The coming of the Lord ushers in the end

[WPM]

This sin-cursed world, this fallen state, the curse, are not going to go on forever. They have a shared expiration date. Sin and sinners, dying and crying, the curse and corruption, disease and decay, the devil and his demons, will all be brought to a sudden conclusion together. This will also bring a closure to time. This all occurs at the climatic return of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the moment when everything is brought to a sudden glorious climax.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18: “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”

Jesus here indeed connects the passing away of heaven and earth with the fulfilment of all the prophecies of the Messiah made by Moses and the prophets. This supports the Amil position which holds that the heavens and earth pass away at the second coming when Jesus comes.

Jesus says of His coming in Matthew 24:35-44: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

The removal of the current heaven and earth is here connected to the coming of the Lord. After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

1 Corinthians 15:12-14, 21-24, asking, “how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain…But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

The “coming” of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates believers from unbelievers, each experiences diverse fates. One is delivered up, the other is eternally put down. This is the final division of righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

 

[WPM]

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Please see here: “the coming of the Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same climactic day. This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.” There is no suggestion of survivors. None are in the passage.

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this clearer: “they shall not escape.” This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

If the day of the Lord here relates to a third coming, as most Pretribbers argue, and they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, then why is this describing the wicked, who are experiencing the 7 years tribulation, as declaring “Peace and safety”? Surely this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-12, 2:1-7 shows that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs at “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” It states: “And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed [Gr. apokalupsis] from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our ‘gathering together’ [Gr. episunagoge– originating from episunago] unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ [rendered “the day of the Lord” elsewhere in the New Testament] is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth (or restraineth) that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (or restraineth) will let, until he be taken ‘out of the way’ [Gr. ek mesos]. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming [Gr. parousia].”

Once again “the coming of our Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same concluding day of time. Paul is encouraging the Church here to remain strong and steadfast as they await the coming of the day of the Lord. This day, that comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night, will catch the wicked unprepared. He tells the Thessalonians not to be “soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us.” This would suggest that there would be times of trial and tribulation to endure before this great climactic event. What is more, it is an approaching event that the Church was to prepare for, because: “the day of the Lord is at hand (or enistemi meaning impending).”

We should carefully note that this is the time when the Church is gathered unto the Lord. The coming (parousia) of the Lord witnesses the gathering of the saints – dead and alive. The dead in Christ are resurrected; the alive in Christ are caught up. The phrase “gathering together” is taken from the Greek word episunagoge proving that the Church isn't raptured until the one final coming of Christ at the day of the Lord.

This is sudden, climactic and totally destructive. It sees God rescuing His elect and destroying the wicked.

 

[WPM]

2 Peter 3:3-13 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

There is nothing ambiguous about this passage. It is a clear literal straightforward passage that is devoid of the much symbolism that attends the detail of Revelation.

How can anyone survive this? They cannot! It's impossible! Well, the second coming is the end for the wicked, the righteous inherit the new heavens and new earth; not some suppose future thousand years that is polluted by sin, sinners, Satan, death and ongoing corruption. The appearing of Christ spells the end for all unrighteousness. Anything that is not glorified is consumed. Peter demonstrates here that when Jesus comes back the heavens, earth and all that is on the earth, and the elements are going to dissolve. His glory and unchallenged reign will be set up on the new renewed earth.

 

[Marty fox]

Yes all true I fully agree but what will trigger that day?

 

[WPM]

Yes all true I fully agree but what will trigger that day?

Tell us your thoughts.

 

[Marty fox]

Tell us your thoughts.

Sorry not meaning to divert your OP but to see why and when God will destroy the world with fire we need to look to the bible and see why and when God destroyed the world with the flood.

It happened back in Noah’s day not because the world was so evil it alway has been and always will be evil, it happened because the faithful came down to just one man Noah and the faithful line would of ended when Noah died.

Theres a lot to be seen about end times in Genesis chapters 4,5 and 6.

 

[WPM]

Sorry not meaning to divert your OP but to see why and when God will destroy the world with fire we need to look to the bible and see why and when God destroyed the world with the flood.

It happened back in Noah’s day not because the world was so evil it alway has been and always will be evil, it happened because the faithful came down to just one man Noah and the faithful line would of ended when Noah died.

