"True" Israel?

[Randy Kluth]

I had this conversation on another forum, and wish to share it here for your consideration...

Someone said:
Those of faith in Jesus Christ are Abraham's seed (Gal 3:29), the true Israel (Ro 9:6-8, Gal 3:7-9, 6:16).

And that is "international Christianity."

You are therefore introducing a *new definition* for "Israel," which to me is irrational. You are drawing upon Paul's use of the name "Israel" to indicate the ethical standard that was required of Israel to be "God's People."

But they did not stop being called "Israel" even in their infidelity. This is what you're missing. It is a matter of "faithfulness"--not a matter of redefinition.

Let me put it like this. If you are unfaithful as a Christian, I may say you are not a "true Christian," not at all meaning that you don't go to church or pledge allegiance to the doctrines of the Church. I may simply say you are not a "true Christian" because you don't happen to be living up to the high ethical standards required of Christians.

This is not a redefinition of "Christian." It is marking who is "true," or "faithful," in their Christian practice.

The same would be true of the Jew who is not acting like a "true Jew" or of the nation who is not acting like "true Israel" because they are not living up to the standards represented by the Law of Moses.

The Christian does not stop being a "Christian" simply because he or she is backslidden. The Jew does not stop being a "Jew" simply because he or she is backslidden. Israel does not stop being 'Israel" because it has gone apostate.

No, these are simply not being "true" to their calling. They are to be cut off in the judgment. But until then any "cutting off" is temporary. Christians remain "Christians" and Jews remain "Jews." And Israel remains "Israel." You cannot redefine who they are simply because they are backslidden.

 

[brightfame52]

The Church, the Body of Christ, them that belong to Him are the True Israel, His and Abrahams Spiritual Seed Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Abrahams seed here and Israel are one and the same, and as it stipulates in Vs 28 racial and social distinctions are done away with Vs 28

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Church, the Body of Christ, them that belong to Him are the True Israel, His and Abrahams Spiritual Seed Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Abrahams seed here and Israel are one and the same, and as it stipulates in Vs 28 racial and social distinctions are done away with Vs 28

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Yes, Paul defined "True Israel" as the nation that will eventually accept Christianity and that now is only represented by a mere remnant of believers. However, this does not re-define "Israel" as a purely spiritual entity, the International Church. "Israel" remains defined as the nation peopled by Jews primarily, who follow Jewish customs. They can be renamed as "Not God's People" when they act inappropriately as a People and defy God's Covenant. This does not stop them from being authentic "Israel," the nation. It just means they are temporarily being suspended from being God's People.

 

[Behold]

I may simply say you are not a "true Christian" because you don't happen to be living up to the high ethical standards required of Christians.

You have a very legalist and flawed view regarding what is a "" real Christian,.""
No doubt this is realated to your skewed concept that Salvation is a contract between God and the sinner, whereby the sinner agrees to be good later, if God will save them.
So, based on your Thread's commentary we see that your Self righteous Legalism mentality is up and running.
Now , your view is unscriptural and denies that God's Salvation is a "GIFT" given while "we were YET sinners".
Your view in fact denies The Cross of Christ and attempts to turn salvation into "God's part and my works" = Salvation.

I'll remind you that Salvaiton is "Grace through Faith", "without works or deeds of the law".

"Jesus came into the world to save sinners" and God does not obligate a SINNER to promise to perform for Him before they are saved or after they are saved, because Salvation is a "FREE GIFT". @Randy Kluth

 

[Muna]

Yes, Paul defined "True Israel" as the nation that will eventually accept Christianity and that now is only represented by a mere remnant of believers. However, this does not re-define "Israel" as a purely spiritual entity, the International Church. "Israel" remains defined as the nation peopled by Jews primarily, who follow Jewish customs. They can be renamed as "Not God's People" when they act inappropriately as a People and defy God's Covenant. This does not stop them from being authentic "Israel," the nation. It just means they are temporarily being suspended from being God's People.

Paul refers to them various ways, as the natural branches, not all Israel, or Israel after the flesh, or his kinsmen according to the flesh, which are children of Abraham after the flesh.

For example

Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren,
my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Romans 9:6 For they are not all Israel,
which are of Israel

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham,
are they all children

So neither because THEY are the seed of Abraham ARE THEY ALL children of God

Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh,
these are not the children of God

Not sure where the words, "true israel" are

1 Cr 10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

But in the same way here Paul says,

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, Paul defined "True Israel" as the nation that will eventually accept Christianity and that now is only represented by a mere remnant of believers. However, this does not re-define "Israel" as a purely spiritual entity, the International Church. "Israel" remains defined as the nation peopled by Jews primarily, who follow Jewish customs. They can be renamed as "Not God's People" when they act inappropriately as a People and defy God's Covenant. This does not stop them from being authentic "Israel," the nation. It just means they are temporarily being suspended from being God's People.

No more israel the nation as Per a nation in covenant with God. But thats a hard truthh for many to receive, its a strong delusion friend.

 

[NotTheRock]

The Christian does not stop being a "Christian" simply because he or she is backslidden.

