Nebuchadnezzar's Statue vs. Heads of the Beast - How Would You Link Them?

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covenantee

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Goodbye, I have no interest in the above. My sense is that you already know the answers to the above request.

From memory, are you not an SDA card holder.
Why do you have no interest in the above? You've claimed that the Reformation "demonized" the RCC. What alternative reaction to the papal blasphemies above would you consider appropriate?

Did the RCC demonize the Reformation? Would being burned at the stake qualify as demonization?

I'm a Reformation card holder. The Reformation pre-dated SDA by more than two centuries.
 

Jay Ross

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Why do you have no interest in the above? You've claimed that the Reformation "demonized" the RCC. What alternative reaction to the papal blasphemies above would you consider appropriate?

Did the RCC demonize the Reformation? Would being burned at the stake qualify as demonization?

I'm a Reformation card holder. The Reformation pre-dated SDA by more than two centuries.

So, what you are saying is that both the reformation fathers and the RCC structure were as bad as each other. Both tried to destroy each other.

The Reformation fathers twisted the Daniel prophecies so that they could link the Pope with the Anit-Christ at a time around 1,500 years before the Anti-Christ was meant to become a reality.

Your theological understanding is flawed as to what Daniel's prophetic words foretold.

That is why I have no interest in having a continuing discussion with you.

Goodbye
 
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covenantee

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So, what you are saying is that both the reformation fathers and the RCC structure were as bad as each other. Both tried to destroy each other.

The Reformation fathers twisted the Daniel prophecies so that they link the Pope with the Anit-Christ at a time around 1,500 years before the Anti-Christ was meant to become a reality.

Your theological understanding is flawed as to what Daniel's prophetic words foretold.

That is why I have no interest in having a continuing discussion with you.

Goodbye
So you believe that the Reformation should have embraced the blasphemies of the apostate papacy.

So you believe the Jesuit futurized antichrist of the apostate papacy's counter-reformation.

My theological understanding recognizes the legitimacy and accuracy of the Reformation's theological understanding.

Yours doesn't.

Thank God for His Reformers and Reformation.
 

Jay Ross

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So you believe that the Reformation should have embraced the blasphemies of the apostate papacy.

So you believe the Jesuit futurized antichrist of the apostate papacy's counter-reformation.

My theological understanding recognizes the legitimacy and accuracy of the Reformation's theological understanding.

Yours doesn't.

Thank God for His Reformers and Reformation.

I am not interested in continuing this discussion, particularly when you create a strawman by making claims as to what I might think or believe which is pure fiction.

I have no real axe to grind with respect to the RCC members as many of them have a deep and personal relationship with God/Christ and as Christ said, we are to leave them alone.

Now if you cannot take a big hint about my lack of interest in continuing a conversation with you on this subject matter, then I pity you for your lack of comprehension skills.

Goodbye
 

covenantee

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I am not interested in continuing this discussion, particularly when you create a strawman by making claims as to what I might think or believe which is pure fiction.

I have no real axe to grind with respect to the RCC members as many of them have a deep and personal relationship with God/Christ and as Christ said, we are to leave them alone.

Now if you cannot take a big hint about my lack of interest in continuing a conversation with you on this subject matter, then I pity you for your lack of comprehension skills.

Goodbye
You've said you believe in a futurized antichrist, so that's no strawman, unless you've decided to renounce it. I simply informed you of its Jesuit origin.

What's with "RCC members"? They're your strawmen. To this point, this discussion has been about the historical apostate papacy and the Reformation. I've said nothing about "RCC members" because it has nothing to do with the laity. The blasphemies I've cited originated at the highest levels of the institutionalized structure of the apostate papacy i.e. the pope and high leadership. Apparently you can't understand the difference.

Don't respond unless you can demonstrate more understanding than you have in complaining about "demonization". :laughing:

Thank God for His Reformers and Reformation.
 
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Wish-it

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Even though I disagree with the graphic - nice job on posting a visual as part of explaining your view.

The statue image of Nebuchadnezzar's dream does not correspond to the kings of Revelation 17:10-11. The ten toes of the statue image do correspond to the ten end times kings of Revelation 17:12.

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The kings of Revelation 17:10-11 are represented by the 7 heads on the beast in Revelation 17, 12, 13.

The 7 kings are of the Roman Empire (historic), and Roman Empire manifest in the end times (the EU).

