How many kingdoms in Daniel?

[CTK]

Yes. Revelation is primarily a symbolic book, so I don't think it makes any sense to take the buying or selling literally in terms of the buying or selling of goods and merchandise.

The words "buy" and "sell" are used figuratively sometimes in scripture, such as in this verse where both words are used figuratively.

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and do not sell it, Also wisdom and instruction and understanding.

As you know, there are two places in Revelation that seem to speak of this "buying and selling" metaphor - 13:17 and 6.5-6. I believe they both are used in the same manner. Here is a cut / paste for some of the narrative for 6:5-6.... for what it is worth,


Revelation 6:5-6 (Third seal)

5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.”

The black horse of the third seal in Revelation 6:5–6 paints a vivid picture of spiritual and institutional corruption during the papacy’s reign. Its rider holds a pair of scales, representing the weighing and transactional treatment of spiritual truths and leadership. The proclamation of "a quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius" highlights the exploitation and manipulation within the medieval church, where sacred matters were often monetized for power and profit. While some interpret this metaphor as referencing famine or economic hardship, it might be understood as reflecting the practice of simony—the buying and selling of church positions. High-ranking roles, symbolized by wheat, required a significant price, while lesser positions, represented by barley, were more affordable.

This system corrupted the church’s mission, turning sacred offices into commodities that prioritized wealth and influence over spiritual integrity.

The living creature’s role in calling John to "come and see" aligns with their testimony that could expose the depth of corruption within the church and call for a return to genuine faith and leadership. The scales held by the rider emphasize the church’s deviation from truth, as spiritual matters were weighed and sold rather than freely shared according to God’s Word. The voice calling out during this seal appears to serve as an alert to draw attention to the depth of the church’s corruption.

 

[Keiw]

Is it possible the term "buy or sell" speaks not to the purchase of groceries, but to the concern of acquiring salvation?

No. It says one cannot buy or sell unless they take the mark of the beast. No salvation in the beast for any.

 

[Keiw]

The mark controlling buying and selling is clearly on a personal level not national like you are describing. If a person has the mark, they (that one person) can buy or sell but another person without the mark cannot.

the majority already have the mark, they don't even know it. But it can be a future prophecy as well.

 

[ewq1938]

the majority already have the mark, they don't even know it. But it can be a future prophecy as well.

There can be types and shadows of the mark but not the mark itself. That can only exist when the Ac/FP beast issues it during the 42 month reign.

 

[Davy]

Of course God came to set up His earthly kingdom which, according to Daniel, will never be destroyed but that is not what this (Daniel) is speaking about. There are 4 and only 4 kingdoms that come out of the earth or the sea. God's kingdom is not of this world.

No, there are not only 4 kingdoms being described in Daniel 2. The tradition of men you are following has you locked into that fib.

I showed you those Daniel 2:34-35 verses that reveal FIVE SEPARATE PIECES of the beast statue that Nebuchadnezzar saw in his dream. That means FIVE KINGDOMS, not four.

Dwelling on the "fourth beast" idea of Daniel 7 will cause one to become spiritually blinded to that Daniel 2:34-35 Scripture that shows FIVE separate pieces of the beast statue instead of four.


The Daniel 2:44-45 verses give even more info about the final 5th beast kingdom of the feet of part iron and part clay...

Dan 2:44-45
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
KJV

"in the days of these kings" = meaning at the end, the "one hour" that the ten kings have power with the beast, per Rev.17:12.

"but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms" = the Kingdom God will setup that will end the kingdoms of those kings.

Count... the PIECES that represent the beast kingdoms setup at the end which that "stone" will smite upon the beast's feet of ten toes...

1. iron
2. brass
3. clay
4. silver
5. gold

What are the attributes of those 5 pieces, from heaviest material to lightest, for that is part of the idea of that beast statue as a symbol also:

Gold is the heaviest (1206 lbs.per cu.ft.) = head of gold; Nebuchadnezzar, Babylon empire
Silver is next heaviest (654) = breast and arms; Medo-Persia empire
Brass is next heaviest (535) = belly and thighs; Alexander's Macedonia empire
Iron is next (491) = legs of iron; Roman empire
Clay (150) is the lightest material = feet of ten toes; final beast kingdom, one world government over all nations.

