Does Daniel 7:21–22 Support Amillennialism or Premillennialism?

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Davidpt

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Let’s look at two key passages:

Daniel 7:21–22 (KJV)
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV)
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Here’s what I want to draw attention to:

A Rare and Powerful Connection

The exact phrase "and judgment was given" appears only twice in the entire Bible (KJV):

Daniel 7:22 – "and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High"

Revelation 20:4 – "and judgment was given unto them"

That’s not a coincidence.

Both passages:

Use the same rare phrase

Refer to the saints

Refer to judgment/vindication

Result in the saints reigning or possessing the kingdom

It is perfectly reasonable to conclude that Revelation 20:4 is picking up exactly where Daniel 7:22 leaves off.

And let’s be honest: no one — not even Amils — is going to argue that the “them” in Revelation 20:4 refers to the beast or the wicked. It's clearly the saints.

Continued....
 

Davidpt

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The OP Continued...

A Fair Question: What If Daniel 7:22 Isn’t Talking About Revelation 20:4?

To be fair, if Daniel 7:22 is NOT talking about Revelation 20:4, then yes — my entire argument falls apart. That’s a valid objection, and I acknowledge it.

But here’s the issue:

If someone claims there’s no connection between Daniel 7:22 and Revelation 20:4, then they now bear the burden of explaining:

  1. []What other event could Daniel 7:22 be referring to — where the Ancient of Days comes, judgment is given to the saints, and they possess the kingdom?
    []Why the exact same phrase “and judgment was given” is used in both places — and nowhere else in the Bible?

Without a compelling alternative, the most natural conclusion is that Daniel 7:22 is talking about the same event as Revelation 20:4 — the vindication and reign of the saints at the beginning of the millennium.

The Real Dilemma: Where Does Daniel 7:21–22 Fit in the Timeline?

Daniel 7:21 must come before Daniel 7:22. The text says:

“...the same horn made war with the saints and prevailed against them; until the Ancient of Days came...”

It’s a clear sequence: persecution → coming → judgment → kingdom

So here’s the big question:

Where does Daniel 7:21–22 fit in relation to Revelation 20:4?

If Chronology Doesn’t Matter, Then Nothing Does

If someone says, “Well, Revelation is symbolic. Chronology doesn’t matter,” then let’s test that.

What if someone claimed:
“Daniel 7:21–22 happens after Revelation 20:10–15 — after the Great White Throne judgment and the lake of fire.”​

That would be absurd — persecution of saints and the establishment of the kingdom happening after the final judgment?

No one would argue that.

But if we can’t place Daniel 7:21–22 after Revelation 20:15, then guess what?

We’ve already admitted that chronology does matter.

Continued...
 

Davidpt

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The Op Continued...

So the only real question left is: Where in Revelation 20 does Daniel 7:21–22 belong?

The 3 Options for Daniel 7:21 (Only One Works)

Here are the only three possible placements of Daniel 7:21 (the war with the saints):

1) Daniel 7:21 → Revelation 20:4 (persecution before the reign)

2) Daniel 7:21 + Revelation 20:4 (persecution and reign happening at the same time)

3) Revelation 20:4 → Daniel 7:21 (reign happens before the persecution — during Satan’s little season)


Let’s test them.

❌ Option 2: Parallel During the Thousand Years

This doesn’t work for either Amils or Premils.

Amil view: Satan and the beast are bound during the thousand years. How can the beast be waging war on the saints during that time?

Premil view: The beast is in the lake of fire during the thousand years. Again, he can’t be making war if he’s already judged.

So Option 2 fails for both camps.

❌ Option 3: Persecution Happens After the Reign

This would place Daniel 7:21 after Daniel 7:22 — but Daniel 7:22 clearly ends the persecution:

“...the same horn made war with the saints and prevailed against them; until the Ancient of Days came...”

You can’t place 7:21 after 7:22. That would violate the plain sequence of the text.

