The Wrath of God - How is it love?

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Jack

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Ohhhh, when you said 'my fairytale imagination' I thought for a moment maybe I got my description about God frying folk wrong. Perhaps you thought he was lining them up for tea and scones? .....but no, unfortunately you have confirmed my original suspicions in your post above .....and your understanding of everlasting fire means more than the tea being too hot....and more in line with my original description seeing you often use the word tortured in conjunction with the everlasting fire.
You will soon believe in the "EVERLASTING" Hell fire. Everybody will. So now, who told you all that. I quoted Jesus. Who are you quoting? You maybe? I love quoting Jesus!

Matthew 13:49-50
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Wake up! The time is at hand!
 

indentured servant

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How can you say that love and wrath are NOT a contradiction?
If those are the only choices you allow for yourself to compare, then perhaps, but only to you, they do contradict.

Please forgive me for answering, I thought the question posed was to challenge misconceptions of Scripture, not create them.

I view your comments regarding God's "lower standards" as blasphemous, and I sincerely cannot continue this discussion.

I do ask, politely, that you allow me to exit this conversation without making this a personality clash.

I have said all that needed to be said, thank you.
 
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pandaflower

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Is this what you are referring to? Where's the problem?
Did you read anything past the headline?

Why I Don't Think I'll Claim To Be Christian - Brad Jersak​

In 1972, I came to belief in Christ and consciously prayed for God's saving grace to come into my life. I was baptized on the confession of my faith in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Later, was welcomed into membership at Calvary Baptist Church. After transferring membership to Bethel Mennonite Church, I also went on staff and was ordained as a Reverend by the Conference of Mennonites in BC. My ordination was also recognized by the Christian Ministers Association after we planted Fresh Wind Christian Fellowship. Many moons later, I was chrismated into the Eastern Orthodox Church (again, upon confession of the Symbol of Faith) and later, was ordained as a Reader.

None of this allows me to claim to be Christian. Many who say, 'Lord, Lord' will prove to be strangers before Christ on the Last Day.

During the course of these assorted ministries, I prophesied in Jesus' name, cast out demons (or at least thought I did) in Jesus' name, even did the odd wonder in Jesus' name. Taught in his name, evangelized in his name, pastored in his name, counseled in his name, prayed in his name.

None of this allows me to claim to be Christian. Many who serve 'In his name,' will prove to be strangers before Christ on the Last Day.

The stubborn fact is that it not by our claims, but by our fruit that Jesus recognizes living faith. Nor will the fruit he seeks be our spiritual pedigree or our relentless religiosity. It seems that he will actually be looking for the fruit of the grace of the Holy Spirit in our lives, whatever that means.

Claiming the fruit does not allow me to claim to be Christian. Only bearing the fruit will count on the last day.

The fruit of the grace of God's spirit cannot grow from the flesh of self-righteousness, striving or zeal. It can only grow on branches grafted to the Tree of Life, the Cross of Christ. Paul sure knew this:


I have never renounced my prayers of faith for grace; I have never renounced my baptism or confession or ordination; I have never renounced my faith in the good news of Christ. I still love Jesus, preach the good news and occasionally find the grace to surrender to his transforming love.

None of this allows me to claim to be Christian.

While Christ warns us not to disown him before men, let he disown us before his Father (Matt. 10:33) ... and this I will not do. As my friend Sean says, 'neither brashly presuming nor cowardly denying.' For me, that's a given. Giving up my self-claims are not a repudiation of my Christ-claims. Not identifying as a Christian is not the same as dissociating from Christ before men. The latter does matter.



I know some readers value those great lists about our identity in Christ.They usually start with something like "I am a child of God. I am the righteousness of Christ ..." (and yes, there are ample biblical proof-texts for each claim).

"I am, I am, I am..." It feels a little too close to either Jesus' 'I am' statements in John or Satan's (supposedly) 'I will' statements in Isaiah 14. What's with the obsession with 'I' and 'MY' identity? In the Gospels, the real question was Christ's identity ... 'Who do you say that I AM?' As well intentioned as these identity lists are for people who feel like they never measure up, I can't help but think they reinforce that very problem. Maybe somehow theologically or ontologically, we want to positively claim our identity in Christ so ... why? So we'll act better? So we'll remember how we should be living but aren't? Or don't need to live because of some magic imputation in heaven?

None of this allows me to claim to be Christian.

