely different concepts in their statements?
Apparently you do.


Romans 7:4
New International Version
So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

New Living Translation
So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God.

English Standard Version
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

Berean Standard Bible
Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

Berean Literal Bible
Likewise, my brothers, you also have been put to death to the Law through the body of Christ, for you to belong to another, to the One having been raised out from the dead, so that we should bear fruit to God.

King James Bible
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

New King James Version
Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

New American Standard Bible
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, you also were put to death in regard to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

NASB 1995
Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

NASB 1977
Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God.

Legacy Standard Bible
So, my brothers, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

Amplified Bible
Therefore, my fellow believers, you too died to the Law through the [crucified] body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, you also were put to death in relation to the law through the body of Christ so that you may belong to another. You belong to him who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, my brothers, you also were put to death in relation to the law through the crucified body of the Messiah, so that you may belong to another—to Him who was raised from the dead—that we may bear fruit for God.

American Standard Version
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God.

Contemporary English Version
That is how it is with you, my friends. You are now part of the body of Christ and are dead to the power of the Law. You are free to belong to Christ, who was raised to life so we could serve God.

English Revised Version
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
In the same way, brothers and sisters, you have died to the laws in Moses' Teachings through Christ's body. You belong to someone else, the one who was brought back to life. As a result, we can do what God wants.

Good News Translation
That is how it is with you, my friends. As far as the Law is concerned, you also have died because you are part of the body of Christ; and now you belong to him who was raised from death in order that we might be useful in the service of God.

International Standard Version
In the same way, my brothers, through the Messiah's body you also died as far as the Law is concerned, so that you may belong to another person, the one who was raised from the dead, and may bear fruit for God.




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[GodsGrace]

"Should" isn't the same as saying "will." I don't recall Paul ever writing, "You will do thus-and-so," as though it was a foregone conclusion that his readers would do exactly as he said they should do. There are, though, many instances in his various letters to the Early Church, where Paul tells his readers what they ought to do and how they ought to think, correcting their bad behaviour and erroneous spiritual understanding.

Apparently you are reading a version of the bible that does not exist.

Paul corrected BAD BEHAVIOR as you've posted.

If he corrected bad behavior...what do you suppose was the reason??
See 1 Cor 6 above.
Those with incorrect behavior WILL NOT see the Kingdom of God.

As I've said many times now, the child of God ought to obey their heavenly Father and if they don't, they are guilty of rebellion toward Him and sin. But all throughout the NT, Paul is addressing this very sort of believer, both criticizing them and confirming their membership in God's family and kingdom. In this thread, I've already cited from the NT many examples, so I won't do so again.

So then why not teach, on these forums, that we are to obey God instead of fighting me on this???
If you believe those that do not obey are rebellious, then why not just make this clear?

THIS very sort of believer, which you state exists, will NOT be confirmed into the membership of §God's family.

You start out OK,,,but end up in doctrines of demons.

Those Paul is criticizing...
IF they do not CHANGE,,,,they will not see the Kingdom of God.

No, as I've already explained to you in this thread, Paul was speaking to a particular sort of person in Romans 2: The hypocritical, law-keeping Jew, operating under the Old Covenant. His words to these Jews addressed them according to the Old Covenant standard under which they were living.

Romans 2:3-5
3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

Romans 2:12
12 ...as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

Romans 2:17-20
17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God,
18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law,
19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law.

Romans 2:23-24
23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?
24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written.

As one reads through the chapter, it is evident that Paul is not addressing Christians, giving to them instruction as to how they ought to live as people under the New Covenant. Your prooftext from the beginning of the chapter, then, is wrongly applied to those within the New Covenant.

Paul was speaking about keeping THE LAW.
How many times must this be stated to another Christian?
Do we not know our own religion?
The Jews know theirs,
The muslims know theirs,
Christians seem to be a bit lost.

I'm not speaking about following THE LAW.
The Law was abolished 2 thousand years ago.

AGAIN:
We are to follow the Law of Christ.
The teachings of Jesus.

IF

We want to see the Kingdom of God.

??? You were the one who brought up this matter, making a false claim about the word in the NT, not me. Do you want to discuss it further?

I did.
And if we have to discuss WORDS,,,,when the NT is CONCEPT for what Jesus taught....
we have fallen into decay.