Theres a lot to be seen about end times in Genesis chapters 4,5 and 6.

I think it was both:

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

 

[grafted branch]

I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Jesus here indeed connects the passing away of heaven and earth with the fulfilment of all the prophecies of the Messiah made by Moses and the prophets. This supports the Amil position which holds that the heavens and earth pass away at the second coming when Jesus comes.

We know His words will never pass away, the actual words exist forever. When it says till heaven and earth pass away not one jot or tittle shall pass till all be fulfilled, it can’t be talking about the words themselves passing away.

Since your position is that heaven and earth haven’t passed away yet are you under the assumption that every single jot and tittle has not passed away yet? Are they all still valid and need to be followed?

 

[MatthewG]

SIn was taken care of... by Jesus Christ on the cross, and his resurrection justified what he had done for the world.

... I don't get why people hate it so much, ... in all honesty. It's rough don't get me wrong, but Jesus took care of the sin...

Paul wrote concerning a rumor in his day in age to his audience about a rumor that the lord had already came, but the thing is he corrected the rumor by telling them the truth.

The truth was it was not that time yet, but that great and dreadful day of the LORD did come in 70Ad...

With everything Yeshua spoke about coming through, but many people hate "fulfilment."

Probably because they wont be able to use "Jesus coming back as their excuse to do the things they may have done or do" or whatever.

 

[Marty fox]

I think it was both:

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Yes but what was the reason that the earth turned that way?

Genesis 6:1-4
when human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

The reason was that the faithful men lost their way and conformed to the ways of the world and inter married with the unfaithful women and the faithful came down to just one man Noah and it would of ended with him

 

[WPM]

We know His words will never pass away, the actual words exist forever. When it says till heaven and earth pass away not one jot or tittle shall pass till all be fulfilled, it can’t be talking about the words themselves passing away.

Since your position is that heaven and earth haven’t passed away yet are you under the assumption that every single jot and tittle has not passed away yet? Are they all still valid and need to be followed?

Yes! The Law is still active and valid. But, all it can do is condemn. It exposes sin and points man to Christ.

Some Christians are under the false impression that the Law of God is bad. It is not! In fact, Romans 7:12 tells us: “the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Romans 7: 14: “the law is spiritual.”

The fact is, there had to be a divine standard or measuring stick to expose the depravity of the natural man. Without it, man is deceived into thinking right is wrong and wrong is right. Also, he has no natural ability to know he is offending God.

Paul says in Romans 3:20, “for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The problem with the Law of God was, and is: it couldn’t save anyone and it couldn’t remove one single sin. In fact, the only thing it could do was show man his wretched state!

Romans 7:13: Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.”

The Law was really just a mirror to look into to show us exactly who we are. It could not rescue us from our miserable state. But it did give us an accurate revelation of the type of person we actually are. A mirror is good, it is beneficial, but we do not always appreciate what we see.

The believer is not under the law, just the unbeliever. 1 Timothy 1:8-10: “the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane …”

Galatians 3:10-11 tells us: "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith."

If people are not found in Christ then they are under the law and therefore condemned. Sinful man is condemned by the law. It is man's schoolmaster.

Galatians 3:22-29 confirms: “the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”

Whilst the law is still holy, good and moral, its prime purpose for the believer is that it points them to Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:16 declares, “a man is not justified by the works of the law.”

Why? Because Christ fulfilled the law on our behalf. That is where our salvation kicks in. We now operate on the merits of His imputed righteousness.

 

[grafted branch]

Yes! The Law is still active and valid. But, all it can do is condemn. It exposes sin and points man to Christ.

Some Christians are under the false impression that the Law of God is bad. It is not! In fact, Romans 7:12 tells us: “the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Romans 7: 14: “the law is spiritual.”

The fact is, there had to be a divine standard or measuring stick to expose the depravity of the natural man. Without it, man is deceived into thinking right is wrong and wrong is right. Also, he has no natural ability to know he is offending God.

Paul says in Romans 3:20, “for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The problem with the Law of God was, and is: it couldn’t save anyone and it couldn’t remove one single sin. In fact, the only thing it could do was show man his wretched state!

Romans 7:13: Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.”

