Of what value is retribution against humankind to God? - Love your enemies?

[Wick Stick]

But how could that ever be FAIR?
Our time here is but 80 to 120 years. (or less) The afterlife is forever.

I agree - an eternity of torment is not a balancing of the scales. But neither is a free hall pass.

If God is concerned with fairness, then some reckoning is required.

And again, of what ultimate value is retribution?

In the appropriate measure, it restores balance.

1Corinthians 3:
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

The idea of fairness dictates that those who do good should receive the fruits of their labor, and those who do bad should reap the consequences of their actions. But that doesn't happen in this life. Evil men prosper by exploiting honest men's labor.

God taking retribution is a balancing of the scales. The unjust, who received MORE than their fair share in life, must suffer reprisal to bring things back to level. Contrariwise, the righteous, who did not receive their just rewards in the here and now... receive their just rewards in the by-and-by.

This seems to be the theme of Matthew 6:

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; 18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

Now, eternal torment doesn't seem to be a balancing of the scale to me. But I think there's room within a universalist viewpoint for God to take some vengeance. Fairness is at the heart of the universalist argument, and fairness requires some retribution.

@Wick Stick, the passage you quote merely says that unbelievers' "rewards" will happen only in this life, not during the next one. However, any rewards we get after we are saved in this life and the next are by God's grace anyway, because we never "deserve" any blessing from God, who lavishes both believers and unbelievers with his gracious gifts in this life.

 

[Windmill Charge]

He should do more than the church claims.
What purpose would retribution serve?
I'd like to think that God has better qualities than a playground bully

In sending Jesus he did more than he had to do!

If it took Jesus's death and resurrection to save us how are you in all honesty able to call your creator God a bully?

 

[St. SteVen]

In sending Jesus he did more than he had to do!

Seriously?
Because you think we are not worth it?
Is humankind worthless to God?

If it took Jesus's death and resurrection to save us how are you in all honesty able to call your creator God a bully?

To be clear, it is not I that is considering God a bully. It is those who claim He will use retribution. Is that you?

[

 

[Jack]

Seriously?
Because you think we are not worth it?
Is humankind worthless to God?


To be clear, it is not I that is considering God a bully. It is those who claim He will use retribution. Is that you?

[

Hey STV, is there anything in the Bible you believe to be God's written Word? Anything???

 

[Wick Stick]

@Wick Stick, the passage you quote merely says that unbelievers' "rewards" will happen only in this life, not during the next one.

Matthew 6 says more than that.

First, it says nothing about unbelievers. It concerns the disciples, and the "hypocrites" who ARE believing Pharisees who are more concerned about virtue-signaling to others than actually doing good.

Jesus tells His disciples that they should do good works in private, so that they may receive their rewards from God, rather than man.

 

[Windmill Charge]

Because you think we are not worth it?

You are valuing people, but are devaluing Jesus.
As that verse in John3 says, God so loved the world. What more do you think God could do?

To be clear, it is not I that is considering God a bully. It is those who claim He will use retribution. Is that you?

You are the one saying it, I try to follow what the bible teaches, like Eph 2:you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

as Romans 2 says :4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

People have a responsibility to react to God, having the ability to choose means taking the consquence of rejecting God.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Because you think we are not worth it?

You are valuing people, but are devaluing Jesus.
As that verse in John3 says, God so loved the world. What more do you think God could do?

Considerable more than what you and the church claim.

The church says that anyone that does not acknowledge Christ in this lifetime will burn forever in hell, or be destroyed.
What about the countless billions that never knew anything about Christ?

Seems that God could do considerably more.

Universal Redemption solves this problem.

[

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Matthew 6 says more than that.

First, it says nothing about unbelievers. It concerns the disciples, and the "hypocrites" who ARE believing Pharisees who are more concerned about virtue-signaling to others than actually doing good.

Jesus tells His disciples that they should do good works in private, so that they may receive their rewards from God, rather than man.

@Wick Stick, please read your Bible. The majority of the Pharisees are hypocrites, which means unbelieving actors. How do I know? The majority of the Pharisees reject Jesus and send him to his death.

Yes, Matthew 5-7 are for the disciples and you and me, because Matthew 5:1 at the beginning of the sermon says, "Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him."

However, believers' good works and their rewards are all products of God's complete grace, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:10, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Our lives are like God's work of art that he is continuing and will complete when we die or are resurrected if Jesus comes first.

 

[Zao is life]

No matter what your view is on the final judgement/evaluation of humankind,
what would be the value of retribution against humankind? What does it accomplish?

Three views of the final judgment:
- Damnationism (eternal punishment)
- Annihilationism (destruction of the wicked)
- Universalism (ultimate redemption)

Jesus taught us to love our enemies.
What should He do with His own?

[

I don't think it has anything to do with retribution but in bringing things to an end that cannot continue forever, and God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the prophet.

The Bible teaches us about the living [zao] God, who has life [zoe] in Himself, creating human beings and breathing life [zoe] into them in order that they may become living [zao] souls [psyche], so that they may live | may be alive [zao], each one in his own created body on the created earth.

The Bible does not teach us that God created human beings so that Adam or anyone else should "die and then go to heaven when they die". The resurrection of the human body from the dead is an integral part of the gospel:

In 1 Corinthians 15:26 we read that death is the enemy of God.

