Christianity as a Closed System

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soberxp

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The Christianity should not be what we think it is or what it is, So listen to the voices of the world and see what the problem is, and I think the main problem is still, The Christianity did not follow the words of the Gospel to reflect the image of Jesus Christ, the image of God, It is the full embodiment of a human image to others.
 
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St. SteVen

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The Christianity should not be what we think it is or what it is, So listen to the voices of the world and see what the problem is, and I think the main problem is still, The Christianity did not follow the words of the Gospel to reflect the image of Jesus Christ, the image of God, It is the full embodiment of a human image to others.
Agree.
Christianity has earned the backlash for our hypocrisy.
The Christian response: "Jesus said we would be persecuted."

[
 
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Jack

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Delusion will consume you Jack. At least have the courage to be honest with yourself!
Your attacks on Jesus and Moses and Peter and other writers of the Bible aren't my delusion. They're YOURS.

You are doing exactly what Democrats do, accuse others of exactly what they themselves do.
 
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Lambano

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Jesus gave us the parable of the “wheat and the weeds” to show us who is behind the clever counterfeit that now masquerades as the genuine article. ... How do we find the “wheat” in among the “weeds”? We actually don’t....
I commend you for your application of the "wheat and weeds" parable to this situation. My quirky sense of humor wants to say that's some of the best weed-inspired theology I've read on this forum, but your response deserves better than that.
 

Lambano

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And an extension of that question is ‘who is making the definition.....and why is Christianity so splintered in the first place’?
Jesus taught one truth, so it wasn’t him who caused the disintegration. It was humans, under influence from God’s arch enemy who led men (willing dupes) in a multitude of different directions, creating a pile of broken glass that hides the real diamond.
The Bible itself tells us to find our identity as God's people; the Deuteronomy 7:6 and 2 Peter 2:9 quotes I used earlier makes that clear. And especially in the Old Testament, God's people were told to "cut off" people who did not conform to certain expectations. Paul reiterates this principle for Christians in 1 Corinthians 5:11: But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. (And I can't help but notice the ironic echo of Galatians 2:12, where Kephas wouldn't eat with uncircumcised believers.) So, the imperative to set boundaries around God's people and the "wheat and tares" (i.e. "let God sort 'em out") principle are in tension here.

So, since you are a member of a sect that is considered apostate by mainstream Christianity, and you have stated that you consider mainstream Christianity itself to be apostate: Can you consider St. SteVen a brother in Christ? How about Jack? Quietthinker? If not, what would have to change before you would consider them brothers?
 
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Jack

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Can you consider St. SteVen a brother in Christ? How about Jack? Quietthinker? If not, what would have to change before you would consider them brothers?
That might be an interesting topic! HaHa!
 
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Lambano

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Can you consider .... a brother in Christ? How about Jack? .... If not, what would have to change before you would consider them brothers?

That might be an interesting topic!

You want to start a topic, "Do you think Jack is saved?" Be my guest. @St. SteVen can show you how to do one of those poll-thingies.
 

Ronald Nolette

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As I have said often, "I was raised Protestant evangelical." --- A closed system.
Which had an odd antithetical twist. You can't DO evangelism without talking to the "lost". (those outside the closed system)
And only mature evangelicals were even allowed to do it, for fear you might be talked out of the system.

Evangelism was a "required" activity that involved talking AT the "lost", not talking WITH the "lost".
People became projects. And if the "project" seemed like a waste of time, you could
"shake the dust off your feet" (as a curse upon them) and absolve yourself of any responsibility toward them.
(their blood not being on your hands)

In preparation for talking at the "lost" projects, we were armed with Christian Apologetics. (counter-arguments)
You were bound to encounter resistance to the "message" from the closed system.
The "success" of the evangelist depended on the strength of their counter-arguments.

Much more to say about this. Everyone and everything outside the closed system was held in suspicion.
Which required negative opinions about all of those things, so as to assure keeping a safe distance.

I was wondering, how many others have had similar experiences with church, or Christianity in general?

Or...

Thoughts from those who would defend Christianity, or a church, as a closed system. Seeing value in it.
Too bad you had a lousy believing church with a bunch of man made rules instead of how God wants us to worship and do evangelism.
 

quietthinker

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We can't draw anyone to Jesus, but we can give them the message of Salvation.
The Holy Spirit has to "draw them" ...has to enlighten them.....has to open their heart.
Is there any mint and cumin left not tithed?
 

Aunty Jane

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The Bible itself tells us to find our identity as God's people; the Deuteronomy 7:6 and 2 Peter 2:9 quotes I used earlier makes that clear. And especially in the Old Testament, God's people were told to "cut off" people who did not conform to certain expectations. Paul reiterates this principle for Christians in 1 Corinthians 5:11: But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. (And I can't help but notice the ironic echo of Galatians 2:12, where Kephas wouldn't eat with uncircumcised believers.) So, the imperative to set boundaries around God's people and the "wheat and tares" (i.e. "let God sort 'em out") principle are in tension here.
In using the parable of “the wheat and the weeds” I found a clearer understanding of its implications in doing a bit of research about the “weeds” in question. These are believed to be a noxious plant that was a blight to wheat farmers in the Middle East in Bible times, and therefore familiar to Jesus’ Jewish audience.