So I won't. It seems that our self-claims to faith have actually done a great deal of harm. The politician, the businessman, the evangelist ... when do they ever claim to be Christian when it's not about trying to build the base or sign the contract or take the offering? Can you think of one reason why we would even bring it up that does not have something to do with establishing leverage for ourselves? The claim, "I'm a Christian" seems to preface all manner of intolerance, bigotry and fraud. Perhaps it raises suspicion for good reason. We used to use the fish symbol to identify other believers secretly in times of persecution. Now we use it on our business cards to ... what? Let others know that I would never overcharge them or fail to make a payment or break a contract? Perhaps worldly judges should hold us to that?

At first I thought, claims to my Christian faith are not up to me; they are up to other people who observe me. Let them perceive by my fruit whether I am Christian or not. Claim nothing. Let the jury decide.

But the problem with that is the jury is generally misinformed and unqualified. Claiming that I am Christian or not for me is above their pay grade too. Their verdict for or against, their claim that I am or am not Christian ... strike it from the court record. His Honor alone knows the heart and has explicitly forbidden us from taking his seat. For a Christian to sit in the seat of judgment is, by definition, an oxymoron, since Christ himself issued a direct command against it. Francis was right: "Who am I to judge?"

Of course, I could cite those who claim I am a wonderful Christian ... practically a saint! But if I present their case to those I've hurt or offended through the years, they would truthfully and utterly falsify the claim. They could present solid evidence that I'm a hypocrite. And I could also cite those who say I'm a false teacher or a deceiver, but presented before the right collection of friends and colleagues, those accusations would be washed away, either by counter-evidence or at least by grace and love. No, friends and foes alike have insufficient evidence to condemn or congratulate our faith as hypocrisy or holiness. They can say mean things or pay great homage, but none of this allows me to claim to be Christian.

The apostle is clear: there is one Judge who can discern the fruit from the false. And He's not saying just yet. If there's fruit that lasts, it will be the fruit of grace alone, Christ alone. Not my claims or yours. John 1 says that those who receive Christ have the right to be called 'children of God' ... but it doesn't say, 'I have the right to call myself ...' It means that God will be righteous in calling us his children because of grace alone, Christ alone.

In the mean time, until further notice, I don't think I'll claim to be Christian. I've been given a different task: sharing the good news that God is love and that love looks exactly like Jesus.

Thought experiment: what if every time we felt the urge to claim to be Christian, we said that instead. To our neighbors: "God is love and that love looks exactly like Jesus." Our Christian neighbors, who might agree but are often waiting for the 'but ...' statements which divide us. Or our poor neighbors, for whom Jesus and the prophets made some claims on us. Or our gay neighbors, many of whom would agree and would surely welcome any change from bigotry. Or our Muslim neighbors, who might not agree but would certainly appreciate that more than hate-filled fear-mongering. And so on.

My point is that we might do well to take a break from claims of Christianity for ourselves (or our nation!) and refocus them on God's Christlike love, thus coming under that grace ourselves. Lord knows we all need it.

SOURCE LINK

[
Yes, of course I've read it.
 

pandaflower

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No. But I think I know what he is saying.
I'm not comfortable with the label "Christian" either.

I'm familiar enough with him to know that he's a solid believer.


[
Ah,more references to labels.

Our society has become quite silly.
 

pandaflower

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But it didn’t have to end as it did...it wasn’t planned, but planned for. There were several outcomes that could have taken place because of free will. God planned for all contingencies, so that whatever the humans chose to do, he was prepared for it.

What if the devil had thought twice about his plan to hijack the human race for his own selfish ends and decided not to go through with it?

What if the woman had rejected the devil’s temptation and refused to eat the forbidden fruit?

What if Adam had rejected his wife’s offer of the fruit and sided with his God instead?

Sin is said to have entered into the world through the man...not the devil or the woman. Can you tell me why? (Rom 5:12)

Sin only pre-existed Eden as a concept.....not a reality. The devil was the first sinner, but he was not in heaven at the time. He was a covering cherub with guardianship duties in Eden, observing all that transpired, and he began contemplating something that he should not have....(James 1:13-15)
Of course it was planned.

God chose to plant a tree in Eden's garden and then forbid its even being touched or eaten of.
 

St. SteVen

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God chose to plant a tree in Eden's garden and then forbid its even being touched or eaten of.
--- PARODY ---

Serpent: Did God really say... ?
Eve: He said don't eat and don't touch.
Adam: Oops, my bad, I said don't touch.
Eve: What?! God didn't say that? !!!
Adam: No, I added that because I know you
like to touch things without thinking.
Eve: So, you don't trust me? !!!
Adam: I'm looking out for our best interests. My job.
Eve: I see.
Serpent: Are you going to eat, or not? !!!
Eve: Let me check with the boss. - LOL
Adam: Scram serpent!
Serpent: Hiss... (walks away dejected)
Eve: Hey, let's check out that other tree.
Adam: Good idea!

