Is heaven only for Christians? - That's convenient

[St. SteVen]

I read this and my first thought was "would Jesus see it this way?" Maybe Eph 4:4-6... would suggest not.

Are you promoting Catholicism as the "one faith"?

Faith vs. "the Faith" - Which one was once delivered?

- What's the difference between faith and "the Faith"? - What faith was once delivered/entrusted to us? - Was it faith, or "the Faith"? - Is faith from God? - Is "the Faith" man-made? Jude 3 KJV Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me...

www.christianityboard.com

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[Aunty Jane]

what muddies the waters are all of the mindless, individual interpretations of Scripture. THIS is why we have tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines - yet ALL claim to have been “led” to this confusion by the Holy Spirit.

Scripture warns about this:
2 Pet. 1:20
Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

How do you know that YOU have the “correct” interpretation?

Jesus taught us that we would know his true disciples by their “fruits”...that is, what kind of people they are collectively....globally. As he said, “a good tree does not produce worthless fruit, nor does a worthless tree produce good fruit”....so it’s the fruitage overall, not whether there are good and bad fruits on the one tree.

A small excursion into history is enough to see what kinds of “fruitage” your church has produced over the centuries of its existence. Way more bad than good...no one can contest that.

In John’s Revelation, when he was transported to “the Lord’s day”, he was taken into the future to our day...”the time of the end”, prophesied by Daniel. John was shown many signs to indicate the things that we, living at this juncture in history, would be experiencing. His Revelation is prefigured in Daniel’s prophesies.

Does your church teach that we are living in “the time of the end”? Is it preparing its members for the greatest tribulation in mankind’s history? (Matt 24:21-22) It is looming as we speak.

Does it teach its members to be “no part of the world” (John 18:36) or has it always been “in bed” with God’s enemies?...supporting the bloodshed of political conflicts and salving the consciences of those who are taught that it is their patriotic duty to kill their enemies......yet what happens when ones enemies are also their Christian brothers in an opposing nation? Whose side does God take? (Isa 1:15; 1 John 4:20-21)

“Babylon the great” is identified in Revelation as a harlot and as the mother of other harlots who took their mother’s dirty laundry with them when they left home to establish their own houses of ill repute. What church in Christendom does not have at its foundations, the basic tenets of Catholic teachings? All of which come straight out of ancient Babylon....the worship of multiple gods, hellfire, and immortality of the soul....the more outrageous teachings such as mother goddess worship grafted over the Virgin Mary, the notion of purgatory, infant baptism, idol worship, and receiving absolution from a priest who is also a sinner, by repeating certain words as penance.....where else would these notions come from, because none of them come from the Scriptures.

The Church doesn’t practice “mindless” ritual – NOR was the Early Church “ritual-Free”. There is not a culture in the history of the world that is/was non-ritual. Protestants also engage in rituals . . .

Yes you are correct, “There is not a culture in the history of the world that is/was non-ritual”.
But there is ritual with a Scriptural purpose, and ritual for the sake of ritual....mindless performance.

It’s in human nature to worship, and satan knows it...that is why he created religious systems of worship in the world over which he had been given dominion, to perpetuate empty religious practices that are simply the repetition of words or the empty practice of rituals that the people are told have religious significance.
In all the different religious practices found in the world, we find everything from the fanatical to the shallow pretence of a religion in name only....but almost all of them hold to the same foundational beliefs as Christendom does.

So what does God require of those who claim to be disciples of Jesus?
First of all he requires unity. (1 Cor 1:10) Do we see unity in Christendom?...or even among the wold’s Catholics?

God requires obedience to the teachings of his son, which means “loving our enemies”, not giving ourselves patriotic excuses to disobey his command. (Matt 5:43-45) It means not supporting political parties or leaders as they battle for the loyalty of their human constituents, raking up millions of dollars that could be better spent. None of them can carry out their empty promises anyway. Note that “all the kingdoms of the world” were handed over to the devil to prove his claims to be the better god and ruler of mankind. (Luke 4:5-7) That’s why we can let the world do what it wants....God knows what he is doing, and he doesn’t need us to save a world that he is going to destroy....