Thus the symbology of those FIVE pieces of metal of the beast statue for the final beast, represents a kingdom that is top heavy, and will not require much to tip it over and tumble to the ground. That si what Lord Jesus will do on the day of His future coming, tumble it to the ground, all FIVE pieces TOGETHER at the same time.

This means ALL... the previous beast empires of history are going to be REVIVED within the FINAL 5th beast kingdom at the end. No matter that 10 kings are involved, because even if you believe there's only FOUR beast kingdoms being covered in the Book of Daniel, there's no way to use those 10 kings to break down that final beast into just those FIVE pieces.

 

[CTK]

No, there are not only 4 kingdoms being described in Daniel 2. The tradition of men you are following has you locked into that fib.

I showed you those Daniel 2:34-35 verses that reveal FIVE SEPARATE PIECES of the beast statue that Nebuchadnezzar saw in his dream. That means FIVE KINGDOMS, not four.

Dwelling on the "fourth beast" idea of Daniel 7 will cause one to become spiritually blinded to that Daniel 2:34-35 Scripture that shows FIVE separate pieces of the beast statue instead of four.


The Daniel 2:44-45 verses give even more info about the final 5th beast kingdom of the feet of part iron and part clay...

Dan 2:44-45
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
KJV

"in the days of these kings" = meaning at the end, the "one hour" that the ten kings have power with the beast, per Rev.17:12.

"but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms" = the Kingdom God will setup that will end the kingdoms of those kings.

Count... the PIECES that represent the beast kingdoms setup at the end which that "stone" will smite upon the beast's feet of ten toes...

1. iron
2. brass
3. clay
4. silver
5. gold

What are the attributes of those 5 pieces, from heaviest material to lightest, for that is part of the idea of that beast statue as a symbol also:

Gold is the heaviest (1206 lbs.per cu.ft.) = head of gold; Nebuchadnezzar, Babylon empire
Silver is next heaviest (654) = breast and arms; Medo-Persia empire
Brass is next heaviest (535) = belly and thighs; Alexander's Macedonia empire
Iron is next (491) = legs of iron; Roman empire
Clay (150) is the lightest material = feet of ten toes; final beast kingdom, one world government over all nations.

Thus the symbology of those FIVE pieces of metal of the beast statue for the final beast, represents a kingdom that is top heavy, and will not require much to tip it over and tumble to the ground. That si what Lord Jesus will do on the day of His future coming, tumble it to the ground, all FIVE pieces TOGETHER at the same time.

This means ALL... the previous beast empires of history are going to be REVIVED within the FINAL 5th beast kingdom at the end. No matter that 10 kings are involved, because even if you believe there's only FOUR beast kingdoms being covered in the Book of Daniel, there's no way to use those 10 kings to break down that final beast into just those FIVE pieces.

Sorry, you are so wrong. God brought only 4 kingdoms out of the sea. This is not about “pieces”, (which is one of the reasons God symbolizes them as metal only. And He doubles down by identifying the distinct parts of a man.

The clay is purposeful not symbolized as a metal, because the clay represents His people under the control of the 4th beast of pagan Rome.
Further. You have completely butchered the understanding of verses 2:34-2:45.

 

[Davy]

Sorry, you are so wrong. God brought only 4 kingdoms out of the sea.

Fine, stay locked on that "fourth beast" idea of Daniel 7, and disregard those Daniel 2 verses like you've been doing. Lot of brethren like to choose a certain Scripture over others so they can try and build simple theories instead of addressing all of the Scripture to discover what God is actually revealing in His Word. That is what you are doing by omitting the subject of those Dan.2:34-35 and Dan.2:44-45 verses.

 

[Keiw]

There can be types and shadows of the mark but not the mark itself. That can only exist when the Ac/FP beast issues it during the 42 month reign.

the 10 horned beast has been there for many years already.

 

[ewq1938]

the 10 horned beast has been there for many years already.

Older versions but not the last one of Rev 13.

 

[Keiw]

Older versions but not the last one of Rev 13.

yes the one of rev 13-- we are nearing the fall of babylon the great.

 

[Davy]

yes the one of rev 13-- we are nearing the fall of babylon the great.