Are they still a Christian if they renounce their belief in Christ?

 

[NotTheRock]

It was God's will that Israel again came into existence. Nothing happens in this world without God's approval. Clearly, Jews and Israel remain an important and special part of God's plan.

 

[Muna]

Are they still a Christian if they renounce their belief in Christ?

Good point NotTheRock.

A Christian is a follower of Christ

Jesus said,

Matt 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me,
is not worthy of me.

Of these disciples here it says

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back,
and walked no more with him.

 

[brightfame52]

It was God's will that Israel again came into existence. Nothing happens in this world without God's approval. Clearly, Jews and Israel remain an important and special part of God's plan.

No they dont, once Christ was born and completed His earthly Ministry, and died on the cross, no more need for the nation of Israel, she served her purpose, only Spiritual Israel remains, which was always the remnant in the nation Rom 9:6 but now the gentile remnant is united to the spiritual remnant, and thats how all Israel is saved.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Are they still a Christian if they renounce their belief in Christ?

No, if they fully apostacize they are no longer Christian. If Israel, as a nation, fully apostacizes from their Covenant with God, they have become a False Israel in a sense.

However, God has promised to always set aside a remnant of Israel for Himself, even in times of corruption. That way He can always rebuild the nation from the residue of what once was. As the Prophet said, the stump will once against produce a tree.

 

[bro.tan]

I wonder how an individual can read a scripture such as the following, when Jesus says in (Matthew 15:24 ) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel and yet not understand the significance or the importance of biblical Israel. The truth of the matter is, people as a whole, know very little about Israel or their relationship with God. A point one should take note of, is that, it was Israel who received the word of God. It was Israel, through whom God revealed Himself to man. And Jesus, Himself was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Now other sheep, were received into Jesus fold and these other sheep were the Gentiles. Jesus stated that there would be one fold and one shepherd. In other words Jesus is the way of salvation to all, to Jew and Gentile alike. And to follow Jesus, and to be His sheep, one must obey the word of God. Now Gods word as mentioned was given to Israel. Hence to be a sheep in Jesus fold, one must adhere to the word given to Israel.

The Israelites were remove from the land of Israel, it was left as an empty vacant lot, with know inhabitants. Now, if one can understand that any land which has been emptied of its rightful owners can be claimed by any nationality of people that have power or permission to settle in and possess it, then it should also be easy to understand that nationality of people Which move in it and take over the land can assume (adopt) the culture, history, and even call them self by the name of the people that the they have replaced. After a long period of years, that nationality would be accepted by the rest of the world as being the original and rightful inhabitants of that land. This would especially be true if the original people of the land had been move by force, and carried off as slaves. Such is the case of the real Israelites (Jews)!

The God of Israel (The God of the Bible) pronounced a sentence upon Israel. He told them that if they would not keep his laws and abide by his rules, he would curse them, telling them exactly what would befall them. Israel broke his laws and did not keep his rules, so the Lord cursed them as he said he would. (See Deuteronomy 28th chapter).

In the 28th chapter, it should be understood that a lot of these things happened over the course of many years, continuing down to our time. Because this curse was pronounces upon us when Israel first became a nation, many of these curses occurred before our time and we don't recognize some of them, but some we do. Those we recognize are the ones that we will point out. The Lord said these curses will be upon Israel for a sign and wonder; (sign means to identify and wonder is to ask why).

But let's go to the future in Deuteronomy 30: 1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 and shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 that then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

Paul said this in Romans 11: 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[NotTheRock]

Good point NotTheRock.

A Christian is a follower of Christ

Jesus said,

Matt 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me,
is not worthy of me.

Of these disciples here it says

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back,
and walked no more with him.

Great post.

 

[NotTheRock]

No they dont, once Christ was born and completed His earthly Ministry, and died on the cross, no more need for the nation of Israel, she served her purpose, only Spiritual Israel remains, which was always the remnant in the nation Rom 9:6 but now the gentile remnant is united to the spiritual remnant, and thats how all Israel is saved.

So why then did God bring back Israel?

 

[Wick Stick]

I had this conversation on another forum, and wish to share it here for your consideration...

Someone said:
Those of faith in Jesus Christ are Abraham's seed (Gal 3:29), the true Israel (Ro 9:6-8, Gal 3:7-9, 6:16).

And that is "international Christianity."

You are therefore introducing a *new definition* for "Israel," which to me is irrational. You are drawing upon Paul's use of the name "Israel" to indicate the ethical standard that was required of Israel to be "God's People."

That's not introducing a new definition. That's restoring the original definition.

At the first parts of Genesis, being a child of Abraham means inheriting the promise through faith. Isaac inherits by faith; Ishmael does not. Jacob inherits through faith; Esau sells his birthright through unbelief.

Somewhere along the line, the Jews got it mixed up. They started reckoning it through genealogies. That was a mistake.

Jesus and Paul spend some time correcting that mistake... putting things back the way they were meant to be.

 

[WitnessX]

One olive tree, all believers in Christ Jesus, supported by the one root.