As I've already pointed out a couple of times in this thread now, the Sermon on the Mount was not addressed to born-again believers about how to live as such. It was a sermon to Jews still under the Old Covenant, addressing them within this context. And so, there is not one word by Jesus about his sacrificial atonement, about the indwelling Holy Spirit, about redemption, justification or sanctification in himself, or about the New Covenant within in which all may come "boldly unto the throne of grace." Instead, Jesus sets forth an impossible standard of conduct that his audience could not achieve on their own. Repeatedly, Jesus says, "You have heard..., but I say unto you...." each time "raising the bar," so to speak, on what God demanded of those who would be members in His eternal, heavenly kingdom. Finally, Jesus says, "Be you therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48). All of this was to pave the way for the "new and living way" Christ would establish through his sacrificial saving work on the cross, a way that had nothing to do with a person's good works but with himself and his own divine perfection (He. 7-10:22; 2 Co. 5:21; Col. 1:19-22).

If Jesus raised the bar - which He did - perhaps we should post as such?
Instead of looking for ONE WORD that doesn't even mean what it means to us today?

And, again, God demands obedience
BEFORE, DURING AND AFTER the cross.

God demanded obedience in the OT and the NT.
In the OC and the NC.

No change in behaviorial requirement...
only in method.

So, no, Jesus wasn't wrong in his statements in his Sermon on the Mount. You are wrong in applying them to post-Calvary, spiritually-regenerate Christians who are no longer under the law of Moses.

Again...THE LAW was abolished 2 thousand years ago.

You argue against a strawmen because it's not possible to argue against Jesus and what HE taught.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I find what many people don't understand about salvation from God isthat it is his gift.

We don't do anything to earn it. We don't work to achieve it.

When Sovereign all knowing God tells us, “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand… no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” (John 10:28-29), then I think we should realize when we did nothing to acquire the free irrevocable gift,we can do nothing to lose it.

Jesus frees us.

Unfortunately,there are those who insist on being enslaved to their own sense of self worth.

They think so highly of themselves as to insist they can labor,obey,to insure God will keep them saved.

How many of them actually are?

God only knows.


God never says,work to keep my free irrevocable gift once you have it. Because I bestowed Eternal Security upon you in my salvation by my grace. Not due to anything you did to acquire it.

But now,you have to struggle to keep my free gift or you'll lose it. Because, I was only joking about my salvific gift being irrevocable.

No,God never said anything like that.

Yet,there are plenty of people who think he does say that.

Pride

Pride says I can say a prayer and live however I want, and still be saved (licentiousness)

Pride says I can say a prayer, and the live the rest of my life trying to keep myself saved, if I am good enough and do enough works.

Pride pumps ones chest. and says thank God I am not like the sinner (the OSAS believer)

Jesus said unless we become poor in spirit (literally bankrupt spiritually) we will nto see the kingdom of heaven.

These people may think they see it. but they have not even begun to see the power of God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The same Sovereign all knowing God also tells us:

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Are you claiming some things in God's Word are lies and that Jesus lacked the power and ability to control what went in to His canon?

If not, then 2 Peter 2:20 is just as true as John 10:28-29 since it was the Lord Jesus Who told the Holy Spirit to have Peter write what was said in 2 Peter 2:20

John 10:28-29 speaks to third party entities not being able to force us out of His Hand but does NOT speak to ourselves not having the free will to turn and walk away from the Lord.

If you claim it does then you'll need to prove from scripture that the Lord FORCES people to serve Him which cannot be done without help from satan to twist scripture and attempt to deceive people in to becoming gnostics and start following doctrines of demons.

Yes

if one comes to meet grace, Comes into a church, where Gods people are being blessed by him, and by association with Gods people. experience some of that blessing., and recieve the knowledge of truth

if they walk away from this and back out into the world

It is worse than in the begining

imagine going through eternity, knowing you had the thing that could have saved you in your grasp, and you let it go without taking hold and receiving it.

it will be much worse for you than it will for the athiest who never had experienced any of this. and never even contemplated receiving it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What a strawman argument!
Who EVER said anything about being perfect??

Its not a strawman

You comment suggested that we think we can sin and still be saved

so unless you are sinless. Then you in effect also think you can sin and still get to heaven

I'm not reply to this anymore.

And you've lost the ability to be good enough to please Jesus by teaching that it's not important to obey Him.

lol.

Maam. I obey Jesus the best I can by looking to him in love, taking the love he gave me 50 years ago when he saved me, and seeking after the things of the spirit

in essence. crucifying my flesh and my wants and desires in order to serve others.

I not only know what it means to obey, but why and by what power we obey

You have not learned this. Your still trying to obey to serve self. Not God or others.

so don't come at me like some pharisee pumping your chest. Because you will fail

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Still no scripture.
Typical.

you going to show the the works in all the many verses of scripture I gave you?

don't be a hypocrite!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Panda, please stop blaming others for your lack of understanding of Scripture, Christ said a lot more than just a few verses and like a puzzle, you cant see the whole picture if you are missing pieces. you are misquoting scripture in a limited way and also accusing other that try to help you understand

Following Jesus is far more than a simply believing in him, it starts there but you must be transformed by his words and listen to him, to ALL he said.