(the first five kings) the five fallen (at the time of John given Revelation)
Julius Caesar
Augustus Caesar
Tiberius
Caligula
Claudius

(the sixth king)) the one is
Nero

(the seventh king) the one yet to come
the end times little horn person of Daniel 7 and Daniel 8

(the eighth king) the beast-king of Revelation 17:11
the end times little horn person after being killed and come back to life
Consider Psalm 83, the 10 nations that surround Israel. Scripture confirms scripture, the way Jesus abd the apostles always referred to scripture. The 10 ten kings of Dan 2, Dan 7, Dan 8 and Rev 13, Rev 17 are the same. The three that are gone from Rev 13,17 are the three subdued in Dan 7.24. Mentioned again in Dan 11.41. They are also named in Psalm 83, Deut 2 explains why they were "delivered from his hand".
Scripture has the answers.
 

Douggg

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Consider Psalm 83, the 10 nations that surround Israel. Scripture confirms scripture, the way Jesus abd the apostles always referred to scripture. The 10 ten kings of Dan 2, Dan 7, Dan 8 and Rev 13, Rev 17 are the same. The three that are gone from Rev 13,17 are the three subdued in Dan 7.24. Mentioned again in Dan 11.41. They are also named in Psalm 83, Deut 2 explains why they were "delivered from his hand".
Scripture has the answers.
Psalms 83:4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.

That verse seems to be the motto of the muslim nations in the middle east as they are determined to destroy the nation of Israel.

Some end times commentators believe that there is going to be a Psalms 83 war involving Israel and surrounding muslim nations. And then a little later the Gog/Magog war of Ezekiel 38-39, also involving muslim nations attacking Israel.

But those are not the ten kings of Revelation 17. The ten kings of Revelation 17 are part of one overall kingdom - which they will give that overall kingdom to the beast in Revelation 17:17 .

Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

What the verse is indicating that the ten EU leaders will hand the EU over to the beast-king to be dictator of the EU.
 

Wish-it

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Psalms 83:4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.

That verse seems to be the motto of the muslim nations in the middle east as they are determined to destroy the nation of Israel.

Some end times commentators believe that there is going to be a Psalms 83 war involving Israel and surrounding muslim nations. And then a little later the Gog/Magog war of Ezekiel 38-39, also involving muslim nations attacking Israel.

But those are not the ten kings of Revelation 17. The ten kings of Revelation 17 are part of one overall kingdom - which they will give that overall kingdom to the beast in Revelation 17:17 .

Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

What the verse is indicating that the ten EU leaders will hand the EU over to the beast-king to be dictator of the EU.
I agree with your assessment of Islam towards Israel. To my mind, nothing to do with Rome, or EU or USA. The scripture shows us from the blessings of Ishmael and Esau who the final wars are about. The AC is shown in scripture to be the king of Assyria, and his origins can be traced from Dan 8 thru to Dan 11. The 10 kings in Dan 7.24 becomes seven. The three that are subdued are mentioned again in Dan 41, Edom, Moab and Ammonites. Then referred to in Rev 13 and 17 as Seven. The reasons are covered in Deut 2 and alluded to in Psalm 83 when Assyria joins the other nine, To reinforce Lots descendants.
Answer is always in scripture.
 

ewq1938

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Consider Psalm 83, the 10 nations that surround Israel. Scripture confirms scripture, the way Jesus abd the apostles always referred to scripture. The 10 ten kings of Dan 2, Dan 7, Dan 8 and Rev 13, Rev 17 are the same. The three that are gone from Rev 13,17 are the three subdued in Dan 7.24.

Three are never gone at all in Rev. That only happened in Daniel's vision.
 

Douggg

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The 10 kings in Dan 7.24 becomes seven. The three that are subdued are mentioned again in Dan 41, Edom, Moab and Ammonites. Then referred to in Rev 13 and 17 as Seven.
The 10 kings in Daniel 7:24 rule concurrently with each other... i.e. at the same time.

Differently, the 7 kings in Revelation 17 rule sequentially, not concurrently with each other.

So the 10 kings of Daniel 7:24 do not become the 7 kings of Revelation 17.

That the little horn person will remove 3 of the 10 kings in Daniel 7, just means that 3 don't go along with his agenda, and he removes them, and replaces them with a different set of 3 kings. The 10 kings of Daniel 7 are the same 10 kings in Revelation 17.
 

ewq1938

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That the little horn person will remove 3 of the 10 kings in Daniel 7, just means that 3 don't go along with his agenda, and he removes them, and replaces them with a different set of 3 kings.

What verse in Daniel shows the 3 removed kings are replaced? The event is mentioned three times in Daniel but not one time is there ever a replacement of the 3.
 

Douggg

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What verse in Daniel shows the 3 removed kings are replaced? The event is mentioned three times in Daniel but not one time is there ever a replacement of the 3
Daniel 7:

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

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That the three kings are replaced is necessary because the ten horns are the ten horns on the beast in 17:12 who will rule with the beast for one hour (figuratively, the 42 months of Revelation 13:5)

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.