Bearded Darnel was the plant in question which had the nick name of “wheat’s evil twin”....and for good reason. In the early growing stages it is impossible to tell one from the other......only after the plants are well established can you tell the difference, but the problem was, that by this time the root systems of both were so intertwined that they could not pull out the weeds without taking the wheat with them, so the farmer would allow them both to grow to the harvest, and then to gather the clearly distinguishable weeds, and dispose of them and then the wheat was harvested at the same time.
So similar were these plants, and so devastating were they to the farmers yield, that enemies often over sowed their neighbor’s crops to sabotage them....limiting his yield. Who is the “enemy” that Christ identified in his parable?

So taking that illustration and applying it to the history of the Christian Faith we can see clearly what has taken place, and why people did not recognise the counterfeit that was shown by the devil immediately. It was only after the establishment of the counterfeit church, that the deviation is obvious in hindsight.
What an appalling history! No wonder Jesus says of these fake Christians...”I never knew you”. (Matt 7:21-23)
 
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Aunty Jane

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So, since you are a member of a sect that is considered apostate by mainstream Christianity, and you have stated that you consider mainstream Christianity itself to be apostate: Can you consider St. SteVen a brother in Christ? How about Jack? Quietthinker? If not, what would have to change before you would consider them brothers?
From my studies, as one who was raised in Christendom, most who claim to be “wheat” in the confused rabble that is Christendom, are actually “weeds”....now clearly discernible from their conduct or ”fruits” as Jesus said.....
Matt 7:15-20....
“Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.” (NLT)

And John’s words at John 13:34-35 have a large bearing on the identity of the “wheat” as opposed to the “weeds”.

“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” (ESV)
Or as the NLT puts it...
“So now I am giving you a new commandment: Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.”

So actions speak louder than words, and it’s the conduct (fruitage) of those who claim to be followers of Jesus Christ that indict them.......as well as the response of these people to the “wheat” in the days to come.... Jesus said will be the same as it was in the first century (John 15:18-21).....but most cannot see the correlation...too lost in their own justification and theology.

One area in particular betrays them.....and that is their part in the world’s political affairs...something Jesus and his disciples clearly avoided. He told us to be “NO PART OF THE WORLD” (John 18:36)....why? Because of who is really it’s ruler. (1 John 5:19) If the “whole world” is under the devil’s control, then who is exempt?

The political situation of the Jews under Roman rule in Jesus’ day was for many, untenable. These revolutionary Jews were planning a revolt and wanted as many as possible to join them. Their defeat at Masada was devastating.

Jesus steered clear of any such action, no matter how difficult the subjugation was, and how powerless they felt under Roman rule.....Jesus pointed forward to a clear solution to all man’s woes.....not any man’s Kingdom, but God’s Kingdom. Christendom has its members fighting for their own kingdoms....and even against their own brothers in the faith.....a complete betrayal of all that Jesus taught. (Matt 5:43-44; 1 John 2:20-21)

So any person who claims to be a Christian, but who is involved in any way, even tacitly with the politics and bloodshed of the nations, is telling God that they are not disciples of Christ. Nowhere did Jesus tell us we had to be involved in the conflicts of the nations. We are not to save the world physically by using heinous weapons of mass destruction, but spiritually by the wearing of armor and the wielding of the “sword of the spirit”...God’s word which has the power to transform our thinking and make us slaves of Christ rather than slaves of our nation.

Eph 6:11-17....
“Put on all of God’s armor so that you will be able to stand firm against all strategies of the devil. For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places. Therefore, put on every piece of God’s armor so you will be able to resist the enemy in the time of evil. Then after the battle you will still be standing firm. Stand your ground, putting on the belt of truth and the body armor of God’s righteousness. For shoes, put on the peace that comes from the Good News so that you will be fully prepared. In addition to all of these, hold up the shield of faith to stop the fiery arrows of the devil. Put on salvation as your helmet, and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.” (NLT)
So our weapons are defensive...not offensive.

There are many areas of disagreement, some which we are not allowed to discuss here, but that one area alone, shows us who has faith in God’s kingdom, and who stands in support of their own nation which is part of satan’s world rulership, handed over to him to prove his claim to be the better ruler of humankind. (Luke 4:5-7; 1 John 5:19)

Another very clear identifier is 1Cor 1:10, which states.....
“I appeal to you, dear brothers and sisters, by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, to live in harmony with each other. Let there be no divisions in the church. Rather, be of one mind, united in thought and purpose.” (NLT)
Does that describe any of the churches of Christendom? Or does it even cover the ones who seem to think that they alone have the truth and everyone must listen to them because God told them so.....?

