I know

[Matthias]

I watched it. I really don't like when people answer questions with a question.

You wouldn’t like Jesus’ teaching then. He isn’t going to spoon-feed you. He’s going to require you to think.

“What do you mean by God?"

Sagan asked the right question.

Everyone in that room knows what he means, and he never did answer the question the man asked.

The student didn’t define God (epic failure on his part) and neither did Sagan (he waffled on deism).

Sagan didn’t represent himself as a follower of the Messiah and the student didn’t represent himself as being a believer in the Messiah’s God.

The shortcoming of the otherwise excellent argument is that it doesn’t define who the creator God is.

 

[Matthias]

@Riven do you know that Jesus himself is a Jewish monotheist? If you do, do you understand what that means?

 

[Wick Stick]

It’s a book of the Bible. The God of the Bible - Yahweh - is Job’s God. There is no God besides Job’s God. Everything else is idols.

Leviathan and Behemoth appear in Job. Those are Canaanite gods of the sea. (well... maybe titans or monsters are better words than gods)

And no, everything else isn't idols. Idols are objects of reverence and veneration. Leviathan and Behemoth weren't worshiped. They were thought of as enemies.

 

[Matthias]

Leviathan and Behemoth appear in Job. Those are Canaanite gods of the sea. (well... maybe titans or monsters are better words than gods)

And no, everything else isn't idols. Idols are objects of reverence and veneration. Leviathan and Behemoth weren't worshiped. They were thought of as enemies.

All idols are worshipped as gods. The choice we are given in scripture is to choose between worshipping the one true God and the myriad of false gods.

Job worshipped the one true God. The one true God is identified by his personal name in the book.

***

@Riven so did Jesus - a Jewish monotheist - worship that same one true God.

Jesus explicitly defines who God is.

 

[Riven]

You wouldn’t like Jesus’ teaching then. He isn’t going to spoon-feed you. He’s going to require you to think.

It's far more likely that I would require him to think. Unlike his followers of the day, I am not an illiterate peasant.

Sagan asked the right question.

Technically, yes.

The student didn’t define God (epic failure on his part) and neither did Sagan (he waffled on deism).

The student was timid and failed to define what god he was taking about when asked. However, Sagan's waffling on deism leads me to believe he wasn't interested in talking about Yahweh in that moment. One doesn't need to be a mind reader to know who God is when asked.

@Riven do you know that Jesus himself is a Jewish monotheist? If you do, do you understand what that means?

Was a Jewish monotheist. As for what it means, I am unsure.

 

[Matthias]

It's far more likely that I would require him to think.

You’re no intellectual match for him. He is the embodiment of the mind of God.

Job wanted God to think. When God answered Job, Job repented.

Unlike his followers of the day, I am not an illiterate peasant.

Not all of his followers were illiterate. In their discipleship they are wiser than atheists and agnostics.

Technically, yes.

Sagan was a highly intelligent man and he came to the event prepared. He destroyed the intimidated student.

The student was timid and failed to define what god he was taking about when asked.

The student was star struck, unprepared, and intellectually overpowered.

However, Sagan's waffling on deism leads me to believe he wasn't interested in talking about Yahweh in that moment.

That may be true. The student could have made that clear, if that in fact was the case, had he not instantly capitulated.

Sagan should have been confronted with Yahweh. If he had been I think he would have had, and given, a weak answer.

One doesn't need to be a mind reader to know who God is when asked.

There are many opinions about who God is and isn’t. That plays out on this website, ad nauseam, every day.

Was a Jewish monotheist.

He‘s alive and hasn’t changed his theology. He was and is a Jewish monotheist. So were the prophets. So were the apostles. So were the primitive Christians.

As for what it means, I am unsure.

What it means to me is that his theology is the one which properly defines who God is.

There are disciples whose theology is his and there are disciples whose theology isn’t his.

 

[Riven]

You’re no intellectual match for him. He is the embodiment of the mind of God.

Perhaps I would fail then. It still wouldn't stop me from arguing with God of I thought he was wrong about something. Isn't that the essence of independent thought?

Not all of his followers were illiterate. In their discipleship they are wiser than atheists and agnostics.

Many of them were while Jesus walked the earth. Wisdon is not the same as knowledge.

That may be true. The student could have made that clear, if that in fact was the case, had he not instantly capitulated.

Sagan should have been confronted with Yahweh. If he had been I think he would have had, and given, a weak answer.

