The Wrath of God - How is it love?

[Brakelite]

If I come across a dog with his teeth sunk into the calf of my 4 year old grand son, that dog will die from my wrath and fury. I am being merciful in doing so. Not only on behalf of my grand son, but any potential future victims. The local council would whole heartedly agree, and would have done the deed in my absence.
It's the same with God when He required that Israel destroy those nations of Canaan that were sacrificing their own children to their gods . Not only would it save the children of today, but those victims of later generations. God is being merciful. I'm sorry you don't get it, and think my God is to be abhorred for His wisdom, justice and love.

 

[St. SteVen]

They're trolling.

Par for the course. - LOL

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[quietthinker]

The Wrath of God - How is it love?​

God's wrath is defined in Romans 1:18-32. It fundamentally says that God allows folk to reap the consequences of their sustained choices.
The words, 'he gave them over' to what they choose and love. Yep, breakdown which ultimately results in death.
....and why would someone choose death? Ask any addict who has given themselves over to their habit.

So you ask, how is this love? I would answer this way, .....Love allows freedom and in so doing risks those that are loved to turn against you and to turn against others, even turn against themselves. It destroys. This is the madness of sin for which there is no reason and no excuse.

God understands that all of us slid down that birth canal predisposed to attitudes and dispositions unasked for. He not only understands, he also forgives. This is also the nature of love.....and even this we can turn our back on....and reap its consequences.

 

[pandaflower]

Par for the course. - LOL

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Tiresome, I'd think .

Especially when there's no bar-cart making the rounds. lol

 

[Wick Stick]

How could mercy be delivered with unbridled and furious wrath?

The brightest light casts the deepest shadow.

How could mercy be delivered, if there was never any real danger, nothing to be "saved" from?

 

[quietthinker]

If I come across a dog with his teeth sunk into the calf of my 4 year old grand son, that dog will die from my wrath and fury. I am being merciful in doing so. Not only on behalf of my grand son, but any potential future victims. The local council would whole heartedly agree, and would have done the deed in my absence.
It's the same with God when He required that Israel destroy those nations of Canaan that were sacrificing their own children to their gods . Not only would it save the children of today, but those victims of later generations. God is being merciful. I'm sorry you don't get it, and think my God is to be abhorred for His wisdom, justice and love.

Isn't it easy to superimpose our sense of justice onto God, Brakelite?.....subsequently the violence displayed in the myths of pagan gods.
Is our sense of justice God's sense of justice? Does God solve problems the way mortals think problems are solved?

God never intended Israel to dispossess the peoples of the land he was giving them with violence. God had other methods. Violence is not a part of God's arsenal.
Jesus tells us it is the thief who comes to steal, kill and destroy. Jesus' objective is to give fullness of life.

Israels violence perpetrated on the people of the promised land was Israels choice and preference.....because they did not trust God. Israel lived in fear. Fear was their heritage from Pharaoh. Violence is the manifestation of fear.

 

[pandaflower]

Isn't it easy to superimpose our sense of justice onto God, Brakelite?.....subsequently the violence displayed in the myths of pagan gods.
Is our sense of justice God's sense of justice? Does God solve problems the way mortals think problems are solved?

God never intended Israel to dispossess the peoples of the land he was giving them with violence. God had other methods. Violence is not a part of God's arsenal.
Jesus tells us it is the thief who comes to steal, kill and destroy. Jesus' objective is to give fullness of life.

Israels violence perpetrated on the people of the promised land was Israels choice and preference.....because they did not trust God. Israel lived in fear. Fear was their heritage from Pharaoh. Violence is the manifestation of fear.

Violence is not part of God's arsenal?

 

[ElieG12]

Isn't it easy to superimpose our sense of justice onto God, Brakelite?.....subsequently the violence displayed in the myths of pagan gods.
Is our sense of justice God's sense of justice? Does God solve problems the way mortals think problems are solved?

True.
God is the one who determines what is just, and that is how He judges.

God never intended Israel to dispossess the peoples of the land he was giving them with violence. God had other methods. Violence is not a part of God's arsenal.
Jesus tells us it is the thief who comes to steal, kill and destroy. Jesus' objective is to give fullness of life.

Israels violence perpetrated on the people of the promised land was Israels choice and preference.....because they did not trust God. Israel lived in fear. Fear was their heritage from Pharaoh. Violence is the manifestation of fear.

False.
Just as God Himself establishes His own justice and judges, He also condemns and executes His own just judgment. Israel was the executor of God's judgments, and could only attack and destroy by God's direct command.

Sometimes the Israelites took the initiative to attack without God's approval or direct command, and they suffered serious consequences. They were not judges, but executioners in God's hands.

Actually, Jehovah often took measures to wait for or favor certain enemies of His, until condemnation and judgment became inevitable.

 

[pandaflower]

True.
God is the one who determines what is just, and that is how He judges.

False.
Just as God Himself establishes His own justice and judges, He also condemns and executes His own just judgment. Israel was the executor of God's judgments, and could only attack and destroy by God's direct command.

Sometimes the Israelites took the initiative to attack without God's approval or direct command, and they suffered serious consequences. They were not judges, but executioners in God's hands.

Actually, Jehovah often took measures to wait for or favor certain enemies of His, until condemnation and judgment became inevitable.

Sadly,there are more than one here who intend to rewrite the Bible and deny the existence of scripture they disagree with.

The idea that violence is not part of God's arsenal is but one such effort undertaken by those who obviously don't read the Old Testament.