I am a member of one brotherhood that stands alone in the world as separate from all that Jesus told us to leave alone. We all believe one truth and our brotherhood is united globally, no matter what language we speak, we have no divisions or any beliefs in common with the counterfeit faith introduced by the devil “while men were sleeping” (spiritually) What grew into a complete shemozzle, is now what masquerades as Christianity....disunited and bickering with one another....and who can be seriously divided even in their politics.

If that remotely describes Christianity to you, then you are welcome to it. My brothers are no more perfect than the apostles were, but we show by our conduct that we are separate from the world....and loving towards our brothers in all nations, never divided by politics.

Our HQ gets requests for workers from among JW’s all the time, because people know that we are honest and diligent workers in a world where dishonesty and lack of work ethic are rampant. It’s not an employment agency but it shows that people can see the difference.....that the jails are not full of our brothers except where we will refuse military service or to reject any directive to stop our preaching assignment that is from a higher authority. (Matt 28:19-29; Matt 24:14)

I personally found out what kind of people Jehovah’s Witnesses are, not being influenced by those who oppose us in the same way as those of the Jewish faith opposed the disciples of Jesus...purportedly worshippers of the same God. By our conduct we prove ourselves to be Christians, not just by empty words.

I hope that answers your question.....we view all people as potential brothers and sisters, going out to the ‘lost sheep’ hoping that the truth will ring true for them, (Romans 10:14-15).....and we will continue to bring Christ’s message of salvation until they prove otherwise to God by their words and actions. We are not their judge...we are just his messengers.
 
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quietthinker

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So, since you are a member of a sect that is considered apostate by mainstream Christianity, and you have stated that you consider mainstream Christianity itself to be apostate: Can you consider St. SteVen a brother in Christ? How about Jack? Quietthinker? If not, what would have to change before you would consider them brothers?
hmmm, well according to Jack, democracy has got hairs on it and publicans can peddle as much alcohol (mind numbing) as can be consumed....ahhh, I mean re publicans. :ummm:
It seems I've found myself outside the fold of the 'faithful'. Am I to sign up to their varying mantras?

I do not smoke
Nor listen to a naughty joke
I do not drink, at pretty girls I do not wink
To dance and flirt is very wrong
Wild youths chase women, wine and song
I kiss no girls, not even one
I do not know how it is done
I don't say damn, I don't eat ham
And modern words, I call them spam
My fashion sense befits an age-
Did I forget to turn a page?
You wouldn’t think I had much fun—
I DON’T.
 
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lforrest

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Agree.
Christianity has earned the backlash for our hypocrisy.
The Christian response: "Jesus said we would be persecuted."

[
Christians are hated for our allegiance to the real Jesus, whom the world hates. Jesus is hated because the world prefers darkness. In selfishness the people of the world don't want to surrender their will, or be subject to judgement .

When the church practices Hypocrisy, does that become the reason for the world's hatred? It is written Romans 2:22-24

"22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

The people of the world hold double standards. But double standards are almost expected among them, along with dishonesty. Christians are held to a higher standard by the world, because that is what we proclaim. The world knows lies and hippcracy well. If Christians also practice it all they see is more of the same of what they already know well. If we do not offer righteousness then all we offer is judgement.
 
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David in NJ

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Christians are hated for our allegiance to the real Jesus, whom the world hates. Jesus is hated because the world prefers darkness. In selfishness the people of the world don't want to surrender their will, or be subject to judgement .

When the church practices Hypocrisy, does that become the reason for the world's hatred? It is written Romans 2:22-24

"22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

The people of the world hold double standards. But double standards are almost expected among them, along with dishonesty. Christians are held to a higher standard by the world, because that is what we proclaim. The world knows lies and hippcracy well. If Christians also practice it all they see is more of the same of what they already know well. If we do not offer righteousness then all we offer is judgement.
Thank You for the necessary reminder and encouragement.
 

David in NJ

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Christians are hated for our allegiance to the real Jesus, whom the world hates. Jesus is hated because the world prefers darkness. In selfishness the people of the world don't want to surrender their will, or be subject to judgement .

When the church practices Hypocrisy, does that become the reason for the world's hatred? It is written Romans 2:22-24

"22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

The people of the world hold double standards. But double standards are almost expected among them, along with dishonesty. Christians are held to a higher standard by the world, because that is what we proclaim. The world knows lies and hippcracy well. If Christians also practice it all they see is more of the same of what they already know well. If we do not offer righteousness then all we offer is judgement.
Curious = what type of moth and why = if you do not mind me asking
 

David in NJ

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It was sitting on the side of the Church I used to go to. Looking closely it appears to portray Jesus on it's back.
Did you capture it?

Big $$$ for anything with the face of Jesus and especially Mary for those into that stuff