I have written a little post on this please have a look I simply ask you to keep an open mind and consider what the words of Jesus as a whole truly say. simply believing and doing nothing about it is not the way.

here is the link;

The Way to Salvation

The Way to Salvation Salvation is not a single moment of belief but a journey that begins with God's call and continues with faith, obedience, and endurance until the end. Jesus and His disciples taught that true followers of God would remain faithful throughout their lives. This journey unfolds...

www.christianityboard.com

lol

Again, for someone who claims they love Yeshua. why do you hate him so much?

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course Jesus's sacrificial death was only "valid" after he had made it. How could the effect of an event be in force prior to it happening? To think such a thing is possible would be very irrational. What were the various OT sacrifices under the Old Covenant for if the Jews had been always under the effect of Jesus's Atonement?

What?

So God is not timeless?

Please study up on this.
I'm not even going to debate it.
It's kind of like debating whether or not water is wet.

Saying so doesn't make it so. This is just unfounded assertion, here, nothing more.



Words spoken by Jesus to a Jewish audience still under the Old Covenant, according to the demands of that Covenant, are not applicable to New Covenant Christians. This should be obvious...

So then, dear K....
since Jesus was addressing Himself to those under the OC....
I say we throw out the NT and give up on Christianity.

Clearly, you aren't trying to understand what I'm writing but are just knee-jerk reacting to my remarks in defence of your view. And so, you regularly throw out these peculiar questions and frequently misrepresent what I've written. Why address me at all if you have no interest in actually comprehending my position? You certainly aren't going to persuade me (or anyone else) from my view when you have such a poor understanding of what it actually is. And you're never actually dealing directly with my view, only your imagined and assumed distortion of my view.

No.
I understand very well what you're saying
AND IT'S NOT CORRECT.

Saying Jesus didn't die for everyone that ever lived is showing how flawed your theology is.
§To say that Jesus died only for those that came after is incredibly mistaken.

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


1 John 2:2
2He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9
9But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.


1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

What did Jesus say in Matthew 5:48? Why did he say such a thing? He never indicated in his Sermon on the Mount that he thought his audience could meet the standard he set forth to them. And the system of sacrifice God had established under the Old Covenant also communicated what God thought His creatures were capable (or, rather, incapable) of.

I don't know what Jesus said in Matthew 5:48...
you didn't POST it.
(old habits die hard).

Yes, right.



I've already given many verses/passages in this thread supporting my view. Go back through the thread and read them.

Yes, every verse in Scripture is for the born-again person. But not every verse is to them. Do you not understand the difference, here?

Not reply to this.
This isn't theology 101 K.

No, all that is on display here is how determined you are not to actually understand what I'm writing. I assume this wilful obtuseness is reflecting your insecurity about your views, pushing you to make ugly insinuations like the one above. These unpleasant verbal jabs don't really help your case, though; they're just fallacious ad hominem.

Please post ONE SENTENCE of mine that has been ad hominem.

Thanks.


BTW,,,you have repeatedly stated how I don't understand anything.
Quite hypocritical actually.
But I'm not here to argue about personal matters.

It's amazing to me that, knowing nothing of the actual character of my life, you would suggest I don't love Jesus. Wow. I didn't think you'd stoop to this sort of stuff.




No, there are plenty of references to Scripture I've given that you could easily look up. You just can't be bothered to.



I explained what my purpose was in considering Ephesians 2:8-10. Please re-read my last post.

Yes, I'm aware of what verse 10 says. As many have pointed out, the verse does not speak of the means of one's salvation but the effect of it.



Not necessary to salvation, no. But natural to Christian living, yes. And, yes, Paul does VERY plainly rule out good works as salvific:

Ephesians 2:9
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Of course everyone in your camp (teaching that good works are not necessary)
always forget the line right after verse 9

Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

??? Why would I do this? What seems to be the case in your mind is not, in fact, the case. But you would know this if you ceased to Strawman my views and made an effort to actually understand my position.

No further comments.

 

[GodsGrace]

you going to show the the works in all the many verses of scripture I gave you?

don't be a hypocrite!

I've replied to your many verses.

They are INVALID because you refuse to understand what the word BELIEVE means.

It means TO OBEY.

Until you understand that, all your doctrine is off and not in line with what Jesus taught.l

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course Jesus's sacrificial death was only "valid" after he had made it. How could the effect of an event be in force prior to it happening? To think such a thing is possible would be very irrational. What were the various OT sacrifices under the Old Covenant for if the Jews had been always under the effect of Jesus's Atonement?



