In Daniel 8, 11, and 12, is A4E meant? Or is a future anti-christ meant?

[covenantee]

The same should be true for verse 27. None of it is meaning outside of the 70th week.

" for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

All of that is outside of the 70th week, and for essential reason, because the events of 70 AD are inextricably linked to the events within the 70th week. Specifically, the rejection and apostasy of Israel against the provisions for her New Covenant salvation and blessings by Messiah at Calvary, resulted in the consummation and desolation which befell her in 70 AD.

It would be inappropriate for the events outside of the 70th week to not be included in conjunction with the events inside of the 70th week.

 

[Earburner]

Sorry, I'm unable to replicate your conclusion.

Where do I "believe that the "pouring" out of the Holy Spirit ended at the same time of the consummation in 70AD"?

Recall that I previously also affirmed a final fiery consummation.

Dan. 9:27 reveals that God will NOT allow two events to come to pass during His present Age of Grace (the symbolic one thousand years):
1. The rebuilding of the temple in Israel.
2. His stopping of the pouring out of His Holy Spirit to repentant believers in Jesus.

.....he [Jesus] shall make it [the temple] desolate [destroyed], even until [upto] the consummation, and that determined [verse 24] shall be poured upon the desolate [repentant unsaved].

The fact is there is only ONE mention of ONE consummation in the bible. Once it is fulfilled, there is no other consummation to take place again. Therefore, if "the consummation" took place in 70AD., as you say, then 2 Peter ch. 3 cannot happen, and God's pouring out of His Holy Spirit was also stopped.

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
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The expression in red just means until the completion of the week (7 years).

The verse is saying that once the person stops the temple sacrifices there will be abominations take place there at the temple, that will cause the temple to remain desolate from the praise and worship of the One True God.... until the completion of the week (7 years).

Then at the completion of the week (7 years), the abominations at the temple that God will pour His wrath out on will be the beast-king, the false prophet, and the statue image of the beast-king, in-dwelled by Satan.

 

[Earburner]

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The expression in red just means until the completion of the week (7 years).

The verse is saying that once the person stops the temple sacrifices there will be abominations take place there at the temple, that will cause the temple to remain desolate from the praise and worship of the One True God.... until the completion of the week (7 years).

Then at the completion of the week (7 years), the abominations at the temple that God will pour His wrath out on will be the beast-king, the false prophet, and the statue image of the beast-king, in-dwelled by Satan.




View attachment 68061

You may not know this, but you have been given your understanding according to the Scofield rendition of the 70 weeks, that has taken an "upperseat" within the fundamentalist churches since the 1960s.

C. I. Scofield - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Davidpt]

(Getting back to the topic of this thread.)

For all that you have studied of Daniel and 1&2 Maccabees, it truly is sad that you missed the boat, by NOT agreeing that Antiochus lV Epiphanes (A4E) is/was the ONLY "little horn" that shall ever be.

Too bad you and some others in this thread can't read the text correctly in regards to Daniel 8: 9-14, 23.25. Because if you could read the text correctly you would not then be having A4E fulfilling those verses, something impossible for him to have fulfilled to begin with. In Daniel 8, verse 26, not all of it is pertaining to everything recorded in Daniel 8, it is only pertaining to verses 9-14, 23-25, those verses being what is reserved for the time of end. It is absurd beyond belief that the days of A4E involved the time of the end. That is laughable that the time of the end occurred during the days of A4E and that the time of the end occurred while the vision was still shut up(verse 26--wherefore shut thou up the vision) and that it even occurred before Christ was born first.

You are the one buying into things here not me. You are the one getting your theology from others apparently, such as past Commentators, not me. Obviously, you and others have been brainwashed to believe what you believe in regards to Daniel 8:9-14, 23-15, not me. And the funny thing about being brainwashed, anyone being brainwashed are always the last ppl to know they are being brainwashed. No one brainwashed me in regards to Daniel 8:9-14, 23-25 though, since I never consulted past Commentators, authors of books, so on and so on, to begin with, before I decided how to interpret some of Daniel 8 on my own, mainly meaning verses 9-14, 23-25 in this case, from my own readings of the texts involved. Therefore, if I am wrong about any of these things I can't blame it on no one but myself.