 

[St. SteVen]

New topic:

Inspired or inspiring? - The case for biblical inerrancy and inspiration.

What are the best arguments for biblical inerrancy and inspiration? I'm guessing that there is less support for biblical inerrancy than for biblical inspiration. Let's discuss...

www.christianityboard.com

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[BreadOfLife]

Really?????

You have a list?
By that I mean "a real list"

The answer should be obvious. A medical specialist isn’t going to dispense with the truth in another area of medicine just because they know a lot about ONE thing. The rest of the truth cannot be tossed aside.
Besides – that kind of theological “specialist” would be in danger of knowing more and more about less and less - until they know everything about nothing . . .

When you account for the major and minor denominations, their many splinter groups, the thousands of “’on-denominational” sects – it is estimated that there are some 45,000 worldwide. Granted, this is a liberal accounting. But, even if there are TWO – that’s too many.

John 17:20-23
“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that ALL of them may be ONE, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be ONE as we are ONE —I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Christ’s Church is ONE – not many . . .

 

[Triumph1300]

Heaven is only for the Pope's Roman Catholics?
All Protestants are doomed?

 

[Triumph1300]

it is estimated that there are some 45,000 worldwide

Estimated by WHO?
The Pope???

 

[Triumph1300]

Granted, this is a liberal accounting. But, even if there are TWO – that’s too many.

Only one reply will do:

"Get behind me, satan!"

 

[BreadOfLife]

Jesus taught us that we would know his true disciples by their “fruits”...that is, what kind of people they are collectively....globally. As he said, “a good tree does not produce worthless fruit, nor does a worthless tree produce good fruit”....so it’s the fruitage overall, not whether there are good and bad fruits on the one tree.

A small excursion into history is enough to see what kinds of “fruitage” your church has produced over the centuries of its existence. Way more bad than good...no one can contest that.

In John’s Revelation, when he was transported to “the Lord’s day”, he was taken into the future to our day...”the time of the end”, prophesied by Daniel. John was shown many signs to indicate the things that we, living at this juncture in history, would be experiencing. His Revelation is prefigured in Daniel’s prophesies. blah, bla, blah . . .

You are purposely DODGING the question by deflecting onto the Catholic Church.

I didn’t ask you to debunk MY beliefs – especially since you got MOST of it wrong anyway. I asked you the following question about the thousands of personal interpretations among non-Catholics:
How do you know that YOU have the “correct” interpretation?

Millions of other have thousands of different interpretations – yet they ALL claim to have been led to this “truth” by the Hoy Spirit.
Is the Holy Spirit a LIAR – or just confused?

“Babylon the great” is identified in Revelation as a harlot and as the mother of other harlots who took their mother’s dirty laundry with them when they left home to establish their own houses of ill repute. What church in Christendom does not have at its foundations, the basic tenets of Catholic teachings? All of which come straight out of ancient Babylon....the worship of multiple gods, hellfire, and immortality of the soul....the more outrageous teachings such as mother goddess worship grafted over the Virgin Mary, the notion of purgatory, infant baptism, idol worship, and receiving absolution from a priest who is also a sinner, by repeating certain words as penance.....where else would these notions come from, because none of them come from the Scriptures.

If you actually studied your Bible you would know that Babylon the Great Harlot more closely resembles apostate Jerusalem:

1. She "sits on 7 HILLS" (Rev. 17:9)
- Vatican Hill is NOT one of the 7 hills of Rome: Aventine Hill, Caelian Hill, Capitoline Hill, Esquiline Hill, Palatine Hill, Quirinal Hill, Viminal Hill
- Jerusalem DOES sit on 7 hills: Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet, Mount of Corruption, Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built

2. She is called "The Great City" (Rev. 17:18)
- Jerusalem is called the "Great City" - “where also their Lord was crucified” (Rev. 11:8).

