How many kingdoms in Daniel?

[CTK]

.Clay in scripture in the OT refers to Israel, God's people: but only clay that is workable, malleable, useful for the purpose for which it is moulded and shaped. Potters clay comes in various degrees of readiness. The clay attached to the Roman Empire in this prophetic context is miry clay. Unworkable without extensive preparation.

Agree.

The clay that's destroyed along with the iron at the end is still miry. This represents a church, but an apostate church that has refused to be disciplined and refused to repent.

The Stone does not destroy anything or anyone. The Jewish people will decide on their own at the cross as to whether they would accept Jesus as their Messiah. The destruction of everything, including the ceramic or miry clay (2:35 and 2:45) takes place at the end of time.

In history, this represents the papacy, later described as the little horn that grew out of Rome in the 5th century.

So now we can leave chapter 2 and move on to chapter 7 where God will continue to use the same 4 kingdoms as in chapter 2 but He will use very different symbols beccause He wants to impart more information as we move through this tremendously complicated prophecy that will cover over 2700 years. In chapter 2, God uses metal to represent the 4 kingdoms - metal is not broken or will change. These are 4 solid kingdoms presented at the "kingdom level." Chapter 7 is presented by God using predatory animals and this reveals their warlike behaviour - man is always killing man. And chapter 7 is presented not at the "kingdom level," but now at the "king level."

And you can easily see how God rather quickly dispenses with the first 3 kingdoms... because the most important activity / events / actors will take place within this 4th kingdom beast - pagan Rome. This is where all the action is.

So, what happens after the cross? The Jews who accepted Jesus as their Messiah would to out into the Roman Empire and preach the Good News. First they would preach to the Jews and then to the Gentiles. And as you know, the Jewish Christian church would grow exponentially during the first couple hundred years. However, by the 4th century, the Jewish Christian church had transitioned into a Gentile Christian church - now entirely dominated by Gentiles. The Jews were essentially removed from the church. And with the tremendous growth and power of this Gentile Christian church would come the Roman like heirarchy where there would be different levels of powers within the church. The bishops would sit at thr top of this powerful church. No longer would this church preach the Gospel that Paul preached. Instead, it would bring in paganism in a great way. It would change God's laws and doctrines, etc.

If we fast forward a hundred years or so after Constantine, we would find the demise of pagan Rome in 476 AD (7:11). Now, this Gentile Christian church is no longer subordinate to an Imperial Roman system and they becme the ruling power throughout the Empire. And within 100 years, this most powerful institution, that had its start with Paul and the disciples, became this "beast" that Daniel could not possibly recognize to any animal on earth. Then, after power struggles WITHIN THIS GENTILE CHRISTIAN church, we would find the bishop of Rome would take power over all of the church. He is the top dog and soon be given the title of Pope. (This is your little horn, and how he came to rise out of the original 4th beast of pagan Rome). And anyone can read what God reveals about this little horn in chapters 7 and 8 on how he conducts himself, says pompouse things against God Himself, claims to be god on earth, forgive sins, infallibility, etc.,

This is the one who has been preaching a different gospel and claiming to be god on earth for 1500 years.

i will again stop here and pick up your with your remaining comments tomorrow.

Why the 5th century? Because the other horns all grew up from the Roman Empire together, and the little horn grew among them. All those 10 were European powers. 3 were destroyed, 7 formed the foundations of modern Europe. The little horn was that union of iron and clay... Church and state... That had its beginnings with Constantine, and developed over the ensuing centuries until it was given authority and power to rule independently as a union of church and state in 538ad.

The sea beast of Revelation is a perfect symbol of the papacy. Comprising the characteristics of the powers that preceded it,

• The wealth and splendor of Babylon
• The unchangeable (infallible) law making of Meda Persia
• The philosophy of Greece and
• The cruelty and power of Rome.

It endured for precisely 1260 years. From the time the eastern Roman Emperor Justinian sent His army to free the pope from under the rule of the Goths in 538ad, to the capture of the pope by the French in 1798.
He is called the Antichrist because he is a counterfeit Christ.