Apparently you also have bought into the Scofield fiasco of booting Jesus out of the 70th week, and then transplanting that week far out into the future of 2000+ years, thus giving it to a fictitious, "no show" person that church-ianity loves to call "THE" Antichrist.
Note: It is "that spirit of antichrist" that is SINGULAR, thus making MANY antichrists in the PLURAL. In all of the KJV and the Catholic Vulgate Bibles, one will never find the words "THE Antichrist".

I will cut you some slack on what you said per this part since you said that before I made it crystal clear per posts after that, that that is not even remotely my view, not even close. Still though, yet another example of someone jumping to the wrong conclusions about something---let's just shoot first and then ask questions later.

 

[covenantee]

The fact is there is only ONE mention of ONE consummation in the bible. Once it is fulfilled, there is no other consummation to take place again. Therefore, if "the consummation" took place in 70AD., as you say, then 2 Peter ch. 3 cannot happen, and God's pouring out of His Holy Spirit was also stopped.

Scripture tells us that the final consummation will be by fire.

2 Thessalonians 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2 Peter 3:12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

But the definition of the consummation in Daniel 9:27 does not include fire.

Therefore, the final consummation by fire is not the same as the consummation in Daniel 9:27.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 and 2 Peter 3:7,12 will happen, and God's pouring out of His Holy Spirit did not stop.

 

[covenantee]

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The expression in red just means until the completion of the week (7 years).

The expression in red was completed in 70 AD.

You've missed another one.

 

[Douggg]

The expression in red was completed in 70 AD.

You've missed another one.

No, the events of Revelation will take place during the 7year 70th week of Daniel 9:27. The consummation of the 70th week will be the day of Jesus's return. The seven years of Daniel 9:27 and Ezekiel 39:9 are on the chart.

 

[covenantee]

No, the events of Revelation will take place during the 7year 70th week of Daniel 9:27. The consummation of the 70th week will be the day of Jesus's return. The seven years of Daniel 9:27 and Ezekiel 39:9 are on the chart.

View attachment 68090

No, your "will take place" took place 2,000 years ago when Messiah the Prince (Daniel 9:25) confirmed His New Covenant in His Blood (Daniel 9:27; Luke 22:20; 1 Corinthians 11:25; Hebrews 8:8,13; 9:15; 12:24) after the 69th week in the midst of the 70th week (Daniel 9:26,27)

Seems you've missed that too.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Let's start with ch 11. This is mainly in regards to those who insist there a gap between verse 35 and 36.

(KON) = king of the north
(KOS) = king of the south
(VP) = vile person in verse 21


Obviously, the vile person meant in verse 21 has to be one of these two kings. Either the KON or the KOS.

Hello David, you did some work here. I will link an Exegesis where I explain every verse in chapters 11 & 12 and who all the players are. Daniel 11 & 12 historically explained step by step. If that doesn't work I can import a bit here and there, my Exegesis took a while. God rewarded my studies by giving me a key I had never seen that unlocks all the TIMELINES, the 1335, 1290 and 1260 holds these keys.

I was also show that the coming False Prophet can only be a Jewish High Priest under the Gentile King, but I did not see this until a year or so after I first did my Exegesis. In verses 21 to 33-34 we see Antiochus Epiphanes (AE4), therein God gives us the Archetype Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beast, but, what I did not see in vs. 22 until later was that a man named Jason bribed AE4 to be named the High Priest, having his real and Pious High Priest brother Onias III killed (see vs. 22). Jason is in 6 or 7 chapters in the book of Maccabees, but I got him by studying history first (when I looked up all the players). Jason's real name was Yeshua, he took the Greek name however. Jason invited AE4 into the temple to sacrifice a pig unto Zeus, he then MANDATED that all Jews become Hellenists (he betrayed his fellow Jews). This led to the Maccabean Wars seen here:

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. (This is where Hanukkah comes from, the Jews had to cleanse the Defiled temple)

32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries:(about hall the Jews were pro Hellenists) but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits(Maccabeans).

33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days(Maccabean War).

This BELOW proves the end rime AC in verses 36-45 CANNOT be the same guy in verses 21-33-34.