The little horn will be diverse from the ten kings because the little horn person will be a Jew.
 
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Wish-it

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Three are never gone at all in Rev. That only happened in Daniel's vision.
What verse in Daniel shows the 3 removed kings are replaced? The event is mentioned three times in Daniel but not one time is there ever a replacement of the 3.
Dan 7.8, 24. Not replaced "subdued" a power struggle in my view between three nations assigned land to Lot and the AC, The king of Assyria. They are also mentioned in Dan 11.41, that they will be delivered, and they are part of the 10 nations from Psalm 83.
 

Wish-it

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The 10 kings in Daniel 7:24 rule concurrently with each other... i.e. at the same time.

Differently, the 7 kings in Revelation 17 rule sequentially, not concurrently with each other.

So the 10 kings of Daniel 7:24 do not become the 7 kings of Revelation 17.

That the little horn person will remove 3 of the 10 kings in Daniel 7, just means that 3 don't go along with his agenda, and he removes them, and replaces them with a different set of 3 kings. The 10 kings of Daniel 7 are the same 10 kings in Revelation 17.
Same horns, different heads, possibly the leaders went along, but not the nations.
If the 10 kings are the 10 kings of the nations of Psalm 83, the the text says, “Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation, so that Israel’s name is remembered no more.”
So it seems likely they act as a coalition together.
 

Douggg

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Same horns, different heads, possibly the leaders went along, but not the nations.
If the 10 kings are the 10 kings of the nations of Psalm 83, the the text says, “Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation, so that Israel’s name is remembered no more.”
So it seems likely they act as a coalition together.
The muslim attempts to destroy Israel end when the Ezekiel 38-39 Gog/Magog event takes place.

The outcome of that event will effectively be the end of Islam because the God of Israel defeats the muslim god Allah. The muslims will be thinking that they will have the victory in the attack on Israel, but their belief in their god Allah completely fails to give them the victory.

Following the Gog/Magog event will be the 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 that correspond to the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9.

The little horn person and the ten kings EU army will enter the middle east following the Gog/Magog event on the premise of being peace keepers for the region. The Jews will mistakenly think that the little horn person is their long awaited king of Israel messiah.




5 stages.jpg
 

Davy

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I apologize if my comments to Davy above were not clear... it is difficult to incorporate everything that one believes in such a brief response....

Since I was personally mentioned, that allows me to break down what CTK has said here. And one of the teachings of The New Testament is the idea for the Bible teacher to speak plainly, being brief. With so many with attention deficit problems today, we have to try and be even more brief when getting the Message of Bible Scripture across.


The book of Daniel was written for the Jews.

No, it was written ABOUT... the Jews and Jerusalem. The FACT that Christ's Book of Revelation which He gave to His Church directly parallels many of the events of the Book of Daniel reveals the Book of Daniel was written for the edification and learning of Christ's Church also.

I've seen that ploy often, "it was written for the Jews, and not for the Church," used by those who try to twist the Scripture away from its intended purpose for Christ's Church. It's a lead-in for deception.

But God would also give Daniel His prophecies that covered the period from Babylon to the end of time, with the majority of these events / prophecies to take place before the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy or 3.5 years after the cross.

CTK is being very... careful to not spill the beans at this point by 'loosely'... applying that 3.5 years after the cross idea.

Fact is, per the Book of Revelation, that 3.5 years of the Book of Daniel, or 1260 days, or 42 months, is shown to happen at the very end of this world (see Rev.11 thru Rev.13). And that means, just a view isolated to Daniel's day means to omit Christ's Book of Revelation given later to the Church. And what would that mean about further understanding of many of the prophecies given Daniel?

I'll give a mechanic analogy, since I am a trained mechanic. If I tell you how to change a spark plug in your car, take you through all the steps, let that symbolically represent prophecy given in Daniel's day. But only afterwards having given those steps just to change the plug, unless I had revealed just how much spark plug gap to set, you won't know how to properly apply the use of your spark plug, and your car engine won't run properly. Let the spark plug gap represent the Book of Revelation updates about the Daniel prophecies. Both Books go together to help understand the Daniel prophecies.

Clearly, Babylon, Medes-Persia, and Greece came to power before Imperial or pagan Rome conquered the known world (before Christ). When we take a look at chapters 2,7 and 8, I think you might agree that it is fairly easy to identify those verses that speak specifically to the first 3 kingdoms. In fact, God does not spend much time talking about them.... but the 4th kingdom of Imperial / pagan Rome is spoken of more than the other 3 kingdoms combined. It really dominates the book of Daniel in the later chapters.... this is of course, when the Messiah arrives, is crucified and establishes His church on the earth.

