Death will be no more, due to no more births.

[HealthyShape]

I am assuming you did not read my entire last post. perhaps rereading you will see how I answered this very concern. Paul never wrote a word in English, that is, Paul never wrote these words: soon, last days, time is near, quickly, shortly, etc. Translating from the NT Greek documents, there is rarely a one to one correspondence to the target language. Just like English has multiple shades of meaning for each word, so do all languages.

I am assuming you are not even reading the verses. Paul wrote:

"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come."
1 Cor. 4:5

"The time that remains is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not...For this world in its present form is passing away."
1 Cor. 7:29

..the ends of the ages have come.
1Cor 10:11

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed..."
1 Cor. 15:51

"Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1 The 4:17

"...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. "
1 The 5:23

Or, are you saying that the whole New Testament was written by Paul? Come on, let us keep this at least a bit rational.

If you are saying that the problem is in English, then no, it is not. We can talk about Greek, if you wish. Or, you can listen to biblical scholars:

“The earliest Christians expected Jesus to return within their own lifetime; Paul’s letters repeatedly reflect an urgency and imminence — ‘we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord’ — which presupposes that the end was near. It is only later, as the delay continued, that Christian thought began to develop more complex ways of theorizing and coping with the postponement.”
N. T. Wright, Paul and the Faithfulness of God (2013), p. 1077

 

[HealthyShape]

Because there are like dozen of reactions to my posts, I will ignore the rest, because I am not willing to keep so many parallel conversations about the same thing.

 

[Earburner]

The New Testament was written to be read by people, not to be read by God. Therefore our view of time was take into consideration, why would not be?

Please see Isa. 55:8-9. Because God's thoughts and ways are far different and higher than our thoughts and ways, He understood and planned how it could and should be that we would be able to understand Him.

Through our obedience to have faith in Jesus, by inviting Him into our life (John 14:23; Rev. 3:20), we are the recipients of His Holy Spirit who comes to dwell within us and therefore is our comforter and teacher of how to hear and understand the ways and thoughts of God.

Surely in this temporal mortal realm, we can all agree that none of us are perfect in our communications in God or about God.
Even by the visitation of God the Son in the flesh to usward, by the limitations of our own languages He was barely able to describe God in who He is and how He is, as Jesus KNOWS HIM.

Therefore let us all know that our communications with each other should be through "the Mind of Christ" within us and not by that which is of "the wisdom of men", the thoughts and ways of our own human mind.
1 Cor. ch. 2

 

[Davy]

Are you saying that everyone will be changed, because they have a spiritual body dwelling within them, whether they are born again of the Holy Spirit or not??

Yes, exactly.

I realize that is not what is popularly taught that Paul was showing in 1 Corinthians 15:53-54, but that's because the majority of preachers don't take what Paul said there back to the Greek.

1. Your first realization should have been what Lord Jesus said about the wicked dead resurrected on the day of His future coming, per John 5:28-29. Jesus said ALL in the graves will come forth on that day of His coming, and will go either into the "resurrection of life" (saints), or into the "resurrection of damnation" (unsaved). So HOW is it, the wicked will even have a RESURRECTION?

And what TYPE of body did Apostle Paul teach that the resurrection is per that 1 Cor.15 Chapter? A "spiritual body".


2. In 1 Cor.15:53-54, Paul used 4 DIFFERENT Greek words to define the actual "change" on the "last trump". In it is shown TWO changes that MUST happen to have eternal Life in Christ Jesus. Most preach only ONE change on that day, and that it is ONLY for Christ's saints. They haven't looked deep enough at what Paul said there.

1 Cor 15:52-53
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV

1st Change Type:
"corruptible" = Greek phthartos, and means 'decayed, perishable', about our flesh body.

"incorruption" = Greek apphthrsia, and means 'unending existence', about the "spiritual body".

AND...

2nd Change Type:
"this mortal" = Greek thnetos, and means 'liable to die', is about the condition of one's Soul.

"immortality" = Greek athanasia, and means 'deathlessness', eternal life in Christ Jesus.

(The above definitions from Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.)

Notice I put an AND conjunction in between the two sets of changes. It's because Paul said that conjunction in the Greek (kai) as he was covering TWO types of changes that must happen for the saints on that day of Christ's coming, not just ONE. That is why Paul used that "and" there in between the two changes in that 1 Cor.15:53-54 Scripture.

But for the wicked, they will ONLY experience that 1st change of their being changed from their flesh corruptible body to their "spiritual body". But having that "spiritual body" does NOT MEAN AUTOMATIC SALVATION IN CHRIST, like many preachers wrongly preach. One's MORTAL 'liable to die' SOUL must also put on immortality through Faith on Jesus Christ, i.e., the "born again" idea by The Spirit. Only those in Christ will experience that 2nd change.