 

[quietthinker]

Violence is not part of God's arsenal?

Do you want to elaborate on your question?

 

[quietthinker]

True.
God is the one who determines what is just, and that is how He judges.

False.
Just as God Himself establishes His own justice and judges, He also condemns and executes His own just judgment. Israel was the executor of God's judgments, and could only attack and destroy by God's direct command.

Sometimes the Israelites took the initiative to attack without God's approval or direct command, and they suffered serious consequences. They were not judges, but executioners in God's hands.

Actually, Jehovah often took measures to wait for or favor certain enemies of His, until condemnation and judgment became inevitable.

How would you reconcile Jesus approach manifested in his living and dying with God sanctioning violence seeing he is the Ultimate arbitrator of God's purposes?

 

[ElieG12]

If you call "violence" what you don't approve on God's judgment, you have a very serious problem, because you pretend that you can judge God Himself, putting yourself above Him.

 

[pandaflower]

Do you want to elaborate on your question?

Sure. It was rhetorical.

You should read the Old Testament before joining a forum and posting amid people who have.

 

[pandaflower]

How would you reconcile Jesus approach manifested in his living and dying with God sanctioning violence seeing he is the Ultimate arbitrator of God's purposes?

If you read the New Testament you'll see Jesus was born to die as a sacrifice,ransom,for our sins.
By God's will according to his plan for our salvation.

Crucifixion and torture prior to,was acts of violence.

 

[quietthinker]

Sure. It was rhetorical.

You should read the Old Testament before joining a forum and posting amid people who have.

I see. I can assure you that I am familiar with the OT including the many attributions of violence to God.
I am also familiar with the reality of Jesus, the which does not appear to jive with these attributions.

I also think that any honest assessment of both the OT records and the history of Jesus will admit there is inconsistency.
Would you have the courage to pursue this?

 

[quietthinker]

If you read the New Testament you'll see Jesus was born to die as a sacrifice,ransom,for our sins.
By God's will according to his plan for our salvation.

Crucifixion and torture prior to,was acts of violence.

Have you really come to the conclusion that Jesus talking to his Father in John 17, was assured that his Father was about to have him tortured and killed because he needed it before he could forgive?

 

[ElieG12]

Have you really come to the conclusion that Jesus talking to his Father in John 17, was assured that his Father was about to have him tortured and killed because he needed it before he could forgive?

Tell us honestly, do you really have any personal respect for the God shown to us in the Bible, or do you just ask questions to demonstrate your contempt for the way he exercises his divine justice?

Psal. 111:10a The fear of Jehovah is the beginning of wisdom.

 

[pandaflower]

I see. I can assure you that I am familiar with the OT including the many attributions of violence to God.
I am also familiar with the reality of Jesus, the which does not appear to jive with these attributions.

I also think that any honest assessment of both the OT records and the history of Jesus will admit there is inconsistency.
Would you have the courage to pursue this?

Personally, I already have.

I think there were many Gods in the OT record. The names therein attributed to God being proof of not one,but many.

I think in the pursuit of a monotheistic ideal, those who composed our OT omitted those facts.

Talk to any observant Jew, they will tell the inquiring Christian that our Old Testament is not their OT.

If you take our Bible as written,and accept NT Jesus is OT God in the flesh, the gospel is teaching us to ask the same God who cursed us in Eden to save us from himself and his curse.

We're taught Jesus died as a ransom for our sins.

A ransom paid to himself after he made us to be condemned in separation from him for the sin of the first people?

Why didn't he forgive them for their sins then and there?

Whereas, if one lesser God cursed us to be sinners, the true higher God paying in his own blood,paying the ransom, as the proverbial scapegoat for the world's sins and to nullify the curse upon all humans made by that lesser God , would make sense.

Otherwise, accepting the Genesis mono-God of the OT and the gospel of NT Jesus as is,we are asking God to save us from himself.

 

[ElieG12]

Beating around the bush to avoid understanding the truth is certainly NOT "apologetics", but self-deception.

Punishment is part of justice. This is true of human laws that judge those who break them. How much more will God punish all those who ultimately decided to continue violating His righteous principles? The only ones who complain about criminals being punished, aren't the criminals themselves?

Up to this moment, earth and heaven continue to feed the just and the unjust, without distinction. The evils that befall humans are not caused by God, but by themselves.

God's justice and love balance each other out. Mercy causes God to continue patiently forgiving those who repent of their evil deeds and change their behavior. However, His patience will not last forever, and the judgment of evil people will give way to a future free from suffering for those who do strive to do right.

Jesus paid with His life so that humans would have that opportunity. Even people who were unjust in life will be raised from the dead and have another chance.

To make an omelette you have to break an egg. For the righteous to enjoy peace, the wicked must be erased from the face of the earth, along with their spiritual Leader and other evil spirits. Thus, God will fulfill his promise of a just and peaceful Kingdom that will last forever for the benefit of good people.

 

[Jack]

We have often heard about these two aspects of God's character, His love and His wrath.

The concept is acceptable to many, citing biblical sources to confirm.
But to others it is troubling, noting that the character of God does not allow for such a contradiction.

Since God is love, His wrath also needs to be a manifestation of love.
But that's not the description given by many. They describe an anger driven rage, which is obviously not love.

How do we resolve this contradiction?

The Wrath of God - How is it love?

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"The Wrath of God - How is it love?"

God doesn't need your permission stevie!