28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land. (AE4 returned to his homeland because there was a rumor of his death I am pretty sure, have not looked at my old blog in ages, and in so doing he left Egypt or Alexandria, and thus when he tries to return, SEE BELOW, the Roman Senator showed up to BLOCK him or FORBID him from Conquering Egypt again, that is why he turned in Anger to go into Jerusalem and killed 60 to 90k people. Below is KEY)

29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. (See this? When he tries to return to Egypt he is forbidden by the Roman Sentor who drew a circle around him. Thus THE FORME was the only time AE4 ever conquered Egypt, and THE LATER is talking about the Future Little Horn, it has to be, because AE4 only conquered Egypt one time. God gave us the EXACT LIKENESS of the coming AC/Beast in AE4 he even died on the Eastern Front WITHOUT HANDS or via a virus he caught. He also had a right hand man, a Jewish High Priest who was pro Hellenist. Who betrayed his brother Jews etc. etc. )

30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him(the Roman ships came from Cypress): therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. (Half the Jews were traitors to those who worshiped the one true God. Jason and the Pro Hellenists wanted to take on Greek culture, forsake God Almighty etc. but the Maccabeans rose up, Amen.)

 

[Earburner]

Scripture tells us that the final consummation will be by fire.

2 Thessalonians 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2 Peter 3:12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

But the definition of the consummation in Daniel 9:27 does not include fire.

Therefore, the final consummation by fire is not the same as the consummation in Daniel 9:27.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 and 2 Peter 3:7,12 will happen, and God's pouring out of His Holy Spirit did not stop.

Seriously, there is only ONE "the consummation", and it is by fire as we have both shown and agree.
So, why it is that you want to continue on with fabricating another "consummation" only tells me that you are attempting to hold onto a false belief to give it support.
I was hoping that you could hear the voice of the Holy Spirit on this, but it is evident that at the moment the wisdom of men has had stronger sway.

 

[Earburner]

Too bad you and some others in this thread can't read the text correctly in regards to Daniel 8: 9-14, 23.25. Because if you could read the text correctly you would not then be having A4E fulfilling those verses, something impossible for him to have fulfilled to begin with. In Daniel 8, verse 26, not all of it is pertaining to everything recorded in Daniel 8, it is only pertaining to verses 9-14, 23-25, those verses being what is reserved for the time of end. It is absurd beyond belief that the days of A4E involved the time of the end. That is laughable that the time of the end occurred during the days of A4E and that the time of the end occurred while the vision was still shut up(verse 26--wherefore shut thou up the vision) and that it even occurred before Christ was born first.

You are the one buying into things here not me. You are the one getting your theology from others apparently, such as past Commentators, not me. Obviously, you and others have been brainwashed to believe what you believe in regards to Daniel 8:9-14, 23-15, not me. And the funny thing about being brainwashed, anyone being brainwashed are always the last ppl to know they are being brainwashed. No one brainwashed me in regards to Daniel 8:9-14, 23-25 though, since I never consulted past Commentators, authors of books, so on and so on, to begin with, before I decided how to interpret some of Daniel 8 on my own, mainly meaning verses 9-14, 23-25 in this case, from my own readings of the texts involved. Therefore, if I am wrong about any of these things I can't blame it on no one but myself.



I will cut you some slack on what you said per this part since you said that before I made it crystal clear per posts after that, that that is not even remotely my view, not even close. Still though, yet another example of someone jumping to the wrong conclusions about something---let's just shoot first and then ask questions later.

If you cannot agree with the historical record of 1&2 Maccabees, in conjunction with the prophecy in Daniel about Antiochus lV Epiphanes, being the ONLY "little horn" that shall ever be, then you still have not learned anything about the 2300 days prophecy and Judas Maccabeus, the Captain of the host (army) of Israel.

As for "THE Antichrist" of church-ianity's fabrication (Scofield etc.), none have learned "THAT spirit of antichrist" IS the only agent that is SINGULAR, of which produces MANY antichrists.

As for your understanding of Dan. 8:9-14, 23-25, your interpretation is from a religious point of view, striving to make everything to have hyperspiritual overtones, which is typical of the religionists of church-ianity.

 

[covenantee]

Seriously, there is only ONE "the consummation", and it is by fire as we have both shown and agree.
So, why it is that you want to continue on with fabricating another "consummation" only tells me that you are attempting to hold onto a false belief to give it support.
I was hoping that you could hear the voice of the Holy Spirit on this, but it is evident that at the moment the wisdom of men has had stronger sway.

