My statement in that post#194 below was pretty straightforward...
"And of course, the REBUKE happens while the sinner REFUSES to admit their sin and not repent, and make a change."
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My statement in that post#194 below was pretty straightforward...
"And of course, the REBUKE happens while the sinner REFUSES to admit their sin and not repent, and make a change."
PS95
Well-Known Member
Really? Now I'm confused. I wasn't aware. Is there something else they call it because most Christians do confess/repent but also believe they can not lose salvation. You're right- Behold takes issue with them as well. He insists he can not "sin"<-- so only that is OSAS?
So what is the term for the other belief- they seem to say a person who leaves the faith was never truly saved and they do confess/repent?
That's not osas?
As opposed to someone who believes a person can lose salvation if they deny the faith or practice sin and never repent?
Or am I mixed up?
Yes, the actual OSAS doctrine is about those who believe they will be saved 'regardless' of their future sin. That's the base of the doctrine.
It then turned into the additional ideas that therefore, since future sin no longer exists, then there's no more need for repentance nor asking forgiveness of sin. In their minds, to continue to do that means not trusting Christ had the power to remit sins at the cross in the first place, so they treat repentance and asking forgiveness of future sin almost as blasphemy against Christ.
That's just an 'excuse' they came up with. An example they claim that for is the five foolish virgins that Jesus showed He will close the door upon in Matthew 25. They try to claim those were not real believers in the first place. They claim that because of the false OSAS doctrine, because if they admit those 5 foolish virgins were... believers at the start, then it would negate their false OSAS doctrine.
Nevertheless, all 10 virgins in that parable given by Lord Jesus do... all represent believers on Him. And it shows that a believer on Jesus Christ can... fall away. And what did Lord Jesus show how... those 5 virgins fell away from Him? He showed it by their wrongly believing they could go to the 'market' and BUY the Oil (which the Oil represents The Holy Spirit). The 5 wise virgins had the Oil in their lamps PLUS a spare vessel of the Oil.
That spare vessel of the Oil to me represents being on the "strong meat" of God's Word instead of staying on the "milk" of God's Word (Hebrews 5). There are more brethren in the Churches that are still sucking on the "milk" of The Word of God when they should have become teachers and on the "strong meat" of God's Word, which the "strong meat" means a deeper Bible understanding. Instead they keep going around in circles in The Bible like a new babe. Nor does just being able to teach the "milk" mean one is on the "strong meat".
If you understand 1 John 1, and Luke 11, then you shouldn't ever get mixed up on this matter.
There were dead bodies raised at the resurrection but not ALL were raised bodily. That's how God HIDES things from the wisdom of the world and only reveals it to his people that believe every single word in the bible as written.
The dead bodies being raised serve two purposes, 1) To conceal what the true resurrection is and 2) So that the men of Nineveh would rise up in judgement against the people of Israel.
If you will believe the bible for exactly what it says and not twist MANY to mean a multitude like newer translation do and most everybody who studies this does, you will see the exact same thing Daniel said would happen, happened at the crucifixion.
Daniel 12:2 says MANY (not all) awake. Matthew 27:52. says MANY but not ALL that slept arose. These two passages say EXACTLY the same thing.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Matthew 27:52 (KJV):
"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,"
This has been my experience on this. People who believe like you do (I used to too), MANY in Daniel means EVERY SINGLE ONE but in Matthew MANY only means some but not all.
I can't make it any clearer than that.
But the Daniel 12:2 verse does actually mean 'all', pointing to the future resurrection of both the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" per John 5:28-29 on the day of Jesus' future return. Note the John 5:28 verse says ALL in the graves.
The manuscript word for "many" in that Dan.12:2 verse is from a root word that can mean 'tens of thousands', like an expression, an indeterminable number (similar like Jude 14 with the quote from Enoch about Christ's future coming with ten thousands of His saints.
And the idea of sleep in the dust is just an expression for flesh death.
PS95
Well-Known Member
gotcha. I thought it was 2 different beliefs from the start not one that morphed into another.
They do not agree on confessing and they do not say that someone who lives unfaithfully the rest of their lives is still saved. So they are very different from each other IMO.
They believe that we have no security if we disagree- I do know I am secure. No one can snatch me. As John taught- we may know we have eternal life- I don't live in fear or trying to keep my salvation- that's stupid. I love the Lord because He first loved me and taught me what love is with His own life. He made me love Him. Because I love Him, I want to obey Him- he changed my heart from a thoughtless loving my sinful heart to one that loves him and hates sin and desires to please him with my life. I see everything differently and have different desires now. None of that is of me. It's all of Him. He works within us.
Can I choose to ditch all of that? I don't think I am now a puppet.. I can still choose my course.
I trust Him to keep me and as I do, He strengthens me and shows me things. I still mess up and He forgives me by His blood when I confess it. I am glad that He convicts me now. I did not use to feel convicted nor did I care.
Why would I want to throw any of that away? So as long as I abide in His love I am perfectly saved.
I don't know if I left gaps there but's pretty much how I see it.
Feel free to correct me.