The "resurrection of damnation" that Jesus mentioned on the day of His future coming per John 5:28-29 points directly to the wicked being in their "spiritual body" at their resurrection, yet their SOULS will still be in a 'liable to die' condition of being in danger of cast into the "lake of fire" at God's Great White Throne Judgment.

And per Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 5, he showed that if our flesh body were suddenly dissolved, we still have another body, not made with hands (meaning non-flesh), eternal in the heavens from God. Paul said that in the 'present' tense, like right now, not for the future day of Christ's return. Hebrew 4:12 shows that God created us with 3 parts, our spirit (the "spiritual body"), and our soul (our person), and our joints and marrow (flesh body). Our spirit and soul parts are linked together are of the heavenly dimension, non-material. That is why Paul said in 1 Cor.15:45-50 that as we have borne the "image of the earthy" (flesh), we shall also bear the "image of the heavenly" (spiritual body).

Understanding this is not that difficult. But it does require that we 'stay' with what God's Word is saying there, and not what men say with their traditions.

 

[Lizbeth]

"Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Mt 24:34

"There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Mt 16:27

"Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."
Mt 10:23

"The time that remains is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not...For this world in its present form is passing away."
1 Cor. 7:29

..the ends of the ages have come.
1Cor 10:11

Who was manifest in these last times for you
1 Pt 1:20

The end of all things is at hand.
1 Pt 4:7

It is the last hour
1 John 2:18

"Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.
The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains.
You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door."
Jm 5:7-9

But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son
Heb 1:2

Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy...because the time is near.
Rev 1:3

We are not talking about specific hour or specific day in the first century, but the NT is clear - it had to happen soon.

Amen, I think there can be no doubt that Jesus was prophesying to Israel about her coming judgment in 70 AD. It had to happen in the sovereignty and foreknowledge of God in order to "finish" the old covenant and "bring in" everlasting righteousness through the gospel/new covenant officially, when the first tabernacle (temple of the old covenant) got destroyed.

Heb 9:8
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing

But is there a principle of "to the Jew first, then the Gentile" in play? Because not only was the gospel to the Jew first, but it also says this:

Rom 2: 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Israel was judged with the wrath of God for her apostasy in 70 AD, so it is hard to think that He will overlook the apostasy of the mostly Gentile church in the Gentile nations. The Lord is no respecter of persons. And according to the scripture what happened to Israel served as an example and warning to the church.

 

[Earburner]

The idea of a any moment return of Christ is known as pre-trib. That's what you see in some of these passages. The 'end' is near is an idiom for the end could happen any moment during the Church Age.

Years ago, I once was a Pre-Tribber/Rapturist until I broke down and gave up on my own search for teachers in the majority, that sounded correct saying that the Lord could come at any moment.

In that time, I repented of all my self effort and threw myself upon God's mercy that He alone should teach me, by His word and His Holy Spirit. 1 Cor. ch.2.
For the past 45 years, ever since I discovered that the way of His leading and teaching is in the concept of Amillennial thinking, I have had no regrets in how I learn His words by His teaching and understanding through the Holy Spirit.

This one thing I confidently know, the Lord Jesus could not and CAN NOT return in all His Immortal Glory for anyone, UNTIL satan establishes his "Mark of the beast" in all the world, for buying and selling.
Please see my post #23 for more details about "the mark of the beast" and what God did do to Cain.

 

[Davy]

Amen, I think there can be no doubt that Jesus was prophesying to Israel about her coming judgment in 70 AD. It had to happen in the sovereignty and foreknowledge of God in order to "finish" the old covenant and "bring in" everlasting righteousness through the gospel/new covenant officially, when the first tabernacle (temple of the old covenant) got destroyed.

Heb 9:8
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing

But is there a principle of "to the Jew first, then the Gentile" in play? Because not only was the gospel to the Jew first, but it also says this:

Rom 2: 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Israel was judged with the wrath of God for her apostasy in 70 AD, so it is hard to think that He will overlook the apostasy of the mostly Gentile church in the Gentile nations. The Lord is no respecter of persons. And according to the scripture what happened to Israel served as an example and warning to the church.

Thing is though, the 70 A.D. judgment upon Jerusalem is a DUAL FULFILLMENT type prophecy that Jesus gave. The final destruction of a part of the city is still DUE on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns, and that... event future even to us, is what His disciples were actually asking Him about below...

Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV


Those who do not understand that God's Word contains dual-fulfillment type prophecies won't understand what I'm saying. The Isaiah 21:9 passage, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" being quoted again in Revelation 14:8 and Revelation 18:2 about the endtime beast system is an example of a dual-fulfillment prophecy.