3. She is "Drunk on the blood of God's Holy people" (Rev 17:6)
- Not ONLY did Jerusalem kill the prophets (Matt. 23:37, Luke 13:34) - she persecuted the Early Church (Gal. 4:9, 2 Cor 11:23-26).

4. "Jerusalem is the "Faithful City" has become a Whore.
- Isaiah 1:21 laments, "How the FAITHFUL CITY HAS BECOME A WHORE, she who was full of justice! Righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers."

We read that the “ten horns” and the beast will hate the prostitute. “They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire” (Rev. 17:16).

What happened in 70 AD?
Rome destroyed Jerusalem - and the Temple.

Yes you are correct, “There is not a culture in the history of the world that is/was non-ritual”.
But there is ritual with a Scriptural purpose, and ritual for the sake of ritual....mindless performance.

REALLYY??

Can you show me where the NT Christians engaged in “Infant dedications” or “Altar calls” or practiced Sola Scriptura??

So what does God require of those who claim to be disciples of Jesus?
First of all he requires unity. (1 Cor 1:10) Do we see unity in Christendom?...or even among the wold’s Catholics?

Absolutely NOT. As I stated before – there are THOUSANDS of perpetually-splintering sects who ALL claim to have the “truth”.

For crying out loud – just look at the posts on this forum . . .

God requires obedience to the teachings of his son, which means “loving our enemies”, not giving ourselves patriotic excuses to disobey his command. (Matt 5:43-45) It means not supporting political parties or leaders as they battle for the loyalty of their human constituents, raking up millions of dollars that could be better spent. None of them can carry out their empty promises anyway. Note that “all the kingdoms of the world” were handed over to the devil to prove his claims to be the better god and ruler of mankind. (Luke 4:5-7) That’s why we can let the world do what it wants....God knows what he is doing, and he doesn’t need us to save a world that he is going to destroy....

And His Son did NOT proclaim that Scriptures were our SOLE Authority.

On the contrary – He proclaimed that the CHURCH was our final earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

Matt. 16:18-19; 18:18
“Amen, I say to you, whatwever YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatwever YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

 

[Jack]

Jesus taught us that we would know his true disciples by their “fruits”...that is, what kind of people they are collectively....globally. As he said, “a good tree does not produce worthless fruit, nor does a worthless tree produce good fruit”....so it’s the fruitage overall, not whether there are good and bad fruits on the one tree.

A small excursion into history is enough to see what kinds of “fruitage” your church has produced over the centuries of its existence. Way more bad than good...no one can contest that.

In John’s Revelation, when he was transported to “the Lord’s day”, he was taken into the future to our day...”the time of the end”, prophesied by Daniel. John was shown many signs to indicate the things that we, living at this juncture in history, would be experiencing. His Revelation is prefigured in Daniel’s prophesies.

Does your church teach that we are living in “the time of the end”? Is it preparing its members for the greatest tribulation in mankind’s history? (Matt 24:21-22) It is looming as we speak.

Does it teach its members to be “no part of the world” (John 18:36) or has it always been “in bed” with God’s enemies?...supporting the bloodshed of political conflicts and salving the consciences of those who are taught that it is their patriotic duty to kill their enemies......yet what happens when ones enemies are also their Christian brothers in an opposing nation? Whose side does God take? (Isa 1:15; 1 John 4:20-21)

“Babylon the great” is identified in Revelation as a harlot and as the mother of other harlots who took their mother’s dirty laundry with them when they left home to establish their own houses of ill repute. What church in Christendom does not have at its foundations, the basic tenets of Catholic teachings? All of which come straight out of ancient Babylon....the worship of multiple gods, hellfire, and immortality of the soul....the more outrageous teachings such as mother goddess worship grafted over the Virgin Mary, the notion of purgatory, infant baptism, idol worship, and receiving absolution from a priest who is also a sinner, by repeating certain words as penance.....where else would these notions come from, because none of them come from the Scriptures.

Yes you are correct, “There is not a culture in the history of the world that is/was non-ritual”.
But there is ritual with a Scriptural purpose, and ritual for the sake of ritual....mindless performance.

