The Wrath of God - How is it love?

[Hiddenthings]

Colossians 1:13-14
He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son, / in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Who is the us?

Colossians 2:13-15
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Again, its a message received and believed upon and only applies to those who were (past tense) dead in their sins.

When and where? At the cross IN Jesus. For who? All humanity.
Your belief in Jesus is your acknowledgement and gratitude. Your gratitude did not bring God's self sacrificing love into existence. It was there before the foundation of the World. It is revealed IN Jesus.

God's unfolding message of salvation began in Gen 3 and finishes when sin and death are finally swallowed up - but not all will enter New Jerusalem.

Does God leave himself without a witness in circumstances where men have not heard or understood? No no no no. His Spirit strives with all men and women through all ages. Because they haven't seen or understood this gift does this mean it's not theirs? Of course not.
Will they get to see it? I think yes. Examples would be, Noah, Abraham, Samson and the many mentioned in Hebrews 11....and no doubt many many others from the far flung corners of the Earth not mentioned....even from Pagan territories.

True, but not everyone.

Disqualification comes when with sustained defiance (just like Satan) men do not care, do not want and trample underfoot what has been freely given them and substitute their own ideas.
Death is preferable to them than facing 'the one who loved them and gave himself for them' .....as we see in Revelation 6:16
His love to/ for them is seen by them as being wrathful. Something dreadful and terrible has twisted their minds. They have been deceived.

Regardless of what you and I believe, "God knows those who are His" - the irony with the 2 Timothy 2:19 is that Paul is citing Moses' words in Num 16:5, re the rebellion of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.

And what do we learn of such a truth? “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

This recalls Numbers 16:26 (LXX): “Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men.” In that case, judgment fell by the hand of God Himself, not by Moses.

You see Quiet the same problem which Paul wrote to Timothy about is in this forum - we would be naive to consider otherwise!

How should Timothy fulfill his responsibilities in the household of God when opposition and false teaching were spreading?

Already men like Hymenaeus and Philetus were undermining the doctrine of the resurrection, unsettling the faith of some (2 Tim 2:17–18). It might have seemed as if the very foundations of truth were crumbling.

Should Timothy despair, abandon the fight, or flee like a hireling before wolves of rebellion, pride, and error?

Paul’s answer is emphatic: “Nevertheless [despite everything], the foundation of God stands firm” (v.19).

But how can we be sure of this? Paul points to the “seal,” the divine guarantee: Though men may corrupt, oppose, and twist the truth, they cannot overthrow it. “The Lord knows those who are His.” In His time, God Himself will deal with those who are not.

If we truly grasp that everything lies at all times in the hand of the Almighty, and that we ourselves are but small instruments in His vast purpose, then we will be delivered from that restless anxiety which produces rashness, harshness, and despair.

Some may believe confessing the name is not required
Some may even believe those who do are saved
Few will be found to have confessed the name of the Lord AND turned away from wickedness.

The Master's agony is known to them who do.

 

[quietthinker]

Who is the us?

All humanity...in particular, those who believe.

Again, it's a message received and believed upon and only applies to those who were (past tense) dead in their sins.

All are dead in their sins.

 

[Hiddenthings]

All humanity...in particular, those who believe.

True

All are dead in their sins.

Not if you are "in" Christ, there is no condemnation!

The "wages of sin is death" condemnation, no longer applies to those "found" to be in him....Romans 6

 

[Brakelite]

It is not up to us to decide what God should or should not do. God is the Creator, we are the created. His judgments are righteous and final, whether we understand them fully or not. The Bible is not vague about the reality of eternal punishment. Jesus Himself said in Matthew 25:46, “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.” The same word for “everlasting” (Greek: aiōnios) is used for both punishment and life, meaning if life is forever, then so is the punishment. Revelation 14:11 says, “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever, and they have no rest day nor night.” That is not symbolic, that is a direct and horrifying truth. God does not torment for no reason; He punishes sin justly, and His holiness demands it.