✅ Option 1: War Before the Reign

This is the only view that works:


  • Daniel 7:21 — persecution of saints
    Daniel 7:22 — judgment given to saints, kingdom possessed
  • Revelation 20:4 — saints reign with Christ for 1000 years

This view:

Honors the sequence in Daniel 7

Fits perfectly with Revelation 20:4

Doesn’t require contradictions about Satan or the beast’s location/status

The Bottom Line

If Daniel 7:22 = Revelation 20:4 (and the evidence strongly points that way), then Daniel 7:21 must come before Revelation 20:4.

That creates a serious problem for Amillennialism.

Because Amils claim Revelation 20:4 refers to the beginning of the church age, around 2,000 years ago.

So they must now explain:

What “coming of the Ancient of Days” happened 2,000 years ago to fulfill Daniel 7:22?

When did the persecution of Daniel 7:21 happen before that?

How is this consistent with Satan and the beast being bound during the 1,000 years?

Conclusion

Once you link Daniel 7:22 with Revelation 20:4 — which is the most natural reading — you’re forced to place Daniel 7:21 before it.

That timeline fits cleanly in Premillennialism.

But for Amillennialism, it breaks everything.

And unless someone can convincingly disconnect Daniel 7:22 from Revelation 20:4 (and explain why the same rare phrase shows up in both), the Premil view stands on stronger textual and chronological ground.
 
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Davidpt

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The Op is entirely my view except I used Chatgpt to basically rewrite it for me. All of the formatting is what Chatgpt supplied.
 

Truth7t7

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A Fair Question: What If Daniel 7:22 Isn’t Talking About Revelation 20:4?

To be fair, if Daniel 7:22 is NOT talking about Revelation 20:4, then yes — my entire argument falls apart. That’s a valid objection, and I acknowledge it.
Yes Dave your entire theory has fallen apart, Daniel 7:21 is referring to Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 13:7 and the (Two Witnesses are The Saints) that are overcome/prevailed against

The tough question is, will you acknowledge the very simple biblical truth before your eyes or fight against it?

(The Saints) in Revelation 13:7 are the (Two Witnesses) in Revelation 11:7, same beast making war and overcoming them (Two Witnesses/The Saints) the saints being overcome isn't the church as many falsely believe and teach

Revelation 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 13:7KJV
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Daniel 7:21-22KJV
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
 
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Davidpt

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Yes Dave your entire theory has fallen apart, Daniel 7:21 is referring to Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 13:7 and the (Two Witnesses are The Saints) that are overcome/prevailed against

The tough question is, will you acknowledge the very simple biblical truth before your eyes or fight against it?

(The Saints) in Revelation 13:7 are the (Two Witnesses) in Revelation 11:7, same beast making war and overcoming them (Two Witnesses/The Saints) the saints being overcome isn't the church as many falsely believe and teach

Revelation 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 13:7KJV
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Daniel 7:21-22KJV
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

When did I ever claim otherwise, that Daniel 7:21 is not meaning Revelation 13:7? Of course it is meaning that. How in the world does that change anything I said in the OP? Per Premil Daniel 7:21, thus Revelation 13:7, precedes the beginning of Revelation 20:4, not parallels it nor follows it instead. My position is that both Daniel 7:22 and Revelation 20:4 are meaning the same events. Daniel 7:22 is involving the thousand years since Revelation 20:4 is involving the thousand years. That would be the logical obvious conclusion to arrive at since it makes zero sense to insist both are involving the same events, the same era of time, except Daniel 7:22 is not involving the thousand years. That would equal a contradiction, thus nonsense.

And since Daniel 7:21 can't logically chronologically follow Daniel 7:22, that it must precede it, the same is true in regards to Revelation 20:4 if it involves the same events Daniel 7:22 is involving. Which clearly means Daniel 7:21, thus Revelation 13:7, precedes Revelation 20:4. That equals Premil, certainly not Amil. That cannot work with Amil since Amil has the beginning of the thousand years taking place 2000 years ago. Premil has the beginning of the thousand years following the ending of Daniel 7:21, thus Revelation 13:7. No contradictions per this scenario. Both Revelation 13:7 and Revelation 20:4 agree with the crystal clear chronology of Dan 7:21-22, that's the point.