Saying so doesn't make it so. This is just unfounded assertion, here, nothing more.



Words spoken by Jesus to a Jewish audience still under the Old Covenant, according to the demands of that Covenant, are not applicable to New Covenant Christians. This should be obvious...



Clearly, you aren't trying to understand what I'm writing but are just knee-jerk reacting to my remarks in defence of your view. And so, you regularly throw out these peculiar questions and frequently misrepresent what I've written. Why address me at all if you have no interest in actually comprehending my position? You certainly aren't going to persuade me (or anyone else) from my view when you have such a poor understanding of what it actually is. And you're never actually dealing directly with my view, only your imagined and assumed distortion of my view.

What did Jesus say in Matthew 5:48? Why did he say such a thing? He never indicated in his Sermon on the Mount that he thought his audience could meet the standard he set forth to them. And the system of sacrifice God had established under the Old Covenant also communicated what God thought His creatures were capable (or, rather, incapable) of.



Yes, right.



I've already given many verses/passages in this thread supporting my view. Go back through the thread and read them.

Yes, every verse in Scripture is for the born-again person. But not every verse is to them. Do you not understand the difference, here?



No, all that is on display here is how determined you are not to actually understand what I'm writing. I assume this wilful obtuseness is reflecting your insecurity about your views, pushing you to make ugly insinuations like the one above. These unpleasant verbal jabs don't really help your case, though; they're just fallacious ad hominem.

It's amazing to me that, knowing nothing of the actual character of my life, you would suggest I don't love Jesus. Wow. I didn't think you'd stoop to this sort of stuff.




No, there are plenty of references to Scripture I've given that you could easily look up. You just can't be bothered to.



I explained what my purpose was in considering Ephesians 2:8-10. Please re-read my last post.

Yes, I'm aware of what verse 10 says. As many have pointed out, the verse does not speak of the means of one's salvation but the effect of it.



Not necessary to salvation, no. But natural to Christian living, yes. And, yes, Paul does VERY plainly rule out good works as salvific:

Ephesians 2:9
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.



??? Why would I do this? What seems to be the case in your mind is not, in fact, the case. But you would know this if you ceased to Strawman my views and made an effort to actually understand my position.

I wanted to add:

Those that teach that good works are not necessary,
and that obedience to §God is not necessary...
and PLAINLY state so....

do not love Jesus as HE said the following:

John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.


You see K...I'M not saying this....
JESUS is saying it.

What commandments do you think Jesus was referring to?
HE said that if we DO NOT keep His commandments, we do not love Him.

So if you teach that we don't really need to obey God....
because, gee, that would mean we'd have to be perfect (strawman used by many on these forums)

and

If you teach that good works are not NECESSARY because it's a "work" and we'd be "working for our salvation"

then, yes, you and those that speak like this fall under John 14:15.

You love Jesus?
Teach what HE taught.

Obedience to God.
Good works for the Kingdom.

 

[GodsGrace]

He wasn't speaking to a Christian audience about Christian living. See above.



No, there's no conflict except what your mishandling of God's word has produced in your mind.

Works of righteousness have NOTHING to do with our salvation. NOTHING. This God's word repeatedly and explicitly states:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Titus 3:5
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Where does 1 John 3:7 deny these verses? In what part of the verse is "not of works" contradicted? The verse makes no comment at all on whether or not works are salvific. What's interesting, though, is that you are trying here to make a single verse that is non-explicit about salvation by good works greater in weight than three highly explicit verses that deny salvation by good works. Your doing so demonstrates very poor handling of God's word.

What you do here is akin to little Willy who, hearing his mother say, "Don't eat any of the cookies in the cookie jar without my permission," goes to his Dad and asks him, "Is it all right to have some cookies from the cookie jar?" His Dad shrugs and says, "You shouldn't eat too many cookies." Willy dashes to the jar and is extracting a handful of cookies when his mother appears and in a sharp tone says, "Willy! What do you think you're doing?" Freezing in place, Willy eyes his mother fearfully and replies, "Dad said I could have some cookies."

Is Willy being honest about the statement his father has made? Concerning Willy's freedom to eat the cookies in the cookie jar, is the vague, general remark of Willy's father about eating cookies equal in force to the explicit command of Willy's mother about the cookies in the jar? Of course not. His father's general, non-specific statement doesn't stand on par with the specific and explicit one given by his mother. We know this just as well as Willy does.