In Ezekiel 18:32 God says, "For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye."

In the deuterocanonical (apocryphal) book of the Wisdom of Solomon it is written that "God made not death: neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living. For he created all things, that they might have their being." (Wisdom 1:13-14).

Paul said, "In Him (God) we live | are alive [zao], and move, and have our being; For we are also his offspring." (Acts 17:28); and "To us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." (1 Corinthians 8:6).

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It's logical that if a king has an adversary in his kingdom who is causing disruption, killing or harming the king's subjects, deceiving as many as he can, continuously encouraging dissent against the king and continuously calling the king's authority and integrity into question,

then if the king wants to put a stop to it, he would need to either bind the adversary and lock him in a dungeon, rendering the adversary completely unable to cause more harm, or simply destroy the adversary,

but if the king in his wisdom and sovereign will continues to permit the adversary for a season and a time to continue, whether it be in order to separate the king's loyal and faithful subjects from his adversaries or for any other reason, then this choice and decision is within the king's sovereign right. Even then I don't think it has anything to do with retribution but in bringing things to an end that cannot continue forever, and God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the prophet.

 

[Wick Stick]

@Wick Stick, please read your Bible. The majority of the Pharisees are hypocrites, which means unbelieving actors. How do I know? The majority of the Pharisees reject Jesus and send him to his death.

Yes, Matthew 5-7 are for the disciples and you and me, because Matthew 5:1 at the beginning of the sermon says, "Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him."

However, believers' good works and their rewards are all products of God's complete grace, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:10, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Our lives are like God's work of art that he is continuing and will complete when we die or are resurrected if Jesus comes first.

You missed the point.

 

[Windmill Charge]

St. SteVen said:
Because you think we are not worth it?

Considerable more than what you and the church claim.

The church says that anyone that does not acknowledge Christ in this lifetime will burn forever in hell, or be destroyed.
What about the countless billions that never knew anything about Christ?

Seems that God could do considerably more.

Universal Redemption solves this problem.

[

No it is not the church that says this. The church teaches what is found in the bible from Jesus's own words in John3:18 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

UniversaL redemption solves nothing, try talking to a militant athiest about their being brought into heaven for an eternity and see how repugnant they find that idea, ditto to a muslim or hindu or buhddist, none of them will welcome the idea of being compelled to attend a Christian Heaven.

 

[St. SteVen]

UniversaL redemption solves nothing, try talking to a militant athiest about their being brought into heaven for an eternity and see how repugnant they find that idea, ditto to a muslim or hindu or buhddist, none of them will welcome the idea of being compelled to attend a Christian Heaven.

Even when presented with your alternative?
Burn forever in hell, or be destroyed.

Ten seconds in hell would be enough to convince anyone.
An eternity would be the most sadistic punishment imaginable.
Worse than any human tyrant.

[

 

[Behold]

what would be the value of retribution against humankind?

The judgement of God is not "against human kind".
Its only against Christ rejectors, who died never born again.
-
New International Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

New Living Translation
And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”

English Standard Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Berean Standard Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Berean Literal Bible
The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

King James Bible
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

New King James Version
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Amplified Bible
He who believes and trusts in the Son and accepts Him [as Savior] has eternal life [that is, already possesses it]; but he who does not believe the Son and chooses to reject Him, [disobeying Him and denying Him as Savior] will not see [eternal] life, but [instead] the wrath of God hangs over him continually.”

 

[Behold]

An eternity would be the most sadistic punishment imaginable.
Worse than any human tyrant.

You keep falsely defining God as your carnal minded opinion drives you to keep doing it.
Not a good idea.

 

[St. SteVen]

You keep falsely defining God as your carnal minded opinion drives you to keep doing it.
Not a good idea.

That saw cuts both ways.
Your definition of God is as a sadistic tyrant, not mine.
I don't believe in a forever burning hell.

[

 

[Behold]

Your definition of God is as a sadistic tyrant, not mine.

God is Holy and His Holiness demands Justice.
The Cross of Christ was God's Justice (Judgement against Sin) that fell on His Son.
Are you aware of it? @St. SteVen ?
Have you not noticed the incredible intensity regarding what happened to Jesus, so that a sinner like you can be be forgiven?

So, Hell is not "sadistic" .. its Justice....its Judgement....Its Righteous Justice against filthy sinners who will not have God's Salvation before they died.

I don't believe in a forever burning hell.

Hell does not "burn forever".
Hell is "cast into the Lake of Fire".....so there is the "burning".

 

[Prycejosh1987]

Jesus taught us to love our enemies.
What should He do with His own?

Loving our enemies is hard to do. I have been doing this for years and it still is a struggle. Because they tend to abuse kindness and be carefree while being hostile. But Jesus word is true, and it stands no matter what happens. But Gods justice comes in the end, and i think that as long as i did my part i am worthy of being saved. This is the most important thing. I do what Jesus said, He said give thanks to someone being hostile. I thank my abusers to their faces.

 

[Behold]

What about the countless billions that never knew anything about Christ?

Everyone will have a chance.

Universal Redemption solves this problem.

The Problem with "universalism" is that its a "doctrine of Devils" that teaches that you dont have to be forgiven you sin, or born again, on earth, to go to Heaven.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
What about the countless billions that never knew anything about Christ?

Everyone will have a chance.

On that point we agree.

[