Did Jesus say that adultery is grounds for divorce? - Nope.
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Agree. It is weird. It was a comment regarding the man who spilled his seed on the ground, and God killed him because of it.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I explained the most popular belief of why he was killed.
Then some believe it shows that masturbation is a sin.
Genesis 38:9 Lexicon: Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother's wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother.
Genesis 38:10 Lexicon: But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also.
Tough verses there! I’m leaving this thread. It’s going nowhere.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Thank you again for your reasoned responses....it is refreshing to have differences of opinion without downgrading an opposing view or the one holding it..
For sexual crimes such as homosexuality, especially in males, where the seed of life was placed where God never intended something sacred to go (without going into detail) and with bestiality. Where the animal was put to death as well as the human participant.
In each case in point, it was the complete disregard for the privilege of being able to transmit life in a lawful God sanctioned marriage, and the wilful taking of life in a premeditated murder.
God made the distinction between premeditated murder and manslaughter, as the law of the land usually does even today. But in Israel there were cities of refuge where someone who had killed another accidentally, or in a fit of rage, did something like pushing someone over and they hit their head on a rock and it killed them.....they were to flee to a city of refuge (there were 6 of these throughout the Promised Land) where they were to present their case to the elders at the city gate and were received hospitably.
To prevent willful murderers from taking advantage of this provision, the asylum seeker had to stand trial in the city where the killing took place in order to prove his innocence. If proved innocent, he was returned to the city of refuge, where he had to stay within its boundaries for the rest of his life or until the death of the high priest.” (Num 35:6; 11-15; 22-29; Josh 20:2-6)
How do we then view the bloodshed engaged in by God’s nation? The difference was that it was sanctioned by God as they defended the land gifted to them.....it was good land and envied by other nations who wanted it for themselves. God fought for Israel because the land was his gift to them. No war fought in Christian Times has had God’s sanction. Jesus taught us to love our enemies and to pray for them. (Matt 5:43-44) We cannot do that with weapons. And no land that is currently held by the nations who have the biggest weapons was God given......it was stolen from its native inhabitants. The nations of the world have one ruler....the one to whom world rulership was delivered...the one who is “the god of this world”. (2 Cor 4:3-4; 1 John 5:19; Luke 4:5-7)
God’s Spirit unifies his people...it does not divide them, nor can it accommodate different interpretations as if the truth can be stretched every which way and still remain truth....this is why it’s a choice, and why God gives us that choice without his interference...once our choice is made, it gives him something to bless as he “draws” us into his family.....a united global brotherhood. (1 Cor 1:10)
I see so many individuals on these forums promoting a truth that no one else accepts but themselves, vainly trying to promote their views as if they have a direct line to Jesus, and he has chosen them to be his mouthpiece......does God’s spirit speak with a forked tongue? I think it’s the other guy who does that....Christians cannot be lost in a sea of confusion.....because disunity proves that Jesus is not in our midst....and will have no blessing from his Father.
From studying the Mosaic Law, it is evident that God gave so much attention to sexual crimes (and all their many forms of deviation) and the wanton taking of human life, making these capital offences. Both these issues involved life itself....one in the transmission of the seed of life, and the other in the unlawful taking of human life.
For sexual crimes such as homosexuality, especially in males, where the seed of life was placed where God never intended something sacred to go (without going into detail) and with bestiality. Where the animal was put to death as well as the human participant.
In each case in point, it was the complete disregard for the privilege of being able to transmit life in a lawful God sanctioned marriage, and the wilful taking of life in a premeditated murder.
God made the distinction between premeditated murder and manslaughter, as the law of the land usually does even today. But in Israel there were cities of refuge where someone who had killed another accidentally, or in a fit of rage, did something like pushing someone over and they hit their head on a rock and it killed them.....they were to flee to a city of refuge (there were 6 of these throughout the Promised Land) where they were to present their case to the elders at the city gate and were received hospitably.