So unless Amils can convincingly prove that Daniel 7:22 does not equal Revelation 20:4, Daniel 7:22 in light of Daniel 7:21, thus Revelation 13:7, proves Premil not Amil.
 
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WPM

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The Op Continued...

So the only real question left is: Where in Revelation 20 does Daniel 7:21–22 belong?

The 3 Options for Daniel 7:21 (Only One Works)


Here are the only three possible placements of Daniel 7:21 (the war with the saints):

1) Daniel 7:21 → Revelation 20:4 (persecution before the reign)

2) Daniel 7:21 + Revelation 20:4 (persecution and reign happening at the same time)

3) Revelation 20:4 → Daniel 7:21 (reign happens before the persecution — during Satan’s little season)


Let’s test them.

❌ Option 2: Parallel During the Thousand Years

This doesn’t work for either Amils or Premils.

Amil view: Satan and the beast are bound during the thousand years. How can the beast be waging war on the saints during that time?

Premil view: The beast is in the lake of fire during the thousand years. Again, he can’t be making war if he’s already judged.

So Option 2 fails for both camps.

❌ Option 3: Persecution Happens After the Reign

This would place Daniel 7:21 after Daniel 7:22 — but Daniel 7:22 clearly ends the persecution:

“...the same horn made war with the saints and prevailed against them; until the Ancient of Days came...”

You can’t place 7:21 after 7:22. That would violate the plain sequence of the text.

✅ Option 1: War Before the Reign

This is the only view that works:


  • Daniel 7:21 — persecution of saints
    Daniel 7:22 — judgment given to saints, kingdom possessed
  • Revelation 20:4 — saints reign with Christ for 1000 years

This view:

Honors the sequence in Daniel 7

Fits perfectly with Revelation 20:4

Doesn’t require contradictions about Satan or the beast’s location/status

The Bottom Line

If Daniel 7:22 = Revelation 20:4 (and the evidence strongly points that way), then Daniel 7:21 must come before Revelation 20:4.

That creates a serious problem for Amillennialism.

Because Amils claim Revelation 20:4 refers to the beginning of the church age, around 2,000 years ago.

So they must now explain:

What “coming of the Ancient of Days” happened 2,000 years ago to fulfill Daniel 7:22?

When did the persecution of Daniel 7:21 happen before that?

How is this consistent with Satan and the beast being bound during the 1,000 years?

Conclusion

Once you link Daniel 7:22 with Revelation 20:4 — which is the most natural reading — you’re forced to place Daniel 7:21 before it.

That timeline fits cleanly in Premillennialism.

But for Amillennialism, it breaks everything.

And unless someone can convincingly disconnect Daniel 7:22 from Revelation 20:4 (and explain why the same rare phrase shows up in both), the Premil view stands on stronger textual and chronological ground.
Why not tell everybody before you present this that this is AI generated? You do not need a Bible or the Holy Spirit anymore.
 
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WPM

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Let’s look at two key passages:





Here’s what I want to draw attention to:

A Rare and Powerful Connection


The exact phrase "and judgment was given" appears only twice in the entire Bible (KJV):

Daniel 7:22 – "and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High"

Revelation 20:4 – "and judgment was given unto them"

That’s not a coincidence.

Both passages:

Use the same rare phrase

Refer to the saints

Refer to judgment/vindication

Result in the saints reigning or possessing the kingdom

It is perfectly reasonable to conclude that Revelation 20:4 is picking up exactly where Daniel 7:22 leaves off.

And let’s be honest: no one — not even Amils — is going to argue that the “them” in Revelation 20:4 refers to the beast or the wicked. It's clearly the saints.