Why, then, concerning the question of salvation by works, are you giving a single, non-explicit, generalized statement about righteousness as much, or more, weight than three very specific, explicit statements denying salvation by works? John says nothing about salvation in 1 John 3:7. He merely observed in the verse that the person who practices righteousness is righteous as God is righteous. About salvation, John makes no observation whatever in the verse. But in the three verses I've posted a number of times now in this thread, salvation by work is ruled out flatly and clearly. For the reason illustrated above, no text on biblical hermeneutics would ever teach that a general and non-explicit verse trumps a specific and explicit one. Instead, all the texts on hermeneutics I've read clearly teach the reverse.

So, no, 1 John 3:7 presents no difficulty to me in holding to an OSAS view.



This is equivocation of the most obvious sort. The assertion that good works keep one's salvation intact is implying necessarily that good works are salvific. This is not a Strawman but the unavoidable implication of making works essential to the maintenance of one's salvation.

Bob starts a bonfire at 10 a.m.. Sam continually feeds the fire with wood so that it's still burning at 10 p.m.. Who's responsible for the fire? Obviously, both Bob and Sam are responsible for the fire - though Sam much more so than Bob. In the same way, if we say Jesus starts the "bonfire" of our salvation but we keep it burning, we are at least as responsible for our salvation as Jesus is (more so, I think). But this makes us co-Saviours with Jesus; it makes the "wood" of our good works as much the source of the "bonfire" of our salvation as what Jesus did to "start the bonfire."

Such thinking is horribly blasphemous, of course, and in direct contradiction to the plain and repeated statement of God's word. There is only one Savior, as the Bible says, and salvation is NOT by good works which we have done, as the Bible also says.



See above.

A false idea oft-repeated doesn't make the false idea somehow true.



This is false. Paul nowhere in the NT states that salvation is maintained by our works, but says explicitly the exact opposite three times. See above.

And you have yet to produce a statement by Jesus given to Christians within a post-Calvary, New Covenant context declaring that their good works keep them saved.



No one has said otherwise. I certainly haven't.



No, this is in error. In context, James wrote that a "dead" faith was a faith that was alone (Ja. 2:17), incomplete (Ja. 2:22) and useless, practically-speaking (Ja. 2:16). Nowhere in chapter 2 does James write that "a dead faith is no faith." Again, this is just another of your many contortions of what Scripture actually says, made in service to your false doctrine of works-salvation.

I think there's enough in the other 2 posts.

As to James.
Yes, those such as yourself do twist the words of scripture to suit their own needs.
What those needs are, I do not know.

But here, again, is what James said:

James 2:26
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.


Faith without works is dead.

No further comment needed.

I think the NT writers knew what they wished to communicate.

 

[GodsGrace]

lol

Again, for someone who claims they love Yeshua. why do you hate him so much?

John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.


@LoveYeshua loves Jesus.
Know why EG?

Because HE teaches what Yeshua taught.
NOT what you and those that post as you do THINK He taught.


Jesus said IF you keep my commandments, you love me.

What commandments would those be EG?
According to you and others THERE ARE NO COMMANDMENTS!

Because we'd have to be PERFECT to keep them. Strawman
Because all we have to do is "believe". Strawman

AND
You don't even know what BELIEVE means...
IF you did...you'd change your belief system immediately.

And stop posting that dumb post of your with all the veses with the word BELIEVE
as if you were proving something....
Which it does NOT.

Because BELIEVE means TO OBEY.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I've replied to your many verses.

No you did not

When you replay. You post the verse. And then you answer my question. What works are involved in that verse.

You have not done this once

They are INVALID because you refuse to understand what the word BELIEVE means.

No. they are valid.

again show me the works required.

And I told you. Faith means to have a confidence in, To have a trust in, To have an assurance in.

Those who trust God will do what he says

those who do not will not

Sadly. those who trust in self. will do things he says to do. but do them to benefit self (get saved) not out of faith in God

It means TO OBEY.

No.

Faith is the REASON we obey. it is not obeying itself.

it is the work of God we believe.

stop trying to take credit for yourself. and boasting in self.

Until you understand that, all your doctrine is off and not in line with what Jesus taught.l

lol. Your the one who does not understand. you see works where there is no works.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

If you (children of God) Love me, Then do this.

Not if you want me to save you, keep you saved, or keep you from losing salvation. Keep the law

The pharisees kept Gods commands, and claimed they loved him, yet they killed Gods son.

@LoveYeshua loves Jesus.
Know why EG?

Because HE teaches what Yeshua taught.
NOT what you and those that post as you do THINK He taught.


Jesus said IF you keep my commandments, you love me.

What commandments would those be EG?
According to you and others THERE ARE NO COMMANDMENTS!