Eternal punishment doesn’t mean God failed to resolve sin. On the contrary, He provided the only solution, Jesus Christ. John 3:36 says, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life, and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.” The problem is not that God hasn’t made a way, it’s that people reject that way. Hebrews 10:29 warns us about those who trample underfoot the Son of God and insult the Spirit of grace. That is not a light offense, it deserves righteous judgment.
Whether we think eternal torment is “pointless” doesn’t matter. The point is not our opinion, it’s God’s Word, and He has spoken clearly.

The Bible is actually quite straight forward when it comes to the ultimate punishment for sin. "The wages of sin is death". It repeats that same idea many many times, in both old and new testaments, combining it with punishment, eternal, oblivion, destruction. Why are so many opposed to what scripture says? "The sinner, he shall die". Death does not mean, nor can it ever mean, eternal life. Which is what eternal torment is. Whether it's suffering, torment, is still living beings living forever in a state of pain and suffering. That is not nor could it ever be construed to mean death.

 

[Behold]

Of course you have your hoops. How many are in the collection now?

Are you a Jehovah's Witness or a Universalist ??? .... as they both deny that a person has to be born again on earth before you die, if you want to go to Heaven.

Jesus loves me this I know for the bible tells me so.

"Jesus came into the world to save sinners".

God loves everyone, but only the CHRISTian... only the Born again, go to heaven.

Jesus said,,,,,,"you must be born again", and that is not water baptism, and its not a "hoop".
Its a fact.

 

[quietthinker]

Are you a Jehovah's Witness or a Universalist ??? .... as they both deny that a person has to be born again on earth before you die, if you want to go to Heaven.




"Jesus came into the world to save sinners".

God loves everyone, but only the CHRISTian... only the Born again, go to heaven.

Jesus said,,,,,,"you must be born again", and that is not water baptism, and its not a "hoop".
Its a fact.

Do you even know what born again means Behold ?

 

[Jack]

Of course you have your hoops. How many are in the collection now?

Jesus loves me this I know for the bible tells me so.
I guess my immaturity which gives hope and peace refuses the piling up hoop jumping exercises!

But you said you don't believe Jesus!

Luke 17:26-27
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

 

[pandaflower]

Are you a Jehovah's Witness or a Universalist ??? .... as they both deny that a person has to be born again on earth before you die, if you want to go to Heaven.




"Jesus came into the world to save sinners".

God loves everyone, but only the CHRISTian... only the Born again, go to heaven.

Jesus said,,,,,,"you must be born again", and that is not water baptism, and its not a "hoop".
Its a fact.

The false teacher,Brad Jersak, he earlier referenced is a Universalist .

For all we know,he could be that person.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus was murdered by wicked men at the behest of demons.

Wow.

Actually, QT is right.....Jesus had already condemned the religious leaders as being “from their father the devil”, (John 8:44) and it was they who orchestrated Christ’s murder. They were bound for “Gehenna” (Matt 23:33)
When Jesus asked his Father to “forgive them...for they know not what they do”, he was not speaking about the wicked men who forced Pilate to accede to their demands, but about the Roman soldiers who actually drove in the nails and hoisted him up on the execution stake to die in cruel Roman fashion.

Since giving his life did not have to be a drawn out and painful torture, only one source could have made his death as painful as possible, and that was the wicked spirits operating in the background, just as they do today to get people all stirred up over what appears to them to be apostasy, when the actual apostates were the ones doing the dirty work.

What are true Christians having to deal with in this time of the end? The very same powers of evil are still very active.
The apostle Paul tells us....

Eph 6:11-12 ESV.....
“Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.”

Do we see who is guiding the rulers and authorities who govern us? It is “the cosmic powers”....”the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places”.
This is why Jesus warned us not to be “part of the world”....because of who is its real ruler....no matter what nation we live in, the devil has “the whole world” under his control. (1 John 5:19)

 

[St. SteVen]

The false teacher,Brad Jersak, he earlier referenced is a Universalist .