It's simple. Both OSAS and NOSAS are true. Though, OSAS means once saved always saved, we cannot apply that universally to everyone saved. That's where the mistake is, applying OSAS to every single confessed saved person. It then contradicts that some confessed saved ppl fall away instead, thus NOSAS. Therefore, how both OSAS and NOSAS can be true and not be a contradiction. It is only a contradiction if OSAS can be applied to every single confessed saved person without exception, which it can't, since there is such a thing as falling away, which then equals NOSAS in that case, not OSAS.
PS95
Well-Known Member
gramatically only, does many mean many but not all or many as in a great multitude
ChatGPT said:
Grammatically speaking, the word "many" in English — and also in the original Hebrew in Daniel 12:2 — generally means:
And what you said above, therein lies today's specific problem for the END of this world for many brethren. What I refer to is the future coming of the Antichrist/false-Messiah who will play The Christ, and many brethren are going to 'fall away' to that false one their being deceived. In this situation, they certainly will still have believed on Lord Jesus and think they are saved, like you are saying above, yet not be aware who that coming false-Messiah really is. Apostle Paul called that future deception the "strong delusion" in 2 Thessalonians 2. Lord Jesus warned us about that event for the END of this world in Matthew 24:23-26, as did Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, and Christ again through His Apostle John in Revelation 13:11 forward. This has been one of the major warnings about the End of this world that I have been trying to show brethren.
That's why God left us multiple Bible witnesses for a matter in His Word. Like I said, the John 5:28 Scripture, which is Lord Jesus speaking, says ALL in the graves will hear His voice and come forth at the resurrection. That John 5:28-29 Scripture conflicts with men's doctrine about the inferred 2nd resurrection of the wicked in Revelation 20 which most Churches hold to. They wrongly interpret "the dead" of Revelation 20:5 to mean people still in the grave when John 5:28-29 shows no one is left in the grave after Jesus' 2nd coming.
Most churches are wrong on about 99 percent of everything they teach and believe.
Revelation 20:4 and 5 is the first resurrection, meaning the resurrection of the just.
Verse 4 is the dead in Christ (Old Testament believers) at the resurrection of Christ. They were raised to eternal life in glorified bodies.
Verse 5 is all who will come to Christ from the cross forward. Those are raised to eternal when they accept Christ and are given glorified bodies when the earthly body dies.
No way I could ever agree to that. You sound like you have an agenda against the Churches.
The last phrase of Rev.20:5 is NOT about "the dead" in the first part of that verse.
Rev 20:5
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
KJV
That mention of the "first resurrection" is about those of the verse prior, Rev.20:4. The idea of verse 5 that the dead didn't live again until after the thousand years is about an inferred 2nd resurrection unto Eternal Life through Christ. That's what type of resurrection the "first resurrection" is, it's one unto Christ. The inferred 2nd one is also. And once the concept of flesh death is over at Christ's future return per John 5:28-29, the idea of "lived not again" is only about eternal Life in Christ. That might be a bit difficult for some to understand, but that is what that verse is pointing to.
But what is most often taught about those "rest of the dead lived not again until..." is that they remain in graves throughout the "thousand years", and are only resurrected to stand judgment at God's Great White Throne Judgment only in order to be sentenced to perish in the "lake of fire". That idea conflicts with what Jesus showed in John 5:28-29, so those most often just reject what Jesus said there.
PS95
Well-Known Member
They are taught that they will be raptured before that occurs ,right? I have never swallowed that. It's just not there. I believe though that many sincere believers who do think that way about the rapture- will come to their senses- after all If the Holy Spirit is in them they will be led. They need to always trust Christ and not man. We always need to pray for discernment. It will be tricky for the elect but Jesus wont fail those who are His .-- That's how I see it.
Jesus said this- Matt 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
This does not describe believers imo.
2 Thes 2:9-12
The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, 10and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. 11For this reason God will send them a powerful delusion so that they believe the lie, 12in order that judgment may come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.
1 Cor 1;18, 2 Cor 2;15, 2 Cor 4:3. Acts 2:47
Earburner
Well-Known Member
Have you never read John 11:26??
Or are you being wilfully ignorant about it?John 11
[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Absolutely not! Lord Jesus showed that His future return will be AFTER the tribulation, as written in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, and even by Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2.
Our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ will... test us, to see who we will follow. He warned us against falling away to a false-Messiah at the End of this world for that future generation, so that we have no excuse.
However, the majority of brethren don't study all their Bible, nor can they understand because they have chosen to instead trust in 'man', and not in God and His Word. They have been brainwashed by the world's standards, looking up with more respect of those with titles and degrees on the end of their names, those who dress nice, speak nice, like how Israel deceived itself per Isaiah 30:8-13...
Isa 30:8-13
8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
10 Which say to the seers, "See not"; and to the prophets, "Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us."
12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
KJV
Many brethren like to claim... they trust in God and His Word, yet look at how many that believe that false Pre-trib Rapture doctrine which is NOT written anywhere in God's Word? Who are they putting their trust in with that falseness? In man, and those very well may pay a steep penalty for it by our Lord Jesus when He returns.