Romans 11:17 (AMP)
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you [Gentiles], being like a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among them to share with them the rich root of the olive tree,

spiritual Israel, evidenced by Nineveh standing as witness in the day of Judgement and routinely pointed out through out the New Testament.

Acts 15:9 (AMP)
and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith [in Jesus].

Romans 3:22 (AMP)
This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [Jew or Gentile] who believe [and trust in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s Son]. There is no distinction,

Romans 10:12 (AMP)
For there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile; for the same Lord is Lord over all [of us], and [He is] abounding in riches (blessings) for all who call on Him [in faith and prayer].

Galatians 3:28 (AMP)
There is [now no distinction in regard to salvation] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you [who believe] are all one in Christ Jesus [no one can claim a spiritual superiority].

Colossians 3:11 (AMP)
a renewal in which there is no [distinction between] Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, [nor between nations whether] barbarian or Scythian, [nor in status whether] slave or free, but Christ is all, and in all [so believers are equal in Christ, without distinction].

 

[Randy Kluth]

You have a very legalist and flawed view regarding what is a "" real Christian,.""

Every time you respond to me, it's negative. So, I'm not interested. Good Christians try to build fellow believers up in their most holy faith. You don't. So, don't respond to me anymore unless you wish to do so as a brother in Christ.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That's not introducing a new definition. That's restoring the original definition.

No, the original definition of Israel is as a literal nation--not a conglomeration of nations. Doing that it is in fact a re-definition. It is a metaphorical definition because "nation" is singular. Applying a singular "nation" to a conglomeration of nations has to be a metaphorical use, and not a literal use of the term. It is clearly a change in definition.

At the first parts of Genesis, being a child of Abraham means inheriting the promise through faith. Isaac inherits by faith; Ishmael does not. Jacob inherits through faith; Esau sells his birthright through unbelief.

Somewhere along the line, the Jews got it mixed up. They started reckoning it through genealogies. That was a mistake.

Jesus and Paul spend some time correcting that mistake... putting things back the way they were meant to be.

Some Jews get it wrong, and don't choose to live by faith. Instead, they use the Law of God as a means of doing what they want, dignifying what they do with some kind of religious justification.

But God's promise that an entire nation will one day fulfill His wish to be a nation of God is something that has to take place simply because God promised it. It has nothing to do with those individuals who fail to live by the standard of faith Israel was called to live by.

 

[Wick Stick]

No, the original definition of Israel is as a literal nation--not a conglomeration of nations. Doing that it is in fact a re-definition. It is a metaphorical definition because "nation" is singular. Applying a singular "nation" to a conglomeration of nations has to be a metaphorical use, and not a literal use of the term. It is clearly a change in definition.

Nah. Israel the nation began to exist during the Exodus, when a diverse group of peoples who came out of Egypt were all baptized together and became one group. Per Paul, 1Cor 10:

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

If you disagree with Paul... ask a Rabbi. Even modern Rabbis will tell you as much. Israel is very much a "conglomeration" and its membership has ALWAYS been based on adoption, not genealogy.

Some Jews get it wrong, and don't choose to live by faith. Instead, they use the Law of God as a means of doing what they want, dignifying what they do with some kind of religious justification.

Some? Never ever in the history of the world has the majority of Jews "got it right." They were rebellious and willfully blind from the very beginning. Even the very first Jews broke the covenant AS IT WAS GEING GIVEN. It has only EVER been the "remnant" who were faithful.

But God's promise that an entire nation will one day fulfill His wish to be a nation of God is something that has to take place simply because God promised it. It has nothing to do with those individuals who fail to live by the standard of faith Israel was called to live by.

You seem to have ignored the part where God said Israel would be completely destroyed and then resurrected through adoption. Which... happened.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Nah. Israel the nation began to exist during the Exodus, when a diverse group of peoples who came out of Egypt were all baptized together and became one group. Per Paul, 1Cor 10:

Suit yourself. You are very casual about using a false definition of "Israel." It is not a conglomeration of many nations, but rather, a single nation. I suppose you can say anything you want and justify it anyway you find to justify it. Be happy with your definition.

Never ever in the history of the world has the majority of Jews "got it right." They were rebellious and willfully blind from the very beginning. Even the very first Jews broke the covenant AS IT WAS GEING GIVEN. It has only EVER been the "remnant" who were faithful.

Sounds like Luther's "Against the Jews and their Lies?" Sounds like the Early Church when it decided to turn to Amillennialism, denying a future Kingdom will include the Jewish nation?

I believe Israel was given by God as a model for all nations wishing to be a "Nation of God." Christian nations have gone down the same apostate path that Israel went down. But Israel's survival is also an example of God's grace, which can be shown to all backslidden formerly Christian nations.

You seem to have ignored the part where God said Israel would be completely destroyed and then resurrected through adoption. Which... happened.

I haven't ignored anything. But whatever you're saying here doesn't seem to be supported in Scripture? Israel has obviously not been completely destroyed. And a nation born of faith does not need to be "adopted." Jews are the natural heirs of faith if they would, as individuals and as a nation, accept it.