• Christ rose from water at His baptism before His ministry. So also did the beast in the prophecy. So also did the Catholic church, amid the main populations centres (“And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. ” Revelation 17:15) Sea is the symbol for populated centres of many nations, such as Europe was in the early centuries of Christianity.
• Christ ministered in person for 3 and a half literal years. The beast ministers before it's seeming mortal wound, 3 and a half prophetic years, or 1260 days. The papacy lived as a union of church and state 1260 years.
• Christ rose from the dead. The beasts 'mortal' wound is healed. The papacy was returned to its former union of church and state in 1929. It has been progressively healing since. It's influence over world politics is growing constantly.
• Christ is the image of the Father. The beast is the image of the dragon. (Compare Revelation 12:3 and 13:1) The papacy claims to be Christ's vice Regent, or the vicar of Christ on earth... Christ's body, His image. It claims to forgive sin. It claims the prerogatives of God. Blasphemy.
• The Father of Christ is worshipped as we worship Christ. The dragon is worshipped as the beast is worshipped. The Devil is worshipped as the papacy is worshipped. How do we best show our worship? Through obedience and surrender. (Through receiving the mark of the beast).
• The land beast (in contrast to the sea, the land must be in a less populated area without numerous nations and Metropolitan cities... Such as the new world... America.) It is the land beast which acts as the beasts (false) prophet by directing the world to obey and accept the beasts mark of authority. The holy Spirit was sent to influence the world to obey Christ, and accept His mark of authority... The seal of God.

There are more parallels and prophetic fulfilments, types and antitypes, I can show you of interested. I have previously posted this a couple of times without garnering any interest. I cannot see how anyone can dismiss the above and think preterism or futurism is more believable.
The Dragon is Satan.
The sea beast of Revelation 13 is the papacy.
The land beast is now growing, and quickly becoming the false prophet. It is the Protestantism of the United States, fallen into apostasy because it joins forces with the papacy and enforces the mark. The US government, under the powerful influence of the evangelical and Pentecostal churches, will legislate religious dogma in obedience to the Vatican.
Can no-one see that happening as we speak?

You think you could learn more of prophecy and the French revolution?

 

[Brakelite]

The sea beast is a kingdom the Ac rules so the sea beast cannot be the Ac. The land beast is the Ac.




Rev 11 has nothing to do with France.






The 3.5 days are literal days because those last days are within the beasts 42 months, and thus cannot be 3.5 years within a 3.5 year timeframe.

Why do you paint prophetic symbolism as being so untrustworthy and inconsistent? Either the year for a day principle is true, and you use it consistently, or its not true... Christians have been using that principle for centuries as a key to understand where we are in the timeline of prophecy. The most remarkable example and one that sets the tone for all other time prophecies, is Daniel 9 and the 70 weeks.

 

[ewq1938]

Why do you paint prophetic symbolism as being so untrustworthy and inconsistent? Either the year for a day principle is true, and you use it consistently, or its not true...

Nope. Sometimes it can be valid but in other cases it cannot such as Christ being in the grave for 3 days. It was not 3 years. Same with the two prophets of Rev 11. They are dead and in the street for 3.5 days, not years. I already explained why it cannot be years.

 

[ewq1938]

Beasts are never presented in scripture as individuals.

Wrong.


A beast has also been used to represent a person or persons:

Ecclesiastes 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.


Titus 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.


2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;


Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

A person called a beast:

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Keiw]

I could not agree with you more! So, do you have an understanding of chapter 11 and how it speaks to Revelation? Thanks.

Please be specific--

 

[CTK]

Please be specific--

In general, there are many elements in Daniel that move forward to Revelation. Specifically, you made a comment (below) regarding the 7 beasts.... the eight king, etc. I would like to understand those verses in Daniel - perhaps chapters 2 or 7or 8 or 11 that are reflected in Revelaiton...You are indeed correct - without Daniel - no Revelation.

"The beasts mentioned were the world powers. There will be 7 total before the end. Rome was #5-- I believe Great britian was #6--The 2 horned beast of Rev 13 is the 7th. Its been in place since ww1 minimum. And the 7 headed beast with 10 horns is an eighth king in itself, but unlike the others."

 

[ewq1938]

In general, there are many elements in Daniel that move forward to Revelation. Specifically, you made a comment (below) regarding the 7 beasts.... the eight king, etc. I would like to understand those verses in Daniel - perhaps chapters 2 or 7or 8 or 11 that are reflected in Revelaiton...You are indeed correct - without Daniel - no Revelation.