Most instead are only 'playing religion', and don't really understand the reality that God's Word is the key to understanding all things about this world, the previous world before Satan rebelled, and the world to come.
Look up how Dr. Strong in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defined that Greek word for "false Christs" there in Matthew 24:24. Notice also the Matthew 24:23 and Matthew 24:26 verses are in the 'singular' tense. That's Christ's warning about the singular "antichrist" that Apostle John said the brethren had already heard shall come. In the Matthew 24:5 verse Jesus is pointing to John's "many antichrists" already at work idea.
But it is about believers on Jesus, deceived believers though. That is who Paul is especially pointing to in 2 Thess.2:3 about the great falling away (apostasy). The non-believer will be included in that "strong delusion" also, but they don't 'fall away' since they aren't believers on Jesus Christ.
I tell you, this stuff that some Churches wrongly preach that a believer on Jesus Christ can never... fall away, is their preaching their 'own' doctrine, for that is not written in God's Word. Just the opposite is taught by Lord Jesus, and by Apostle Paul, and Apostle Peter, and Apostle John, etc. The New Testament Books give Christ's servants many... warnings against falling away towards the END.
A MYSTERY:
Per Lord Jesus in Matthew 13, what did He answer when His disciples asked Him why He spoke to the multitudes in parables? Jesus told His disciples that they were blessed, because to them was given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to the multitudes, it is NOT given.
The matter is that not all peoples are given to understand The Bible and what this present world is really about, nor about what is soon to come at the end of this world. They have not received the LOVE of the Truth, like Paul said. Do you remember Jesus said if you stay in His Word, you will know the Truth, and the Truth will make you free? (John 8:31-32). That means receiving the LOVE of the Truth so you are ever aware of Christ's enemies that try to creep in and take it from you, like the fowls that eat up the seed in Christ's sower parable. There are many ways they use to take away God's Truth from one's understanding.
That's just in regards to this present material world. When brethren start trying to consider that other dimension of the Heavenly, they become lost, because God's written Word is the only True Source that describes it. And most have difficulty with Bible study on that matter, kind of like Nicodemus of John 3. They don't understand how God's Word contains some very deep and profound parables that cover events that happened in the previous world prior to this present one, nor how those parables of the past help define many Bible prophecies still yet future to our world, and about the world to come.
Of course I have read and understood that!
But I have ALSO read and understood other Bible Scripture given by Lord Jesus...
Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
KJV
Matt 25:10-13
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us."
12 But he answered and said, "Verily I say unto you, I know you not."
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
KJV
Luke 13:25-30
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, "Lord, Lord, open unto us"; and he shall answer and say unto you, "I know you not whence ye are:"
26 Then shall ye begin to say, "We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets."
27 But he shall say, "I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity."
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
KJV
Those are about BELIEVERS ON JESUS CHRIST. Their problem is that while they preached Christ (meaning to to prophesy), and did many wonderful works in Christ, they still practiced iniquity. And what is a major INIQUITY taught is OK in some Churches today? Homosexuality. Christ's Messages in Revelation to the seven Churches in Asia is a lot of what that subject is about. Yet there were only 2 Churches He had no rebuke for, which one should pay attention to what they were doing and following.
Therefore, we are not... to just pull ONE VERSE out of God's written Word and omit the rest of God's Word. If you did that with constructing a sky scraper, and left out an important foundation step, it could cause the whole building to collapse. So why do that with God's written Word, which is a whole lot more important?
PS95
Well-Known Member
So you are saying that pre trib are not taught that they will be raptured before the 2nd coming? HUH? I think maybe you didn't comprehend my meaning.. I don't think that. But yes, they are taught that and their teachers w ill be held accountable.
Pray for all of them.
Those pre-trib rapture doctors have you confused. The "caught up" event of 1 Thess.4:17 that Apostle Paul taught happens AT Christ's 2nd coming. There is only ONE more coming by Lord Jesus Christ, not three or four.
How many advents (comings) of Christ does the following prophecy propose?
Zech 9:9-10
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
KJV
Verse 9 above was about Christ's 1st coming.
Verse 10 is about Christ's 2nd coming.
Do you see a coming in between His 1st and 2nd coming there, which the pre-trib rapture doctors claim? No! You do not. That because there is no such idea written anywhere in God's Word. There are only TWO COMINGS by Christ written in God's Word. A rapture prior to the "great tribulation", which is false, represents a 'coming' by Christ. The pre-trib rapture doctors separate that from the 2nd coming while, believe it or not, they USE Scripture for their rapture timing that IS about the 2nd coming. For example, the pre-trib doctors try to claim the "day of the Lord" is the "great tribulation" timing, but it is not per God's written Word. The "day of the Lord" is the LAST DAY of this present world, and the day of Christ's 2nd coming.
Now if you don't understand my meaning by that, then I suggest you back up and quit listening to Pre-trib Rapture preachers, and instead get more into your Bible for yourself, asking God's help, so you will be able to check out what your preachers are teaching.
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