It’s in human nature to worship, and satan knows it...that is why he created religious systems of worship in the world over which he had been given dominion, to perpetuate empty religious practices that are simply the repetition of words or the empty practice of rituals that the people are told have religious significance.
In all the different religious practices found in the world, we find everything from the fanatical to the shallow pretence of a religion in name only....but almost all of them hold to the same foundational beliefs as Christendom does.

So what does God require of those who claim to be disciples of Jesus?
First of all he requires unity. (1 Cor 1:10) Do we see unity in Christendom?...or even among the wold’s Catholics?

God requires obedience to the teachings of his son, which means “loving our enemies”, not giving ourselves patriotic excuses to disobey his command. (Matt 5:43-45) It means not supporting political parties or leaders as they battle for the loyalty of their human constituents, raking up millions of dollars that could be better spent. None of them can carry out their empty promises anyway. Note that “all the kingdoms of the world” were handed over to the devil to prove his claims to be the better god and ruler of mankind. (Luke 4:5-7) That’s why we can let the world do what it wants....God knows what he is doing, and he doesn’t need us to save a world that he is going to destroy....

Aunty rejects nearly all the Christian Bible. She worships the god of Kingdom Hall!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Only one reply will do:

"Get behind me, satan!"

Thanks for another non-response . . .

Estimated by WHO?
The Pope???

To name a few - the following sources state that there are anywhere from 33,000 to 45,000 Protestant denominations:

- World Christian Encyclopedia: A Comparative Survey of Churches and Religions in the Modern World, by David B. Barrett, 1982, Oxford University Press.

- Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary

- Christianwebsite

- Bibleanalysis

 

[BreadOfLife]

Heaven is only for the Pope's Roman Catholics?
All Protestants are doomed?

Nope. The Catholic Church does NOT teach this fallacy.
This is yet another anti-Catholic invention . . .

 

[Triumph1300]

Thanks for another non-response . . .

Oh, you missed it and you decided to post something sarcastic.
Ok , got it.

 

[Triumph1300]

Aunty rejects nearly all the Christian Bible. She worships the god of Kingdom Hall!

same level as the RC Church you mean? Or what?

 

[Behold]

Does God make sport with our souls?

Wait till you meet Him, and you can ask The Almighty some more of your God insulting and ignorant questions.
He has an answer for you, already.
Hebrews 9:27 is going to help you get them, sooner then you anticipated.
Believe it. @St. SteVen

 

[Hiddenthings]

Are you promoting Catholicism as the "one faith"?

Faith vs. "the Faith" - Which one was once delivered?

- What's the difference between faith and "the Faith"? - What faith was once delivered/entrusted to us? - Was it faith, or "the Faith"? - Is faith from God? - Is "the Faith" man-made? Jude 3 KJV Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me...

www.christianityboard.com

[

No.

 

[Hiddenthings]

If that's what you got out of my last post - then, you're either kidding or just dishonest . . .

The way you interpret the symbols of bread and wine must be consistent with how you interpret other things Christ is said to be.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You are purposely DODGING the question by deflecting onto the Catholic Church.

Well, everything about salvation depends on the truth of what we believe....or have been led to believe.
Just because we have been led to believe something, doesn’t make it true.

I didn’t ask you to debunk MY beliefs – especially since you got MOST of it wrong anyway. I asked you the following question about the thousands of personal interpretations among non-Catholics:
How do you know that YOU have the “correct” interpretation?

That is just the beauty of it.....none of us will know until the end, when the hammer falls and judgment has been made on the basis of what we have chosen as our truth, and how we have applied Jesus’ teachings in our lives. We will all be caught in the act of being ourselves...the one God sees...not necessarily the person we believe ourselves to be.