"The beasts mentioned were the world powers. There will be 7 total before the end. Rome was #5-- I believe Great britian was #6--The 2 horned beast of Rev 13 is the 7th. Its been in place since ww1 minimum. And the 7 headed beast with 10 horns is an eighth king in itself, but unlike the others."

So the first beast of Rev 13 is not actually first? The second beast comes first and isn't a prophet like the text says but is instead is a nation? That interpretation destroys what the actual text presents.

 

[CTK]

So the first beast of Rev 13 is not actually first? The second beast comes first and isn't a prophet like the text says but is instead is a nation? That interpretation destroys what the actual text presents.

I don’t know what you are saying, I was asking a question and had also cut / pasted his previous comment.

If you would like to answer the question also, that would be fine… that is, what interpretations in Daniel carry forward to Revelation…

 

[Keiw]

So the first beast of Rev 13 is not actually first? The second beast comes first and isn't a prophet like the text says but is instead is a nation? That interpretation destroys what the actual text presents.

The first beast is not a nation( country) it is represented by 10 horns. A horn is a kingdom( country) thus more like a place where kingdoms gather together.

 

[Keiw]

In general, there are many elements in Daniel that move forward to Revelation. Specifically, you made a comment (below) regarding the 7 beasts.... the eight king, etc. I would like to understand those verses in Daniel - perhaps chapters 2 or 7or 8 or 11 that are reflected in Revelaiton...You are indeed correct - without Daniel - no Revelation.

"The beasts mentioned were the world powers. There will be 7 total before the end. Rome was #5-- I believe Great britian was #6--The 2 horned beast of Rev 13 is the 7th. Its been in place since ww1 minimum. And the 7 headed beast with 10 horns is an eighth king in itself, but unlike the others."

Can you ask specific questions please?

 

[CTK]

Can you ask specific questions please?

I did! I copied his response at the bottom of my comment asking for the verses and hat support his “beasts.”

 

[ewq1938]

The first beast is not a nation( country) it is represented by 10 horns. A horn is a kingdom( country) thus more like a place where kingdoms gather together.

The first beast is a global kingdom or government composed of ten smaller kingdoms.

 

[Keiw]

I did! I copied his response at the bottom of my comment asking for the verses and hat support his “beasts.”

Those beasts didn't exist yet when Daniel was written. Are you wondering why the # is 7?

 

[Keiw]

The first beast is a global kingdom or government composed of ten smaller kingdoms.

Its the entity called an eighth king in itself-- Not a global kingdom-the united nations. Exercising authority in the earth, unlike the 7 world powers which were a single country, it has no country but is represented by many countries.

 

[ewq1938]

Its the entity called an eighth king in itself-- Not a global kingdom-the united nations. Exercising authority in the earth, unlike the 7 world powers which were a single country, it has no country but is represented by many countries.

The ten horned beast is a global kingdom.

 

[Keiw]

The ten horned beast is a global kingdom.

The bible describes it as an eighth king in itself--like a global kingdom, like the united nations is--- Here is a clue for you out of Rev 13--cannot buy or sell( sanctions)

 

[CTK]

The bible describes it as an eighth king in itself--like a global kingdom, like the united nations is--- Here is a clue for you out of Rev 13--cannot buy or sell( sanctions)

Is it possible the term "buy or sell" speaks not to the purchase of groceries, but to the concern of acquiring salvation?

 

[ewq1938]

The bible describes it as an eighth king in itself--like a global kingdom, like the united nations is--- Here is a clue for you out of Rev 13--cannot buy or sell( sanctions)

The mark controlling buying and selling is clearly on a personal level not national like you are describing. If a person has the mark, they (that one person) can buy or sell but another person without the mark cannot.

 

[ewq1938]

Is it possible the term "buy or sell" speaks not to the purchase of groceries, but to the concern of acquiring salvation?

No. Salvation is not bought or sold by the people in the beast system. It's contextually the buying or selling of goods.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Is it possible the term "buy or sell" speaks not to the purchase of groceries, but to the concern of acquiring salvation?

Yes. Revelation is primarily a symbolic book, so I don't think it makes any sense to take the buying or selling literally in terms of the buying or selling of goods and merchandise.

The words "buy" and "sell" are used figuratively sometimes in scripture, such as in this verse where both words are used figuratively.

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and do not sell it, Also wisdom and instruction and understanding.