The "vile person" event of Daniel 11 is a dual-fulfillment type Bible prophecy. In 165-170 B.C., Antiochus Epiphanes took Jerusalem with an army, went inside the Jew's temple and desolated inside the temple with sacrificing swine upon the altar and spreading its broth around inside the temple. Then he setup an altar to Zeus idol worship, and demanded that all bow to it in worship. That same type of event Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul warned about for the END in Jerusalem for the "great tribulation" timing. Lord Jesus even quoted directly from that Daniel 11 Chapter about the placing of the "abomination of desolation" which is about that idea of an idol that Antiochus had setup back in history.

This is why later in Matthew 24:32-36 Jesus commanded that we learn a parable of the fig tree, where He said the generation that SEES ALL THESE THINGS, meaning ALL of those SIGNS of the END He gave His disciples there (and us today), means even that not one stone atop another prophecy was not ONLY for 70 A.D., but also for the "day of the Lord" when Jesus will return.

 

[WPM]

Because there are like dozen of reactions to my posts, I will ignore the rest, because I am not willing to keep so many parallel conversations about the same thing.

LOL. Of course you do. Your doctrine was being torn apart above.

 

[Lizbeth]

Thing is though, the 70 A.D. judgment upon Jerusalem is a DUAL FULFILLMENT type prophecy that Jesus gave. The final destruction of a part of the city is still DUE on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns, and that... event future even to us, is what His disciples were actually asking Him about below...

Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV


Those who do not understand that God's Word contains dual-fulfillment type prophecies won't understand what I'm saying. The Isaiah 21:9 passage, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" being quoted again in Revelation 14:8 and Revelation 18:2 about the endtime beast system is an example of a dual-fulfillment prophecy.

The "vile person" event of Daniel 11 is a dual-fulfillment type Bible prophecy. In 165-170 B.C., Antiochus Epiphanes took Jerusalem with an army, went inside the Jew's temple and desolated inside the temple with sacrificing swine upon the altar and spreading its broth around inside the temple. Then he setup an altar to Zeus idol worship, and demanded that all bow to it in worship. That same type of event Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul warned about for the END in Jerusalem for the "great tribulation" timing. Lord Jesus even quoted directly from that Daniel 11 Chapter about the placing of the "abomination of desolation" which is about that idea of an idol that Antiochus had setup back in history.

This is why later in Matthew 24:32-36 Jesus commanded that we learn a parable of the fig tree, where He said the generation that SEES ALL THESE THINGS, meaning ALL of those SIGNS of the END He gave His disciples there (and us today), means even that not one stone atop another prophecy was not ONLY for 70 A.D., but also for the "day of the Lord" when Jesus will return.

Yes, I agree it is a dual prophecy.....speaking both to Israel and the church at the same time, interwoven like the woof and waffle of a tapestry. And Mystery Babylon (that great city - Jerusalem) is said to receive "double" and it says in Isaiah that Israel would receive double for her sins......so I believe, sadly, that a second fulfillment is likely due for Jerusalem too.

 

[Earburner]

Amen, I think there can be no doubt that Jesus was prophesying to Israel about her coming judgment in 70 AD. It had to happen in the sovereignty and foreknowledge of God in order to "finish" the old covenant and "bring in" everlasting righteousness through the gospel/new covenant officially, when the first tabernacle (temple of the old covenant) got destroyed.

Heb 9:8
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing

But is there a principle of "to the Jew first, then the Gentile" in play? Because not only was the gospel to the Jew first, but it also says this:

Rom 2: 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Israel was judged with the wrath of God for her apostasy in 70 AD, so it is hard to think that He will overlook the apostasy of the mostly Gentile church in the Gentile nations. The Lord is no respecter of persons. And according to the scripture what happened to Israel served as an example and warning to the church.

Yes!! As I did say, the prophecies of the scriptures in Mat. 24 began with Jerusalem in 70AD and will continue DURING the figurative 1000 years of this PRESENT Age of God's Grace through faith in Jesus.

 

[Earburner]

Yes, I agree it is a dual prophecy.....speaking both to Israel and the church at the same time, interwoven like the woof and waffle of a tapestry. And Mystery Babylon (that great city - Jerusalem) is said to receive "double" and it says in Isaiah that Israel would receive double for her sins......so I believe, sadly, that a second fulfillment is likely due for Jerusalem too.

As for Jerusalem (Zionist Israel) that now is, we may be looking at it in Rev. 6:9-11 and the 10 horns (countries) that will be appointed by the AI-Global Economic Beast system** to burn her [Israel] with fire, of which shall cause a global economic collapse. Rev. 17:16.

**Note: All Christians should perform their due diligence to understand that by 2030, the use of a Digital ID to access everything that is economic and financial will be mandatory for "buying and selling".