Continued....
Daniel 7:21-22: I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”

Daniel 7:21-22 relates to the persecution of the Roman Empire on the early church and the widespread martyrdom that attended that. They correlate that with Revelation 20 and the depicted victory that marks those who die in Christ during this current era. Amillennialists believe Revelation 20 starts at the first resurrection and shows an ongoing period of victory for the saints over sin, death, the beast and Satan. The saints that survived this awful persecution continued to reign in supernatural power as the kingdom of God invaded the nations. The Gospel could not be stopped. The fire of Revival spread from nation to nation as the Church executed the great commission. Despite the unprecedented opposition, the heathen Gentile world began to embrace the truth in their millions. As kings and priests, the Church carried authority. Revelation 20 depicts even the dead in Christ reign in power and victory. They are shown to possess the kingdom of God and exercise judgement over the kingdom of darkness.
 

Truth7t7

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My position is that both Daniel 7:22 and Revelation 20:4 are meaning the same events. Daniel 7:22 is involving the thousand years since Revelation 20:4 is involving the thousand years.
Daniel 7:22 represents the final judgment, and the kingdom they possess is the forever, even forever and ever kingdom seen in Daniel 7:18 "The Eternal Kingdom" not a mortal 1,000 year kingdom on this earth as you suggest

The second coming and final judgement is seen in Daniel 7:9-10 and repeated in Daniel 7:22, problem is your trying to create a temporary mortal 1,000 year kingdom on this earth in Daniel Chapter 7:22 and it doesn't exist in the contextual reading, it's nothing more than the future second coming and final judgement seen

Daniel 7:8-22 & Revelation 11:7-18 are parallel events of the two witnesses being overcome/prevailed against, the second coming and final judgement

Daniel 7:18 and Revelation 11:15 is the same event in the forever, even forever and ever kingdom "Eternal", your temporary mortal 1,000 year kingdom on this earth is non-existant, and its found no place in scripture

Daniel 7:8-22KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


Revelation 11:7-18KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
 

Truth7t7

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Daniel 7:21-22 relates to the persecution of the Roman Empire on the early church and the widespread martyrdom that attended that.
"No it doesn't" it relates to the future literal (Two Witnesses) seen in Revelation 11 being overcome and killed by (The Beast) and the future final judgement, just as post #9 clearly explains above

Your problem is you follow reformed theology that denies two literal future prophets returned, and it symbolizes the literal into symbolic allegory

Reformed theology also denies a future literal human man that will be (The Beast) in a physical body Daniel 7:11 "His Body Destroyed" and they remove the future literal with more symbolic allegory
 
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Davidpt

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Why not tell everybody before you present this that this is AI generated? You do not need a Bible or the Holy Spirit anymore.

What straw man are you pulling on me now? Don't you comprehend the difference between using Chatgpt as a tool in regards to a writing assistant vs one getting their theology from Chatgpt? Maybe some of you don't need a writing assistant, so to speak. That doesn't mean the same might be true of everyone. I wouldn't even be using Chatgpt as a writing assistant to begin with, so to speak, if it was not for the fact that I lost count of how many times someone has complained I'm hard to follow at times. Where I then assumed it was likely because I wasn't communicating my thoughts well enough. Even @Spiritual Israelite agreed that for me to use Chatgpt as a writing assistance, so to speak, is a good idea not a bad idea. But you want to turn it into a straw man and make it be something it isn't.
 

Davidpt

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Daniel 7:21-22 relates to the persecution of the Roman Empire on the early church and the widespread martyrdom that attended that.

Why do you even bother arguing against Preterism, lol, when you are obviously as much a Preterist as they are, meaning in some cases, not all cases? Revelation 13:7, which is obviously involving what Daniel 7:21 is involving, is meaning the 42 month reign of the beast in the final days of this age. What you are going on about does not equal the 42 month reign of the beast in the final days of this age. It equals Preterism in this case.
 

WPM

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What straw man are you pulling on me now? Don't you comprehend the difference between using Chatgpt as a tool in regards to a writing assistant vs one getting their theology from Chatgpt? Maybe some of you don't need a writing assistant, so to speak. That doesn't mean the same might be true of everyone. I wouldn't even be using Chatgpt as a writing assistant to begin with, so to speak, if it was not for the fact that I lost count of how many times someone has complained I'm hard to follow at times. Where I then assumed it was likely because I wasn't communicating my thoughts well enough. Even @Spiritual Israelite agreed that for me to use Chatgpt as a writing assistance, so to speak, is a good idea not a bad idea. But you want to turn it into a straw man and make it be something it isn't.
No. That is the source of your argument. Why not be honest with everyone? That is what you're building your whole theology on. You can make chat GPT say whatever you want. It all depends on the way you word it.
 