To prevent willful murderers from taking advantage of this provision, the asylum seeker had to stand trial in the city where the killing took place in order to prove his innocence. If proved innocent, he was returned to the city of refuge, where he had to stay within its boundaries for the rest of his life or until the death of the high priest.” (Num 35:6; 11-15; 22-29; Josh 20:2-6)
How do we then view the bloodshed engaged in by God’s nation? The difference was that it was sanctioned by God as they defended the land gifted to them.....it was good land and envied by other nations who wanted it for themselves. God fought for Israel because the land was his gift to them. No war fought in Christian Times has had God’s sanction. Jesus taught us to love our enemies and to pray for them. (Matt 5:43-44) We cannot do that with weapons. And no land that is currently held by the nations who have the biggest weapons was God given......it was stolen from its native inhabitants. The nations of the world have one ruler....the one to whom world rulership was delivered...the one who is “the god of this world”. (2 Cor 4:3-4; 1 John 5:19; Luke 4:5-7)
As a JW, we believe what is said in John 6:44; 65....we choose our beliefs, but God is the final arbiter of what is truth....he will “draw” those in whom he sees a teachable spirit to one truth, (like a young child) which all will share in a common bond of unity not seen in any other “Christian” faith....”love among yourselves” will be the identifying factor. (John 13:34-35)
God’s Spirit unifies his people...it does not divide them, nor can it accommodate different interpretations as if the truth can be stretched every which way and still remain truth....this is why it’s a choice, and why God gives us that choice without his interference...once our choice is made, it gives him something to bless as he “draws” us into his family.....a united global brotherhood. (1 Cor 1:10)
I see so many individuals on these forums promoting a truth that no one else accepts but themselves, vainly trying to promote their views as if they have a direct line to Jesus, and he has chosen them to be his mouthpiece......does God’s spirit speak with a forked tongue? I think it’s the other guy who does that....Christians cannot be lost in a sea of confusion.....because disunity proves that Jesus is not in our midst....and will have no blessing from his Father.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
@VictoryinJesus here is a short explanation of the the story of Onan....
“After Onan’s childless older brother Er was put to death by Jehovah for wrongdoing, Onan was told by Judah to perform brother-in-law marriage with Er’s widow Tamar. If a son was produced, he would not be the founder of Onan’s family, and the firstborn’s inheritance would belong to him as an heir to Er; whereas if no heir came, Onan would get the inheritance for himself. When Onan had relations with Tamar, he “wasted his semen on the earth” instead of giving it to her. This was not an act of masturbation on the part of Onan, for the account says “when he did have relations with his brother’s wife” he spilled his semen. Apparently it was a case of “coitus interruptus,” in which Onan purposely prevented ejaculation of his semen into Tamar’s genital tract. For his disobedience to his father, his covetousness, and his sin against the divine arrangement of marriage, not for self-abuse, Onan, himself also childless, was put to death by Jehovah.—Ge 38:6-10; 46:12; Nu 26:19.”
ONAN
This makes sense to me.
“After Onan’s childless older brother Er was put to death by Jehovah for wrongdoing, Onan was told by Judah to perform brother-in-law marriage with Er’s widow Tamar. If a son was produced, he would not be the founder of Onan’s family, and the firstborn’s inheritance would belong to him as an heir to Er; whereas if no heir came, Onan would get the inheritance for himself. When Onan had relations with Tamar, he “wasted his semen on the earth” instead of giving it to her. This was not an act of masturbation on the part of Onan, for the account says “when he did have relations with his brother’s wife” he spilled his semen. Apparently it was a case of “coitus interruptus,” in which Onan purposely prevented ejaculation of his semen into Tamar’s genital tract. For his disobedience to his father, his covetousness, and his sin against the divine arrangement of marriage, not for self-abuse, Onan, himself also childless, was put to death by Jehovah.—Ge 38:6-10; 46:12; Nu 26:19.”
ONAN
This makes sense to me.