Because we'd have to be PERFECT to keep them. Strawman
Because all we have to do is "believe". Strawman

AND
You don't even know what BELIEVE means...
IF you did...you'd change your belief system immediately.

And stop posting that dumb post of your with all the veses with the word BELIEVE
as if you were proving something....
Which it does NOT.

Because BELIEVE means TO OBEY.

No. he does not teach what Yeshua taught.

he teaches what the pharisees taught.

 

[GodsGrace]

No you did not

When you replay. You post the verse. And then you answer my question. What works are involved in that verse.

You have not done this once

No. they are valid.

again show me the works required.

And I told you. Faith means to have a confidence in, To have a trust in, To have an assurance in.

Those who trust God will do what he says

those who do not will not

Sadly. those who trust in self. will do things he says to do. but do them to benefit self (get saved) not out of faith in God

No.

Faith is the REASON we obey. it is not obeying itself.

it is the work of God we believe.

stop trying to take credit for yourself. and boasting in self.

lol. Your the one who does not understand. you see works where there is no works.

The word BELIEVE encompasses DOING what Jesus taught.

Here's what Jesus taught:

John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Let's take a close look at what Jesus is teaching:

1. Every branch IN HIM......
ONLY believers are IN CHRIST.

Thus,,,Jesus is addressing believers.


2. Every BELIEVER that does NOT bear fruit....
Jesus is saying that it's possible for A BELIEVER to NOT bear fruit.


3. The BELIEVERS that do NOT bear fruit God TAKES AWAY....cuts off....severs.


Let's see you twist that one away.
As you will surely attempt to.

It's most apparent that you do not like what Jesus teaches and prefer your own theology.

 

[GodsGrace]

Pride

Pride says I can say a prayer and live however I want, and still be saved (licentiousness)

Pride says I can say a prayer, and the live the rest of my life trying to keep myself saved, if I am good enough and do enough works.

Pride pumps ones chest. and says thank God I am not like the sinner (the OSAS believer)

Jesus said unless we become poor in spirit (literally bankrupt spiritually) we will nto see the kingdom of heaven.

You teach the bible?
poor in spirit does NOT mean spiritually bankrupt.
It means very much the opposite.
It means that a person is aware of their great need for God and how small they are compared to Him
and how much they wish God to be in their lives.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The word BELIEVE encompasses DOING what Jesus taught.

No

the word believe encompasses that you trust someone, You have assurance in them, and you trust that person.

It is this TRUST that causes you to do the actions.

the first being to repent and recieve his free gift of eternal life.

Here's what Jesus taught:

John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Again, the word takes away means to lift up.. It does not mean remove or cast out..

Let's take a close look at what Jesus is teaching:

1. Every branch IN HIM......
ONLY believers are IN CHRIST.

Thus,,,Jesus is addressing believers.


2. Every BELIEVER that does NOT bear fruit....
Jesus is saying that it's possible for A BELIEVER to NOT bear fruit.


3. The BELIEVERS that do NOT bear fruit God TAKES AWAY....cuts off....severs.


Let's see you twist that one away.
As you will surely attempt to.

It's most apparent that you do not like what Jesus teaches and prefer your own theology.

I did take a close look. I gave you MULTIPLE passages where jesus told us what must be done.

You have not shown me one work jesus commanded we must do.

Because there is non

when you will start trusting in jesus, and not your works?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You teach the bible?
poor in spirit does NOT mean spiritually bankrupt.

Actually yes it does

the word "poor" used in that passage is not "poor" as in I am poor. or lower class. It literally means I am literally bankrupt. I am hopeless. I have nothing to offer. I am hopeless.

It means very much the opposite.

lol. It means we are rich?

so the rich come to christ for salvation. not the poor and needy?

ok Got it

It means that a person is aware of their great need for God and how small they are compared to Him

It means they are literally bankrupt.

if you still think you can offer things, then you have not become poor in spirit

and how much they wish God to be in their lives.

or maybe they reliae their situation. and that they are dead and without hope. like the tax collector. and called out For Gods mercy?

You just proved you do not understand the gospel at all.

to you the gospel is God giving your things.. God is not a savior to you. you do no think you need saved. and you just proved it

 

[GodsGrace]

No

the word believe encompasses that you trust someone, You have assurance in them, and you trust that person.

And herein lies the problem.
Just as I've been saying ....
you do NOT understand the meaning of the word BELIEVE.

If you trust someone...
do you DO what they tell you?

In the same way,,,
IF you trust Jesus,
you will DO as He tells you.