WPM

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Why do you even bother arguing against Preterism, lol, when you are obviously as much a Preterist as they are, meaning in some cases, not all cases? Revelation 13:7, which is obviously involving what Daniel 7:21 is involving, is meaning the 42 month reign of the beast in the final days of this age. What you are going on about does not equal the 42 month reign of the beast in the final days of this age. It equals Preterism in this case.
I am a partial preterist, a futurist and a historist when Scripture demands it. You're not going to put me in your faulty Premil box.
 

Davidpt

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Daniel 7:22 represents the final judgment, and the kingdom they possess is the forever, even forever and ever kingdom seen in Daniel 7:18 "The Eternal Kingdom" not a mortal 1,000 year kingdom on this earth as you suggest

Per my thinking, from my perspective, that if Revelation 20:4 equals Daniel 7:22, it then means that the beginning of the millennium is when these things begin to be fulfilled. And that the millennium is simply the first thousand years of the never ending NHNE.

Yes, and I know, even Premils disagree with me here. But so what? As if they have room to talk, where they have 2 different new heavens and new earths per their thinking. One in Isaiah 65 another one in Revelation 21-22, and that these are not referring to the same NHNE according to them.

Per your thinking, you are insisting that Daniel 7:22 does not equal Revelation 20:4 to begin with. That it's only a coincidence that this same exact phrase 'and judgment is given' only shows up in two places in the entire Bible, but there is nothing to see here. That no one is trying to tell as something here.
 

Davidpt

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As to the OP.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years


IF, and everyone already knows what an 'if' implies, Daniel 7:22 = Revelation 20:4, all of the following have to be considered and factored in. While at the same time, IF Daniel 7:22 does not = Revelation 20:4, none of these things matter that I'm about to bring up below. They are pointless, only if Daniel 7:22 does not = Revelation 20:4. But if Daniel 7:22 = Revelation 20:4, in that case all of the following have be considered and factored in.

1) Daniel 7:22 involves a coming of the Ancient of days that has to be explained. And actually it already is explained in Daniel 7 itself, verses 9-11. Many interpreters insist Revelation 20:11-15 is in view in verses 9-11. But are they correct to conclude that? Maybe, maybe not. One thing in their favor is this---and the books were opened--that this matches what Revelation 20:12 records. But is that the only place books are ever opened? What about the following? Meaning what is recorded in Revelation 5?

Granted, that account only involves the opening of one book rather than multiple books. Yet the following appears to maybe match---meaning Revelation 5:11 and comparing it with Daniel 7:10.

Daniel 7:10 thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him----Revelation 5:11 and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.

Assuming there is a connection here, is anyone going to argue that in Revelation 5, Revelation 20:11-15 is what is in view? Keeping in mind that some are arguing that in Daniel 7:9-11, it is Revelation 20:11-15 that is what is in view.

IOW, one can't argue that Daniel 7:9-11 matches some of Revelation 5, but that Revelation 5 does not match any of Revelation 20:11-15, yet Daniel 7:9-11 matches Revelation 20:11-15, since that is absurdly confusing, thus contradictory to do so.

2) The main thing that needs to be factored in IF Daniel 7:22 = Revelation 20:4, is this. Meaning Daniel 7:21. That it must precede The fulfilling of Daniel 7:22, period, nothing to dispute, nothing to debate. Which then means it must precede the fulfilling of Revelation 20:4 per this scenario. That of course adds up to Premil not Amil.
 

Truth7t7

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Per my thinking, from my perspective, that if Revelation 20:4 equals Daniel 7:22, it then means that the beginning of the millennium is when these things begin to be fulfilled. And that the millennium is simply the first thousand years of the never ending NHNE.