The Law was really just a mirror to look into to show us exactly who we are. It could not rescue us from our miserable state. But it did give us an accurate revelation of the type of person we actually are. A mirror is good, it is beneficial, but we do not always appreciate what we see.

The believer is not under the law, just the unbeliever. 1 Timothy 1:8-10: “the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane …”

Galatians 3:10-11 tells us: "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith."

If people are not found in Christ then they are under the law and therefore condemned. Sinful man is condemned by the law. It is man's schoolmaster.

Galatians 3:22-29 confirms: “the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”

Whilst the law is still holy, good and moral, its prime purpose for the believer is that it points them to Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:16 declares, “a man is not justified by the works of the law.”

Why? Because Christ fulfilled the law on our behalf. That is where our salvation kicks in. We now operate on the merits of His imputed righteousness.

Ok, very good, I agree with your post. What about animal sacrifices and the rules pertaining to that? Would you consider those rules not being part of the law? It would seem that the jot and tittle pertaining to those animal sacrifices has passed, as they were fulfilled in Christ.

 

[WPM]

Ok, very good, I agree with your post. What about animal sacrifices and the rules pertaining to that? Would you consider those rules not being part of the law? It would seem that the jot and tittle pertaining to those animal sacrifices has passed, as they were fulfilled in Christ.

The moral law points the sinner to Christ. It is still active. The ceremonial law pointed man to the cross. It has been abolished through the death of Christ and the introduction of the new covenant.

Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It makes clear: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” Hebrews 10:2 confirms they “ceased to be offered?

 

[grafted branch]

The moral law points the sinner to Christ. It is still active. The ceremonial law pointed man to the cross. It has been abolished through the death of Christ and the introduction of the new covenant.

Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It makes clear: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” Hebrews 10:2 confirms they “ceased to be offered?

Ok, I agree, the moral law is still active and is something we should attempt to adhere to. The ceremonial law is inactive and is not something we should adhere to as it was fulfilled in Christ.

Back to Matthew 5:18, are you interpreting this verse as one jot and tittle of the moral law only, while the jot and tittle of the ceremonial law has passed?

 

[WPM]

Ok, I agree, the moral law is still active and is something we should attempt to adhere to. The ceremonial law is inactive and is not something we should adhere to as it was fulfilled in Christ.

Back to Matthew 5:18, are you interpreting this verse as one jot and tittle of the moral law only, while the jot and tittle of the ceremonial law has passed?

Moral law

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes all true I fully agree but what will trigger that day?

According to 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 there must first be a mass falling away from the faith before the day that Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night which would coincide with wickedness no longer being restrained. So, that day that Jesus comes to take vengeance on all of His enemies (Matt 24:35-39, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12) will be triggered by God saying enough is enough in terms of the amount of wickedness happening on the earth and He will then send His Son Jesus Christ to put an end to it once and for all.

 

[Marty fox]

According to 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 there must first be a mass falling away from the faith before the day that Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night which would coincide with wickedness no longer being restrained. So, that day that Jesus comes to take vengeance on all of His enemies (Matt 24:35-39, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12) will be triggered by God saying enough is enough in terms of the amount of wickedness happening on the earth and He will then send His Son Jesus Christ to put an end to it once and for all.

Okay sure makes sense but what would trigger the wickedness no longer being restrained?

 

[Marty fox]

Yes but what was the reason that the earth turned that way?

Genesis 6:1-4
when human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

The reason was that the faithful men lost their way and conformed to the ways of the world and inter married with the unfaithful women and the faithful came down to just one man Noah and it would of ended with him

Hello again WMP, did this make sense to you?

 

[WPM]

Yes but what was the reason that the earth turned that way?

Genesis 6:1-4
when human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

The reason was that the faithful men lost their way and conformed to the ways of the world and inter married with the unfaithful women and the faithful came down to just one man Noah and it would of ended with him

I don't see that stated as the reason anywhere. Can you give me a direct quote that says what you say?

 

[Marty fox]

I don't see that stated as the reason anywhere. Can you give me a direct quote that says what you say?

Verses 1-4 shows that the sons of God intermarried with the daughters of men only because they were beautiful and that they also had multiple marriages. This is showing that the reason that the sons of God conformed to the unfaithful daughters of men was lust. This is the reason that the faithful dwindled down to just one man Noah