All Jesus did for His entire ministry is teach good works.
YOU prefer not to see those teachings.....

posting on these forums, instead, that ...yes, OK, we obey, but we don't really have to,,,
all we have to do is believe.

Well, unfortunately for you and those that agree with you,,,
Jesus taught that we are TO DO.

Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


Matthew 7:24
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.


The foolish man who did NOT act on Jesus' words, was taken away by the floods.
Matthew 7:26
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

It is this TRUST that causes you to do the actions.

the first being to repent and recieve his free gift of eternal life.



Again, the word takes away means to lift up.. It does not mean remove or cast out..

Oh. §This is so cute.
Others have stated this.
We must truly love Strong's more than God's word.

Let's see what Strong's has to say about the word airo:


Original Word: αἴρω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: airó
Pronunciation: ah'-ee-ro
Phonetic Spelling: (ah'-ee-ro)
KJV: away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up)
NASB: take, taken away, picked, pick, takes away, away, take away
Word Origin: [a primary root]


Very nice of you to pick the one word that you like.

Too bad that when it comes to branches, it does NOT mean to lift up.

Need proof?: Jesus was very clear in what HE taught...not what you think Strong's teaches about obedience to God.

See
John 15:6
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


See....
Jesus is not teaching that a branch will be lifted up.

He's teaching that the branch will be THROWN AWAY,,,,,GATHERED,,,,,AND CAST INTO THE FIRE.


Doesn't sound like any branch being lifted up to me.

Try learning from Jesus instead of Strong's.

I did take a close look. I gave you MULTIPLE passages where jesus told us what must be done.

You have not shown me one work jesus commanded we must do.

Now you're asking me to give you a list of works which Jesus commanded us to do?
SERIOUSLY?


Here:

This is a good start...there's plenty more.

1. Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near (Matthew 4:17)
2. Come and follow Me (Matthew 4:19)
3. Rejoice when you’re persecuted in My name (Matthew 5:11–12)
4. Let your light shine before all people (Matthew 5:16)
5. Be reconciled to one another (Matthew 5:23–24)
6. Take sin very seriously (Matthew 5:29–30)
7. Keep your word (Matthew 5:37)
8. Turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39)
9. Go above and beyond (Matthew 5:40–42)
10. Love your enemies (Matthew 5:43–44)
11. Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48)
12. Focus on spiritual disciplines for the right reasons (Matthew 6:1–18)
13. Put your efforts in the right place (Matthew 6:19–21)
14. Seek God’s kingdom first of all (Matthew 6:33)
15. Do not worry about tomorrow (Matthew 6:34)
16. Use right judgment (Matthew 7:1–5)
17. Practice discretion (Matthew 7:6)
18. Ask, seek, and knock (Matthew 7:7–8)
19. Treat others as you would like to be treated (Matthew 7:12)
20. Choose the narrow path to life (Matthew 7:13–14)
21. Look out for false prophets (Matthew 7:15–20)
22. Pray for kingdom laborers (Matthew 9:37–38)
23. Be on your guard (Matthew 10:16–17)
24. Do not fear persecutors (Matthew 10:26–31)
25. Take My yoke upon you (Matthew 11:28–30)
26. Do not despise the little ones (Matthew 18:10)
27. How to deal with offenders (Matthew 18:15–17)
28. Practice forgiveness (Matthew 18:21–22)
29. Lead through service (Matthew 20:25–28)
30. Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul (Matthew 22:37–38)
31. Love your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:39)
32. Stay alert and keep watch (Matthew 24:42–44)
33. Make disciples of all the nations (Matthew 28:18–20)
34. Deny yourself (Luke 9:23–24)
35. Watch out for greed (Luke 12:15)
36. Give to those who can’t reciprocate (Luke 14:12–14)
37. You must be born again (John 3:7)
38. If you love Me, keep my commandments (John 14:15)
39. Learn more about Jesus

Because there is non

when you will start trusting in jesus, and not your works?

I trust what Jesus taught.
YOU do not.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And herein lies the problem.
Just as I've been saying ....
you do NOT understand the meaning of the word BELIEVE.

Good golly I just gave you the literal definition of the word.

eph 2: 8 for it is by grace we have been saved ( a completed action) through faith

faith - Ho Pistis - literally, the faith

noun, genetive, singular, feminine

to be a believer, to trust, to have faith, to be persuaded, based on proof. (not blind faith) confidence

john 3: 16, for God so loved the world. he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him, will never perish but live forever

believe - ho pisteuo - literally. the faith

verb (action) present, active, participle, nomitive, masculin

to believe, to have confidence in, to have faith in, to trust based on being persuaded.

your problem is you are listening to men, I would suggest you actually get some study tools out amd do some actual study so you do not continue to make yourself look unlearned. and spoonfed

If you trust someone...
do you DO what they tell you?