And if Jesus is correct, (and we know he cannot be wrong) it is God himself who draws some people to the truth (John 6:44, 65) and leaves others to be ‘deluded’ by the devil in his false religious systems. It is a chosen delusion, so God knows the condition of their hearts, and allows them to keep it. He gives us the identifying characteristics of Christ’s true disciples in a world ruled by the devil, and these will stand out as those who meet the standard.....they will be united in their beliefs. (1Cor 1:10) With love amongst themselves. (John 13:34-35) And be “No part of the world” in its moral standards or conduct. (John 18:36) They will know “the only true God, and the one he sent”. (John 17:3)

Millions of other have thousands of different interpretations – yet they ALL claim to have been led to this “truth” by the Hoy Spirit.
Is the Holy Spirit a LIAR – or just confused?

The Holy Spirit does not speak with a forked tongue.....it’s the other fellow who does that.
Disunity among professed Christians is a red flag, especially divisions within one denomination and in Christendom as a whole. Jesus said there would be “wheat” and “weeds” growing in the same “field”, that he said was “the world”. At the time of “the harvest”, there would be no similarity between them.....They will not resemble each other at all since the features that identify the “wheat” are not found in the “weeds”.

If you actually studied your Bible you would know that Babylon the Great Harlot more closely resembles apostate Jerusalem:

If you recall, the Revelation, which is the only Book that mentions a “greater Babylon”, was written after the destruction of Jerusalem and was about a future time....”the Lord’s day”....the features of which Jesus spoke about prior to the desolating of Jerusalem. It is a dual prophesy, with its first fulfilment on apostate Jerusalem, almost 40 years after Christ’s death, and a second fulfilment in the future when he was to return.
Do Catholic people accept that Christ has to return as he promised? And if so, how was he to do that?
I have hardly heard any Catholic person mention it.

Can you show me where the NT Christians engaged in “Infant dedications” or “Altar calls” or practiced Sola Scriptura??

The first two is “never”....and the last one is a no brainer. “All Scripture is inspired of God” which is a statement that no Christian can argue with....but it’s what Scripture was given for that tells the importance of it....“All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in uprightness, so that the man of God may be proficient and equipped for good work of every kind.” (2 Tim 3:16-17 NCB)

That is the purpose of Scripture. What more could we need?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Absolutely NOT. As I stated before – there are THOUSANDS of perpetually-splintering sects who ALL claim to have the “truth”.

For crying out loud – just look at the posts on this forum . . .

Jesus tells us that the majority of those who claim him as their “Lord” will be rejected as those he “never knew”...these are the “weeds” or “goats”.
Only “few” will be found on the road to life. If you are part of a majority, then you are on the wrong road. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23)

And His Son did NOT proclaim that Scriptures were our SOLE Authority.

Jesus was the sole authority as the one sent by his Father, and he bestowed no authority on anyone else to teach anything different. The apostles taught what Christ taught them....and the Bible writers, being inspired to write as God’s spirit directed them, included all we need to know in order to gain salvation. This amazing book, available to all in this time of the end, takes us a thousands years into the future.....what need was there to add anything?
Revelation was the last book of the Bible, and the warning was given not to add or to subtract anything from what was written. (Rev 22:18-19);

On the contrary – He proclaimed that the CHURCH was our final earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

Matt. 16:18-19; 18:18
“Amen, I say to you, whatwever YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatwever YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

I guess that begs the question....who or what is “the church”?

Can I ask you who Jesus was addressing in Matt 18:18? Read verse 1, then 18, then 21...
It appears that Jesus’ instruction was also given to all the disciples....not just Peter.

Jesus gave Peter “the keys of the Kingdom of the heavens.”, which means that Peter received the assignment to unlock information about how faithful people, by receiving God’s holy spirit, could enjoy the privilege of entering the Kingdom in heaven. The keys unlocked a figurative door allowing others to gain entry into God’s kingdom.
First to Jews and Jewish converts, then to the Samaritans, and finally, to gentiles.

 

[Jack]

same level as the RC Church you mean? Or what?

Much worse than Catholics!

 

[Jack]

Jesus tells us that the majority of those who claim him as their “Lord” will be rejected as those he “never knew”...these are the “weeds” or “goats”.

Yeah, MILLIONS of JW's!