As I understand it.
He was only allowed to have intercourse with his brothers wife until she conceived.
So he was enjoying sex with her and trying to prolong that as long as he could.
He was withdrawing early (before ejaculating) and letting his seed fall outside of her.
Thus prolonging the time he was permitted to have sex with her.
This was not doing service to his brother as he was required to do.
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Divorce is a Jewish concept.
The word occurs in the Gospels when Christ is talking to Jews.
But the word does not occur outside of the Gospels..
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
You need to use that wildcard (*) when searching:
Lev 21:14 A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, [or] an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin of his own people to wife.
Lev 22:13 But if the priest's daughter be a widow, or divorced, and have no child, and is returned unto her father's house, as in her youth, she shall eat of her father's meat: but there shall no stranger eat thereof.
Num 30:9 But every vow of a widow, and of her that is divorced, wherewith they have bound their souls, shall stand against her.
Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give [it] in her hand, and send her out of his house. ... 3 And [if] the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth [it] in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her [to be] his wife;
Isa 50:1 Thus saith the LORD, Where [is] the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors [is it] to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
LOL We where talking about the New Testament.
I said it was a Jewish concept so yes it would be in the Old Testament.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Will Matthew 19: 3-9 suffice?
“And Pharisees came to him intent on testing him, and they asked: “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of grounds?” 4 In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.” 7 They said to him: “Why, then, did Moses direct giving a certificate of dismissal and divorcing her?” 8 He said to them: “Out of regard for your hard-heartedness, Moses made the concession to you of divorcing your wives, but that has not been the case from the beginning. 9 I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of sexual immorality, and marries another commits adultery.”
Jesus’ own words in the NT….he is renewing the original terms of marriage.
“And Pharisees came to him intent on testing him, and they asked: “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of grounds?” 4 In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.” 7 They said to him: “Why, then, did Moses direct giving a certificate of dismissal and divorcing her?” 8 He said to them: “Out of regard for your hard-heartedness, Moses made the concession to you of divorcing your wives, but that has not been the case from the beginning. 9 I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of sexual immorality, and marries another commits adultery.”
Jesus’ own words in the NT….he is renewing the original terms of marriage.
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What's left after I have thrown everything away? (some may wonder)
Fair question. Obviously, I have discarded much of what the institutional church and evangelicalism has given us. So, what's left? Faith is left after you strip away all the unnecessary apologetic trimmings. In fact, I believe you can't have faith without doing that. So many Christians...
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Genesis 38:9 Lexicon: Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother's wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother.
He knew the offspring would not be his?
Genesis 38:10 Lexicon: But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also.
Would you say the above at least was the mind set of why they asked Jesus this about a man raising up seed unto his brother? And whose wife will she be? Or do you say there is no connection?
Matthew 22:24-28 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. [25] Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: [26] Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. [27] And last of all the woman died also. [28] Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Actually Jesus neither approved or condemned divorce in the Matthre Passage. what He said that if one divorces their wife (except for adultery which is fornication by a married person) AND marries another commits adultery. He was talking about remarrying after divorce and what was okay to remarry for.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Exactly...he was next in line for the larger part his father’s inheritance, so brother in law marriage would make the child he produced an heir of his father Er (the firstborn) but Onan wanted the inheritance for himself and this was the way to achieve it.....don’t produce an heir for his brother and the inheritance was his. God saw his wicked reasoning and actions and put him to death also.
Yes there is a connection....
The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, so they tried to trap Jesus by offering the scenario of the woman marrying all seven brothers....they knew about the law on brother in law marriage, and saw an opportunity to trip him up....but because the Jews only believed in an earthly kingdom, they did not appreciate the heavenly aspect of the election and their role in the kingdom of God. (Rev 20:6)
For them, the Jews would become the “kingdom of priests and a holy nation” as they were promised (Ex 19:5-6)....but because they failed to obey their God, and this was part of the terms of his promise, they lost out on its fulfilment. They could never do as they were told, and they did not accept Jesus as Messiah, so they lost their place in that arrangement when God chose a new “Israel” to serve his interests in heaven by ruling over redeemed mankind on earth. Peter said that this promise was now given to Christ’s elect. (1 Pet 2:7-10)
Rev 21:2-4 was a foregleam of what was to come.....