What did I say above?

if you are confident or have faith in someone, You do what they say

what the first things they are offering? Eternal life. forgiveness of sin, eternal salvation, having condemnation removed, and being adopted as his son.

what does he say to do. trust him (believe) and recieve him (john 1 with John 3, 4 5 and 6 and many other places (you know all the passages I sent you, you still have not responded to)

the second thing he then asks us to do. is learn to be like him, to follow the law of love and to seek after things of the spirit and to study to show ourself approved.

Which I have done, and continue to do to the best of my ability through his power.

You should try it one day. both of these

In the same way,,,
IF you trust Jesus,
you will DO as He tells you.

All Jesus did for His entire ministry is teach good works.
YOU prefer not to see those teachings.....

posting on these forums, instead, that ...yes, OK, we obey, but we don't really have to,,,
all we have to do is believe.

Well, unfortunately for you and those that agree with you,,,
Jesus taught that we are TO DO.

Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


Matthew 7:24
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.


The foolish man who did NOT act on Jesus' words, was taken away by the floods.
Matthew 7:26
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Oh. §This is so cute.
Others have stated this.
We must truly love Strong's more than God's word.

Let's see what Strong's has to say about the word airo:


Original Word: αἴρω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: airó
Pronunciation: ah'-ee-ro
Phonetic Spelling: (ah'-ee-ro)
KJV: away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up)
NASB: take, taken away, picked, pick, takes away, away, take away
Word Origin: [a primary root]


Very nice of you to pick the one word that you like.

Too bad that when it comes to branches, it does NOT mean to lift up.

Need proof?: Jesus was very clear in what HE taught...not what you think Strong's teaches about obedience to God.

See
John 15:6
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


See....
Jesus is not teaching that a branch will be lifted up.

He's teaching that the branch will be THROWN AWAY,,,,,GATHERED,,,,,AND CAST INTO THE FIRE.


Doesn't sound like any branch being lifted up to me.

Try learning from Jesus instead of Strong's.



Now you're asking me to give you a list of works which Jesus commanded us to do?
SERIOUSLY?


Here:

This is a good start...there's plenty more.

1. Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near (Matthew 4:17)
2. Come and follow Me (Matthew 4:19)
3. Rejoice when you’re persecuted in My name (Matthew 5:11–12)
4. Let your light shine before all people (Matthew 5:16)
5. Be reconciled to one another (Matthew 5:23–24)
6. Take sin very seriously (Matthew 5:29–30)
7. Keep your word (Matthew 5:37)
8. Turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39)
9. Go above and beyond (Matthew 5:40–42)
10. Love your enemies (Matthew 5:43–44)
11. Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48)
12. Focus on spiritual disciplines for the right reasons (Matthew 6:1–18)
13. Put your efforts in the right place (Matthew 6:19–21)
14. Seek God’s kingdom first of all (Matthew 6:33)
15. Do not worry about tomorrow (Matthew 6:34)
16. Use right judgment (Matthew 7:1–5)
17. Practice discretion (Matthew 7:6)
18. Ask, seek, and knock (Matthew 7:7–8)
19. Treat others as you would like to be treated (Matthew 7:12)
20. Choose the narrow path to life (Matthew 7:13–14)
21. Look out for false prophets (Matthew 7:15–20)
22. Pray for kingdom laborers (Matthew 9:37–38)
23. Be on your guard (Matthew 10:16–17)
24. Do not fear persecutors (Matthew 10:26–31)
25. Take My yoke upon you (Matthew 11:28–30)
26. Do not despise the little ones (Matthew 18:10)
27. How to deal with offenders (Matthew 18:15–17)
28. Practice forgiveness (Matthew 18:21–22)
29. Lead through service (Matthew 20:25–28)
30. Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul (Matthew 22:37–38)
31. Love your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:39)
32. Stay alert and keep watch (Matthew 24:42–44)
33. Make disciples of all the nations (Matthew 28:18–20)
34. Deny yourself (Luke 9:23–24)
35. Watch out for greed (Luke 12:15)
36. Give to those who can’t reciprocate (Luke 14:12–14)
37. You must be born again (John 3:7)
38. If you love Me, keep my commandments (John 14:15)
39. Learn more about Jesus

I trust what Jesus taught.
YOU do not.

these are meaningless verses as far as our conversatrion goes.

I am talkin gabout how one gets saved, not what one does after

lets get the adoption/saved part down first. then we can talk about what we do after.

Until then, we are just lost. (well the one who does not understand the gospel is)