Agreed. In such cases, the direct approach is necessary. It seemed like the student was trying to get Sagan to open up on his personal beliefs regarding a purpose in life, and if there even is one. But this presents a problem for Sagan because he has no purpose and her can't offer one to anyone else that is meaningful in any real sense.

Michael Schermer, an atheist, is fond of telling people that they must find their own purpose in a universe without purpose. I believe this line of thought is incoherent.

There are many opinions about who God is and isn’t. That plays out on this website, ad nauseam, every day.

Indeed. The bickering amongst Christians is akin to a blood sport. They treat me better than they treat each other. But when I say God, most people know what I'm talking about. I think to feign ignorance on the subject as Sagan did, isn't a genuine inquiry born of ignorance. Instead I believe it is clever deflection designed to muddy the waters.

He hasn’t changed his theology. He was and is a Jewish monotheist. So were the prophets. So were the apostles. So were the primitive Christians.

I was being somewhat facetious. The fact is, the Romans killed him and he hasn't returned yet. One might assume that he is dead.

What it means to me is that his theology is the one which properly defines who God is.

Meaning what, exactly?

 

[Matthias]

Perhaps I would fail then. It still wouldn't stop me from arguing with God of I thought he was wrong about something. Isn't that the essence of independent thought?

God isn’t wrong about anything.

Many of them were while Jesus walked the earth. Wisdon is not the same as knowledge.

They’re going to live in the coming perfect age.

Agreed. In such cases, the direct approach is necessary. It seemed like the student was trying to get Sagan to open up on his personal beliefs regarding a purpose in life, and if there even is one. But this presents a problem for Sagan because he has no purpose and her can't offer one to anyone else that is meaningful in any real sense.

I think that’s a good analysis. What is your purpose?

Michael Schermer, an atheist, is fond of telling people that they must find their own purpose in a universe without purpose. I believe this line of thought is incoherent.

He probably calls it a paradox rather than a contradiction. I think your take on it is right.

Indeed. The bickering amongst Christians is akin to a blood sport. They treat me better than they treat each other.

Paul knew it was going to happen and wrote about it. They’ll have to answer to the Messiah for their actions.

But when I say God, most people know what I'm talking about.

I’m not sure I do.

I think to feign ignorance on the subject as Sagan did, isn't a genuine inquiry born of ignorance. Instead I believe it is clever deflection designed to muddy the waters.

He was an agnostic and unwilling, perhaps unable, to commit.

I was being somewhat facetious. The fact is, the Romans killed him and he hasn't returned yet. One might assume that he is dead.

The New Testament witness is that God resurrected him to life. I‘m certain of the identity of that God but I’m uncertain about who or what you think that God is.

Meaning what, exactly?

Meaning that we’re going to hear a wide variety of theologies concerning who (and / or what) God is and the Messiah, Son of God is the arbiter.

 

[Riven]

I think that’s a good analysis. What is your purpose?

I don't have one. There seems to be no reason for me to exist, but I do. I pursue things that bring me joy and pleasure in an otherwise meaningless existence. Your god never reveals himself to me. Not even when I cry out to him. There's only so much a man can do.

I’m not sure I do.

I find that hard to believe. What other god do you think I'm talking about?

He was an agnostic and unwilling, perhaps unable, to commit.

Unable being the keyword here.

The New Testament witness is that God resurrected him to life. I‘m certain of the identity of that God but I’m uncertain about who or what you think that God is.

God is an absentee father figure that abandoned his creation, assuming he did create it. The deist position is the most logical conclusion to draw here. It explains the universe, as well as the absence of the creator.

 

[Matthias]

I don't have one.

God created man with a purpose.

There seems to be no reason for me to exist, but I do. I pursue things that bring me joy and pleasure in an otherwise meaningless existence.

The Bible reading plan that I’m using this year currently has me reading the book of Ecclesiastes. “Vanity of vanities, says the preacher. All is vanity.” Maybe you remember reading it or hearing it. The preacher doesn’t end his book with futility.

Your god never reveals himself to me.

The God who created the universe has revealed himself to all human beings.

Not even when I cry out to him. There's only so much a man can do.

He’s heard your cry and sent you a savior. You’ve resisted him.

I find that hard to believe. What other god do you think I'm talking about?

I don’t know. Here’s my invitation - please, you to tell me: Who is God? I‘ll compare your answer to the Messiah’s answer.

Unable being the keyword here.

There’s always a reason why people are unable, and reasons vary from person to person. We’ve spent some time discussing and exploring yours.

God is an absentee father figure that abandoned his creation, assuming he did create it. The deist position is the most logical conclusion to draw here. It explains the universe, as well as the absence of the creator.