That above is just a personal opinion. The Book of Daniel speaks a whole lot... about the Babylon kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar. And the Daniel 2 Chapter with verses I have already covered, verses 34-35 and 44-45, that is showing a FIFTH BEAST at the end of this world in conjunction with the feet of part clay and part iron. Both Dougg and CTK fail to include those specific verses in their interpretation. Why? Because it obviously messes with their determined strategy to only recognize a fourth beast kingdom as the final one.

So the key is to be able to identify what kingdom, what actor, what time period are God's prophetic verses speaking to... and yes, most are speaking to this 4th kingdom. This is the time when the Jews are restored back in Jerusalem, they have reinstuted the Holy feast days, the Sabbatical cycles, the Levitical ceremonies.... everything is back the way it was prior to their exile.... with one exception - the Ark of the Covenant which was taken away and hidden by Jeremiah just before the Babylonians came to take the Jews away. This is critical because this is the only piece of furniture that was taken away or destroyed by the Babylonians that could not be restored by the Jews.

That in red above is about the Jew's religion, JUDAISM, not Christianity. And it is NOT about the 4th kingdom. Just who and when was... the 4th beast kingdom per the Book of Daniel? Let's see, No.1 was the head of gold represented Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylon empire; then No.2 was the breast and arms of silver of the Medo-Persia empire; and then No.3 was the belly and thighs of brass representing the Macedonia empire; and then No.4 was the legs of iron represented by the Roman empire.

Thus the 4th beast kingdom was HISTORY with the old pagan Roman empire. It has never been revived either. The closest the Roman empire ever got to being revived was when Italy was a member of the Axis powers during world war two, on the side of Hitler and Japan.


So God provided Daniel with the 70 weeks of years prophecy which predicted their return to Jerusalem, the restoration of their life style, the streets and walls, etc. This was indeed fully and completely restored by the Jews by the end of th 69th week (483 years srom 457 BC). Meaning, the only piece of furniture yet to be restored is the Ark and that could only be restored by God - in the form of Jesus, and He would be baptized in the Jordan on the first day of the 70th week. This would be the start of His ministry and was set aside for the final 7 years of the prophecy.

Looks like CTK is confused about the timing of the end of the 69th week. It ended with Christ's crucifixion, which the Christian Bible scholar E.W. Bullinger set the date of Christ's crucifixion at 29 A.D. (See The Seventy Weeks of Dan. 9:24-27. - Appendix to the Companion Bible).

Ask yourself brethren, if Lord Jesus was crucified to end... the 69th week, then HOW could Jesus have been baptized to START His Ministry to begin the 70th week???

That's enough to reveal CTK is on man's false Seventh Day Adventist's (SDA) false theory that Jesus fuliflled the 70th week of Daniel 9, when the final 70th week ONLY applies to the coming Antichrist at the end of this world. CTK never got the spark plug gap setting from proper study of Christ's Book of Revelation that reveals this point about when the 70th week happens.
 

Wish-it

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I view the Little Horn in Daniel 7 as coming in the future, somewhere in the 'toes' part of the statue timeline:



The Little Horn in Daniel 8 however, appears to have come and gone a long time ago:



What do you think?
I'd consider both little horns the same entity, and for the time of the end, possibly on the horizon. The ten toes probably the ten nations of Psalm 83.
With three subdued, Dan 7.8,24, Dan 11.41. Hence the 10 nations less the three subdued, being seven and the little horn is the eight. The fourth empire I consider is the Ottoman Empire, revived again as a coalition of islamic nations - the descendants of Abraham, Ishmael and Esau, which Gen 16.11,12, Gen 27.39,40 ascribes their part in the latter days. The same enemy from Genesis to Revelation. Scripture confirms scripture.
 

Wish-it

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The little horn is a person - not a kingdom.

The person who becomes the Antichrist does so by being anointed the king of Israel thought-to-be messiah instead of Jesus the rightful king of Israel messiah.

Mark 13:2 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

To be the king of Israel thought-to-be messiah, the person must be a Jew. And his religion cannot be Christianity.

The pope/papacy therefore does not qualify to become the Antichrist.
Why would you consider him to be anointed the king of Israel? Include scriptures, please.
 

Douggg

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Why would you consider him to be anointed the king of Israel? Include scriptures, please.
In John 5:43, Jesus said to the Jews of his day that they reject him as their king although He comes in the name of the Lord. But another coming in his own name (i.e. someone that God did not send to be their king) they would accept. The another will be the Antichrist.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

The Jews (Judaism) are looking for their King of Israel, messiah - someone other than Jesus. The Antichrist will be that person - until he reveals himself to be the man of sin, by committing the act described in 2Thessalonians2:4.
 
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