Indeed.

[
 

pandaflower

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I took what he said to you as a cautionary statement.

[
You should read his defense of his belief system.
In short,he's not a bible believing Christian.
Nor is his buddy Brad.

Oops,there's those pesky labels again . Bible believing. Christian.

Where's the White Out so I can hide those other labels and be ever so PC?

"Messiah", "Savior", "Redeemer", "Lamb of God". Soooo many labels. Terrible. Just terrible.


hmmx1:
 
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Aunty Jane

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Of course it was planned.
A careful reading of the Genesis account shows us what God planned for the humans that he created to live on earth forever. Not just that humankind would live forever, but every individual had that prospect.

Only when a rebel spirit had planted seeds of doubt in the woman’s mind (she being a new arrival on the scene and therefore not yet fully educated by her family head) she took on board what the serpent said, and it seemed right to her, so in spite of what Adam had taught her about the trees in the garden, the tree that God had claimed as his own property, now looked like something that would benefit them, so she ate....and when death did not occur swiftly, she offered some to her husband.

If it was all planned then there would have been no need for the presence of the two trees that God singled out for their attention. Any tree could have been used to test out their obedience, because that is what it was all about.....God had those choices there in the garden because their choice to obey him would have resulted in access to the other tree which would give them everlasting life.

Gen 3:22-24...
“Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.” (ESV)

Disobedience is what caused them to be evicted from the garden, and access to “the tree of life” was denied, with cherubs posted as sentries to make sure that they could not re-enter their former home.
Death would then gradually engulf the human race with no way to redeem themselves.

This is where the rescue mission comes in. God provided the means to bail them out of their own predicament. Not to redeem Adam and his wife, as they sinned with no basis for forgiveness, and not a single word of remorse for what they had done. There was only resignation as they lived with the consequences of their actions. The rescue mission would save Adam’s children, born into this situation through no fault on their part. They did not get off to a good start, demonstrating the power of sin....within one generation a pre-meditated murderer was produced. And it was all downhill from then on.

The apostle Paul well describes the human condition and his hope of rescue....
Rom 7:21-25...
“So I find it to be a law that, when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched person that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I am enslaved to the law of God, but with my flesh I am enslaved to the law of sin.”

God chose to plant a tree in Eden's garden and then forbid its even being touched or eaten of.

The TKGE was not a tree with poisonous fruit...and that was the test. It represented God’s Sovereign right to set the limits of the freedom that he gave them. A rather simple test of obedience. It was the only tree that God claimed as his own.

Free will was a gift but it was conditional, as was life itself. In order to keep living, the humans had to follow the rules that were set by their Creator. How many rules were there to follow? Just one. And it created no difficulty for them whatsoever. God had provided so abundantly for these humans, as he had for all the creatures that would share life with them on this planet, that there was no reason to step outside the very reasonable boundaries that he set. Everlasting life in paradise on earth was set before them, and there would have been no knowledge of evil in their lives. If you don’t know evil, you won’t practice it.

It was satan who had the plan and as a free willed son of God, he too had his loyalty and obedience tested. Only with the creation of lower, intelligent, spiritually minded creatures, could satan’s own ambitions be realised. Up to that point, Satan was one of God’s spirit sons who had a position of responsibility but not power. He was stationed in Eden as a guardian...a position that is assigned to cherubs, as we see that once the humans were evicted, cherubs were again used to guard the way back to the garden.

If you just read the story, the Bible reveals it’s own truth. It doesn’t need window dressing.
 

bdavidc

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The Bible is actually quite straight forward when it comes to the ultimate punishment for sin. "The wages of sin is death". It repeats that same idea many many times, in both old and new testaments, combining it with punishment, eternal, oblivion, destruction. Why are so many opposed to what scripture says? "The sinner, he shall die". Death does not mean, nor can it ever mean, eternal life. Which is what eternal torment is. Whether it's suffering, torment, is still living beings living forever in a state of pain and suffering. That is not nor could it ever be construed to mean death.
Yes, “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6: 23), but the Bible is specific about what death means. In Revelation 20: 14–15, it says, “This is the second death… whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” This is not some nonexistence. A chapter earlier, it says, “They shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

You ask, “Why are so many opposed to what Scripture says?” The truth is, you are the one opposing it. You’re quoting one part of Scripture while ignoring the passages that speak of death as eternal conscious punishment. Jesus Himself said in Matthew 25: 46 that both the punishment and the life are aiōnios, the exact same word for everlasting. If one is forever, then so is the other. Revelation 14: 11 speaks of no cessation: “The smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever, and they have no rest day nor night.”