It’s impossible to read the Bible - even with very little understanding - and come away saying that the Bible storyline is that the creator has abandoned his creation. The Bible storyline is one of restoration.

The creator isn’t absent. He is the God who is near. There’s no place we can go to escape his presence.

 

[Riven]

God created man with a purpose.

What do you think that purpose is?

The Bible reading plan that I’m using this year currently has me reading the book of Ecclesiastes. “Vanity of vanities, says the preacher. All is vanity.” Maybe you remember reading it or hearing it. The preacher doesn’t end his book with futility.

It's been a while since I've been to a church. So I can't say I'm familiar with it.

The God who created the universe has revealed himself to all human beings.

Not all. There are some who have never heard of God.

He’s heard your cry and sent you a savior. You’ve resisted him.

He's not here. We are alone.

I don’t know. Here’s my invitation - please, you to tell me: Who is God? I‘ll compare your answer to the Messiah’s answer.

The creator of the universe and all living things. Is this not a description of the Christian God?

There’s always a reason why people are unable, and reasons vary from person to person. We’ve spent some time discussing and exploring yours.

Then why don't the reasons matter to God? If a person truly gives it their all, but just can't bring themselves to believe something, why is that worthy of a capital punishment?

It’s impossible to read the Bible - even with very little understanding - and come away saying that the Bible storyline is that the creator has abandoned his creation. The Bible storyline is one of restoration.

The creator isn’t absent. He is the God who is near. There’s no place we can go to escape his presence.

Did you hear about the shooting in Minneapolis recently? Christian children gunned down during a church service by another lunatic.

Where is your god during these times? All powerful. But he can't be bothered to lift a finger to help his worshippers. Instead he allows them to be slaughtered like animals.

And what do we hear from the Christians? Thoughts and prayers. Like clockwork. Well, I'm for thoughts. Thoughts like, banning AR15 rifles. I'm all for that. However, I condemn the prayers. We should not be praying to a god that allows this to happen. These children were literally prayibv when this occurred!

 

[Matthias]

What do you think that purpose is?

The linked article gives us four reasons. You don’t even have to read the article or open the link. They are listed in the summary description.

The Four Purposes of Man

God created man in His image, and for four basic purposes: to have fellowship with, to cultivate the garden, to be fruitful and multiply, and to rule over the earth and all that is in it. Man’s restoration will not be complete until all four of these purposes have been recovered. Our personal...

publications.morningstarministries.org

It's been a while since I've been to a church. So I can't say I'm familiar with it.

You sound exactly like the author.

Not all. There are some who have never heard of God.

Look at the heavens. Sagan did it and didn’t know what to do with it. He needed further instruction.

He's not here. We are alone.

There hasn’t been even a second when he has left us alone.

The creator of the universe and all living things. Is this not a description of the Christian God?

That’s a vague description. Jesus (and the Bible) are much more specific than that. Unless you can elaborate further on your answer the conclusion has to be that you don’t know who God is.

Then why don't the reasons matter to God?

They do.

If a person truly gives it their all, but just can't bring themselves to believe something, why is that worthy of a capital punishment?

Man can’t survive without God. God is immortal; man is mortal. Man is conditionally offered immortality. God has to do something with those who turn down the offer. We’ve already discussed what he will do with them.

Plain talk. You haven’t given it your all.

Did you hear about the shooting in Minneapolis recently? Christian children gunned down during a church service by another lunatic.

Where is your god during these times? All powerful. But he can't be bothered to lift a finger to help his worshippers. Instead he allows them to be slaughtered like animals.

And what do we hear from the Christians? Thoughts and prayers. Like clockwork. Well, I'm for thoughts. Thoughts like, banning AR15 rifles. I'm all for that. However, I condemn the prayers. We should not be praying to a god that allows this to happen. These children were literally prayibv when this occurred!

God created man with free will. Good and evil happens when man exercises free will.

You’ve said that God can’t be bothered to help his worshippers. That’s a false accusation of God. The question to ask is why he sometimes protects them from being slaughtered and why sometimes he doesn’t. The Bible contains many examples of both.

 

[Matthias]

There are some who have never heard of God.

Let’s get back to you. You have heard of God. God reveals himself in the Messiah.

 

[Riven]

Look at the heavens. Sagan did it and didn’t know what to do with it. He needed further instruction.

Sagan was honest. He threw up his hands and said I don't know. Hence his agnosticism. It is probably the most honest position to take given the circumstances.