Not really, the Rev.13:1 beast is only nearing completion today. And with President Trump in office, it is actually going the other way. But watch out when the next election happens, it will probably be someone even worse than Biden or Obama.

 

[ewq1938]

yes the one of rev 13-- we are nearing the fall of babylon the great.

Babylon comes to power when the Rev 13 beast does, which hasn't happened yet.

 

[Davy]

If one doesn't understand what the devil did to rebel against God originally, then they likely won't understand what the devil is coming to do at the end either with this final one-world beast kingdom that is forming up today.

That is why I receive so much friction from brethren when trying to explain what it was that Lucifer did in that 'old world' when he first rebelled against God, and drew a third of the angels into rebellion with him. The devil wants to hide that event as much as possible. Yet it is written about in God's Word.

 

[Keiw]

Babylon comes to power when the Rev 13 beast does, which hasn't happened yet.

Babylon the great= worldwide false religionsssssssssssssssss

Babylon comes to power when the Rev 13 beast does, which hasn't happened yet.

They have been in place for awhile-many years. Jesus teaches-The world took no note just as in Noah's day about these last days. Luke 17:26

 

[ewq1938]

Babylon the great= worldwide false religionsssssssssssssssss

Actually it's regarding a certain false religion tied to a false god that appears in the endtimes.

They have been in place for awhile-many years. Jesus teaches-The world took no note just as in Noah's day about these last days. Luke 17:26

Old types and shadows but the final beast and Babylon are only in power for 42 months then will be destroyed by Christ. The 42 months has not started yet so Neither the beast or Babylon is in power as of yet. Maybe they are close to being so, maybe not.

 

[ewq1938]

yes the one of rev 13-- we are nearing the fall of babylon the great.

She isn't even in power yet.

 

[Douggg]

Actually it's regarding a certain false religion tied to a false god that appears in the endtimes.


Old types and shadows but the final beast and Babylon are only in power for 42 months then will be destroyed by Christ. The 42 months has not started yet so Neither the beast or Babylon is in power as of yet. Maybe they are close to being so, maybe not.

She isn't even in power yet.

Babylon the great - the mystical kingdom of Satan and his angels - is responsible for the deaths of prophets, saints, and all slain upon the earth - because of false religions and beliefs over man's history. The particular false religion during the 42 months will be that of worshiping the beast-king and his image (indwelled by Satan). So you are partially correct.

The fall of Babylon the great is Satan and his angels being cast down to earth from the second heaven in the middle of the 7 years, in Revelation 12:7-9. Satan will have but a time, times, half time left (Revelation 12:14) during which he will be a terror knowing his time is short, having great wrath. Which will be the third woe to the inhabitors of the earth - that spans the time, times, half time.

In Revelation 9:1, Satan is the angel falling from heaven and given the key of the bottomless pit. Which Satan will open the pit and release the flesh tormenting locust creatures as part of his great wrath..

 

[Keiw]

Actually it's regarding a certain false religion tied to a false god that appears in the endtimes.





Old types and shadows but the final beast and Babylon are only in power for 42 months then will be destroyed by Christ. The 42 months has not started yet so Neither the beast or Babylon is in power as of yet. Maybe they are close to being so, maybe not.

All the signs show we are near the end of these last days. My posts are true.

 

[ewq1938]

All the signs show we are near the end of these last days. My posts are true.

No signs show that.

The trib hasn't even started so we are not near the end.

 

[PS95]

yes the one of rev 13-- we are nearing the fall of babylon the great.

Keiw-
is that a JW "new light"? I always remember the JW teaching was "babylon" fell and was judged back in 1919.
JW babylon = all organized religion except the jw organization)

here is a watchtower quote-

" Babylon the Great was their relentless enemy and would have to be exposed as fallen. True worship would have to be restored among the nations. Those intrepid Christians intensified their house-to-house ministry. They also paraded publicly, exposing false religion with placards that stated: “Religion Is a Snare and a Racket” and, “Serve God and Christ the King.” False religion still continued to flourish and function, as it had done in ancient Babylon, but in relation to Jehovah’s Witnesses, Babylon the Great had fallen in 1919....
Yes, it is time to sever all affiliations with false religion. But if we get out of Babylon the Great, where must we turn? To Jehovah’s true worship in association with his witnesses."

The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah’s Kingdom 1989