“I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
By means of his kingdom, administered from heaven over the redeemed human race on an earth, cleansed of every vestige of satan’s rulership, and those who supported it, God will reestablish his first purpose....the very reason why he put us here to live forever in the first place. (Isa 55:11; Gen 3:22-24)
Allowing the devil to prove that he was the better ruler, God gave him relative freedom to try his best to become what mankind needed.....but because he was now a victim of sin himself, he had nothing to offer them but his own selfish example, reflected in every form of human rulership we can name. (1 John 5:12; 2 Cor 4:3-4)
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Thank you. I now see the severity in why God saw his wicked reasoning and actions and put him to death also. It appears more about the firstborn. I can see how he refused to raise up seed unto his brother foreshadowed love not for God nor brother. Yet Jesus called them brothers, and God raised up seed which is Christ. Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
And they sought to kill the rightful Heir, the Firstborn because He threatened their inheritance. When really it was their own actions which threatened their inheritance. For example,
John 8:37-41 I know that you are Abraham's seed; but you seek to kill me, because my word has no place in you. [38] I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and you do that which you have seen with your father. [39] They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said unto them, If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. [40] But now you seek to kill me, a man that has told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. [41] You do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
I still think it all points to Christ just like the Passover and how they had sought to kill all the firstborn…there is a lot foreshadowing the firstborn. That is why I now see why they tempted Him with whose wife will she be she when all seven had her?
I believe yes it is, sexual immortality is adultery and fornication, according to bible definition. Lusting can be, that depends.
St. SteVen said:
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
And re-read the OP and post #39.
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9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
Check the KJV translation.
And re-read the OP and post #39.
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Did Jesus say that adultery is grounds for divorce? - Nope.
The position of the church and society at large is mistaken as to what Jesus was quoted as saying in the gospels. IMHO
Let's discuss.
Questions:
1) What did Jesus actually say?
2) Why did he say it?
3) If we got this wrong, where do we go from here?
The position of the church and society at large is that adultery (sexual immorality) is grounds for divorce.
And they will quote Jesus as an authority on this. But is Jesus being misquoted? Yes, I believe so.
The biggest problem is the disconnect we have with the culture that Jesus was speaking to.
The church teaches that the only grounds for divorce is adultery. (sexual immorality)
But that is not what Jesus actually said.
The basis for this teaching is found in Matthew 19:9
See the NIV translation below, taking note of verse 10 as well as verse 9. (at the very bottom of this post)
Then compare the KJV below that. Note the use of the word "fornication" which matches the NT Greek.
This makes a HUGE difference, especially when considering the cultural setting of the Israelites under the law.
Jesus was saying that the only grounds for divorce is fornication, which is sexual intercourse before marriage. (not after)
What does this mean? Both in the historical context and to the misinterpretation assigned by the church today. ???
For the Israelites, a bride's parents presented her as a virgin to her husband-to-be. The law of Moses made a provision for this.
If the husband-to-be discovered that he had been given a bride that was not a virgin, he could divorce her. (for fornication)
Unfortunately, some new husbands were making false claims in order to divorce their new brides. The fornication loophole.
Parents were allowed to challenge this claim if it was false. See Deuteronomy 22:16-18
Therefore, the KJV translation is correct and the church got it wrong.
Jesus said there is no grounds for divorce except for fornication. Now read verse 10 again.
Better not to marry? Indeed. Not if you have ANY plans to divorce.
Matthew 19:8-10 NIV
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”
--- COMPARE ---
Matthew 19:8-10 KJV
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives:
but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication,
and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
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