Yes, and I know, even Premils disagree with me here. But so what? As if they have room to talk, where they have 2 different new heavens and new earths per their thinking. One in Isaiah 65 another one in Revelation 21-22, and that these are not referring to the same NHNE according to them.

Per your thinking, you are insisting that Daniel 7:22 does not equal Revelation 20:4 to begin with. That it's only a coincidence that this same exact phrase 'and judgment is given' only shows up in two places in the entire Bible, but there is nothing to see here. That no one is trying to tell as something here.
You completely ignore my presented scripture as if it's non-existant "Why"?

Daniel 7:9-10 shows tha ancient of days coming in final judgement "The Books Were Opened" Daniel 7:22 repeats the same ancient of days coming and final judgment, it's that simple

Daniel 7:22 has absolutely "Nothing" to do with Revelation 20:4, no second coming or final judgement is seen in Revelation 20:4 and you know it, as you try desperately to create and justify a 1,000 yr mortal kingdom on this earth "False"

Does Daniel 7:22 show the coming of the ancient of days and judgement 100% yes? this isn't a 1,000 year mortal kingdom on this earth and you know this, as you completely "Avoid" answering the question presented and supported by scripture, will you run in avoidance again and again?

Daniel 7:22 represents the final judgment, and the kingdom they possess is the forever, even forever and ever kingdom seen in Daniel 7:18 "The Eternal Kingdom" not a mortal 1,000 year kingdom on this earth as you suggest

The second coming and final judgement is seen in Daniel 7:9-10 and repeated in Daniel 7:22, problem is your trying to create a temporary mortal 1,000 year kingdom on this earth in Daniel Chapter 7:22 and it doesn't exist in the contextual reading, it's nothing more than the future second coming and final judgement seen

Daniel 7:8-22 & Revelation 11:7-18 are parallel events of the two witnesses being overcome/prevailed against, the second coming and final judgement

Daniel 7:18 and Revelation 11:15 is the same event in the forever, even forever and ever kingdom "Eternal", your temporary mortal 1,000 year kingdom on this earth is non-existant, and its found no place in scripture

Daniel 7:8-22KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


Revelation 11:7-18KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
 
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Zao is life

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The Op is entirely my view except I used Chatgpt to basically rewrite it for me. All of the formatting is what Chatgpt supplied.
I knew that Preterists, Partial Preterists and Amillennialists who feel the need to are immediately going to do this:

1. Attack you for using ChatGPT - even though it was only to write what you wanted to write in a clearer format.

2. Assert that Daniel 7:21 = Nero.

But that means that Revelation 11:15-19 has already been fulfilled. Preterists & Partial Preterists will assert that it occurred in 70 A.D, but the rest of the Amillennialists who disagree with them about that, will just get everything confused and be dancing around the scriptures again trying to get them to comply with Amilennialsm.

And that's already happened in this thread.

But to me it's so clear (note that Daniel 7:19-22 are explained in Daniel 7:23-27):

Daniel 7:21 & 25 = Revelation 11:7; 13:7: The beast's war against the saints of the Most High.
Daniel 7:22 & 26 = Revelation 19:20 - beast destroyed (there's NO "beast" being spoken of in Revelation 20:7-9); and verse 10 of Revelation 20 says:

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Daniel 7:27 = Revelation 11:15:

"And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign to the ages of the ages."

The souls John saw in Revelation 20:4 are identified by the text as those who did not worship the beast or receive his mark on their right hands or on their foreheads.

Revelation 11:11-12
= Revelation 20:4:

"And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.:

Daniel speaks about what leads to it here:

"I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom." (Daniel 7:21-22).

And it's explained here:

"And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him." (Daniel 7:25-27).

I believe (IMO) the foreshadow of the 4th beast and of the end time is Antiochus IV Epiphanes but he did not complete the time of the end but he became a forerunner (type).

Amills will ritually dance around on these passages like they're walking on hot coals. They have to. And it's already started in this thread.
 
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Zao is life

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You completely ignore my presented scripture as if it's non-existant "Why"?