For all we know,he could be that person.

Why would you call Brad Jersak a false teacher?

Have you seen the gospel in chairs video?

[

 

[quietthinker]

The false teacher,Brad Jersak, he earlier referenced is a Universalist .

For all we know,he could be that person.

The fact that you short circuit in your mind by labelling (the validity of that label in your mind allows you to negate thinking objectively) creates fertile soil for all manner of justification.....whether it be thoughts, conclusions or actions.

 

[Behold]

Actually, QT is right.....Jesus had already condemned the religious leaders as being “from their father the devil”,

All unbelievers, who are never born again... are "of their father the devil".

This is why they ALL end up in Hell, that was "created for the DEVIL, and his angels".

Whereas, a Christian.......has been born again by a NEW Spiritual Father..= GOD., and this is why He is their Heavenly Father.
He has birthed them as "born again"..

So, If you are never born again, then the DEVIL remains ...= '" You are of YOUR FATHER THe DEVIL", and you will end up in Hell that was created for Him.
Its where His spiritual children all end up, initially.

Therefor.....When Jesus says......"You must be born again".......= He is explaining that to go to Heaven, you have to become born again by GOD.........so that HE becomes your literal spiritual Father.

Since giving his life did not have to be a drawn out and painful torture, only one source could have made his death as painful as possible,

The OT had already prophecied how Jesus would be sacrificed, long before Jesus showed up.

This is why Jesus warned us not to be “part of the world”...

The way you actually become set apart from the world is to be born again.

 

[quietthinker]

The way you actually become set apart from the world is to be born again.

Did you say you did a course for certification or was it purchased on eBay at discount?

 

[Behold]

Did you say you did a course for certification or was it purchased on eBay at discount?

You posted another weak minded personal attack, because you are not equipped to prove anything you believe.
Same as next time..

 

[quietthinker]

You posted another weak minded personal attack, because you are not equipped to prove anything you believe.
Same as next time..

or is your projection a defence mechanism because you refuse to or can't answer my questions

 

[pandaflower]

The fact that you short circuit in your mind by labelling (the validity of that label in your mind allows you to negate thinking objectively) creates fertile soil for all manner of justification.....whether it be thoughts, conclusions or actions.

Feel better?

Your false doctrine push is concerning. That you now plumb to the depths thinking you are insulting my intellect with that posting only reiterates the fact you have now warned everyone who still reads you to pray attention,be warned, and counter your falsehoods at every opportunity .

You live them!

Don't expect any indwelt Christian on God's Earth to believe you!

When God tells us not to!


Go ahead,throw another bomb. Show more of what you really are.

 

[quietthinker]

Feel better?

Your false doctrine push is concerning. That you now plumb to the depths thinking you are insulting my intellect with that posting only reiterates the fact you have now warned everyone who still reads you to pray attention,be warned, and counter your falsehoods at every opportunity .

You live them!

Don't expect any mindset Christian on God's Earth to believe you!

When God tells us not to!


Go ahead,throw another bomb. Show more of what you really are.

You see them as bombs instead of prompts to consider what is said.

 

[pandaflower]

Why would you call Brad Jersak a false teacher?

Have you seen the gospel in chairs video?

[

Have you read his testimony,

Why I Don’t Think I’ll Claim To Be Christian ?​

 

[pandaflower]

You see them as bombs instead of prompts to consider what is said.

You posted garbage. Thinking it served as an insult I'd take personally. Instead,you insulted yourself.

Care to stop while you're behind?

 

[quietthinker]

Feel better?

Your false doctrine push is concerning. That you now plumb to the depths thinking you are insulting my intellect with that posting only reiterates the fact you have now warned everyone who still reads you to pray attention,be warned, and counter your falsehoods at every opportunity .

You live them!

Don't expect any indwelt Christian on God's Earth to believe you!

When God tells us not to!


Go ahead,throw another bomb. Show more of what you really are.

Did you watch Brad's 'Gospel in Chairs' presentation?