That’s a vague description. Jesus (and the Bible) are much more specific than that. Unless you can elaborate further on your answer the conclusion has to be that you don’t know who God is.

Yahweh. The Jewish war god of the Old Testament. Who then takes the form of gentle Jesus in the New Testament. I'm in no positron to give an biography.

They do.

But they shouldn't. It's like punishing a cripple for not being able to walk.

Man can’t survive without God. God is immortal; man is mortal. Man is conditionally offered immortality. God has to do something with those who turn down the offer. We’ve already discussed what he will do with them.

God doesn't have to do anything. And again, it's not about turning down an offer. It's being unable to accept the offer.

Plain talk. You haven’t given it your all.

Fair enough. That's probably true.

God created man with free will. Good and evil happens when man exercises free will.

But do we truly have free will if God knows, even before we are conceived, which direction our lives will go? He knew I wouldn't be able to believe in the biblical stories, yet I'm to be judged for this.

If I can't do anything that contradicts God's prefect knowledge, then I can't possibly have free will, much less be judged for exercising it.

You’ve said that God can’t be bothered to help his worshippers. That’s a false accusation of God. The question to ask is why he sometimes protects them from being slaughtered and why sometimes he doesn’t. The Bible contains many examples of both.

It is not a false accusation, but a very true one. These people were butchered while worshipping the very same God that allowed them to die in vain. He allowed this horrific tragedy to unfold and the families to be ripped apart by grief for the rest of their lives.

There's only a mystery if you believe God exists, truly is all powerful, and still fails to stop evil acts from being carried out. Remove God from the equation, and it all makes sense. It's random violence in a random universe. Sometimes people are just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Let’s get back to you. You have heard of God. God reveals himself in the Messiah.

Of course. I went to a Christian school. I heard about him everyday.

 

[Matthias]

Yahweh. The Jewish war god of the Old Testament. Who then takes the form of gentle Jesus in the New Testament. I'm in no positron to give an biography.

Jesus himself isn’t Yahweh himself.

These people were butchered while worshipping the very same God that allowed them to die in vain.

They were worshipping the Triune God, not the Messiah’s God.

 

[Matthias]

Yahweh. The Jewish war god of the Old Testament. Who then takes the form of gentle Jesus in the New Testament. I'm in no positron to give an biography. …

I went to a Christian school. I heard about him everyday.

From my X / Twitter “For you” feed this evening -

“Messianic Judaism is the original. It predates Catholicism and all forms of Protestantism.”

(Rabbi Brian Samuel)

https://x.com/rabbriansamuel/status/1961590164423143866?s=61

Did they teach you that in school?

 

[Riven]

Jesus himself isn’t Yahweh himself.

That's not what thr Christians believe. They believe the father and the son are one.

They were worshipping the Triune God, not the Messiah’s God.

What is the Triune God?

 

[Matthias]

That's not what thr Christians believe.

I invite and encourage you to take 30 seconds of your time to listen to this Christian.

They believe the father and the son are one.

The Father and the Son are in fact one. We have that preserved in scripture from the mouth of Jesus himself.

What is the Triune God?

Not the God of Jewish monotheism. Not the God of the Messiah, whom you know and have rightly said was himself a Jewish monotheist.

 

[Riven]

I invite and encourage you to take 30 seconds of your time to listen to this Christian.

It's generally understood that wheb Jesus told the people, "before Abraham, I Am", --- he meant that he was God made flesh.

The Father and the Son are in fact one. We have that preserved in scripture from the mouth of Jesus himself.

But what does that mean?

Not the God of Jewish monotheism. Not the God of the Messiah, whom you know and have rightly said was himself a Jewish monotheist.

These were Catholics. An I to believe all of them worship a false god?

 

[Matthias]

It's generally understood that wheb Jesus told the people, "before Abraham, I Am", --- he meant that he was God made flesh.

I’ve dealt with this many times in many threads. In all of them, I’ve used trinitarian commentary to support my position.

But what does that mean?

It means, as the trinitarian commentary I’ve posted documents, that the Father and the Son - Yahweh and Jesus of Nazareth - are one in will and purpose. Those same commentaries will go on to say that the church later decreed that it also means that the Father and the Son are one in essence.

These were Catholics. An I to believe all of them worship a false god?

Jesus himself, as you know, isn’t a Catholic. He’s a Jewish monotheist. You also know that I’m a Jewish monotheist. (I’ve never attempted to conceal that fact from my readers.) His God, not their God, is my God.

I’m not going to tell you what you should believe. You have the facts and you have the ability to think. You’re going to have to decide for yourself what you believe.