Daniel 7:9-10 shows tha ancient of days coming in final judgement "The Books Were Opened" Daniel 7:22 repeats the same ancient of days coming and final judgment, it's that simple

Daniel 7:22 has absolutely "Nothing" to do with Revelation 20:4, no second coming or final judgement is seen in Revelation 20:4 and you know it, as you try desperately to create and justify a 1,000 yr mortal kingdom on this earth "False"

Does Daniel 7:22 show the coming of the ancient of days and judgement 100% yes? this isn't a 1,000 year mortal kingdom on this earth and you know this, as you completely "Avoid" answering the question presented and supported by scripture, will you run in avoidance again and again?

Daniel 7:22 represents the final judgment, and the kingdom they possess is the forever, even forever and ever kingdom seen in Daniel 7:18 "The Eternal Kingdom" not a mortal 1,000 year kingdom on this earth as you suggest

The second coming and final judgement is seen in Daniel 7:9-10 and repeated in Daniel 7:22, problem is your trying to create a temporary mortal 1,000 year kingdom on this earth in Daniel Chapter 7:22 and it doesn't exist in the contextual reading, it's nothing more than the future second coming and final judgement seen

Daniel 7:8-22 & Revelation 11:7-18 are parallel events of the two witnesses being overcome/prevailed against, the second coming and final judgement

Daniel 7:18 and Revelation 11:15 is the same event in the forever, even forever and ever kingdom "Eternal", your temporary mortal 1,000 year kingdom on this earth is non-existant, and its found no place in scripture

Daniel 7:8-22KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


Revelation 11:7-18KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Revelation 11:11-12 = Revelation 20:4. Those souls in Revelation 20:4 are identified as those who did not worship the beast or receive is mark in their right hands or in their foreheads.

There's no "beast" in Revelation 20:7-9. Only Satan. Daniel 7:22 & 26 = Revelation 19:20.

The kingdom is given to Daniel's saints after the destruction of the beast, and Revelation's saints reign with Christ after the destruction of the beast. They are identified as those who did not worship the beast or receive is mark in their right hands or in their foreheads.

Unfortunately you cannot change the scripture. It was written before your confusion.
 

Davidpt

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You completely ignore my presented scripture as if it's non-existant "Why"?

Maybe because I have some arguments of my own that I tend to think might trump some of your arguments. Such as.

Let me try and be a bit clearer here, regardless whether you want to agree or not.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


Until the Ancient of days came---this is meaning the following for one--Revelation 19:11-21.

But that is only a portion of verse 22. There is more, such as this---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High---meaning this in Revelation 20:4---And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them

Then there is also this in verse 22---and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom---meaning everything recorded in Revelation 20:4, that that is what marks when the time has come for the saints to possess the kingdom. Not only does Revelation 20:4 mark the beginning of that time, so does Revelation 11:15 mark the beginning of when the saints possess the kingdom. Obviously, when the time comes that they possess the kingdom, it can't precede the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

And that in Premil thinking, not Amil thinking, the 7th trumpet marks the beginning of the thousand years once the beast and it's armies are dealt with first and are never among the living upon the earth ever again(Revelation 19:20-21). Not to mention, the sheep and goats judgment also marks the beginning of when the saints take possession of the kingdom.

After all, it does say the following, for one--, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world(Matthew 24:34). If that it is not a clear example of taking possession of the kingdom, what is it a clear example of? IMO, The sheep and goats judgment match both Revelation 11:18 and Revelation 19:21, yet is not involving Revelation 20:11-15 at this point.

IOW, the sheep and goats judgment is only involving OSAS and NOSAS within the body of Christ, the church. The sheep being the profitable servants within the church, the goats being the unprofitable within the church. Unlike the GWTJ where no one is depicted as standing on His right vs standing upon His left, and each group as a whole answering Jesus in the same manner. No one is doing anything like that in Revelation 20:11-15, answering Jesus in the same manner, as if they have been divided into 2 groups.

Here is how the goats as a group answer Jesus.

Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?


Imagine someone such as Cain standing among the goats and he too answering Jesus in this same manner? Then shall Cain also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw I thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Come on now, seriously, that makes sense of the text exactly how???