 

[HealthyShape]

Amen, I think there can be no doubt that Jesus was prophesying to Israel about her coming judgment in 70 AD. It had to happen in the sovereignty and foreknowledge of God in order to "finish" the old covenant and "bring in" everlasting righteousness through the gospel/new covenant officially, when the first tabernacle (temple of the old covenant) got destroyed.

Heb 9:8
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing

But is there a principle of "to the Jew first, then the Gentile" in play? Because not only was the gospel to the Jew first, but it also says this:

Rom 2: 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Israel was judged with the wrath of God for her apostasy in 70 AD, so it is hard to think that He will overlook the apostasy of the mostly Gentile church in the Gentile nations. The Lord is no respecter of persons. And according to the scripture what happened to Israel served as an example and warning to the church.

If we want to talk about the New Testament prophecies, they were meant to be fulfilled in the first century.

Regarding the Gentile nations, it is quite subjective to call a bad event (e.g. the fall of the Roman empire) a judgement. Almost all nations have some bad events and crises throughout their history.

 

[HealthyShape]

LOL. Of course you do. Your doctrine was being torn apart above.

How? Quantity of posts is not quality. If you wish, select one post in which you found it to be "torn apart" and I will react to it, but just one.

And we can have a conversation about it, then. But I am not willing to have a dozen of conversations about the same topic at once.

 

[KUWN]

If we want to talk about the New Testament prophecies, they were meant to be fulfilled in the first century.

Regarding the Gentile nations, it is quite subjective to call a bad event (e.g. the fall of the Roman empire) a judgement. Almost all nations have some bad events and crises throughout their history.

The problem with saying NT prophecies were fulfilled in the first century is the book of Revelation. Due to more discoveries of ancient Greek manuscripts, it is now known that Revelation was written after 90 AD. So, all the prophecies revealed in Rev are still future. That includes a large part of the book of Revelation.

 

[HealthyShape]

Due to more discoveries of ancient Greek manuscripts, it is now known that Revelation was written after 90 AD.

Can you be specific? What discoveries, exactly?

 

[Earburner]

If we want to talk about the New Testament prophecies, they were meant to be fulfilled in the first century.

Regarding the Gentile nations, it is quite subjective to call a bad event (e.g. the fall of the Roman empire) a judgement. Almost all nations have some bad events and crises throughout their history.

Our perspective needs to be corrected, if we are going to correctly understand Mat. 24:34, or anything at all of Mat. ch. 24.

[34] Verily I say unto you, This generation [G-1075- nation] shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled

Q. What or Which generation of people shall see all the things that are prophesied of in Mat. 24?
1. The generation/nation of natural Jews in 33 AD.?
2. Both the generations/nations of natural Jews and Gentiles in 70AD.?
3. The New generation/nation of "New creatures" since Pentecost, called the born again Saints/Christians?

The Answer is #3.
1 Peter 2
[9] But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

 

[grafted branch]

So, all the prophecies revealed in Rev are still future. That includes a large part of the book of Revelation.

In Revelation 22:18 we see the promise that God will add the plagues that are written in this book to anyone who adds to the things (in this book).

Revelation 15:1 tells us the seven angels have the seven last plagues, then Revelation 16 describes these last plagues as bowls being poured out.

If these plagues are still future events then it would seem that those who have added in the past and are now dead would have to be resurrected in order to have the plagues added to them, however I don’t know of anyone who holds the view of people being resurrected in order to experience the plagues.

How can the plagues be added to someone who is now dead if they added to the book while they were alive?

 

[Earburner]

If we want to talk about the New Testament prophecies, they were meant to be fulfilled in the first century.

Regarding the Gentile nations, it is quite subjective to call a bad event (e.g. the fall of the Roman empire) a judgement. Almost all nations have some bad events and crises throughout their history.

You are missing the point. Israel's protection was God Himself. For the sin of apostasy, Israel's sentence by God was more than destruction, it was that they would become desolate, aka void of God's presence forever, aka "even until the consummation". Dan. 9:27.
With the nation of Israel losing God's protection and presence, the worldly armies (hosts), such as the Romans, were directed by satan to invade and conquer.

 

[WPM]

How? Quantity of posts is not quality. If you wish, select one post in which you found it to be "torn apart" and I will react to it, but just one.

And we can have a conversation about it, then. But I am not willing to have a dozen of conversations about the same topic at once.

Are 40 years a short or long time to man?
Are 1000 years a short or long time to man?

 

[Davy]

Yes!! As I did say, the prophecies of the scriptures in Mat. 24 began with Jerusalem in 70AD and will continue DURING the figurative 1000 years of this PRESENT Age of God's Grace through faith in Jesus.

But that "figurative 1000 years" idea is nowhere written there. Instead, the 1,000 years idea is written as a 'literal period' that only begins at Christ's future 2nd coming, as per Revelation 20.