Scripture never teaches annihilation. It teaches conscious judgment. God’s holiness demands justice and He has already provided the means of escape through Christ. The real problem is not that Scripture is vague, but that you’re refusing to accept all of it.
 

pandaflower

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A careful reading of the Genesis account shows us what God planned for the humans that he created to live on earth forever. Not just that humankind would live forever, but every individual had that prospect.

Only when a rebel spirit had planted seeds of doubt in the woman’s mind (she being a new arrival on the scene and therefore not yet fully educated by her family head) she took on board what the serpent said, and it seemed right to her, so in spite of what Adam had taught her about the trees in the garden, the tree that God had claimed as his own property, now looked like something that would benefit them, so she ate....and when death did not occur swiftly, she offered some to her husband.

If it was all planned then there would have been no need for the presence of the two trees that God singled out for their attention. Any tree could have been used to test out their obedience, because that is what it was all about.....God had those choices there in the garden because their choice to obey him would have resulted in access to the other tree which would give them everlasting life.

Gen 3:22-24...
“Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.” (ESV)

Disobedience is what caused them to be evicted from the garden, and access to “the tree of life” was denied, with cherubs posted as sentries to make sure that they could not re-enter their former home.
Death would then gradually engulf the human race with no way to redeem themselves.

This is where the rescue mission comes in. God provided the means to bail them out of their own predicament. Not to redeem Adam and his wife, as they sinned with no basis for forgiveness, and not a single word of remorse for what they had done. There was only resignation as they lived with the consequences of their actions. The rescue mission would save Adam’s children, born into this situation through no fault on their part. They did not get off to a good start, demonstrating the power of sin....within one generation a pre-meditated murderer was produced. And it was all downhill from then on.

The apostle Paul well describes the human condition and his hope of rescue....
Rom 7:21-25...
“So I find it to be a law that, when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched person that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I am enslaved to the law of God, but with my flesh I am enslaved to the law of sin.”



The TKGE was not a tree with poisonous fruit...and that was the test. It represented God’s Sovereign right to set the limits of the freedom that he gave them. A rather simple test of obedience. It was the only tree that God claimed as his own.

Free will was a gift but it was conditional, as was life itself. In order to keep living, the humans had to follow the rules that were set by their Creator. How many rules were there to follow? Just one. And it created no difficulty for them whatsoever. God had provided so abundantly for these humans, as he had for all the creatures that would share life with them on this planet, that there was no reason to step outside the very reasonable boundaries that he set. Everlasting life in paradise on earth was set before them, and there would have been no knowledge of evil in their lives. If you don’t know evil, you won’t practice it.

It was satan who had the plan and as a free willed son of God, he too had his loyalty and obedience tested. Only with the creation of lower, intelligent, spiritually minded creatures, could satan’s own ambitions be realised. Up to that point, Satan was one of God’s spirit sons who had a position of responsibility but not power. He was stationed in Eden as a guardian...a position that is assigned to cherubs, as we see that once the humans were evicted, cherubs were again used to guard the way back to the garden.

If you just read the story, the Bible reveals it’s own truth. It doesn’t need window dressing.
I read the story. There's no window dressing.

God planted a tree that would imbue the consumer of its fruit with the Gnosis,knowledge of good and evil,right and wrong.
Knowledge that God possessed.

He also planted a tree bearing the fruit that would imbue its consumer with eternal life.

The first tree was forbidden. Meaning Adam and Eve would remain without knowledge of right and wrong had they obeyed.
However,they did not know how to obey when met with the guile of the serpent who did have knowledge . And knew of that tree.

He led them to follow because they did not possess the mental, intellectual, capacity of discernment.
Meaning,when they didn't know right from wrong,they didn't know what it meant to obey or disobey by conscious choice.

God forbidding the tree of knowledge,intellect,means Adam and Eve were intended to live forever without intelligence. Infant consciousness for eternity.

But they were to procreate as well?

God's foreknowledge of all things precludes true free will. As he tells us often.

Jesus was the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world.

God knew they'd fall for the serpent. That's why the serpent was there. God told him about that particular tree. Which is why it was the one the serpent was in. Of all the trees,he was in the only one that could kill them.

All is planned by God. As he tells us. But we don't believe that?

The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world,just in case?
 
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