I've provided the evidence that the Daniel 9:27 consummation is not by fire.

You've provided nothing but denial.

The fallacy and fabrication are yours.

Further evidence:
Daniel's consummation was localized to Jerusalem and Judaea.
The final fiery consummation will be planetary.

You're espousing the Scofield dispensational futurism that you profess to abhor.

 

[Exegesis]

I will put this here for now...

AI Overview - Interpreting Daniel 11:17 in relation to the Maccabean Revolt:

Daniel 11:17 reads, "He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him".

One interpretation of Daniel 11 sees the verses, particularly from verse 16 onwards, as referencing events surrounding the Maccabean Revolt and the persecution of the Jews under Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

The "king of the North" can be understood to represent the Seleucid king, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who reigned from 175-164 BC and brought major conflict to Israel. His intention to "enter with the strength of his whole kingdom" could refer to his repeated incursions into Judea and efforts to assert control over the region.

The phrase "daughter of women," when interpreted as Judea, could symbolize the Jewish nation or the people of Israel as a collective, a common metaphorical representation in the Bible.

In this context Antiochus IV, represented by "he," attempts to control or "corrupt" Judea, symbolized by the "daughter of women", through his actions and decrees aimed at suppressing Jewish religious practices and enforcing Hellenistic culture.

However, the phrase "she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him" implies that Judea, or a significant portion of its people, resisted Antiochus's attempts to corrupt them and sided against him, leading to the Maccabean revolt.

The Maccabean Revolt, a successful uprising of the Jews against the Seleucid Empire, demonstrates the refusal of a significant portion of the Jewish population to yield to Antiochus's will.

In summary, interpreting "daughter of women" as Judea within the context of Daniel 11:17 suggests that Antiochus IV attempted to subjugate and corrupt the Jewish nation, but his efforts were ultimately unsuccessful, as the Jewish people resisted and rose up in the Maccabean Revolt."

 

[Exegesis]

Next verse...

Daniel 11:18 - "After this shall he turn his face unto the isles, and shall take many: but a prince for his own behalf shall cause the reproach offered by him to cease; without his own reproach he shall cause it to turn upon him."

During his second campaign into Egypt, Antiochus IV Epiphanes took the island of Cyprus and various parts of the coastlands. This was viewed as a 'reproach' or insolence by the Roman Republic.

This campaign was a direct response to the Ptolemaic dynasty's attempt to regain control of Coele-Syria and to a rumor of Antiochus's death, which led to a coup attempt in Jerusalem.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes was close to taking Alexandria when an intervention to stop him took place. There was a famous event in which Gaius Popillius Laenas drew a circle in the sand around Antiochus IV Epiphanes, demanding that he withdraw his troops or face consequences. He was not to leave the circle until he gave his answer.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes reluctantly withdrew and was bitter. He then turned this bitterness against Judea, ultimately resulting in the Maccabean Revolt. The reproach of Antiochus IV Epiphanes was consequently turned back onto himself.

 

[Exegesis]

Antiochus IV Epiphanes dies...

Daniel 11:19 - "Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found."

And so it came about that he fell out of his chariot as it was rushing along, and the fall was so hard as to torture every limb of his body. he died at Isfahan in 164 BC.

The verses after this are about Rome and the Little Horn. Augustus and Herod are the major players that lead to the abomination that makes desolate. The verses are a continual historical record.

Daniel's 70 weeks ends in 70AD.

 

[Douggg]

Daniel's 70 weeks ends in 70AD.

What year was the Messiah cutoff ?

Sounds like you have a gap between the Messiah cutoff and 70 AD.

 

[Douggg]

If you cannot agree with the historical record of 1&2 Maccabees, in conjunction with the prophecy in Daniel about Antiochus lV Epiphanes, being the ONLY "little horn" that shall ever be, then you still have not learned anything about the 2300 days prophecy and Judas Maccabeus, the Captain of the host (army) of Israel.

As for "THE Antichrist" of church-ianity's fabrication (Scofield etc.), none have learned "THAT spirit of antichrist" is the only agent that is SINGULAR, of which produces MANY antichrists.

As for your understanding of Dan. 8:9-14, 23-25, your interpretation is from a religious point of view, striving to make everything to have hyperspiritual overtones, which is typical of the religionists of church-ianity.

You don't have any time line charts of the 70 weeks (of years) do you, to show your interpretation of the 70 weeks ?

You just go on and on about Scofield. Well, produce a chart that shows your interpretation of the 70 weeks.

 

[Earburner]

Hello David, you did some work here. I will link an Exegesis where I explain every verse in chapters 11 & 12 and who all the players are. Daniel 11 & 12 historically explained step by step. If that doesn't work I can import a bit here and there, my Exegesis took a while. God rewarded my studies by giving me a key I had never seen that unlocks all the TIMELINES, the 1335, 1290 and 1260 holds these keys.

I was also show that the coming False Prophet can only be a Jewish High Priest under the Gentile King, but I did not see this until a year or so after I first did my Exegesis. In verses 21 to 33-34 we see Antiochus Epiphanes (AE4), therein God gives us the Archetype Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beast, but, what I did not see in vs. 22 until later was that a man named Jason bribed AE4 to be named the High Priest, having his real and Pious High Priest brother Onias III killed (see vs. 22). Jason is in 6 or 7 chapters in the book of Maccabees, but I got him by studying history first (when I looked up all the players). Jason's real name was Yeshua, he took the Greek name however. Jason invited AE4 into the temple to sacrifice a pig unto Zeus, he then MANDATED that all Jews become Hellenists (he betrayed his fellow Jews). This led to the Maccabean Wars seen here:

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. (This is where Hanukkah comes from, the Jews had to cleanse the Defiled temple)

32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries:(about hall the Jews were pro Hellenists) but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits(Maccabeans).

33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days(Maccabean War).

This BELOW proves the end rime AC in verses 36-45 CANNOT be the same guy in verses 21-33-34.

28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land. (AE4 returned to his homeland because there was a rumor of his death I am pretty sure, have not looked at my old blog in ages, and in so doing he left Egypt or Alexandria, and thus when he tries to return, SEE BELOW, the Roman Senator showed up to BLOCK him or FORBID him from Conquering Egypt again, that is why he turned in Anger to go into Jerusalem and killed 60 to 90k people. Below is KEY)

29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. (See this? When he tries to return to Egypt he is forbidden by the Roman Sentor who drew a circle around him. Thus THE FORME was the only time AE4 ever conquered Egypt, and THE LATER is talking about the Future Little Horn, it has to be, because AE4 only conquered Egypt one time. God gave us the EXACT LIKENESS of the coming AC/Beast in AE4 he even died on the Eastern Front WITHOUT HANDS or via a virus he caught. He also had a right hand man, a Jewish High Priest who was pro Hellenist. Who betrayed his brother Jews etc. etc. )

30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him(the Roman ships came from Cypress): therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. (Half the Jews were traitors to those who worshiped the one true God. Jason and the Pro Hellenists wanted to take on Greek culture, forsake God Almighty etc. but the Maccabeans rose up, Amen.)

Hi Ronald, I must say that I enjoyed the detail of your historical work about A4E and all the background that went along with it.
Years ago, I also undertook the exhausting work of comparing the details of that era of A4E with the prophecies of Daniel and the historical details found in 1&2 Maccabees, provided by the Jews.

However, there is one major oversight on your part that needs to be discovered and presented for all its own details, and that is the 2300 Days prophecy.
When one understands the time element and the simple math required of counting time in the 2300 Days, they will be well rewarded in discovering the real truth about A4E, and that is, he really was the one and the only "little horn".

 Thanks for presenting your truthful, detailed work here for us to view. Unfortunately not many can or will appreciate it, due to the fact that most here have already been drinking the Kool aide of the Scofield scam about the 70 weeks of Dan. 9:24-27.
His Blessings to you,
Earburner

 

[Earburner]

You don't have any time line charts of the 70 weeks (of years) do you, to show your interpretation of the 70 weeks ?

You just go on and on about Scofield. Well, produce a chart that shows your interpretation of the 70 weeks.


View attachment 68115

Actually, in post #230 Ronald D. Milam does a phenominal job of providing the historical record about the era and history surrounding Antiochus lV Epiphanes, the "little horn". My comments on it are in #239.

Unfortunately, though his work is that good for detail, he also has indirectly slipped up a bit and has accepted some corruption by church-ianity's very own false teacher Rev. Cyrus Scofield, and his diabolical view about the 70th week, that has corrupted most all of the fundamentalist churches.